Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Shaya]

Up Tilt is like 2 frames safer, fsmash is like 5 frames safer on the sweet spot.
(On shield only)

 

[CatStache]

Up Tilt is like 2 frames safer, fsmash is like 5 frames safer on the sweet spot.
(On shield only)

Was this done in 1.1.0 and we didn't notice at first? Or is there a new patch?

 

[Shaya]

the former.

 

[Peahnuts]

http://www.twitch.tv/perthsmash/v/13369494?t=2h13m23s
Thought I'd share this. Whiffing my dsmash but converting into death.
On a semi related note, came 1st in my pool at our national major! Dropped 1 game, no sets. Top 32 tomorrow. Also I've heard good things about Shaya from some of the east coast players who flew over hehehehe.

 

[Shaya]

"good things", "hehehehe"?
rumbling my jumbles you are.

 

[Peahnuts]

"good things", "hehehehe"?
rumbling my jumbles you are.

I already forgot who But I think I was with Nicks (the ness?), and a puff player who's name I've forgotten. One day I want to play you and Kira over east or something! There are like, zero regular ZSS players here to learn from. (plenty of falcons and marios though if anyone's keen lmao)

 

[pichuthedk]

Mkay so I am uploading those probably useless zss things now. @ Tobi_Whatever the down b wall jump kick recovery without needing to jump and The grounded sliding side b out of dash skid.

Also so I found out we definitely can slide through people who shield PP up Tilts and this was only from normal shields which means you'll be further away behind people if they PS it... so maybe a mix up instead of the brawl days spot dodge up tilt , or jab

longer then it needed to be because Lv 9 links are uncooperative ,distacting jerks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms6fIKh7ZpY

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Mkay so I am uploading those probably useless zss things now. @ Tobi_Whatever the down b wall jump kick recovery without needing to jump and The grounded sliding side b out of dash skid.

Also so I found out we definitely can slide through people who shield PP up Tilts and this was only from normal shields which means you'll be further away behind people if they PS it... so maybe a mix up instead of the brawl days spot dodge up tilt , or jab

longer then it needed to be because Lv 9 links are uncooperative ,distacting jerks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms6fIKh7ZpY

But you needed some kind of extra jump every single time

 

[Otterz]

With the potential of a patch this Monday, how would you guys feel if it made ZSS the best character in the game? (Through nerfs, I don't think we will change at all) I personally wouldn't want players swarming to ZSS akin to Sheik and Diddy. Just curious on your opinions.

EDIT: Source

 

[pichuthedk]

But you needed some kind of extra jump every single time

nah was just to set it up because i am ******** at times =/.

https://youtu.be/ms6fIKh7ZpY?t=35

i run off and just down b hold down to not grab the ledge let her wall jump and then kick asap, afterwards just up b back she can make it because the ledge snap is kinda rediculous.

 

[Tito Maas]

What are approaching options with ZSS? All her moves seem so punishable for a character who's supposed to be ultra aggressive

 

[David Viran]

What are approaching options with ZSS? All her moves seem so punishable for a character who's supposed to be ultra aggressive

Err her moves really aren't that punishable if used right like a spaced dsmash is unpunishable even on a PS and a spaced bair is never getting directly punished. Nair maybe can be but max range I don't think can be because it just has sooo much range. Even a spaced uair, albeit tough to do, is pretty unpunishable directly. The problem is none of those directly beat shield and spacing some of these moves is pretty difficult.

 

[pichuthedk]

Err her moves really aren't that punishable if used right like a spaced dsmash is unpunishable even on a PS and a spaced bair is never getting directly punished. Nair maybe can be but max range I don't think can be because it just has sooo much range. Even a spaced uair, albeit tough to do, is pretty unpunishable directly. The problem is none of those directly beat shield and spacing some of these moves is pretty difficult.

So wait what should we be doing if they PS max range down smashes to make it nonpunishable? I am basically picking the wrong options a majority of the time or just slow reaction time. I have never really thought about it that much.
Obviously jab stops grabs but we able to just dash away or JC flip jump away?

 

[David Viran]

So wait what should we be doing if they PS max range down smashes to make it nonpunishable? I am basically picking the wrong options a majority of the time or just slow reaction time. I have never really thought about it that much.
Obviously jab stops grabs but we able to just dash away or JC flip jump away?

It depends on the character really. If they have a frame 4 dash attack or something then you would have to shield it.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well thinking on it I assume I more than likely would try to do that since I over use my shield frequently, At which point I get shield grabbed.

I need to develop some list of techs that I need to practice. Much like those Melee character "trials" videos I've randomly seen on youtube.Starting to see how rusty I am at this game now =[. How long did it take you guys who switched off smash stick to attack stick? I want to use more PP up/ down tilts and it's not going so well.

 

[Trifroze]

Was it commonly known that usmash true combos into uair and fair between around 0 and 50%?

 

[Shaya]

No but I've been doing it a lot more lately (I'd kinda do it mindlessly in almost the right times as an anti-air punish with smash stick, but with attack stick it's through thought so it's developing better). It's last hitbox is only like 18 frames before we can act (multi uairs being like 30 frames apart at minimum), it's amassing to a pretty large frame advantage actually, enough to make me look at it as a possible kill confirm in the right conditions.

Also early percent nair or up air into up smash is better than up tilt/dash attack/grab, but you can't uair into up smash as a combo too early.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Was it commonly known that usmash true combos into uair and fair between around 0 and 50%?

I know and use the uAir followup but I didn't know that fAir works too.

 

[Peahnuts]

Yeah I kill probably way too often with usmash, because I find it's front hitbox catches people off guard. It's fairly reliable at 130-150% against non-fastfallers if you have even a little bit of rage. Also BF/DL64 platforms make it a little harder to punish if we whiff and they're above us. Honestly surprised fair true combos though. Definitely worth a little experimenting/lab time.

Also Kira came and bopped our whole state with ZSS, and I lost $20 in a bo5 MM to her ahaha. It went to game 5 though, and the whole experience revealed to me how lacking my neutral game/footsies is.

 

[Shaya]

Btw you could call me insane for thinking up smash could be combo'd out of at kill percent, I was playing with my zero suit amiibo recently and I hadn't realised it had bonus weight bull **** even without any stats. That sucks, I hate that.

Anyway. I find it questionably hard to do at any percent really, if I set the 'CPU' to control (so no DI) it feels barely possible at only early percent on someone like dark pit. Could never get fair to combo (at 10%). Probably would work against a human but still shouldn't expect much out of it :>

 

[pichuthedk]

No but I've been doing it a lot more lately (I'd kinda do it mindlessly in almost the right times as an anti-air punish with smash stick, but with attack stick it's through thought so it's developing better). It's last hitbox is only like 18 frames before we can act (multi uairs being like 30 frames apart at minimum), it's amassing to a pretty large frame advantage actually, enough to make me look at it as a possible kill confirm in the right conditions.

Also early percent nair or up air into up smash is better than up tilt/dash attack/grab, but you can't uair into up smash as a combo too early.

I've sorta gone through some of that as well although I'm only on day 3 of attack stick.

Now I'm wondering especially when you said looking at a kill confirm from upsmash.
Before I used to upsmash to force air dodges and then uptilt since they are trapped, wondering why the hell I am only now thinking "why not boost kick When I trap them like that?" Even though it won't kill will be a nice punish.

So much Shinanegans to ponder now.

Fun fact about attack stick you can jab out of crouch/crawl while holding down wondering if we can use that to our advantage In some MUs/janky stages.

 

[Shaya]

You can also use that to neutral air. I have done crouching/crawling* jabs and it's a little bit cheesy but beautiful nevertheless (up tilt too)
I'm liking my dash forward, retreating jump, fast fall c stick neutral airs.
Although it's harder than the same posture (that was really really good) for Marth in Brawl with fair. It's also good to ff uair out of it too in some situations (also much easier to do with double sticking) because you can auto cancel any rising uair from a fast fall.
Obviously also doing that into rar back air (while still jumping backwards) fast is something I'll try to work on later because it looks flashy (it kinda looks like an sudden elevator shaft coming down upon people... it's hard to space too).

*Also a small tidbit habit, but when you land you can hold down and away for example and probably buffer a crawl away, I've had mixed anecdotes with this but I think it can be a sneaky way to avoid grabs by some characters (I may be insane but mario's standing grab may whiff it?)

From the fire/brimstone/ice/cauldron/furnace/flame/etc of reverse wavebounces I've unintentionally embraced the accidental child (plasma whip) as a landing "spacing" tool that has the niche over zair as something that will hit people on the ground "guaranteed" that you can land with at varying heights. I feel like a lot of characters actually struggle to punish this on shield at max range.. it may honestly be only a small amount of characters which can.

 

[pichuthedk]

You can also use that to neutral air. I have done crouching/crawling* jabs and it's a little bit cheesy but beautiful nevertheless (up tilt too)
I'm liking my dash forward, retreating jump, fast fall c stick neutral airs.
Although it's harder than the same posture (that was really really good) for Marth in Brawl with fair. It's also good to ff uair out of it too in some situations (also much easier to do with double sticking) because you can auto cancel any rising uair from a fast fall.
Obviously also doing that into rar back air (while still jumping backwards) fast is something I'll try to work on later because it looks flashy (it kinda looks like an sudden elevator shaft coming down upon people... it's hard to space too).

*Also a small tidbit habit, but when you land you can hold down and away for example and probably buffer a crawl away, I've had mixed anecdotes with this but I think it can be a sneaky way to avoid grabs by some characters (I may be insane but mario's standing grab may whiff it?)

From the fire/brimstone/ice/cauldron/furnace/flame/etc of reverse wavebounces I've unintentionally embraced the accidental child (plasma whip) as a landing "spacing" tool that has the niche over zair as something that will hit people on the ground "guaranteed" that you can land with at varying heights. I feel like a lot of characters actually struggle to punish this on shield at max range.. it may honestly be only a small amount of characters which can.

Well yeah that's true. Marios grab may whiff if we down tilt? XD landing side b's sometimes that's just me doing turn around side bs when I obviously didn't want to reverse a paralyzer...

Now the crouching to attacks with attack stick, crawling and forcing Kirby and puff to go lower then normal and just uptilt with the stick this is sounding to good to be true now. They should be to low to not suffer airdodge lag if they even manage to react fast enough.

I can't do grounded wave bounce paralyzer with my set up atm unfortunately.

On a side note I've started to delve into the dark side that is Sheik testing her with the online tourney mode, I am hopefully looking find a reason to abandon this endeavor and return to the light that is zero suit.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

So I started to give this game another chance.

Some results from Europe: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-summer-cup-solo-1.8373/event

I will probably post later the Videos of GFs, because I need any advice for the Diddy Matchup.

 

[Zero]

Also Kira came and bopped our whole state with ZSS, and I lost $20 in a bo5 MM to her ahaha. It went to game 5 though, and the whole experience revealed to me how lacking my neutral game/footsies is.

10Can'tWaitToGoBackToPerths

 

[pichuthedk]

So I started to give this game another chance.

Some results from Europe: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-summer-cup-solo-1.8373/event

I will probably post later the Videos of GFs, because I need any advice for the Diddy Matchup.

Damn Quik you and cyve still going at it eh? ;p. Don't worry the diddy MU is banana's...I still hate those obnoixous short characters like puff and jiggly more but whatever.

At least metaknight is honest with his BS.

 

[Champ Gold]

Damn Quik you and cyve still going at it eh? ;p. Don't worry the diddy MU is banana's...I still hate those obnoixous short characters like puff and jiggly more but whatever.

At least metaknight is honest with his BS.

>Puff and Jiggly

Don't you mean Puff and Kirby?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I started to give this game another chance.

Some results from Europe: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-summer-cup-solo-1.8373/event

I will probably post later the Videos of GFs, because I need any advice for the Diddy Matchup.

Saw that tourney live, your neutral is really solid, making me jelly.
I don't remember anything particular from the GF but you really need to up your punishment game. You missed some easy kills here and there.
Also you destroying all those Mii Brawlers was really impressive.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Short ones like Kirby and Jiggly arent that bad in general imo.
But Diddy is ridicolous in the neutral game with his banana.

I agree with you, my punishment game is nothing compared to Nairo's, I will work on it.

What i learned about (light) Mii Brawler: Stay around 20-80% in the center of the stage and don't get grabbed, outspace him. After that percents he suddenly gets huge problems to kill you, because dthrow doesn't combo anymore.

 

[Trifroze]

Having come to ZSS from a character like Falcon, I can't help but wonder why falling uairs aren't being implemented into ZSS' neutral more. Falcon's and ZSS' uairs are literally the same move; same startup, same FAF, same arc and virtually the same knockback, although Falcon's KB angle is a bit more horizontal and the weak hitbox is noticeably weaker, and of course Falcon's uair does more damage, but what puts ZSS' uair on par with him despite the lesser damage is of course the fact that ZSS jumps so much higher with both jumps. Falcon might have just a bit more horizontal range on it though, someone could probably check that from somewhere if they wanted to, however it's not relevant for this because both have enough.

Regardless I think with ZSS, falling uairs are a lot more potent because while falling uair creates a +1 frame advantage for both characters after shield drop, ZSS has a frame 1 jab so she can actually abuse it. The move has enough horizontal range to space outside of OoS grabs and basically anything aerial or jump cancellable, and upon hit confirmation you can follow up with virtually anything at any percent, including her BnB, single up b and another uair for a kill at like 120-130%.

Hell, even if you don't space this properly your jab will trade with characters who have a 7f standing grab, although 6f ones will get you in those scenarios. Space properly though and watch them whiff and punish with up b or something.

What am I missing here? Why isn't this a common thing yet? ZSS shield pressure is about to get real.

Btw you could call me insane for thinking up smash could be combo'd out of at kill percent, I was playing with my zero suit amiibo recently and I hadn't realised it had bonus weight bull **** even without any stats. That sucks, I hate that.

Anyway. I find it questionably hard to do at any percent really, if I set the 'CPU' to control (so no DI) it feels barely possible at only early percent on someone like dark pit. Could never get fair to combo (at 10%). Probably would work against a human but still shouldn't expect much out of it :>

It seems to work better on fast fallers, and a fair works if they DI away plus in some other cases as well. You also have to immediately double jump to get to them faster. It's definitely situational but even in the cases where it's not a true combo it'll definitely catch your opponents from any action they try to do.

One more thing, what are the benefits of a transcendent dash attack? It doesn't clank with things, but is this useful for ZSS in any reliable way? All I can think of is scenarios where you trade with something like a first or second jab, sending the opponent into the air and canceling your animation, letting you follow up on that before their hitstun is over.

 

[Shaya]

It's disjointed in front of her to some extent IIRC, so it's basically good at trading with weak hits or beating hitboxes first outright. Long duration make it good for covering air dodges or instant dodge on the ground.

It basically covers a lot of "options" at once which all happen to be the common means of avoidance in air to ground disadvantage transitions. It's a pretty alright move... if we were thinking Brawl, even if it is a bit slower it covers a lot more range, but it's mid range+ ability at 8 frames is pretty amazing.

 

[Trifroze]

Remembered ZSS can also shorthop airdodge into uair which further increases the potency of her falling uair. No one seems to be using cross up SH airdodge into bair either.

Airdodge into fair first hit works as well but that may be too ambitious to get into. It does confirm into a dash grab at higher percents though, and forces a knockdown on fast fallers.

Ehh, maybe I need to make a video of ZSS' uair things and hope someone capable starts developing on it on a high level.

 

[Peahnuts]

Can falling uair hit pika/kirby etc? Because aerials going over some characters and nair basically being a better horizontally ranged landing aerial have been the reasons why I don't falling uair as much as I nair. (though don't get me wrong, I falling uair, a lot)

 

[Trifroze]

Can falling uair hit pika/kirby etc? Because aerials going over some characters and nair basically being a better horizontally ranged landing aerial have been the reasons why I don't falling uair as much as I nair. (though don't get me wrong, I falling uair, a lot)

Yeah, even with fast fall you have several frames to hit the likes of Pikachu, MK, Kirby and Greninja. It hits nearly as low as nair and bair.

 

[SilentGhost]

I'm pretty sure it misses Kirby when he crouches, but hits a crouched Pika. Also, frame perfect uair combos to down smash at some percents (around 0).

Edit: after trying it again, I could not hit a crouched Pikachu with falling uair.

 

[ComeT____]

Bigger bust size.

Yes

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Can falling uair hit pika/kirby etc?

Yes. SHAD uAir helps there too.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Do we have solid, or even numerical estimates, for the workable % range for the B&B combo?

I'm starting to work on finding rough numbers for all characters. It seems that dthrow, uair, uair, boost kick works in a small 15%-ish range, but dthrow, uair, jump, boost kick works for an additional 20-30%. This based on the 2 characters I've completed. If there's interest, I'll complete that and post my numbers. Otherwise... I may still do it as practice for the B&B combo, heh.

 

[Champ Gold]

Question:
Has the Up-Smash ever been nerfed in any patch because it's like the range and knockback got worst or is it placebo?

 

[Otterz]

Question:
Has the Up-Smash ever been nerfed in any patch because it's like the range and knockback got worst or is it placebo?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever been changed from patches.