Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Tobi_Whatever]

We can finally nAir Link's shield! Yey!
Also uAir might be amazing in the neutral now. Like even more than before.

 

[NeoSeth]

Making shields less powerful of an options seems to nerf our biggest weakness (shield pressure), so I'm going to theorize this is a buff for us. I'm a bit more worried about Shiek now though lol.

 

[NickRiddle]

THERE WAS A CHANGE IN THE SHIELD STUN FORMULA INCREASING IT! We need to find out how much this affects our safety on shield.

Calling Dr. Tuen

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ooooh, this is exciting! Ah, I'm still trying to get a PhD over here in Oregon-town, but I have some time tomorrow evening. Hopefully by then the global change is quantified (maybe it already is, I just got here today), and I'll hash it out!

Also, @Dantarion seems to have done a dump of the data and did a comparison. ZSS did receive some hitbox changes. If I knew... what ANY of this meant I'd help... (downattackd? downattacku? They deal 7%, so maybe uptilt?). Also, "escapeair" changed, which makes me wonder if there's a change for air dodges in here somewhere.

 

[Trifroze]

Nerf her to the ground
Just give me back Brawl d-smash
plz&ty

The face when 1.1.1 hits and dsmash gets nerfed

The shieldlag got almost entirely removed. It's -7 after shield drop now, used to be -3. If it wasn't for the shieldstun change it'd be -10 or -11.

 

[NickRiddle]

Looking like a Universal air-dodge and BRoll nerf of 1 frame.
Hitbox changes are hype, maybe utilt can hit lower.

Woah, just looked at d-smash on shield...
Eww, that is punishable af now...

 

[Trifroze]

Nair, uair and bair are now all + after shield drop and ftilt spaced is safe on a lot of characters. The tip of side b is safe on everyone but the fastest midrange punishers, although still no buff on its damage so you'll be hard pressed to find many uses for it over zair.

Because of the way the shieldstun formula works I'm pretty sure nair is now equally safe to Sheik's perfectly autocanceled fair. Bair is ridiculously safe, probably like +3 or +4.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ah... what?

How did you guys reach this conclusion about down smash? Numerically, it comes out as being safe on shield in ALL scenarios outside being close enough for a shield grab. Are experimental results not agreeing with that assessment?

I read into the changelog thread a little. Her down smash just... lost shield lag frames? How does a move even lose something like that? Hum.

 

[Trifroze]

Well it couldn't be punished by DK's f5 jab before. Now it can be punished by Ganon's f8 jab.

 

[Honor]

So shielding is now less safe for everyone it sounds like?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Whelp. Damn. I mean, I'll look at it some more in frame advance when I get home for funsies.

Anyways. Here's neutral air. (I know I should be working, but I couldn't help myself!)

So yeah, looking at the first image, any nair outside of grab range isn't really punishable outside corner case circumstances... that I can't think of right now? Maybe Mii Brawler OoS upB2. Since it has such great side-to-side mobility and is reasonably quick.

Also, frame syncing is the bomb. On early hit (near-miss perfect shield), you can grab your opponent. For free. LoL! Though it's not within the realm of human detection and reaction for us to see and respond to that happening. Still, it's one frame safer than when I assumed the 1.5x multiplier was removed (I was wrong then, but this turned out better).

Oh, and for reference...

 

[Dr. Tuen]

OK. Double post, I know. This deserves it.If a

Sweet. Mother. Of. God. Look at this back air data. LOOK AT IT.

Let's put it this way: to punish a spaced back air, the responding move must be able to jump cancel out of a shield drop (up smashes, up Bs) and come out in 2 frames. Most grabs don't come out that fast! Jump in, back air, jump back out might be completely untouchable. Just... bair to win man. Bair to win.

I can't wait to look at our arsenal. Short timing (2 frame windows), high damage moves. These are going to benefit radically from this universal change.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Duuuuuude that's some crazy advantage.
I can't wait to actually play against someone and test this stuff.

 

[BatShark]

I'm excited by some of the positive implications of this patch but...

Anyone else concerned that we're going to be getting our OOS Up B's blocked all the time now?

And is shield grab with our grab startup pretty much out of the question vs. almost everything?

 

[Peahnuts]

TFW I can no longer reference NickRiddle 's punishing Sheik with ZSS video like a bible anymore haha.

 

[Honor]

I'm excited by some of the positive implications of this patch but...

Anyone else concerned that we're going to be getting our OOS Up B's blocked all the time now?

And is shield grab with our grab startup pretty much out of the question vs. almost everything?

Has anybody tested this yet? That's kinda a terrifying thought

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Has anybody tested this yet? That's kinda a terrifying thought

Seems to be an inevitable result of this patch. If everyone else's shield options suffer, so do ours. We have one of the fastest OoS options in the game though, so it's still usable on certain hits. Determining which moves we can do this on, however... that's a much more difficult assessment.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So uAir is amazing now in the neutral. This is a game changer. We don't even need to space anymore to be safe from grabs.
EDIT: Eeeeeeh actually we still do, but we can be a little bit more sloppy. Just try to hit low enough.

 

[NeoSeth]

Up-air was always insane. Once I incorporated that I got a lot of free punishes off of low U-airs on shield. The shieldstun buff excites me tremendously.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I made charts for up air, though at this point I'll save it for updating my ZSS vs Shield post. TL;DR - Up air generates the same advantage back air does. Because of landing lag differences, it produces 1 less frame of advantage than back air when frame synced. Still... if we could figure out how to frame sync these things consistently... we could threaten grabs off of them. Or at least, throw it out to scare people into jumping or dodging (which, if you space it right, are their ONLY options... and what happens when you reduce options to 1? WINNING).

Here's what we should be looking at: Paralyzer Bullet Advantage. It gains up to 5 extra frames of shield stun. It already benefits from ZSS not taking hitlag too. Unfortunately, bullet flight time, distance, ZSS dash speed, etc are all factors at play here. I'll look into measuring some of this soon.

Also, ftilt produces 2 frames of advantage for your opponent on shield drop... if they have all their shield lock frames. If not, they get 9 frames of advantage on shield drop. This means that shielding ftilt will sometimes yield the advantage necessary to respond with a dash grab. But sometimes it won't. It's an awkward 50/50 now.

 

[David Viran]

Ayy lmao zss's nair, Bair, and uair are -3 natural oos. Our own up b oos can't even punish these moves.

 

[Shaya]

Uhmm, I just noticed that our down throw got changed.
Anyone notice how and what?

We did probably get a nerf afterall?
It's still same data as before but it's a different method call.
except towards the end (I think it's new params)

, -0x3fe00000, 0x40800000, 0x0

-0x3FE0... doesn't make sense, but nevertheless something here.
Usually I associate this with the hitbox being moved while it's active.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Uhmm, I just noticed that our down throw got changed.
Anyone notice how and what?

We did probably get a nerf afterall?
It's still same data as before but it's a different method call.
except towards the end (I think it's new params)

, -0x3fe00000, 0x40800000, 0x0

-0x3FE0... doesn't make sense, but nevertheless something here.
Usually I associate this with the hitbox being moved while it's active.

Dunno, while training yesterday I did our BnB as usual multiple times and dThrow > bAir still worked on bots even at kill percent.

 

[Shaya]

Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air | [-27,-33] | [-19,-25] | -2 | 10
Forward Air 1 | [-34,-35] | [-27,-28] | -11 | 4
Forward Air 2 | [-23,-24] | [-16,-17] | -10 | 4
Back Air | [-21,-22] | [-14,-15] | -2 | 5
Up Air | [-14,-20] | [-7,-13] | -2 | 4
Down Air | [-12,-47] | [4,-31] | -24 | 4
Dair Landing | [-22,-23] | | | -3
Grab Air Sour | [-37,-46] | [-38,-47] | -4 | 6
Grab Air Sweet | [-34,-34] | [-35,-35] | -2 | 7

Yeah... zero suit samus nair is 10 frames safer on shield.

 

[c23lui]

@Nairo you should take a look at this and try to implement the new info into your playstyle...


P.S.: Best of luck to you at TBH5 !!
Naifu 4 laifu.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i was about to shift my playstyle away from nair, thats pri nice. zair 6-7 frames safer HOLY ****. waiting for some juicy paralyzer calcs

 

[pichuthedk]

@Nairo you should take a look at this and try to implement the new info into your playstyle...


P.S.: Best of luck to you at TBH5 !!
Naifu 4 laifu.

He can't because they are using 1.1.0 IIRC, after having watched Esam's first impressions on the patch.

 

[NeoSeth]

Uhmm, I just noticed that our down throw got changed.
Anyone notice how and what?

We did probably get a nerf afterall?
It's still same data as before but it's a different method call.
except towards the end (I think it's new params)

, -0x3fe00000, 0x40800000, 0x0

-0x3FE0... doesn't make sense, but nevertheless something here.
Usually I associate this with the hitbox being moved while it's active.

I've been unable to notice any differences when using it. Everything seems to connect properly still, so idk what exactly changed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Nairo you should take a look at this and try to implement the new info into your playstyle...

Pretty sure TBH will be using 1.1.0

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air | [-27,-33] | [-19,-25] | -2 | 10
Forward Air 1 | [-34,-35] | [-27,-28] | -11 | 4
Forward Air 2 | [-23,-24] | [-16,-17] | -10 | 4
Back Air | [-21,-22] | [-14,-15] | -2 | 5
Up Air | [-14,-20] | [-7,-13] | -2 | 4
Down Air | [-12,-47] | [4,-31] | -24 | 4
Dair Landing | [-22,-23] | | | -3
Grab Air Sour | [-37,-46] | [-38,-47] | -4 | 6
Grab Air Sweet | [-34,-34] | [-35,-35] | -2 | 7

Yeah... zero suit samus nair is 10 frames safer on shield.

OK. So... I like to pretend I know things about shields sometimes, but often I don't. Here's the part where I don't. What does "full action" mean? Your original, and locked, thread says it's the full animation while staying in the air... but do you mean until the actual entire animation is over? That would make neutral air 51 frames.

Similarly, I know what an auto cancel is, but I don't know what these numbers represents here. The first hit of neutral air is on frame 10 and it has 10 frames of landing lag. Hitlag is equal between parties, shield stun is like 8 frames...

Even more basic. What's a negative number mean, what's a positive number mean? I'm guessing that a negative number is disadvantage, since it wouldn't make sense for fair to yield 11 frames of advantage.

Also, "full action" and "auto cancel" have two numbers that have varying gaps based on the move. Is this the number of varying frames present that depend on shield lock? In the old patches, that'd make all those gaps 7 frames long (or was it 8?), but now that shield lock overlaps with shield stun, it's a different story.

Also, what does "landing" encompass? Is it landing + shield drop, or no?

So yeah... I don't know what most of this means. I want to know what it means though. Assistance would be helpful, and clear definitions for these numbers and what they represent would really help me understand the significance of what you have found.

 

[Shaya]

Neutral Air has two hitboxes with the same properties besides their frames, for the sake of not having 500 lines for each character, it's considering that it hits on frames 10 and 11, and frames 15 and 16.
i.e. a range of frames 10 to 16 [7 frames of duration]
And the value there is the range of disadvantage from hitting at the earliest or latest, with shield stun. 51 - 16 - new shield stun value = what you see.

I do not consider shield lock whatsoever.

Landing is just shield stun minus landing lag.

And you're right, they would.

But it is literally convoluted; if one doesn't have a solid understanding of all the various aerial states/frame data theory... it requires a lot of explanation. I've been; lazily (or more so struggling to contemplate a succinct explanation) with it because everyone would be at a different layer/level.
My scope/paradigm is different to how information has been produced thus far (in my opinion it's been generally disgusting/misleading), so I feel double conflicted in how I would need to reverse current standard ignorance* while having simple definitions of things that wouldn't require me to personalize every explanation for each individual that asks (which will and has been a lot of people, every time).

*People not understanding auto cancels, people throwing shield drop numbers into everything to confuse others (as in "out of shield" is now bastardized), people not getting attacks have hitbox duration, people not knowing how shields work, end frames/iasa/FAF, etc etc etc

I know it's paradoxical to release information and not have it be easily understood. But I feel like it's throwing someone into the deep end to understand this if you didn't understand frame data already. People I know who understand data don't necessarily get it instantly either, but those are people I need less than sentence for to get them on the same page as I am...
And this probably doesn't all apply to you but it's why I've kept myself away from definitions/explanations because it's going to require extra explaining no matter what I say.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Neutral Air has two hitboxes with the same properties besides their frames, for the sake of not having 500 lines for each character, it's considering that it hits on frames 10 and 11, and frames 15 and 16.
i.e. a range of frames 10 to 16 [7 frames of duration]
And the value there is the range of disadvantage from hitting at the earliest or latest, with shield stun. 51 - 16 - new shield stun value = what you see.

I do not consider shield lock whatsoever.

Landing is just shield stun minus landing lag.

And you're right, they would.

But it is literally convoluted; if one doesn't have a solid understanding of all the various aerial states/frame data theory... it requires a lot of explanation. I've been; lazily (or more so struggling to contemplate a succinct explanation) with it because everyone would be at a different layer/level.
My scope/paradigm is different to how information has been produced thus far (also poorly and lazily), so I feel double conflicted in how I would need to reverse current ignorance* while having simple definitions of things that wouldn't require me to individually personalize every explanation for each individual that asks (which will be a lot of people, every time).

People not understanding auto cancels, people throwing shield drop numbers into everything to confuse others, people not getting attacks have hitbox duration, people not knowing how shields work, etc etc etc

Thanks for the info. I ask because... Well, interestingly, I've been working on something similar. But I've also been trying to make an automatic data parsing tool that could rip from Kuroganehammer and update when the game does.

Organization of data versus completeness has also been a concern.... With multiple timings, sweet and sour spot hit boxes, shield lock, power shields, etc.

As you noted, presentation of data is tough too. I figured a large introductory article would be needed. But thorough enough presentation would preempt some lines of questioning.

Anyways, I asked about all that so I might check myself against you. Inter Rater reliability is good, after all. If I'm too late to present it to the community, I'll at least have my own database. Which will be calibrated to quickly tell me the responses ZSS has on the whole cast :-). I wonder if that's legal to have at tournaments...

 

[pichuthedk]

Ugh Those posts above have me relucant to ask my question regarding nair on shield after the patch ha ha xD.
<-- Unfortunately a 6 year old when it comes to understanding frame data and the other important things involved with it.

=[

 

[David Viran]

Ugh Those posts above have me relucant to ask my question regarding nair on shield after the patch ha ha xD.
<-- Unfortunately a 6 year old when it comes to understanding frame data and the other important things involved with it.

=[

Let's put it this way if you nair shield you can potentially spot dodge any shield grab in the game. Actually you can jab any shield grab attempt before it comes out. We can't even punish nair on shield with our own up oos.

 

[pichuthedk]

Let's put it this way if you nair shield you can potentially spot dodge any shield grab in the game. Actually you can jab any shield grab attempt before it comes out. We can't even punish nair on shield with our own up oos.

Hmmmm I was kind of wondering along the lines of.

Can I purposely miss space a ff nair to bait a shield grab and just JC Up -b right away and beat their grabs if they don't PS.
I kinda feel like seeing if it can be abused early before people get used to the increased shield stun.

Also wondering if there's a combo we can't do to peoples shields now with flip jump kick to Crack some eggs...I mean Shields
<-Salty at some yoshi's =[.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ugh Those posts above have me relucant to ask my question regarding nair on shield after the patch ha ha xD.
<-- Unfortunately a 6 year old when it comes to understanding frame data and the other important things involved with it.

=[

Always ask questions! Even if it just re-directs you to a resource... well, now you have a resource! You can feel free to PM me anything you want to ask and I'll do my best to answer. If I know, that is. I get really bugged by tiny details... even 1 frame details... so sometimes I get 95% of the way there and will still respond "I don't know" because I don't know 100%.

Anyways. Yeah, the above comments got it. Neutral air rocks the casbah.

 

[Shaya]

I think the feasibility of us being no.1 in the game (or not measurably worse than Sheik) is pretty high right now.
Nair being overly safer now (9 frames), zair being a lot safer now (7 frames), side-b being better (can't roll between hits now I think; it may be electric too just can't find the hitboxes), , paralyzer being SEVEN frames safer on shield no matter the scenario...

Sheik got like 2-3 frame buffs, while zss got close to 10 frame buffs on things. We're awesome.

 

[Otterz]

I think the feasibility of us being no.1 in the game (or not measurably worse than Sheik) is pretty high right now.
Nair being overly safer now (9 frames), zair being a lot safer now (7 frames), side-b being better (can't roll between hits now I think; it may be electric too just can't find the hitboxes), , paralyzer being SEVEN frames safer on shield no matter the scenario...

Sheik got like 2-3 frame buffs, while zss got close to 10 frame buffs on things. We're awesome.

Sigh, Now I'm gonna have to explain that I was a ZSS main before the patch.

But really this patch is beautiful.

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS got so much better from this patch, it's actually insane.

 

[Champ Gold]

I did a perfect flip kick spike on a Fox in FG. Felt so satisfying and was one of my best moments.

I hope I made you proud, Peahnuts