Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[T-Loc]

BnB on Sheik starts at 32%. Everything before that can be airdodged.

lol I literally just asked you about this in the dthrow kill % thread, but I'll repeat it here for ease. Are you sure? I've been pretty successful with it against real players and it comes up as a combo at 23% with good timing/spacing & w/out DI in the 3DS.

 

[SilentGhost]

So,.... against a level 9 cpu, I was able to land the full combo against shiek at 16%, killing off the top without the finisher. This was with 90% rage. It seems to me that you guys are forgetting to take rage into account ( testing in training mode will give false results). Although high rage allows the opponent to DI the throw up to avoid the first uair, most don't and so dthrow > uair works until ~ 100% rage. I don't know how well it works on humans, but the combo definitely starts earlier than 30% if you have rage.

I can't test against a human opponent easily, but I remember a FG match where I killed a Ryu at 22%.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Do we have a list of percents the BnB starts and end at for each character? Does your number account for left/right DI?

No I haven't
DI is not the problem at low percent, hitstun is. Yes it works at 32% no matter the DI, but if they DI away you need to fastfall before the second uAir.

lol I literally just asked you about this in the dthrow kill % thread, but I'll repeat it here for ease. Are you sure? I've been pretty successful with it against real players and it comes up as a combo at 23% with good timing/spacing & w/out DI in the 3DS.

At 31% second uAir > uSpecial is not a combo any more.
If you do dThrow > turnaround uAir you can combo the uAir longer, but I can't get the uSpecial to work.
If you can make it work earlier please show some kind of proof, it would be great if we could get it to work better.

So,.... against a level 9 cpu, I was able to land the full combo against shiek at 16%, killing off the top without the finisher. This was with 90% rage. It seems to me that you guys are forgetting to take rage into account ( testing in training mode will give false results). Although high rage allows the opponent to DI the throw up to avoid the first uair, most don't and so dthrow > uair works until ~ 100% rage. I don't know how well it works on humans, but the combo definitely starts earlier than 30% if you have rage.

I can't test against a human opponent easily, but I remember a FG match where I killed a Ryu at 22%.

Yes it works earlier with rage, I was testing everything in training mode.

We really need to find a method to calculate the correct percentages.
Like lab them in training and find a formula for both staleness and rage that we can apply to shift the percentages around.
@ Dr. Tuen you're the numbers guy here, any ideas? Do you think this might be possible?

 

[SilentGhost]

Here is melee's formula for hitstun: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/. This lacks rage and correct character weights at the very least, but it gives a decent starting point. Hitstun is directly proportional to knockback. Assuming rage is just a knockback multiplier, it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

We really need to find a method to calculate the correct percentages.
Like lab them in training and find a formula for both staleness and rage that we can apply to shift the percentages around.
@ Dr. Tuen you're the numbers guy here, any ideas? Do you think this might be possible?

Ooooh, I'm the numbers guy. Sounds catchy.

I have a few projects up in the air that'll help this out, but they're still in development (see: some months) and not ready yet.

The issue is actually tricky, if you want to get exact answers for the reasons you have stated: rage and stale moves. I'm thinking that a table like see in Section 3 of Marth's frame data page could be a good place to start. Revamping our frame data page to be more like this is one goal of mine after I graduate.

I'll need to know more about how rage works and such before I can get a definitive answer, but that'll come in time. Weight will matter too, so it very well may be a good idea to just lab it out with all characters... though that would make updating with patches. I'll give it more thought.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Ooooh, I'm the numbers guy. Sounds catchy.

I have a few projects up in the air that'll help this out, but they're still in development (see: some months) and not ready yet.

The issue is actually tricky, if you want to get exact answers for the reasons you have stated: rage and stale moves. I'm thinking that a table like see in Section 3 of Marth's frame data page could be a good place to start. Revamping our frame data page to be more like this is one goal of mine after I graduate.

I'll need to know more about how rage works and such before I can get a definitive answer, but that'll come in time. Weight will matter too, so it very well may be a good idea to just lab it out with all characters... though that would make updating with patches. I'll give it more thought.

Yeah something like the Marth page would be great.
I'd lab some percentages out but doing this alone is near damn impossible.
The only reason it's doable alone in training is the reset button and settable percentages.

 

[SilentGhost]

I put a little effort into measuring the effect of rage. Judging by the launch speed stat, rage appears to be a maximum of 1.15 multiplier, scaling approximately linearly from 30 to 150.

Data:
Attacker Percent | 0 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 80 | 100 | 125 | 150 | 200 | 300
Launch Speed | 37 | 37 | 38 | 38 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 43 | 43 | 43
Rage Multiplier | 1 | 1 | 1.027 | 1.027 | 1.027 | 1.054 | 1.081 | 1.108 | 1.162 | 1.162 | 1.162

The launch speed is always a multiple of 13.4, so I divided the launch speed by that to give a sense of the inaccuracy.

EDIT: I made a spreadsheet that estimates a combo range with rage: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k32i_MKPcPvMlV4pOgMNfrYRYuXSbuFfSafBR3jBFHQ/edit?usp=sharing (use File -> Download As).

This does not take into account stale moves. To use, fill in the combo start and end percent with 0 rage, attack damage, target weight, KBG, BKB, and the percent you want to calculate the combo range for.

The attack stats are for the first move of the combo, e.g. for dthrow > uair, you would fill in values for dthrow.

I'm definitely not giving any guarantees that this works, but it provides a sensible estimate. Formula for knockback was taken from the Marth frame data page.

 

[T-Loc]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20bgw4iae0amk0n/20150823_112945_001.mp4?dl=0

Took a pummel more than I thought, but definitely combo'd earlier than 32%. Strangely, I can't perform the combo on its own by just setting the %'s to 25 and attempting the vanilla dthrow>uair>uair>upb.


EDIT: Ok I think I figured out what's going on. Pummeling seems to actually allow you to perform the combo MUCH earlier. I can perform the vanilla combo on Sheik from as low as 23% easily if I pummel once before the DThrow.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20bgw4iae0amk0n/20150823_112945_001.mp4?dl=0

Took a pummel more than I thought, but definitely combo'd earlier than 32%. Strangely, I can't perform the combo on its own by just setting the %'s to 25 and attempting the vanilla dthrow>uair>uair>upb.


EDIT: Ok I think I figured out what's going on. Pummeling seems to actually allow you to perform the combo MUCH earlier. I can perform the vanilla combo on Sheik from as low as 23% easily if I pummel once before the DThrow.

Holy hell this is huge
Just to make sure we need to test if the training mode isn't at fault here
but holy **** dude

I somehow can't get it to work on Wii U.
At least not consistently

 

[David Viran]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20bgw4iae0amk0n/20150823_112945_001.mp4?dl=0

Took a pummel more than I thought, but definitely combo'd earlier than 32%. Strangely, I can't perform the combo on its own by just setting the %'s to 25 and attempting the vanilla dthrow>uair>uair>upb.


EDIT: Ok I think I figured out what's going on. Pummeling seems to actually allow you to perform the combo MUCH earlier. I can perform the vanilla combo on Sheik from as low as 23% easily if I pummel once before the DThrow.

Wait a minute so your saying pummeling makes the bnb combo work better. What other combos could this affect?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Wait a minute so your saying pummeling makes the bnb combo work better. What other combos could this affect?

Try it first on Wii U, for me it only works like every 5th try.

It only works if you do the dThrow directly after the pummel
My uneducated guess is that the hitstun somehow gets added to the dThrow.
I can't imagine how else it's supposed to work

Forget everything, I just got it to work at 25% without pummel. Seems like it's extremely dependant on where we hit with our uAir.

 

[Xelion]

Wait what about DI? Does it matter as much in this combo?, I haven't had much time to try it out myself, I've been working on other characters.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Wait what about DI? Does it matter as much in this combo?, I haven't had much time to try it out myself, I've been working on other characters.

You can get the BnB at 25% to work but DI completely screws it up. Stick to 32% for lighter characters if you have low rage and 35 for heavier characters for it to land for sure.

 

[T-Loc]

You can get the BnB at 25% to work but DI completely screws it up. Stick to 32% for lighter characters if you have low rage and 35 for heavier characters for it to land for sure.

Yeah 32% is definitely the best bet for sheik. They can still mess it up with good DI right after the throw though so it's not at all guaranteed. It seems so strange though, I can consistently get the string to work on the ds. I guess there's a little more different between the two systems than stage sizes

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah 32% is definitely the best bet for sheik. They can still mess it up with good DI right after the throw though so it's not at all guaranteed. It seems so strange though, I can consistently get it to work on the ds. I guess there's a little more different between the two systems than stage sizes

It is if you don't **** up. If they DI down and away you need to FF before the second uAir.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Fun timing practice: go to an omega stage on training, set sheik to 82% near the edge. Back air. A little over half the time (DI dependent) the computer will recover in a way that requires up b. The computer also tends to snap to the ledge at that point. Note: the other half of the time, sheik will DI in a way that allows a double jump recovery.

So why is that cool? I used it to practice the hype kick II, and it totally works. The only problem... you have to predict the up B. The timing seems to need you in the air a handful of frames before sheik starts up b. So... it might be better for predicting bouncing fish.

Either way, a fun exercise. I may try it with Pikachu and see if a timing can be found there.

 

[Shaya]

My rough rage formula for figuring out certain things.
X = [No rage] % the move achieves desired action (e.g. marth's up throw koing at 180%, tipper jab comboing into fsmash at 154%)
Y = [Attacker % - 40*] (e.g. 100% = 60, 150% = 110; for quickness on the spot I just think 50 or 100)

X - (Y/X * 1/100)

So Marth up throw at 100/150% rage
(180 - (60/1.8) [180 - 33% = 147%]
(180 - (110/1.8) [180 - 61% = 119%]

* Rage start point is somewhere between 35 and 39% I believe.

So for not only killing, but with the percent tipper jab will go into fsmash is roughly similar too. Tipper jab into tipper fsmash at full rage is like 80%.

(At some point the fraction/ratio of 100% gets flipped to requiring multiplication [look at something killing at 100% at 0% rage and full rage in comparison])

 

[Dr. Tuen]

So, I'm really grinding out this hype kick thing versus computers in training mode. Turns out, pausing the game while they are off stage will stop the computer's actions and force it to recover low, more like a real player might. It still won't pick options like bouncing fish or flip kick, but it's better for practice on up B vs the 1 frame edge vulnerability.

In doing so, I discovered a tech about flip kick, momentum, and the c-stick. It's tough to explain, but I'll give it a go:

• Flip kick's momentum can be effected by the c-stick input.
• Flip kick's kick direction will always be inside the arc when directed by the c-stick.
• When set to "smash," the c-stick's kick direction overrides the control stick's kick direction
• When set to "attack," the control stick's kick direction overrides the c-stick's kick direction
• Regardless of which stick overrides the other, they both play a role in the momentum ZSS experiences after the kick

Here's how this all comes together. With c-stick set to attack, and ZSS facing right near the right edge... do this:

Down B --> hold left (shortens the arc of flip kick) --> Control stick RIGHT, c-stick LEFT

This turns the kick outward (rightward), and prevents your momentum from flinging rightward. It allows for outward flip kick with less risk of screwing your recovery. It's useful for the "hype kick" because some recoveries can come from wide angles (Rosalina, Ganondorf) that can be missed by the inward angled kick. But turning the kick out puts her toes right on their face. It's quite nice.

Conversely, with c-stick set to smash, your momentum AND kick direction are dominated by the c-stick. When flip kicking right, it allows for an inside kick that still FLINGS rightward, as if you had missed an outward turned kick.

Even when not used for this edge guard method I'm seeking, it'll potentially make flip kicking safer overall. By preventing flinging momentum, any whiffed kick will result in returning to the edge more quickly and more safely. Putting you back in the match, where you need to be.


EDIT - One more thing! The hype kick II works on Ness, and it DOES NOT TRADE HITS. If his only option is to recover toward the edge, start your flip on the "T" of "THUNDER," and he's screwed. This is the best ever.

 

[Shaya]

I use flip jump momentum shenanigans on default kicking to sometimes recover high above the clouds, from the blast zone to when you come out of lag you can drift almost half the stage length in.

But yeah, flip jump momentum shenanigans are cool =)

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So, I'm really grinding out this hype kick thing versus computers in training mode. Turns out, pausing the game while they are off stage will stop the computer's actions and force it to recover low, more like a real player might. It still won't pick options like bouncing fish or flip kick, but it's better for practice on up B vs the 1 frame edge vulnerability.

In doing so, I discovered a tech about flip kick, momentum, and the c-stick. It's tough to explain, but I'll give it a go:

• Flip kick's momentum can be effected by the c-stick input.
• Flip kick's kick direction will always be inside the arc when directed by the c-stick.
• When set to "smash," the c-stick's kick direction overrides the control stick's kick direction
• When set to "attack," the control stick's kick direction overrides the c-stick's kick direction
• Regardless of which stick overrides the other, they both play a role in the momentum ZSS experiences after the kick

Here's how this all comes together. With c-stick set to attack, and ZSS facing right near the right edge... do this:

Down B --> hold left (shortens the arc of flip kick) --> Control stick RIGHT, c-stick LEFT

This turns the kick outward (rightward), and prevents your momentum from flinging rightward. It allows for outward flip kick with less risk of screwing your recovery. It's useful for the "hype kick" because some recoveries can come from wide angles (Rosalina, Ganondorf) that can be missed by the inward angled kick. But turning the kick out puts her toes right on their face. It's quite nice.

Conversely, with c-stick set to smash, your momentum AND kick direction are dominated by the c-stick. When flip kicking right, it allows for an inside kick that still FLINGS rightward, as if you had missed an outward turned kick.

Even when not used for this edge guard method I'm seeking, it'll potentially make flip kicking safer overall. By preventing flinging momentum, any whiffed kick will result in returning to the edge more quickly and more safely. Putting you back in the match, where you need to be.


EDIT - One more thing! The hype kick II works on Ness, and it DOES NOT TRADE HITS. If his only option is to recover toward the edge, start your flip on the "T" of "THUNDER," and he's screwed. This is the best ever.

This might be pretty good for edge cancel stuff too because it's much more precise and we need the outward kick to do it properly.

@ Shaya I was actually getting wrong numbers until I realized you meant X - (Y/(X * (1/100)))
Also try calculating it for our dThrow for BnB at lets say 40 with 150 rage, you get a negative number.
(40 - (110/0,4) [40 - 275% = -235%]

 

[SilentGhost]

I decided to post this again, because I'm not sure if people noticed it.

Here's a tool for figuring out combo ranges/kill percents with rage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k32i_MKPcPvMlV4pOgMNfrYRYuXSbuFfSafBR3jBFHQ/edit?usp=sharing

This seems to give a good estimate. According to it, BnB starts at 24% instead of 32% against Sheik if you have 100% rage.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I decided to post this again, because I'm not sure if people noticed it.

Here's a tool for figuring out combo ranges/kill percents with rage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k32i_MKPcPvMlV4pOgMNfrYRYuXSbuFfSafBR3jBFHQ/edit?usp=sharing

This seems to give a good estimate. According to it, BnB starts at 24% instead of 32% against Sheik if you have 100% rage.

At the risk of making myself look like a ******, what the hell do I do with this? It's read only...

 

[SilentGhost]

At the risk of making myself look like a ******, what the hell do I do with this? It's read only...

You have to download it in whichever format you want (File -> Download as). The only way I know of to allow everyone to edit it would have it change for everyone who is trying to access it.

 

[Shaya]

At sub 100% it's closer to:
A = 1 - X%
RAGE = 0..1 (ratio of point between 40-150)

x * (A * RAGE)

But honestly after further inspection it's probably way off all over the shop at sub 100% values.

In other news... getting stronger at frontal wavebouncing with paralyzer. Not only is there drifting in and moving backwards, there's also drifting away and suddenly speeding in while facing forwards as well. Honestly pretty spooky....

Hit someone with a retreating aerial; "oh no" > teleport in with paralyzer.
Sh forward with near instant retreating is pretty grand.

It is a lot easier to do in the air than on the ground as I may have mentioned. Means I'm doing the inputs before you can cancel your run into specials :V

Also I think this is an amazing tech covering option, as you may not know for certain someone's going to land into the ground directly after a hit and usually an immediate tech into shield options will beat grab and dash attack may go over it/is generally unrewarding.
But hah ha, suddenly, wavedash backwards paralyzer covers tech rolling forward, get up and some of the really bad roll aways (or near a ledge, juicy). Although I'm not sure how option selecty this is, but if you were to use side-b over Slide waving paralyzer if they tech roll away, that will hit them [as in, regular flying forward side-b]. This may be a reactable choice to make tbqh.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

At sub 100% it's closer to:
A = 1 - X%
RAGE = 0..1 (ratio of point between 40-150)

x * (A * RAGE)

But honestly after further inspection it's probably way off all over the shop at sub 100% values.

In other news... getting stronger at frontal wavebouncing with paralyzer. Not only is there drifting in and moving backwards, there's also drifting away and suddenly speeding in while facing forwards as well. Honestly pretty spooky....

Hit someone with a retreating aerial; "oh no" > teleport in with paralyzer.
Sh forward with near instant retreating is pretty grand.

It is a lot easier to do in the air than on the ground as I may have mentioned. Means I'm doing the inputs before you can cancel your run into specials :V

Also I think this is an amazing tech covering option, as you may not know for certain someone's going to land into the ground directly after a hit and usually an immediate tech into shield options will beat grab and dash attack may go over it/is generally unrewarding.
But hah ha, suddenly, wavedash backwards paralyzer covers tech rolling forward, get up and some of the really bad roll aways (or near a ledge, juicy). Although I'm not sure how option selecty this is, but if you were to use side-b over Slide waving paralyzer if they tech roll away, that will hit them [as in, regular flying forward side-b]. This may be a reactable choice to make tbqh.

Well this certainly helps against aggro roll ins people tend to spam against ZSS' SHs if they try to play more reactive.
Also note to myself: do more uSpecial after close laser hits.

 

[Remzi]

So, I'm really grinding out this hype kick thing versus computers in training mode. Turns out, pausing the game while they are off stage will stop the computer's actions and force it to recover low, more like a real player might. It still won't pick options like bouncing fish or flip kick, but it's better for practice on up B vs the 1 frame edge vulnerability.

In doing so, I discovered a tech about flip kick, momentum, and the c-stick. It's tough to explain, but I'll give it a go:

• Flip kick's momentum can be effected by the c-stick input.
• Flip kick's kick direction will always be inside the arc when directed by the c-stick.
• When set to "smash," the c-stick's kick direction overrides the control stick's kick direction
• When set to "attack," the control stick's kick direction overrides the c-stick's kick direction
• Regardless of which stick overrides the other, they both play a role in the momentum ZSS experiences after the kick

Here's how this all comes together. With c-stick set to attack, and ZSS facing right near the right edge... do this:

Down B --> hold left (shortens the arc of flip kick) --> Control stick RIGHT, c-stick LEFT

This turns the kick outward (rightward), and prevents your momentum from flinging rightward. It allows for outward flip kick with less risk of screwing your recovery. It's useful for the "hype kick" because some recoveries can come from wide angles (Rosalina, Ganondorf) that can be missed by the inward angled kick. But turning the kick out puts her toes right on their face. It's quite nice.

Conversely, with c-stick set to smash, your momentum AND kick direction are dominated by the c-stick. When flip kicking right, it allows for an inside kick that still FLINGS rightward, as if you had missed an outward turned kick.

Even when not used for this edge guard method I'm seeking, it'll potentially make flip kicking safer overall. By preventing flinging momentum, any whiffed kick will result in returning to the edge more quickly and more safely. Putting you back in the match, where you need to be.


EDIT - One more thing! The hype kick II works on Ness, and it DOES NOT TRADE HITS. If his only option is to recover toward the edge, start your flip on the "T" of "THUNDER," and he's screwed. This is the best ever.

OMG. Dude if I'm picturing this correctly, then this is exactly what i've been trying to figure out for the past few weeks. Thank you so much, can't wait to get home and lab.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So, I'm really grinding out this hype kick thing versus computers in training mode. Turns out, pausing the game while they are off stage will stop the computer's actions and force it to recover low, more like a real player might. It still won't pick options like bouncing fish or flip kick, but it's better for practice on up B vs the 1 frame edge vulnerability.

In doing so, I discovered a tech about flip kick, momentum, and the c-stick. It's tough to explain, but I'll give it a go:

• Flip kick's momentum can be effected by the c-stick input.
• Flip kick's kick direction will always be inside the arc when directed by the c-stick.
• When set to "smash," the c-stick's kick direction overrides the control stick's kick direction
• When set to "attack," the control stick's kick direction overrides the c-stick's kick direction
• Regardless of which stick overrides the other, they both play a role in the momentum ZSS experiences after the kick

Here's how this all comes together. With c-stick set to attack, and ZSS facing right near the right edge... do this:

Down B --> hold left (shortens the arc of flip kick) --> Control stick RIGHT, c-stick LEFT

This turns the kick outward (rightward), and prevents your momentum from flinging rightward. It allows for outward flip kick with less risk of screwing your recovery. It's useful for the "hype kick" because some recoveries can come from wide angles (Rosalina, Ganondorf) that can be missed by the inward angled kick. But turning the kick out puts her toes right on their face. It's quite nice.

Conversely, with c-stick set to smash, your momentum AND kick direction are dominated by the c-stick. When flip kicking right, it allows for an inside kick that still FLINGS rightward, as if you had missed an outward turned kick.

Even when not used for this edge guard method I'm seeking, it'll potentially make flip kicking safer overall. By preventing flinging momentum, any whiffed kick will result in returning to the edge more quickly and more safely. Putting you back in the match, where you need to be.


EDIT - One more thing! The hype kick II works on Ness, and it DOES NOT TRADE HITS. If his only option is to recover toward the edge, start your flip on the "T" of "THUNDER," and he's screwed. This is the best ever.

I want to add to this
If you use flip jump to the right and press the left stick right (lengthens the arc), you fly further with a and shorter with attack stick, no matter what direction you press attack stick.

 

[Remzi]

Just tested your findings Tuen, works like a charm. This is gonna be huge for me, thank you so much!

Didn't know about what Tobi said either! Very cool

 

[ぱみゅ]

And so the meta extends further.
I guess I'll put some more practice into ZSS.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan. ZSS' up tilt cool down is garbage. A Washington ZSS ruined me for 3 hours on end and got free grabs any time I whiffed it. After shield drop, you foe gets 27 frames advantage? Even if they shielded on frame 4 and got the worst shield lock AND chose to shield drop, it's 19 frames advantage? RIP in pieces, my favorite move :-(. OK, second favorite next to down B.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan. ZSS' up tilt cool down is garbage. A Washington ZSS ruined me for 3 hours on end and got free grabs any time I whiffed it. After shield drop, you foe gets 27 frames advantage? Even if they shielded on frame 4 and got the worst shield lock AND chose to shield drop, it's 19 frames advantage? RIP in pieces, my favorite move :-(. OK, second favorite next to down B.

Well it's supposed to be an anti air move after all.
I tend to spam it too much too though.

 

[Shaya]

I forgot what it was like to use up tilt, like ever.
Bar the obvious anti-air stuff/too close to shield OoS stuff.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I forgot what it was like to use up tilt, like ever.
Bar the obvious anti-air stuff/too close to shield OoS stuff.

bair OoS doesn't hit very close to the ground though. And low profile characters already lack hit options for zss :-(

 

[Shaya]

I just think hold shield for longer, jab or ftilt or dash away #_#

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Anyone else know that ZSS can zair out of her air dodge? That's kinda neat.

In other news, when Ness up b's closer to the edge, it screws with the hype kick timing. That discovery cost me a few stocks >.>. In other other news, I'm balls at the b&b. Especially when you need to fast fall one of the uairs. Bleh.

But I got an extension on my PhD today, cause I was getting bodied by my deadlines. Hopefully I'll defend in late October. Hopefully I'll also get a little time to finish a project for this board too!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Anyone else know that ZSS can zair out of her air dodge? That's kinda neat.

In other news, when Ness up b's closer to the edge, it screws with the hype kick timing. That discovery cost me a few stocks >.>. In other other news, I'm balls at the b&b. Especially when you need to fast fall one of the uairs. Bleh.

But I got an extension on my PhD today, cause I was getting bodied by my deadlines. Hopefully I'll defend in late October. Hopefully I'll also get a little time to finish a project for this board too!

Yeah we know the airdodge zAir part already, sad part is we still get the airdodge landing lag.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, in pre-release air dodge zair was lagless landing and gave all the tether characters free air dodges into the ground.
Now it effectively just gives you RCO.... Meh.

Zairing out of air dodge is a human limiting factor to a character's capabilities the way it is.

 

[Remzi]

Zair out of airdodge is still really good for recovery, but close to useless onstage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan. ZSS' up tilt cool down is garbage. A Washington ZSS ruined me for 3 hours on end and got free grabs any time I whiffed it. After shield drop, you foe gets 27 frames advantage? Even if they shielded on frame 4 and got the worst shield lock AND chose to shield drop, it's 19 frames advantage? RIP in pieces, my favorite move :-(. OK, second favorite next to down B.

it was like -45 in brawl lol every day i pray to sakurai for the gifts he gave us

also, i discovered that if you get falling fair'd by pikachu if you DI down and dair you instantly get the landing hitbox and can often mess with at least followups. any other mu's this tech could be relevant in?

 

[CatStache]

We got buffed?