The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[infomon]

I would like to know that myself. Napi a long time ago had done this on Smashville, a similar situation too, the opponent was shielding and on the edge of the platform, but I don't know how to recreate it on the fly.

Are you sure you're not confusing this with SCROD?

OK what's special about that YI:B vid? Did the Sheik drop her shield, or did she get shield-pushed funny because she's on a slant, so that the game forced a shield-drop (as if you fall off a platform) and then hit her? Or are we surprised by the amount of knockback from an SDR hit? It's an SDR going down a (slight) hill, so it's not too surprising that it does 11% damage.... well maybe slightly surprising since the shield-hit should have slowed it down a notch, but the hill might have compensated for that. Anyway I'm not sure how it did the turnaround at the edge so quick, I think we have seen that before and it's something to do with the shieldpush maybe? idk.

 

[Tesh]

The turnaround at the edge is just shield push. He hit the shield, turned around, was pushed off the stage after he was already registered as going the other way. Then he hit him with a single hit ASC (which is why the knockback was so much and the angle was so high) before landing back on the edge and SDRing the other direction.

If someone makes the mistake of shielding next to the edge this will always work if timed right. Assuming you have your double jump when you start the spindash, You can probably footstool after the single hit ASC.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was ttrying to figure out the mechanics behind the instand turnaround.

 

[XLR8TION]

wow that turnaround lefted me really confused lol.

 

[Brawlman1000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMeAD0Xvz9k

Heres another vid of me. I can't stand this MU but I gotta do it. Anyways, I see my mistakes but plz feel free to critique my Sonic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why cant you powershield lasers?

 

[Brawlman1000]

Cuz I suck.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Get better, and learn to powershield lasers.

 

[Brawlman1000]

I'm practicing that right now thanks for the input.

 

[FRiSKruns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMeAD0Xvz9k

Heres another vid of me. I can't stand this MU but I gotta do it. Anyways, I see my mistakes but plz feel free to critique my Sonic.

as lame as it is, I'd say you need to not approach when you're a stock up against Falco.

I feel like when playing against Falco we have the best odds of beating him if he's approaching us. Unlike plenty of our MUs where we do slightly better making our opponent approach than we do approaching on our own, I feel that in this MU it makes a significant difference. Of course, with good reasons, Falco is a character with amazing zoning capabilities due to his lasers when you're not in CG % they help him get damage as well as set-up for kills if you're in KO percent.

Both games you approached, despite getting the first stock KO, you need to leech more damage off of him by not approaching when you're a stock up. Being that we're Sonic, Falco can have a tough time pinning us into a spot long enough for him to get a kill move off, use it to your advantage.

TL;DR If you're a stock up, don't approach, instead bait his kill moves and punish them accordingly.

Edit: @BSP about killing Falco, I find Nair works really really well for hitting him before or after Phantasm and sometimes even during, you can ask Wedge about my wifi nair shenanigans lol. I feel like if you keep getting him offstage you should definitely find an opening, just like XLR8 was getting at Falco's recovery although seemingly safe, is very linear both metaphorically and literally. You should already know the tried and true spindash to bair though as in any MU if you get predictable you get *****.

 

[FRiSKruns]

Double Post-Bumping so I can get these viewed and critiqued ASAP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHYTDBVDfGw Zero (Sonic) vs Mikehaze (Marth) MM game 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIMgUMkerX4 Zero (Sonic) vs Mikehaze (Marth) MM game 2

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tesh]

Game 1:
It looked like you were getting too far ahead of yourself in planning your next moves. You were caught up jumping around and dashdancing so much that you didn't even punish when you baited him into whiffing laggy attacks like Bair and Fsmash. When you landed the hits you were planning to land you did follow up well and get some good damage, but most of the time you seemed content to run away and charge spindash again or shadow box with an invisible opponent on the other side of the stage. A good example is when you would ASC and shield cancel instead of SDRing into him, he Fsmashed/Baired and you would roll away or keep jumping/uairing when you already had a good 20 frames or so to dash attack or grab him.

After you got hit with low KB moves (AKA combo moves and you were still close to him being chased), you could fair and then try to spindash at him and pretty much get hit again cuz spindash is slow and doesn't really beat a sword. You might wanna try breaking out with Uair if he is close enough to get countered by it or using spring/side b to escape.

@ 3:55 you started charging first and I guess he assumed you would release sooner, but he could have just charged and killed you right there (since there was no way you could release after him).

Looked like he was messing around last stock.

Game 2:
Aside from some minor improvements on your game 1 stuff, it looked like you were too focused on staying moving and being aggressive instead of taking your punishes when you had them. There also some pointless juggle/recovery mixups that left you open to the same options you were supposed to be avoiding. Like dairing past the ledge just to spring recover when you could have recovered high and used the spring to escape or reverse the juggle.

 

[BSP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIs8wSABrAc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdmxV7pf0Ic

All the Dair deaths were SDs; I try to avoid giving up in my matches

My own notes: I can tell when I start fishing for the KO, and I always take major % when I do. If I'm going to throw out Fsmash like that, I need to space it to where if he shields, I hit with the tip so he can't punish; I also need better running mindgames in general

Jnig apparently knows that throwing anything out in midair will beat Dsmash, so I can't Dsmash his landings, and IDK why I didn't pick up on that. I won't try to catch him with that anymore (I reallly like Dsmashing for some reason)

I usually do ok until he gets some momentum going; tipz please

 

[da K.I.D.]

Early % nairs, SDI away from it AS HARD AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. that will keep you from eating a ton of damage.

also, fair his aerials.

 

[Tesh]

I watched one of those sets with it was posted on the Wario boards. You spindashed into him ALOT, I don't know why he didn't just bite it. He barely used it in the set I watched. Special grabs are some of the easier ways to punish reckless spindashing (which is pretty much what you were doing), so don't autopilot and start spindashing back and forth like that.

 

[B.A.M.]

KID speakin truths

 

[BSP]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it

 

[Tesh]

Espy vs M2K 1
Espy vs M2K 2
Espy vs M2K 3

interesting to watch i guess?

Now everyone watch this

Question for Espy: Why didn't you spring and dair when above him more often? 9 times out of 10, you just airdodges into him and I think I counted 3 times where you use spring or dair in the 2nd game and twice you hit him. I don't see much point in airdodging into MK since he is a frame trap monster and we actually have a falling projectile to deal with over zealous shuttle loops and sword swipes. Once you get MK thinking "maybe I need to dodge" when you are directly above, then maybe you can land with airdodge, but I think you should have aimed to trade/win rather than avoid, since Sonic is so much heavier.

The great thing about Sonic's spring in this situation is you can use it and still have the same options you were using to land anyway. Not a whole lot of added risk and it might help you reverse the juggle.

 

[BSP]

Now everyone watch this

Question for Espy: Why didn't you pick MK too?

Fixed.

Serious; MK is terrible for us IMO. If he uses tornado right, camps right, and doesn't get nervous and throw out punishable moves, we can barely put on %. And even then, MK usually always has some mixup ready to make sure your punish isn't guaranteed. And then, getting the KO requires him to make an even bigger mistake

Sigh, don't lose the lead....

 

[Tesh]

But, M2K didn't. Every character above low tier is entitle to a set vs M2K before he learns the matchup and makes it looks free. No johns until you expend every option. If he is getting over zealous and tossing out his attack a little too early, spring will win and give you a chance to land safely (if his percent is high enough) and if he is waiting in shield, you can land with ASC, footstool him or land with AC uair. Worst case scenario you get hit with the same stuff you are handing him for free by airdodging every time.

Play it like a Ganondorf, you know if this **** doesn't work out, you are getting get punished, so make sure you are hitting hard.

Espy DID take the lead back with that respawn invincibility tho. All the kills game 1 were nice.

 

[Espy Rose]

I didn't spring > dair because when I played him in friendlies a few days prior, no matter what I did, he was Meta Knight.

 

[Tesh]

So you just resigned yourself to your fate?

You got kinda "lucky" game 1 with the bad DI kill and that drill rush gimp. I think maybe you could have taken it if you had tried to be a bit more resilient. You were kind of just throwing yourself back into him alot. I know it can seem hopeless when MK has to in the air a long time, but sometimes you were doing great on the ground and you would airdodge like a CPU after getting hit and land right into a dsmash or nair when you could spring him for 5 damage and maybe get another 8 from dair.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm well aware of all of that information, Tesh.
I just don't care because this'll all be irrelevant in two months anyways.

 

[Tesh]

:/

You were up 1-0 against one of the top 2 players in the country and you didn't have some urge to try winning it?

I guess its up to the APEX sonics to make sure the blue blur's last shot at M2K is full force.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that entire set was gay, I would have just won the first match and forfeited the set. to make you deal with that mess for 3 games was kinda douchy.

 

[WedginatorX]

First up, I just want to say that I will never doubt Espy again and that he is my hero.
Second off, tesh, spring dair is possibly the worst thing you can do against mk, falco, and snake. So that's why. MK can just tornado, avoid spring, and hit you. This will juggle you back up and it just resets the situation in metaknight's favor.
Third and finally, I'm going to try to get a set in with m2k at apex. I have only played him in doubles so far, and want to see how I'll hold up one-on-one. I have a feeling it'll go the same as with espy, though.

 

[Espy Rose]

M2K has no idea how to deal with Sonic.
He just happens to main Meta Knight.

@KID: Yeah, I know.
@Tesh: I really, really don't care, since in two months, it'll never be an issue again. Perhaps you'd like to try avoiding perfectly spaced tornados, shuttle loops, and frame traps that are impossible to avoid for 24 minutes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Itll be nice to finally start winning money in tournaments again after mk is gone.

 

[Tesh]

First up, I just want to say that I will never doubt Espy again and that he is my hero.
Second off, tesh, spring dair is possibly the worst thing you can do against mk, falco, and snake. So that's why. MK can just tornado, avoid spring, and hit you. This will juggle you back up and it just resets the situation in metaknight's favor.
Third and finally, I'm going to try to get a set in with m2k at apex. I have only played him in doubles so far, and want to see how I'll hold up one-on-one. I have a feeling it'll go the same as with espy, though.

Its an option. An option that beats all of his <10 frame options if spaced. I'm not saying drop springs from the upper blast zone, but if you get close to MK to where he thinks he can uair frame trap or shuttle loop or nair, it works. AND if you spring and miss and he tornados to avoid it, don't dair. WORST case scenario you are in the same boat and THEN you can airdodge through it.

Now obviously MK has options to deal with this, but ofcourse he does. Its not the same options as dealing with an airdodge tho. Whats your plan then Wedge? Airdodge and wait for ban?

 

[WedginatorX]

You spring, but don't do dair. You can change your trajectory if you don't dair. Dair gives you a fixed trajectory. MK knows exactly where he needs to go to take your booty for free.

 

[BSP]

We can slightly change trajectory. Sonic's air acceleration isn't too great :\ If only we could B reverse a move

 

[Exceladon City]

@Tesh: I really, really don't care, since in two months, it'll never be an issue again. Perhaps you'd like to try avoiding perfectly spaced tornados, shuttle loops, and frame traps that are impossible to avoid for 24 minutes.

^If you haven't experienced this yet, you need to. It's the most obnoxious thing you'll ever have to put up with. I don't even bother playing that hard, I just troll the whole match.

Itll be nice to finally start winning money in tournaments again after mk is gone.

>Implying that he'll start making money. L

Its an option. An option that beats all of his <10 frame options if spaced. I'm not saying drop springs from the upper blast zone, but if you get close to MK to where he thinks he can uair frame trap or shuttle loop or nair, it works. AND if you spring and miss and he tornados to avoid it, don't dair. WORST case scenario you are in the same boat and THEN you can airdodge through it.

Now obviously MK has options to deal with this, but ofcourse he does. Its not the same options as dealing with an airdodge tho. Whats your plan then Wedge? Airdodge and wait for ban?

Or they can just Uair, take the spring and then camp your landings on the GROUND, where you're inevitably gonna be. I do it to Sonics that I play against with any character, ESPECIALLY MK. Sonic has a horrible time landing when he's in fall state and since you're deaing with Metaknight, it's soooooo much more painful.

You spring, but don't have dair. You can change your trajectory if you don't dair. Dair gives you a fixed trajectory. MK knows exactly where he needs to go to take your booty for free.

^This.

Funny how when I played M2K he just picked FD and nadoed and planked me. I don't even like FD, I'd rather play on BF or Lylat.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I mean... My last tournament I got 5th losing to 2 metaknights.

Without metaknight to cover everyones behinds, the only person in my region I can honestly see myself losing to is san. and at this point I think I have a pretty good shot at beating him too.

 

[Life]

BUT U CAN LIEK LERN TEH MATCHUPZ



/ontopic: Wondering if I'll get recorded at the next /hope again--but then, if I do it'd probably be my marth anyway.

 

[wonf]

my recently sonic vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0X7lD7q5Rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsE0aTSbCDE&feature=related

offtopic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1XrGWyYYqU&list=LLn0GKG5ZXmWLqQjf4Wlvi4g&index=2&feature=plpp_video
epic! hahahhahhaha poor sonic D:

 

[XLR8TION]

If I do go to apecks, maybe ill try vs m2k

Spoiler

most likely I won't win tho.

 

[BSP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpAcxK_5QRw&list=UUuX5mrUy3C-usVm6hBUBrcw&feature=plcp

Got closer this time, but still, **** wario; the MU is too tiring for me, and you'll see it when I post the loser's version of me vs Jnig

My huge deaths were when I missed Fsmash when he was on the ledge. He'd usually just AD through it and get a big punish. If he keeps AD'ing, then I'll Dsmash, because that'll beat the AD.

IDK how i got 2 stocks up on Game 2. And I was super scared by my last stock because I didn't want the typical opponent gets on last stock, gets momentum, then Sonic loses cause he gets read like 5 times before he could kill.

G3 was another Fsmash on the ledge loss. IDK why I kept trying to spin after I got hit by low KB moves...I'll spring next time, because if I shield, i get grabbed.

~~~~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGtUYkj6Mug&context=C2b2adADOEgsToPDskKRYXbJCyjOLGkSfnOlpldu

Won the set, but it wasn't perfect, so if there's something I can do better, I'm all ears.

 

[Tesh]

I'm gonna tell you right now, that you get killed because at high percents all you do is spindash at him and eventually he just hits you for free and you die. Notice how you played differently game 2, baiting him into alot of stuff and not spindashing EVERY time you wanted to hit him. Game 1 was 90% spindash approach, game 2 was 90% not. the early lead helped, but it should be clear to you that its super predictable and easy to deal with when you only use 1 or 2 options.

You know once he gets hit super fart, you might as well just keep camping him... its not like its gonna get any worse.

Game 3, you shouldn't have been trying to fsmash him at 103 anyway. THEN you died again because you wanted to Fsmash him at 83. Even with horrible DI, all that would do is put him in a rough recovery situation.

Fight back during combos, Uair is great for this and you don't have to get poked by all those nairs.

 

[BSP]

So.....

Lay off Fsmash when the risk reward isn't good, so like anywhere below 130ish

And remember I have other moves aside from just SDR'ing at him.

Ok thanks

 

[Tesh]

Well don't think of it just about the percents and if it will kill. Fsmash has other uses like baiting and spacing with that massive range. Not so much in the Wario matchup tho.