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The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Arrrrr, why can't I fall asleep?

I hate double-posting but I suppose that's my fault for not doing it then when I had the free time.

Anyway, I suppose if I'm going to be awake, I'll at least do as I said I would...

BAM you reading this?

Sorry this is late. College life is just pulling down my pants and making me out to be a complete and utter biiiiiiiiitch. I hate History and having this schedule, uuuuuugh~!

Anyway I'm also too lazy to just send a PM so you'll have to find this yourself.

*Ahem.*

I am not sure if you wanted me to look at the vids that had Tyrant in them... I don't think I want to spend roughly an hour watching video footage alone, at least not on a school night. If you're still looking for more of that though, let me know... I might come back to it ASAP...

As for the matches with Richbrown, I'm curious to know the nature of the vids. I'd assume friendlies, but I never know.

*Yawn.* That's besides the point though. I'd just like to impose some questions, rather than point out stuff. Take for example the lack of Forward Airs, especially as a form of edgeguarding. You did practically everything else but this and I feel that it took away so many early opportunities to either gain a lead or bring it back before you would take on too much damage on the next stock.

Another thing is that I'm sure you understand that Sonic is the only character who can force Olimar to start a new stock without his Pikmin, why did you only make one attempt to take advantage of this? Even if it wasn't going to work, you could at least give him something to think about. On top of this, if you were quick enough to get one Spring and land back on the ground before he can even get off the main platform, you can landcamp Olimar and try to plant a Spring under wherever else he will try to land to pluck Pikmin.

Your ledgeguard tactics are also equally as interesting as your edgeguards... I say, you did seem to land an awful lot of Down Smashes. I may have this wrong, but you don't seem to be in the very least concerned about how Olimar can swat you out with one of his minions at all. As opposed to say dropping a couple of Spring Coils or staying close to but not on the edge of the stage and going about running in place or putting on a show with aerials.

Those were the big things. Approaching him while he was on stage was something else all-together. I can't say whether or not you had the right idea. I just want to ask if going to YI:Brawl is a good idea or not if it's against Olimar now. Sometimes it's helpful to Spinshot and Bair... Just as it's helpful to sometimes abuse iSDR... even though I can't remember for the life of me if you can grab Sonic out of it... I would not be surprised if that were the case actually... It certainly does make a hefty land punish though, it's quick, gets damage, and possibly sets up for a kill or put him into a recovery situation which plausibly does lead to gimps... Kinda, sorta, maybe. How does ASC work out for you anyway? I don't recall you using it much, but I'd be lying if I said I was the best at memorizing things.

*Grumble.* Yay~, now I'm kinda tired, maybe I'll doze off for five hours at least.

Edit: Oooooooh yeah, Tyrant, and Falco. I can get back to you on Falco, once I formulate some new plans of my own and try out something(s) new. Tyrant I'd say eh... If it doesn't get too late, no later than a month or whenever s the next time you play him. Again I'll try and find some free time, I wouldn't hold your breath though, I can't even find the time to complete my damn project.

:093:
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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olimar cant grab us out of invincible spindash, neither can anybody else.

however, the instant we jump out of the roll, we become hittable/grabable. and since olimars grab last for 2 and a half days, its not uncommon for him to grab you and make it seem like you got grabbed out of an invincible move.
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
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Bambatta
^^^^^ Truth. I was trying something the other day. You know how people use their jabs to clank with our SDRs? Ive never been too consistent at it, but a lot of the time we can just jump beforehand so no clash takes place.

@Kinzer: yeah i needed way more fair during edgeguard attempts. I did use ASCs, but he would nair on reaction so i would either DJ then ASC again, but then i realize i can just use SD, and if i see a nair then i can SC and grab or something. ASC is still awesome in this MU. I just think Nair/utilt ***** it like no other.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Oh that reminds me, very quick tip BAM:

Anytime he approaches you from the air, hold that shield for dear life.

Either that, or have crazy mad SDI skills if you get tagged by a UTilt or Nair, especially Nair. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that and it shouldn't work, like, at all. Spring Jumping after could also work.

I think he falls slow enough that you can basically react to anything else. It's not like Falco where if he jumps on you you have to understand it's a mix-up and he could aerial on the way down or use his absurd fastfall and grab before you have time to realize what happened. I think.

Anyway either shield or see what you can do to outrange... or outprioritize any pikmin attacks (lolpikmin priorities).

:093:
 

B.A.M.

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^^^ lol I love new Sonic videos. They move so slow. Its awesome to see another brotha though I must admit. Ill critique later for sure.

@ Tesh: I think its about time i send you the footage for the frame traps just to get things out there for new Sonics. If only people read these days. Straight laziness.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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I mess around with sonic alot, he's fun. I feel like i've become smarter by playing him. Hopefully the other matches get uploaded.
 

B.A.M.

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Yeah dude, Hes an awesome character to play with a variety of different ways to play him. I love it. I dont feel pigeonholed like i do with some other characters. Cant wait for those other matches.

@Wedge: ***** im watchin you.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Oh BAM, while you're here.

Falco is pretty much a player Vs. player MU. I'm sure you probably knew this, and how Falco just happens to have it easier, but I finally put that idea down this weekend.

It's pretty much you just have to find the pattern the Falco player has. A lot of it is spotdodging after a certain condition is met, such as landing, Jab1, Phantasm, whatever.

Speaking of patterns, everything else tends to be just that. Getting close to some Falco players makes them warp away. Other times if they know you're aggressive, they will grab your direct approach.

I'm sorry if you were expecting a detailed synopsis. That's really it, just a battle of wits with which one character has it better. I use to think it was bad, to some extent I probably still believe that but I'm sure it's just my inabilities that hold me back and not necessarily Sonic. Most definitely a winnable MU, just gotta be paying constant attention, that's all.

:093:
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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KK

i need to change like. 2 or 3 portraits so you don't have something ugly.
I'll have it to you within a day or two. College johns.
 

Mr. Johan

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Shoutouts to Wedge going through the trouble of getting all of this up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WSYFaVXUaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwPjti6GZ0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKidyBA2D1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfJmteUoRCQ


A lot of Sonic vs. Falco. These happened around midnight or so, so we were kind of out of it, lol. Random stage select graced us though, and of the 15 or so matches, we only got Halberd and SV and YI a second time; everywhere else we went to just once and are, or once were, legal stages.

And just so I'm clear about it, I'd like critiques over these matches, lol. I'm hoping Kinzer etc. will help me out.
 

WedginatorX

Smash Champion
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Holding side-B against Cheese until he quits.
Just some general notes from watching while I was recording:
-Your recoveries are all extremely predictable. You need to mix-up where you land, and make sure not to land in the same place you just came from. Experiment more with spinshots and ASC to DJ rather than springing as much as you do. You spring really close to the stage and a better falco would air trip you by grabbing you out of your spring. I saw several oppertunities that typex missed where you should've been dead.
-You dthrow against falco far too much. A falco who knows about the advantage he gets on teching dthrow at the right time would get a ton of free damage every time you downthrow, so much so that it's not even worth using the move. Luckily, very few people that aren't sonic mains or havent used sonic don't know how to tech it; however, falco gets free jabs out of a dthrow tech. In chaingrab percentage, that would be a free 30-50% for falco. Watch your dthrow usage and make sure the opponent doesn't start teching it or you're screwed.
-Don't underestimate the hitbox of falco's fsmash that goes behind him. It's a rediculous move and the whole range of the attack covers at least a fifth of the stage.

I'll add more later.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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I would still like a critique over my first match.
I'm assuming that he person with my replay will never get it back to me.

Sooo...
 

infomon

Smash Scientist
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
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Toronto, Canada
Hello, Sonics! I'm trying to pick up Sonic for MMs and such, but I'm beyond terrible with him.
Can someone please criticize these for me?[/URL]
Well, you timed out the MK, so you're doing something right :D

more srsly, I recommend you use more ASC (down-b in the air), particularly followed by shield-cancel/grab. Pay attention to what the opponent does when you do this outside of their range, or how they react to spindashes in general. Being away from the opponent and charging a spindash, is a terrible approach; you need to train in them what they will respond, and then use the various ways of cancelling and messing with the timing/spacing of the spindashes in order to capitalize on their misteaks.

Sonic has lots of options and mixups. Most of them are terrible, but having lots is important. Try to figure them out.

I recommend more running around (e.g. past the opponent and reverse-grab), dashdancing. learn to stutter-step the Fsmash cuz that helps. Also I recommend more Fair, and especially more Bair; like shorthopped spaced bairs just out of the opponent's range so they'll hit them if they move towards you any.

idk tho just thoughts

:054:
 

Kinzer

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Kinzer
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Ugh jeez. Better look at this since I only really have a Sociology exam and I still have a few hours to study and a whole half-day give or take before the class.

And before I feel like procrastinating with Soku/IaMP especially.

First off, let me start with this:

Criticizing Falco videos is a chore. I spend more time watching the Falco and I'm not impressed. You can say after watching and playing SK92 it's simply an eyesore, especially since this Falco has patterns that are so very obvious.

What's worse is that it's working when it really shouldn't. I'm not one to be talking, but this Falco just fished for grabs at low percents, the FSmash edgeguards and juggle-enders were painful to watch, and I have to wonder how robotic the Spotdodge -> whatever and USmashs were.

To be fair though, it doesn't matter if I am poor at playing this MU. You, certainly, could've taken better measures at preventing so much of these tactics. I will leave it mostly to your imagine to figure out what to do in these cases, but for example in avoiding the chaingrab, you could try stopping outside of Falco's CQC range and paying attention to his reaction or predicting a pattern instead of going in with an intent of making "this one" approach work. I can't tell you how it seems every Falco player will respond with a spotdodge just because it's so abusable and good and follow-up with a string just because once Falco gets going he goes but in reality he really can't do much off random hits.

Uhm, you're making edgeguarding to out to be a hassle. All you really have to do is ledgehog. It's very clear you have difficulty punishing him onstage, so either you want to be on the ledge or give him the room he needs to get to the middle of the stage and wait there; not inbetween. Pick one or the other really, AFAIK you can't have both. If anyone else would like to help you with this by all means take their advice but don't keep doing what you're doing now 'cause it's clearly not doing anything, let alone what it was intended to do.

Speaking of, what is your intention? Are you trying to get a kill, rack up damage, or prevent dying or taking damage? Figure out what it is you want to do at specific moments, and don't think one option is meant for "this" or "that." I figure you were approaching to try to get an opening, but you were not only not paying attention to your opponent but you also weren't paying attention to yourself. Why not play defensively to get an opening, or approach to avoid damage? (Think: ASC > SDR > [SDJ > {DJC}] - Right here you have three different getaways that your opponent will have to predict, if if they can't guess right you've created more space or left yourself with another opening. It's up to you to decide if you want to play it safe or capitalize) As backwards as the last sentence was, it works surprisingly well.

That's all I noticed. Not gonna sort through near 50 minutes of footage for specific things or more general stuff (again), I don't have that kind of time anymore sadly. That's just what I noticed in general. If you're going to play Falco again, respect that his defensive options are wonderful, and your offensive approaches are mediocre and think about how you're going to take down said based-God.

I would still like a critique over my first match.
I'm assuming that he person with my replay will never get it back to me.

Sooo...


Uhm... You know, it's very difficult to critique matches where you won, especially if it was only one match. There isn't enough of a sample to see what would be wrong with your playstyle as opposed to perhaps a misinput or a one time bad judgement that you wouldn't mind normally. For the sake of it, I will look at it. I would however like for you to come back with either another video, or a batch of them next time if you are serious about getting better with Sonic.

Uhm... you know, looking at it, I can't help but think that the Wario spent so much time in his shield, and the time he was in the air he was airdodging, not really attacking. I am pretty sure Wario's aerials would at least trade with everything that wasn't Bair or Uair. Even when he was kind of weaving on top of your shield, he really wouldn't uhm... let's say, dance around, or make you second guess he would land after.

I dunno, I'm sorry. :/ If it helps, you were doing what you had to do of course, but that isn't saying much.

This is kind of what I'm going for. Someone who has the right idea, just not the right execution!

... Aww FFS, the second match goes to time~! Uuuuuuughrrrrrrrrr~!



I have to be fair though...

Okay.

There isn't much to say, again the basics are there, just a few habits and "wat?" moments here and there. You don't need to roll with Sonic. Sonic's rolls are one of the better ones yes, but you don't need them all the time. Sonic's got a good shield, use that, along with just his natural movement speed to get around.

You also don't need to Dair after every Spring Jump. Give 'em something else to think about every so often!

Sonic can also recover from any angle and he gives you plenty of time to think about how you're going to do it. You don't need to be doing everything ASAP, that's what got you killed in the first match anyway.

Speaking of recovery, your approach could use some work.

You grab anytime the opponent is on top of you, jab only if grab won't be fast enough. It is also a possible follow-up after some ASC approaches, so long as you shield cancel them and your opponent doesn't try to punish OoS. You can't jab after an ASCSC and even if you could it would be a mediocre mix-up at best. use Sonic's tilts when you need both a mix of range and speed; I suppose that's what jab is for; best speed to range ratio Sonic has with his attacks. Everything else is either slow or short, and if it isn't that it's just not strong. Nevermind how a few things tend to be some combination of the aforementioned.

You could cut down on the smash attack usage too. FSmash is used for a hard punish, not really something to rack up damage with. DSmash also works as a landing punish, not necessarily a ledgeguard. USmash is just bad unless your opponent is on a platform or you're going for a high-altitude land-camp or something, kind of obscure actually. You also don't need to immediately approach once you have a Spin Charge or a Spin Dash going, hold it and see when it would be best to release. You were doing this without a second jump and it was costing you.

Your ledge get-ups could use some work. Trying to be fancy is just going to get you swatted far offstage, and without a second jump Sonic is actually kind of gimpable. Use aerials or ledgehops, everything else as far as you should be concerned with is a mix-up.

:093:
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
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I'll try my best to get the other vids uploaded

It's SO ANNOYING i try to MM with my sonic, i record them, and then they don't get uploaded :-\
 

FRiSKruns

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
500
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San Antonio, Texas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWBumO93FK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=0s - Zero (Sonic) vs BSP (Luigi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWBumO93FK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=306s - Zero (Sonic) vs BSP (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWBumO93FK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=622s - Zero (Sonic) vs BSP (Mario)

the first match was game 2 (IIRC) of a MM against his weegee.
2nd was game 2 of our Sonic ditto MM. (I won my money back lol)
3rd was a friendly :)

I'd like some critique on all of these if possible. Thanks in advance! :grin:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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more srsly, I recommend you use more ASC (down-b in the air), particularly followed by shield-cancel/grab. Pay attention to what the opponent does when you do this outside of their range, or how they react to spindashes in general. Being away from the opponent and charging a spindash, is a terrible approach; you need to train in them what they will respond, and then use the various ways of cancelling and messing with the timing/spacing of the spindashes in order to capitalize on their misteaks.

Sonic has lots of options and mixups. Most of them are terrible, but having lots is important. Try to figure them out.

I recommend more running around (e.g. past the opponent and reverse-grab), dashdancing. learn to stutter-step the Fsmash cuz that helps. Also I recommend more Fair, and especially more Bair; like shorthopped spaced bairs just out of the opponent's range so they'll hit them if they move towards you any.

idk tho just thoughts

:054:
I usually stutterstep and dashdance quite a bit, but a certain retired Wario main came by a fest a few weeks ago and broke my control stick. At certain points (like 1:06, 2:19, or 3:03 on the MK one), I tried to do so and couldn't. ^^;
Thank you very much for the criticism. Trying to do the ASC stuff offstage scares the hell out of me, but I'll try it a bit more.

By the way, is there a topic that shows specifics of Spinshot (frame data for inputs, requirements, quirks of the technique, etc.)?
I couldn't find anything about it in the community guide.

... Aww FFS, the second match goes to time~! Uuuuuuughrrrrrrrrr~!
It's Sonic! I'm sorry, but I don't know what else to do against MK. XD

Okay, so
- Slow down on the rolls/jabs/Dairs
- Be more patient
- Grab everything that gets close enough to grab
- Jab is worse than Olimar's
- Fsmash less (I kind of formed that habit during the MK matches; Mike2 was getting freaked out when I kept randomly throwing out Fsmashes)
- Dsmash to punish landings, not edge stuff
- Don't be fancy on the edge all the time
Got it! Thanks for the specific criticism.

Those SWR portraits are so big. Do you always use them instead of emoticons?
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Nope, only when I have a WoT going anyway that it doesn't matter since it's already big anyway.

Like right now.

I have made exceptions in the past.

But I'll try to follow by this rule now.

... GDI, I actually like to use reactionary images! It's become a habit! ;_;

Edit: Wait a minute... How did you know they were Scarlet Weather Rhapsody? ?_?

:093:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Because I am a very powerful psychic wizard (and a mediocre Aya main, but that's unrelated).
This is going off-topic, though. Sorry, Sonics. ^^;
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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I think that Sonic was toying with the Squirtle anyway. Upthrow kills him @ like 160 and he kept getting grabbed.
 
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MasterHavik
Japan still playing Smash. Well, since the beast has been tame and they are kind of getting sick of SF4 AE. They must be going back to smash. Btw...how much would you pay to see Daigo, Kayopolice, and Tokido play Smash?
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Japanese MK dittos are hilarious. They spend alot of time Uairing for no reason. They also allow EDC.
 
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