The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[Browny]

Use SH fair at low % imo.

He cant grab you out of it (spaced properly) and its no less reliable than any other approach you have on Falco >_>

 

[infomon]

Alright I hear ya. But how exactly do I go about another approach?

why are you trying to approach with sonic?

 

[Life]

Maybe because it's Falco--*laser'd*

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I miss Memphischains. :'(

 

[da K.I.D.]

kin, you have to realise that the lasers are far more complecated than you give them credit for.

you cant just say, he'll shoot lasers so I cant do ____. theres much more to consider.

95% of the time, falco has to jump to laser. and he can only hit a grounded sonic with the second laser. and if sk is using silent lasers, you basically have from the time that he jumps to the time that he lands to hit him with ANYTHING that doesnt involve jumping into the first laser he shoots. thats the fatal flaw in falcos laser game. When I play san, I have to be incredibly careful, because theres a spacing that if he sees me jump to laser, he can immediately get a guaranteed dash attack on me, which is a terrible angle sending move against falco.

sonic doesnt have anything that devastating to do to falco, but you can very easily take advantage of that time between lasers that can actually hit you.

in terms of avoiding grabs...
http://spacebears.tumblr.com/page/2

also, even if hes going to get the grab, make him work for it. even if you run away for the first minute of the game, and he gets 30% worth of lasers off on you, 30% of lasers is better than 60-80% in Cgs and followups.

for now work on those two things and worry about everything else later.

 

[sonictailslink]

Hey guys. Can you please critique some of my tournament matches I had back on Saturday?

Tails (Sonic) vs. ShadowofChaos (Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uay0-Lhmjw4

Tails (Sonic) vs. ShadowofChaos (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2r5KINUzOc

Tails (Sonic) vs. Daniel (Fox) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2WHhzio5MY

Tails (Sonic) vs. Daniel (Fox) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XKtpE7xMsg

I already know I need to really really really break my Spring>Dair habit and I got to cut down my iSDR spam on Yoshi Island Brawl since I got desperate. If you can help out anyway, it would be great.

 

[Kinzer]

*Snip.*.

Yes sir, thank you sir.

*Snip.*

You roll too much Jerry. :l

I'ma hit you.

 

[Tesh]

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-QC36UnJNU

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASMpd4AF6so

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFGSXu9UZJQ

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi5vjWOanPI

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnc4IZBhb7k

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnspv3p2gJE

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W69gNJcd3tA

Oreo (Sonic) V Zephil (Fox) 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvtuFfGP5G8

 

[Tesh]

Excel, you make like 0 effort to edgeguard. That is all.

 

[Trillion]

Tails (Sonic) vs. Daniel (Fox) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2WHhzio5MY

I watched it through about 3 times trying to be nit picky, since I think that's best. I have a lot of experience fighting Fox, my bro mains him. If it seems like I listed a lot of stuff, then don't be torn up about it, it's better that I be picky than to be too nice and say that everything was perfect. That certainly wouldn't help you as much. Also, how long have you been playing Sonic? I don't recall seeing you around before. If we haven't met, then nice to meet you. If we have, then oops, sorry!


0:05 - Move your up air to the left when he is shielding at the edge of the platform. The first hit slid him to the edge. The second would have knocked him off. He likely would have fallen off and failed to tech and given you a chance to punish him. This is a small thing, so it's not too big a deal, but sometimes small things can add up to give a big advantage.

0:10 - 0:21, as well as many times throughout the match - you were giving Fox too much space. He was just stepping back a bit more and firing off lasers. Stay in his face and create pressure. Your spins consistently were taking you so far through him that he had time to punish with lasers.

1:47 - Look at how soon you started your fsmash. Literally pause the vid if you have it up. He was still in hit stun when you began it. He saw the attack coming from a mile away because you committed to it too early and he had sooo much time to plan his response and you were stuck committed to the move.

1:49 - I'm not sure in this instance if it were possible, but by SDI-ing down and to the right while holding shield you might have gotten your shield out in time to block the up smash. Again, I'm not sure how new you are to Sonic or brawl in general, so if you need any explanation of SDI, just let us know.

2:15, 2:17 and several other times - use down smash sparingly, it lasts so long that it gives your opponent a ton of time to prepare an attack if you miss.

2:30 - you had a good thought to move back to punish the illusion that you read coming. its great that you predicted his move. however, you stepped back a bit too early and he read you in return and did his illusion to the platform forcing you to miss.

2:34 - generally starting a spin dash that close to an opponent can be dangerous if they aren't too scared to try to attack first.

2:45 - once you see that the fsmash is going to miss, just release it. holding it only gives him more time to plan his punishment.

2:55 and 2:58 - spring chasing to up air can be useful, but if you do it every time, then the opponent learns to avoid it. mix things up and do spring > bair or fair sometimes and you'll find that not only will you catch them by surprise with those attacks, but that it will make them have to fear those as well and sometimes trick them into landing into that upair as they try to avoid a bair or fair. think of it like rock paper scissors. you can't always throw rock, you have to throw scissors and paper too sometimes.

4:44 - try to avoid letting fox get underneath you if he is on the ground(especially at high %), it tends to lead to things like that. also, if he hits you into the air such as at 6:15, DI away and not towards.

7:05 and the match overall - spin less and use running mind games more. Though it IS good that you used the stages slopes for iSDR.

Also, try approaching with spin shot. i don't think i saw you use it offensively even once. Also, use ASC more. You use the spindash a lot but hardly at all use spin charge. I saw that you are aware that ASC can cancel into a shield. Use that as a mind game. You can ASC > shield grab for example.


If you are pretty new to Sonic, then it's that you know some of his general tricky tactics. I saw that you are aware of shield canceling both the spin dash and the asc, that you know the spin shot, and the iSDR. You read your opponent well in some cases. You just need to work on making some better decisions and learning a few match up tricks. With a bit more knowledge and a bit more experience that Fox player would have been in the palm of your hand. Keep working hard and you're sure to see the improvements you want.

 

[Exceladon City]

Excel, you make like 0 effort to edgeguard. That is all.

I'm garbage at edgeguarding I'd rather just punish ledge options.

 

[Tesh]

I'm garbage at edgeguarding I'd rather just punish ledge options.

But you don't. Half the time it looks like you hope he will just phantasm into your Fsmash/Spindash. Most of the time he wound up getting past you unharmed anyway.

I'm not saying you need to spinshot-dair offstage all game to be effective, but you had plenty of chances to just edgehog him and punish his landing onstage from firefox. Not to mention chances for stagespikes with bair.

Its important to make the most of every advantageous situation. Especially if you wanna get better.

[Collapse= So after you land that Fsmash or Bair at 70%, get out there and show them....]

[/Collapse]

 

[sonictailslink]

I watched it through about 3 times trying to be nit picky, since I think that's best. I have a lot of experience fighting Fox, my bro mains him. If it seems like I listed a lot of stuff, then don't be torn up about it, it's better that I be picky than to be too nice and say that everything was perfect. That certainly wouldn't help you as much. Also, how long have you been playing Sonic? I don't recall seeing you around before. If we haven't met, then nice to meet you. If we have, then oops, sorry!

That's true. It's better to be more picky about it since I made a lot of mistakes and should learn from them. Just being nice about it won't help me improve at all. I've been playing Sonic since Brawl came out, however for like actual tournament, I've been using Sonic for about a year and a half and Kinzer been helping me out to improve. Though there are still a few habits that I need to break out of like the spring>dair issue, but I have to learn it the hard way.

I've been mainly on the Sonic boards since I'm really not too active and I usually don't post a lot because I'm kinda shy and don't know what to say about match ups and stuff. Even when I do post something, it usually just overshadowed by something else so I'm usually never noticed too much.

Anyway, yeah I read your comments and I'll put them into consideration with changing my gameplay. I do like to spindash next to my opponent. I should put into my mind that when I'm right next to my opponent, don't spindash. Just either do jabs or some other type of attacks.

With my spacing, I'm too much on the defensive which gives my opponent time to think of a plan. I should play a bit more offensively and keep my spacing to a minimum.

Anyway, thanks for some help with my Fox match-up.

You roll too much Jerry. :l

I'ma hit you.

I already know that Kinzer. I should practice with the no-shield control scheme again to break that rolling habit and practice a bit more offensively since I remember when I practiced with that, I played more offensively.

 

[Joemama8]

oh mah gawd, cool shwoop bro...

Oreo doesnt really play offstage too much, just not his style i guess.

 

[Trillion]

I've been mainly on the Sonic boards since I'm really not too active and I usually don't post a lot because I'm kinda shy and don't know what to say about match ups and stuff. Even when I do post something, it usually just overshadowed by something else so I'm usually never noticed too much.

Anyway, yeah I read your comments and I'll put them into consideration with changing my gameplay. I do like to spindash next to my opponent. I should put into my mind that when I'm right next to my opponent, don't spindash. Just either do jabs or some other type of attacks.

With my spacing, I'm too much on the defensive which gives my opponent time to think of a plan. I should play a bit more offensively and keep my spacing to a minimum.

Anyway, thanks for some help with my Fox match-up.

No problem dude. Yeah people tend to get overshadowed sometimes before we get to know them very well. You seem pretty cool, so don't be shy. Really, around here we are pretty friendly, so just jump on into discussions like match ups and stuff.

 

[Kinzer]

And That's almost a lot of what I've been telling ya already Jerry.

Or at least the part about you being a cool-cat. I'm glad Magnum went into specifics for me, whereas I normally just noticed your unchanged habits. I suppose slow improvement is still improvement, no matter what or where.

... *Sigh.* Wish there was a way to get you to easily stop that Spring > Dair habit. It gets you punished sure. Is there any way to set up a savings account where everytime you do it, you automatically donate $1 to the Hakurei Shrine Donation Box Help Kinzer pay for whatever he feels like at that moment foundation? It'd certainly help to buy that Reisen plushie whenever the person takes commitions again.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what I do when I play people with bad habits, is that I put them in the same situation over and over, and then before they do that thing that they always do, I pause the game and tell them not to do it.

*hits tails with SH fair and tries to double jump fair*
*tails springs*
*pause. "dont down air"*
*unpause*

 

[Joemama8]

Lol @ if they already input the command when you paused

 

[Kinzer]

Buffer that pause!

 

[Espy Rose]

That's horrible, KID.
They won't get that nice little pause in a REAL match.

 

[Kinzer]

That's horrible, KID.
They won't get that nice little pause in a REAL match.

But it's certainly annoying enough that it will get them to stop doing it drastically, if not altogether.

Jerry's going to hate me so much for this but I figure I've already established myself as the super annoying guy everybody loves (to hate).

Also, testing new sig, brb.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's horrible, KID.
They won't get that nice little pause in a REAL match.

you have to start small.

you havent played tails, i have.

kinzer tells him all the time to stop dairing but that doesnt help.

You dont get any kind of advice on how to do things better in a serious tourney match. thats why you do odd things to test strategies and curb habits in friendlies.

with the people I play with up here, I only have to pause the game like 3 times when they have a bad habit for them to start noticing when they do it and start fixing it.

also, its probably the best idea that ive seen brought up. so if you guys want to spend more time bashing and figuring out holes in a decent idea rather than coming up with better ones, hey, i guess thats an option too.

 

[Exceladon City]

But you don't. Half the time it looks like you hope he will just phantasm into your Fsmash/Spindash. Most of the time he wound up getting past you unharmed anyway.

I'm not saying you need to spinshot-dair offstage all game to be effective, but you had plenty of chances to just edgehog him and punish his landing onstage from firefox. Not to mention chances for stagespikes with bair.

Its important to make the most of every advantageous situation. Especially if you wanna get better.

[Collapse= So after you land that Fsmash or Bair at 70%, get out there and show them....]

[/Collapse]

I miss bair stagespikes regularly. You are on my case about stuff that I'd rather not do. I don't gimp, I'm godawful at it. I would rather not put myself in a worse position by missing a gimping opp and end up on the ledge while they are safely on the stage. If I'm on the stage I have many more options.

oh mah gawd, cool shwoop bro...

Oreo doesnt really play offstage too much, just not his style i guess.

^This.

 

[Kinzer]

I miss bair stagespikes regularly. You are on my case about stuff that I'd rather not do. I don't gimp, I'm godawful at it. I would rather not put myself in a worse position by missing a gimping opp and end up on the ledge while they are safely on the stage. If I'm on the stage I have many more options.

Then practice gimping in friendlies. Learn where and when you can apply it by trying it out in the first place. If you cannot afford to take certain risks in matches that count, work on breaking into the (good) habit elsewhere/elsehow.

You are neglecting a good chunk of Sonic's game which is pressuring characters that have abusable recoveries. The first thing to do would be to stop going for those gimmicky Bair stage spikes. I have not gotten it to work, nor have I seen it work recently because people stopped being real stupid and staying on the ledge long enough for their invincibility to wear off.

You have Spinshots, Spring Jumps, Down Airs; there is no reason you can't get to one spot and back in a relatively quick manner as Sonic. If you mess up, you usually have another way to get back. They are not always safe, but as long as you don't mess up you will not need to take such measures to ensure your safety on the return.

Think about it broski, try using that Bair to hit them away from the stage as opposed to towards. Good players would probably tech your Bair stagespike anyway, but again nobody that is any bit intelligent ever puts themselves in that position anymore.

 

[sonictailslink]

No problem dude. Yeah people tend to get overshadowed sometimes before we get to know them very well. You seem pretty cool, so don't be shy. Really, around here we are pretty friendly, so just jump on into discussions like match ups and stuff.

I'll try. I'm really not good at match-up discussions, but I guess it doesn't hurt to try once and a while to jump in.

what I do when I play people with bad habits, is that I put them in the same situation over and over, and then before they do that thing that they always do, I pause the game and tell them not to do it.
*hits tails with SH fair and tries to double jump fair*
*tails springs*
*pause. "dont down air"*
*unpause*

I never though of doing that. Maybe next time I see Kinzer, we can try to do that to break my dair habit, even though I might get annoyed with the pausing, but it might work. I really didn't get a chance to do any friendlies before the tournament since I was running around at the venue trying to get stuff set up like a chicken without it's head.

But it's certainly annoying enough that it will get them to stop doing it drastically, if not altogether.

Jerry's going to hate me so much for this but I figure I've already established myself as the super annoying guy everybody loves (to hate).

Also, testing new sig, brb.

Reimu! :3

You are not that annoying.

That's horrible, KID.
They won't get that nice little pause in a REAL match.

I'm willing to try anything out right now. I know I won't get that nice little pause in an actual tournament match, but pausing during a friendly match to help me break a bad habit won't hurt too much. I even gone to the point of not having a shield control scheme to help me somewhat break my rolling habits. I just want to break this Spring>Dair habit of mine. I just don't know why I'm able to break my Dair suicide habits with Toon Link, but my Spring>Dair habit with Sonic, I'm just having the hardest time trying to break it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its supposed to be annoying, thats what makes you stop doing things that result in annoying consequences happening.

 

[infomon]

its supposed to be annoying, thats what makes you stop doing things that result in annoying consequences happening.

If that worked, then would any of us still be playing brawl?

 

[Tesh]

I miss bair stagespikes regularly. You are on my case about stuff that I'd rather not do. I don't gimp, I'm godawful at it. I would rather not put myself in a worse position by missing a gimping opp and end up on the ledge while they are safely on the stage. If I'm on the stage I have many more options.



^This.

You don't wanna gimp people? Then go main snake!! Like I said, there are safe ways to pressure someone's recovery without putting yourself at a large risk. You gotta be willing to try new things and diversify your gameplan. Every time u knock him off stage and refuse to keep the pressure on, you are giving him breathing room, time to calm down and think etc.

If you don't want to even try to gimp then why do you even back throw/fthrow/dthrow him at all? You should just upthrow for the damage if you aren't up to the challenge of an offstage showdown.

As for bair stagespikes, I'm talking about those low firefoxes that are too close to edgehog for a kill. You can only go so far if you limit yourself like that.

 

[Xaltis]

I like Fair/fast falling the opponent off the stage to bair stage spike. ^_^

 

[Trillion]

I have an interesting way to break certain bad habits.

For a while I was in a really bad dodge rolling habit. So, I changed my configuration so that L=A and R=A so that I could not try to dodge roll.

If you consistently to spring > dair by flicking C-stick down, then you could try setting it so that your C-stick = shield or something or whatever happens to not be the same as dair.

Might help.

 

[Tesh]

That honestly sounds like a horrible thing to do. But if it works...

When I'm in "learning mode" I'm careful to perform actions one at a time. No predetermined follow ups or recovery patterns. Just reassess the situation after every move.

Its important to try to hit the other guy with your spring, if you want to spring-dair safely. Its actually a pretty good spindash follow up. Spring-dair is more damaging then fair and u can follow up better due to the auto cancel. PLus it makes you look cool.

 

[Mr. Johan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jks3n618raA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jMtpIJKpQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMCm3Iu2dCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0MqeH7Nxyk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w0ptUWu8VY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtL5O_PL3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJqHCFeLAM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQVDlF3FUQk

A bunch of Sonic vs. GW games I had with my friend this week. The first 5 are friendlies, the last three are from an online tournament set from yesterday that we were fortunate enough to play offline since we were in the same room playing it.

I had a bunch more from the first set, more that I won, but I didn't care to save them since we were more concerned with getting matches for Chozo's combo video he's making. Nonetheless, I did try in those matches, despite being friendlies.

The last three came directly off of my Wii. "Awake" works so well on Battlefield.

 

[WedginatorX]

Roll less, pressure/wall with bair moar.

 

[infomon]

Stop jumping into his attacks. It seems like you're inexperienced at the G&W matchup; though it might just be that you're used to... going towards the enemy and attacking... rather than responding to where you think he's going to go.

It looks to me like you have a bit of a "weaving" playstyle; you weave in and out; towards opponent, away, towards, away. And that's fine. But a lot of the time when you're going "away", you miss a beautiful opportunity to punish him. One example is after up-throw; it seems like you run away to a position from which you're totally unable to punish him when he instinctively attacks out of the up-throw. Instead you should be prepared for him to do something dumb like that (attack or airdodge instinctively) and then jump + punish him. Even when you tried sometimes you were too far away lol.

Another example is when he's on the edge; sometimes he'd to the ledge-getup and you'd be running away, instead of smacking him with a bair.

I recommend more bair, and control space more.

 

[Mr. Johan]

GW is in fact one of my most played matchups, in terms of quantity. The problem is I got that experience from one single GW player, so I tailored my style in the MU to combat his own GW. Now that I've started playing Chozo more often, he's found a playstyle to effectively combat me, whereas I'm struggling harder to adapt because I had gotten so used to the style I was using. But that's the problem with using Sonic moreso than other characters, so it's something I've got to get used to and improve on as a player.

I'm a little intimidated to use Bair a lot; I'm not confident in my spacing and timing, and that's amplified when GW's Bair and Nair are so huge and will stop any poorly placed move. Same goes for Uthrow followups; I can't really gauge the range of that Dair, and if I try to wait for it, he can pull it out again and hit me as I'm jumping up.

What you two are basically saying is for me to be a tad more aggressive and get better at zoning, I guess?

 

[Kinzer]

There's really no reason not to get better at spacing...

Just Saiyan.

As for the rest of that post, G&W is really a character you have to approach with a shield. Until you can find holes in the player, you really have no other method of counterattacking/approaching. Dair on shield can be met with an FTilt, a SHBair can be met with a quick DA, a FHBair you can usually sneak under and attack from an angle Bair doesn't cover, etc. Don't try to get any follow-ups, go for single hits/two-attack strings. If you get confident, you are more likely than not to mess-up, and G&W thrives on punishing your messed up inputs. Play it cool and you should have an easier time.

 

[Exceladon City]

Pretty much the above.

Practice Bair, it's amazing and it's easily Sonic's best aerial and his saving grace in most match-ups.

General tip against GWs: Try to make them as trigger happy as possible. GWs will take full advantage of the fact they have retardedly fast smashes and tilts and will not hesitate to throw one out to stop you in your tracks. Make them think they can **** your approaches on reaction and be ready to punish them for it.

 

[WedginatorX]

Josh (not kip, storm), you have an aim? If so, hit me up (Scourge093). After playing you a bit with my falcon and watching your vids, I wanted to give you some advice but kept on forgetting. I prefer critiquing live to doing so on forums. Hmu bro.

 

[infomon]

I'm not saying to just up-B right under him after an upthrow; that would be bad, you should expect he might Dair in that case lol. But after u-throw, watch what he does, and/or run to where you'd be in a position to up-b *beside* him, in the case that he uses an aerial right after the u-throw (which he very often did; either that or he airdodged; and you could get up there and smack him with a bair).

I'm also not saying to be more aggressive per se, just to stay outside of his range and be ready to punish him when he.... does anything

*shrug* but idk. I'm kind of a n00b.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I do not have an AIM, Wedge, but an MSN. I also have a Skype that we could probably use to talk, but not right now, since finals are coming up and I'm at a crossroads on deciding my major.

Infzy, yeah, Up-Bing after an Upthrow is pretty suicidal; I'm talking about Up-throw at low percents and following up with FH and SH aerials (for some reason though, I've had success with Up-throw -> buffered Spring -> buffered B-air on a lot of characters around 100-110%. Is that a true combo on characters with low base air speed, or are they just not DIing?). I try to space, but I have a knack for staying just inside an aerial's maximum range, getting hit.