Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Shaya]

WiiU release we had our air dodge landing lag normalized and up smash start up increased by 2? frames.

 

[David Viran]

WiiU release we had our air dodge landing lag normalized and up smash start up increased by 2? frames.

1 frame. It went from 9 -> 10.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Do we have solid, or even numerical estimates, for the workable % range for the B&B combo?

I'm starting to work on finding rough numbers for all characters. It seems that dthrow, uair, uair, boost kick works in a small 15%-ish range, but dthrow, uair, jump, boost kick works for an additional 20-30%. This based on the 2 characters I've completed. If there's interest, I'll complete that and post my numbers. Otherwise... I may still do it as practice for the B&B combo, heh.

No we don't, and imo we do need them.
That's why I asked for a formula or something including rage and staleness if you can remember.
Because without it, it would be pretty pointless.

 

[Trifroze]

Lab notes:

From around nair range or closer: zair -> dash -> jc boost kick is definitely a thing, especially on fast fallers, and might be a legit follow up to fish for at mid-high percents. Nair does the same thing but it's less safe on powershield, comes out 1 frame slower and can be DI'd so that up b isn't guaranteed. Hit confirming isn't that hard since you can probably react to the shieldstun and even if not, you can just jump back immediately after buffering your dash or do something wacky out of it.

Also how hard is it to put a rage switch onto training mode and give the player their separate damage setting? Would make so many things so much easier.

EDIT: Zair does come out 1 frame faster than nair but what I didn't realize is that it takes a few frames to extend, so at nair range it probably hits on frame 10 or 11 despite coming out at 9.

 

[KingChaos]

What character archetype would Zss fit in? I am thinking bait and punish or a cross between that and rush down.

 

[Trifroze]

Zoning and punishing is what she excels at more than anything, and she can sort of do rushdown as well because of her speed and follow ups. Would definitely say zoning/punishing though if that combination is a thing, although I'm not sure how bait/punish differs from that, but I don't think she needs to bait anything because she can just safely throw out attacks on the opponent's shield from a distance until they do something and then she punishes them. Maybe someone has additional input though.

 

[ComeT____]

I agree and her neutral air is a great way to space if you need to.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

No we don't, and imo we do need them.
That's why I asked for a formula or something including rage and staleness if you can remember.
Because without it, it would be pretty pointless.

Neat. I've begun this work, though at some higher percents, I can only get it to work 10% or less of the time. I might make an intermediate threshold where this works most of the time versus the absolute max percent I ever get it to work at. Those thresholds may be useful since DI will definitely make this harder to do.

 

[NeoSeth]

Could I see a video demonstration or maybe get linked to a more in-depth description of the "hype kick?" I've been labbing it out pretty seriously but I'm starting to think I'm not doing it quite right.

 

[Take 5]

Could I see a video demonstration or maybe get linked to a more in-depth description of the "hype kick?" I've been labbing it out pretty seriously but I'm starting to think I'm not doing it quite right.

/shamelessplug

Note that this is Hype Kick I (Hype Kick II is an inward kick towards the ledge).

 

[NeoSeth]

/shamelessplug

Note that this is Hype Kick I (Hype Kick II is an inward kick towards the ledge).

Oooooh. Going off of an earlier post, I've been practicing flipping off the ledge and kicking out, not running off and flipping back.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Oooooh. Going off of an earlier post, I've been practicing flipping off the ledge and kicking out, not running off and flipping back.

Both is ledgit.

 

[Sovereign]

Knew nothing about using Flip Kick that way. Has there been testing on more characters?

 

[Trifroze]

Works on everyone although much easier to do on predictable or slow recoveries. The ledge vulnerability is 2 frames though, I don't know why everyone is still calling it 1.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Works on everyone although much easier to do on predictable or slow recoveries. The ledge vulnerability is 2 frames though, I don't know why everyone is still calling it 1.

Hey I didn't know that

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Could I see a video demonstration or maybe get linked to a more in-depth description of the "hype kick?" I've been labbing it out pretty seriously but I'm starting to think I'm not doing it quite right.

Heyo! This video contains two examples of the Hype Kick II, one at 1:17, the other at 3:43. Like previously described, it's a flip kick that starts on stage and kicks inward. The benefit: you have a longer range of time to kick. The Hype Kick I give you an approximate 7 frame range to nail your opponent, and you must accurately predict this with your preparatory flip. The Hype Kick II allows you to kick at ledge height or as low as 1 body length under the stage. This yields an approximate 30 frame range to get your hit, and is adjustable at will. This also means you don't NEED to hit that 1 (2?) frame vulnerability range, you can hit well before it if the chance arises.

Haha, I love that the name is catching on!

 

[NeoSeth]

Heyo! This video contains two examples of the Hype Kick II, one at 1:17, the other at 3:43. Like previously described, it's a flip kick that starts on stage and kicks inward. The benefit: you have a longer range of time to kick. The Hype Kick I give you an approximate 7 frame range to nail your opponent, and you must accurately predict this with your preparatory flip. The Hype Kick II allows you to kick at ledge height or as low as 1 body length under the stage. This yields an approximate 30 frame range to get your hit, and is adjustable at will. This also means you don't NEED to hit that 1 (2?) frame vulnerability range, you can hit well before it if the chance arises.

Haha, I love that the name is catching on!

I promise to call it the Hype Kick from now until the end of time. Isn't it untechable if it stages spikes like it does at 1:17? There're windows when you can't tech because of hitstun, and I'm pretty sure that fits within that radius.

 

[NeoSeth]

Also, is there unique follow-up potential from single hit fair? I've been labbing with it a bit but I can't seem to get anything that's better than a Nair; the landing lag on fair is just a bit too much to let you capitalize on the low knockback.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I promise to call it the Hype Kick from now until the end of time. Isn't it untechable if it stages spikes like it does at 1:17? There're windows when you can't tech because of hitstun, and I'm pretty sure that fits within that radius.

Also, is there unique follow-up potential from single hit fair? I've been labbing with it a bit but I can't seem to get anything that's better than a Nair; the landing lag on fair is just a bit too much to let you capitalize on the low knockback.

As a note, try to edit your posts instead of double posting.

Otherwise, have some answers!

1. The Hype Kick II runs the risk of being teched, for sure. In the case where people slide up walls to sweet spot the edge, you may get the un-techable version, but some come from the outside... like if you used it to intercept Fox's side B, or if you managed to intercept bouncing fish. Those would likely be techable, since they may not be touching the wall and could try to DI into it. If you are on Battlefield or Smashville...? Ehhh, not great chances. Long-walled Omega stages or Duck Hunt stage? Much better odds for a tech. It's a reasonable trade off for a move that's otherwise a 1 hit KO.

2. Single hit fair hits foes at a low trajectory, and often leads to a tumble into the ground. This can be teched, yielding no follow up without a read. However! If there is no tech, you can follow with a jump nair, or a dash up boost kick, or a dash up down smash (i think), or a dash up tilt.

 

[David Viran]

I promise to call it the Hype Kick from now until the end of time. Isn't it untechable if it stages spikes like it does at 1:17? There're windows when you can't tech because of hitstun, and I'm pretty sure that fits within that radius.

No, the opponent has to literally be hugging the wall for it to be untechable. Hanging on the ledge actually isn't close enough either for it to be untechable.

 

[Peahnuts]

Nairo did the jankiest Hype Kick II in Winners Finals of Paragon to clutch it out. Wow.

 

[Champ Gold]

@Nairo THIS MAN IS STRAIGHT KILLIN AND BEASTIN.

THE WAIFU MASTER DOIN IT GOOD. AND THAT FIRST COMBO ON THAT FINAL SET, YES!!!!!!!!!


No, I don't need to calm down

 

[David Viran]

Congrats to @Nairo for winning paragon.

 

[Take 5]

Relive the moment in all of its glory:

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2015090723023222

 

[Peahnuts]

Relive the moment in all of its glory:

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2015090723023222

I didn't notice Sky's head popping through until just now lol... also Hype Kick II confirmed untechable in top competitive play kappa.

 

[Trifroze]

I have no idea if this is old news or not since I haven't followed this topic for a long time, but I've heard talk of ZSS' bnb and rage so I played around with it a bit, nothing too precise but confirmed some interesting things.

At mid rage (100%) your opponent basically needs to have half the usual percent for it to properly connect (i.e. 20-25% vs 40-50% on Mario), and this way it works just like normally.

At max rage the opponent needs to be at about 10-25% depending on their weight, but it won't work normally vs most characters because it's impossible to connect with the up b properly as they either fly too far up after the second uair, or at lower percents they are able to airdodge before the up b. In the first scenario it works if they try to DI away however because that makes them stay closer to you vertically. More importantly though, on low ceiling stages even if the opponent doesn't DI away and goes too high for the up b to properly connect, they will die from the couple hits of up b that do connect because of how far up they get launched from it. Light characters like Rosalina, Fox and Sheik die like this even on omega.

So with rage this is actually even more dirty killing opponents from 15%, but then again whether you want to go for a grab at 150% or not is another question (zair to grab etc though). Tested this with a fresh dthrow in not-training-mode, so freshness shouldn't be an issue and staling makes it easier. Nair -> grab -> dthrow -> uair -> uair -> up b might be a 0 to death combo on some very light characters.

EDIT: Yeah rip Rosalina and everyone below if they choose not to DI away on the initial dthrow.

 

[CatStache]

I'm still hyped about that z air lol

 

[Shaya]

Zair stock tally:
Nairo - 1
Shaya - 200


I still want to properly somehow kill with side-b in a way that another move wouldn't have been better. The journey never ends.

 

[NickRiddle]

Dakpo was telling me he kills with zair all the time.

 

[Shaya]

Kill moves out of every orifice.

 

[NickRiddle]

But only bair and Boost Kick matter 99% of the time~

 

[David Viran]

And uair even tho it's stale most of the time.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Dunno, imo flip kick is more important now as kill option than it used to be.
Nairo successfully used both hype kicks in GF against Dabuz. It's also a legit dSmash followup and can be combo'd into out of nAir at around 70.

 

[NickRiddle]

I forget about that move when I'm not playing, sorry.

 

[Peahnuts]

Yeah I almost flip kick exclusively out of dsmash at kill percent. Against Mario and Sheik the punish on an upB that doesn't fully connect is too risky lol.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah I almost flip kick exclusively out of dsmash at kill percent. Against Mario and Sheik the punish on an upB that doesn't fully connect is too risky lol.

Yeah, IMO it's less risk more reward compared to uSpecial and can potentially kill much MUCH earlier if you get the spike at 50 or something.

 

[Otterz]

Does anyone have a gif of the FAF (First Active Frame) after a whiffed grab so that I can show it to people that think we're 2nd in the game?

 

[Trifroze]

Does anyone have a gif of the FAF (First Active Frame) after a whiffed grab so that I can show it to people that think we're 2nd in the game?

I have this:

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Does anyone have a gif of the FAF (First Active Frame) after a whiffed grab so that I can show it to people that think we're 2nd in the game?

We have a frame data compendium (link in my signature, so long as my edits to that worked). Though in short, here are the numbers you seek:

GRAB FAFs
Standing Grab: 69
Dash Grab: 72
Pivot Grab: 80

Fun note! Falcon Punch takes 53 frames to come out. Our grab is active on frame 16 (or 17 for pivot grab). So a Captain Falcon main can jump over the active part of our grab and FALCON PUNCH as a response in all 3 cases. So... you know... don't get predictable...

EDIT - Man, for all the things I know, I know next to nothing about when signatures actually show up in posts. The link to our frame data is in this hyperlink. Alternatively, the work by @KuroganeHammer can be seen in this hyperlink.

=====


ALSO!

I'm working on an appropriate methodology for measuring the percents that the b&b combo (and its variants) work at. I've done preliminary testing in training mode, but the freshness modifier and lack of stale moves and rage hinder my ability to get decent numbers.

My current thought is to get rough values from training mode and move to smash mode for finalization... however, I need to figure out how to indicate a failed combo. I believe an turbo controller may be required for this. I may be able to force a combo fail confirm by turning the shield button on turbo... though "jump" may be a better response for combo escapes. I'd also have to use ZSS' jab 1 to increment damage on the foe appropriately. A custom stage with lava surfaces and a large cannon (to fire ZSS safely to and from the magnifying glass area) will help increment her damage for rage measurements.

I am also looking into testing key cases (Jigglypuff, Mario, Bowser, C. Falcon; different fall speeds, effectively) to possibly gain an understanding that yields a general viability equation. I'm less confident in this method, but the research required aligns with another project I've got going, so if it works that's great.

If anyone has ideas on how to test this without a turbo controller, let me know.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

We have a frame data compendium (link in my signature, so long as my edits to that worked). Though in short, here are the numbers you seek:

GRAB FAFs
Standing Grab: 69
Dash Grab: 72
Pivot Grab: 80

Fun note! Falcon Punch takes 53 frames to come out. Our grab is active on frame 16 (or 17 for pivot grab). So a Captain Falcon main can jump over the active part of our grab and FALCON PUNCH as a response in all 3 cases. So... you know... don't get predictable...


=====


ALSO!

I'm working on an appropriate methodology for measuring the percents that the b&b combo (and its variants) work at. I've done preliminary testing in training mode, but the freshness modifier and lack of stale moves and rage hinder my ability to get decent numbers.

My current thought is to get rough values from training mode and move to smash mode for finalization... however, I need to figure out how to indicate a failed combo. I believe an turbo controller may be required for this. I may be able to force a combo fail confirm by turning the shield button on turbo... though "jump" may be a better response for combo escapes. I'd also have to use ZSS' jab 1 to increment damage on the foe appropriately. A custom stage with lava surfaces and a large cannon (to fire ZSS safely to and from the magnifying glass area) will help increment her damage for rage measurements.

I am also looking into testing key cases (Jigglypuff, Mario, Bowser, C. Falcon; different fall speeds, effectively) to possibly gain an understanding that yields a general viability equation. I'm less confident in this method, but the research required aligns with another project I've got going, so if it works that's great.

If anyone has ideas on how to test this without a turbo controller, let me know.

Eheheh you're running into the same issues as I did when I tried to test the BnB percentages.
I hope you're more stubborn than I was.
And yes, I bought a turbo controller to get stuff done with my feet.