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The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

Espy Rose

Dumb horse.
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Updated the archives. A bunch of singles are in now, and there's several doubles matches with Pit.

Aside from the single video that KID provided, all it consisted of was my games from Ooples, JUJment Day 2, and MLG Dallas, along with X's Dallas' run.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
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HOLY HELL theres a lot of vids in this thread

are half of them even relevant? Anything 2008 should be removed and really, anything < maybe july 09 too. Its just not relevant to anything and arent worth watching >_<
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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Separating them should do the trick. I don't see any reason to completely remove them. You never know what old old stuff winds up being relevant.
 

Kinzer

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Yay, finally a critique request! Oh hu hu~, this is delicious~!!

*Watches while eating.*

Alright first off, Homing Attack is bad and you should feel bad.

Second, you gotta give me the song that played on Smashville.

Third, you gotta-

...

Alright, I'll be serious.

First thing I have to ask you though: How long have you been playing Sonic? To me, it seems that a lot of it is just that Sonic still feel unorthodox to you. Perfectly understandable; that part I figure will work itself out overtime.

What I do need you to be consciously aware of though...

Kill that Spring > Dair habit. It got you punished, and I saw a lot of instances you could've been punished, but your opponent did not capitalize on.

You also have a tendency to use ASC. It got to the point where you killed yourself; twice I think. It's okay every now and then, but start approaching with Sonic's other stuff. Grabs, dash attacks, aerials, there's a multitude of ways.

Think of it as a means to punish, not mainly as an approach. I say mainly because even I have to admit I do every now and then to condition my opponents.

That in of it itself gives you different options attacks, like going into a Spin Dash Jump from a Spin Dash Roll, immediately jump-canceling and abort the first approach, or commit into a secondary assault, and things of that nature. I'm going on a rant here, but basically don't forget that you have other ways to get around.

You also like to do Bairs a lot. I mean, even more than normally. Bair is probably up there with one of Sonic's most useful attacks, but even that has a limit. Let me give you some ideas as to how to properly use Bair: Zoning, retreating with, and punishing. At low percents, it will be used to rack up damage, possible lead into other things. At high %, you'll want to use this as your staple kill-move.

Speaking of staple kill moves, you need to greatly reduce your FSmash and DSmash usage here. FSmash is a terrible move for anything but a predicted approach or a punisher. If you want to rack up damage, for for grabs/aerials/pseudo-combos. If you need to get a kill at high %s, use Bair/anything else that will kill in the given situation. FSmash only does 14% uncharged, and is very slow to come out. In that regard, it is outsped and outdone by other attacks that are much quicker and deal almost the same amount of damage; if not more. Yes, I say more because I expect you to pummel inbetween grabs, and while you can use any throw except D-Throw in every case, U-Throw will deal 12% damage unstaled per pop, and F-Throw with 9% unstaled per pop. I think I already went over how Bair is safer for killing at high percents but if not I'll go over that now.

Bair is Sonic's third strongest kill move in terms of knockback. FSmash and First hit DSmash outclass it. Barely. Here's the thing though, it happens to be faster than the first two mentioned in both start-up and cooldown lag, and it has the luxury of being an aerial; it can be done anywhere and you can keep moving while you use the move. You aren't committed to one place with all the lag like you are with the first two. It also happens to autocancel from a certain height, which gives it even more utility. For the most part, using Bair is safe on shields, and even moreso if you used it from a retreat; or from the momentum of a Spinshot.

Now for DSmash. Can't forget.

While better in terms of uses compared to FSmash, it's still best done seldom. It shines mainly as a means to punish an opponent trying to land on the ground and cannot really defend their way down. Best example would be a Marth that missed with Dolphin Slash; they have nowhere to go assuming there's no platform or stage hazard. I'll leave it to you to think of other cases, but I hope you have the idea. Charging it gives you some different things to work with, but that takes time and you have to make sure your opponent will not try to do anything before you get the chance to release. I plan to get frame data for Sonic sometime soon, but it feels as though the more the attack is charged, the greater the shield pushback is, and of course the shieldstun as well. Some characters despite that can still punish afterwards, but it has to be quick and far-reaching. It's also good to punish spotdodges with, and on the edge of a platform where they have little choice but to take the hit. The other parts of the attack come out faster and make this move feel even safer to use on shields thanks to them being stuck in lag and you recovering from it. It's hard to explain, but if the move hits with the later parts of the attack, it kind of leaves them unable to do much.

tl;dr save DSmash for punishes.

And Homing Attack. I really want to go over this since I just thought of a great way to learn when to use it. Generally, everytime you could've used Spring to save yourself, you probably didn't use Homing Attack properly. Now don't get me wrong, using it to stall your recovery is great. You get more distance and more height with it. Just make sure your opponent cannot pursue you offstage and punish you for attempting to stall your recovery. In that case, either just drift back to the stage like you would normally, or go ahead and Spring if recovering high is safer than lower.

It is very risky to use as a normal attack, and I recommend you not use it until you condition your opponents otherwise. Think of it like this:

If you've played a certain why enough times or long enough, you will have conditioned your opponent to acting or reacting in a certain way. It is also due to this move's rare usage that it also throws off many people despite Homing Attack being a terrible move. Terrible however does not mean "useless." Let's say you're trying to get down but an opponent is waiting for your landing with a charged smash attack. Using Dair to stall then fall might not work because it might come down on them too fast. Using the Spring coil to attack them would just have them attack the Spring unharmed, and now you're left with your cypher-fall. Homing Attack takes a while to come out, and then they'll have no choice but to let go of the charged smash attack too early and they'll be stuck in lag while your Homing Attack is coming down on them with nothing to stop you.

That's just an example, but once again I hope you see it as another means to mix-up attacks/landings; while mainly to use as a way to stall recovery mainly. It's still a pretty bad/risky move though, no thanks to the huge telegraph, and the horrendous endlag. If you have to use ti, make sure it hits them, and not their shield, or the ground, or missing.

I think that's it. You should be good to go afterwards.

:093:
 

Kuraudo

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Here's a little tidbit of advice on recovery as well. Your best choice of momentum canceling are one of two options.

FAir to second jump FAir, or FAir to Down B. FAir to Down B is far superior though, just be quick on releasing the Spin Charge, and this'll stop your flying momentum entirely and you'll come spinning back to the stage with a second jump intact. Side B (Spin Dash) is not recommended due to pulling back before the release, which can pull you into losing a stock.
 

Espy Rose

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HOLY HELL theres a lot of vids in this thread

are half of them even relevant? Anything 2008 should be removed and really, anything < maybe july 09 too. Its just not relevant to anything and arent worth watching >_<
That's a possibility.

However, I would like them to be stored somewhere.
It never hurts to archive history, Browny. :>

Perhaps I should just shove all of the "expired" content into another subsection, or something?

I don't know. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the current format. If anyone else has any issues concerning it, feel free to let me know.

I'm here to make it easier for people to find and watch videos. Making the format easier to read is something that helps that experience.
 

Browny

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Well firstly, the 'recent' vids should be at the top of every collapsed section, so switch the entire thing around imo.
 

stingers

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omg kinzer <3 thank you for that writeup. i'll try to take all of that into consideration

the song is K.K. Caramelldansen...I found it on KC-MM im pretty sure

and yeah I'm still working on my control over sonic. getting there...!
how often do I homing attack btw? i didnt think I did it much at all...
 

Kinzer

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You probably did it too much (in the wrong places), I bet.

No, this is one of few instance I'm not trolling.

:093:
 

da K.I.D.

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I feel like we need to have a discussion about when to use HA because we put forth the impression that it should never be used when even the most adamant people that have this notion use it a fair amount in the right circumstances (stares at kinzer.)

for example, if people are excessively shielding your spindashes, spindash to HA (or down air) will throw off peoples timing and they very often tend to hit when they are coming out of shield to try and punish you.

HA is also amazingly useful for people that really like to land camp you and grab you on landing while youre in the air. they will whiff the grab and not only will you get the free punish but then you get the added mental advantage of hitting somebody with HA, cus nobody likes getting hit by HA and it always frustrates people.

using it to recover from offstage is obvious but it should be noted that theres a much better chance of hitting with the recovery HA and not jus whiffing and getting the laggy landing right next to the opponent or just getting hit by whatever move they throw out, if you: 1. use the HA at a parallel height to the opponent, not higher or lower and 2. dont use it against characters that have a good frontal anti air move. (snakes up tilt, foxs up smash, mario brothers up smash.)
 

Tenki

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I was playing Speed on wifi the other night (they were really fun! XD), and he uses no-target reverse HA's offstage quite a bit. I don't know if it's a bait or just to be flashy though.

I love using HA as Sonic's "3rd jump" to punish dash grabbers :3

As for tricky uses, the only other thing I use somewhat actively is setting up a grounded spring, doing a spring cancelled aerial > d-air spam > HA.
 

Kinzer

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... :<

Roy's not here all that often anymore, somebody has to fill in for his burning hatred for this shadow of a once great move.

Don't blame me, blame Sakurai.

*Ahem.*

But I am a reasonable and a sort of compromising person. I do see the practical uses of Homing Attack (being far and between is irrelevant; it is capable of being used in Sonic's 100% metagame).

I do also see that despite the impractical uses, it still seems to shine forth at times. By that I mean as a direct/secondary attack.

Why though? That answer I believe only the individual can answer for themselves. If you ask me, I think it only works due to how infrequently it's used and thus the opponent would not normally (or ever) expect you to use the move against them so when you do end up using it they have not a clue. I could be wrong or I could be right, but I do not see a definite answer as of yet.

You would not in my right mind see me advocate for it (much), or attempt to use it where I do not believe it shouldn't be. You must also understand that I am only human though. If any of you care enough to look at any of my videos, yes you will see me throwing it out there; and I see both success and failure. I could not tell you why it worked when I either didn't mean to use it, or I didn't expect it to do much of anything. Maybe I subconsciously knew the right moment? Perhaps I figured "Bleh, I'm gonna lose if I don't do anything, I'll take this chance and see a better success ratio than (X)%." It could've very well even been used as a way to condition the opponent. *shrug.*

The main thing I'm trying to do is prevent that the new Sonic players that have joined this community do not make the same mistakes I have done. I almost purposefully go out of my way to try new things that others will have an easier time. I hope though that I have at least made it clear that Homing Attack comes with great risks, and more often than not only mediocre reward. If I've accomplished that then I've done my job of developing Sonic's overall metagame.

:093:
 

Tesh

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You wouldn't want to stifle progress by telling people to NEVER use a move though. Homing attack is situational but there are times where the distance of its arc does things that even spring can't.

Personally my favorite use for homing attack is upthrow-homing attack. It homes in even at 120+ and shoots you higher than spring.
 

da K.I.D.

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So does anyone else get that good feeling when they time their opponent out with Sonic?
the only person that can get away with intentionally going into a match to time somebody out is speed,otherwise, I wouldnt advise it. if the other guy is playing exceedingly safe and you have the lead with 2 min left. than by all means, get the free W.

but if they are attacking you. just beat them head up. trying to run away when its easier to kill them is dumb.
 

Tenki

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Personally my favorite use for homing attack is upthrow-homing attack. It homes in even at 120+ and shoots you higher than spring.
o.O

All I can imagine is someone fast falling and u-airing you to counter
 

Tesh

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Yes that happens sometimes. Usually they just airdodge then I ASC from above. Rarely the homing attack actually hits and you can do some nice spindash combos in the sky.
 

Kinzer

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Espy, I got a bunch of old videos I'd like for you to put up if you don't mind. May as well for the sake of a time-capsule of sorts...

*Ugh* I need to get better at keeping up with this crap. If I fall too behind, it gets outdated obviously, and then there's likely going to be mistakes in the details... *Sigh.*

Oh, and I do also have videos of Excel up. If anybody else would like to help him out, that'd be much appreciated. I can't really offer anything since I have little idea of Fox or Toon Link, and certainly no experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8tBTPtZfJc Kinzer(Sonic) Vs Kitamerby(Meta Knight)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5r2V4mJ1_I Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Kitamerby(Snake)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXz5YEKQglY BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper(G&W) 2 III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsVsBuP_rGo BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper(G&W) 3 III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C6YwCGIkHc BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper (G&W) 4 III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSFLYGktoho BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper(G&W) 5 III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XXCglhbYI BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper(G&W) 6 III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBgsi2q4U48 BAM(Sonic) Vs. Paper (G&@) 7 III
(You already have the first video of this recorded set up, don't worry about it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrPIdihoYl4 Excel(Sonic) Vs. Zephil(Toon Link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kPgT6wmQq0 Excel(Sonic) Vs. Zephil(Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPnDVwWNtfc Excel (Sonic) Vs. Zephil(Fox) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQ4EAslLg8 Excel(Sonic) Vs. Zephil(Fox) 3
 

Xaltis

Smash Hero
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the only person that can get away with intentionally going into a match to time somebody out is speed,otherwise, I wouldnt advise it. if the other guy is playing exceedingly safe and you have the lead with 2 min left. than by all means, get the free W.

but if they are attacking you. just beat them head up. trying to run away when its easier to kill them is dumb.


Well I did time out "Masky" a Wario main in florida who is known for timing people out.
 

JayBee

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I was playing Speed on wifi the other night (they were really fun! XD), and he uses no-target reverse HA's offstage quite a bit. I don't know if it's a bait or just to be flashy though.
yet another thang speed picked up from me. I used it as another recovery method so i can be a bit more unpredictable. but i honestly never use it, even tho i agree with Kid on it concerning blocked spin dash followups.

Edit: I really would like to try posting vids of me talking about sonic related things, and i would appreciate it if you guys would take time to comment on them and help me make it better with ideas, n stuff. i guess you can call it a podcast of sorts. my first topic is about how to beat sonic, and I'll be going over X's playstyle as a result, and talk about one of his mlg dallas matches as well.

lol don't know how this will turn out...
 

Kinzer

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lWSz5t8FHI Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Z'zgashi(Yoshi) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXrU4yMtIT4 Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Z'zgashi(Yoshi) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hktOihunQ7c Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Z'zgashi (Yoshi) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk7SyL4frXM Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Z'zgashi(Yoshi) 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQwDEGuWGO0 Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Zombe(Donkey Kong)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMT_o2pHz_g Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. SK92(Falco) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwGrPAMeqrE Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. SK92(Falco) 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=allrYjukCRA Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. HebrewHammer(MK) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATFoNyqjY64 Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. HebrewHammer(MK) 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Jo39kJww Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Lycan(Wolf)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rDWH91Yn2w Kinzer(Sonic) Vs. Lycan(Marth)

Welp, that's from the tourney this Saturday. I'd highly appreciate any critique any of you have for me; especially with Lycan's Wolf and SK92. Kyle seemed to learned how to BDACUS over the course of these last months, as if this matchup couldn't get anymore hopeless for me. :/ Urgh, and I messed up bad against Wolf, his air control and unorthodox movement make it really hard to hit. No excuse on that though, I'm gonna try to learn the Wolf MU and do better next time. I got straight up outplayed otherwise though.

In other news, Donkey Bong is totally free, and Homing Attack is actually a legit move against Pi-YOSHI!...

Thanks Ninjalink. Hope you're reading this, the advice helped me a bit.
 

Browny

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>_<

Kinzer, maybe try like you know, not running directly into falcos grab at 0% every stock? That was honestly frustrating for me to watch. Youve got so many approach options which are cancellable outside his grab range, aerials on the top of his shield and many others. Trying to grab him at low % is the complete wrong approach to that matchup :/ Most other aspects of your game are fine but youre making it too easy for Falco to have a free 80% + on you in a match.

Ill watch some others later...
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwGrPAMeqrE
lol kinzer :S

It looks like you only have one mode: goings towards the opponent. Wherever he is, you're just going straight towards him. Makes you reeal predictable :s just IMO
>_<

Kinzer, maybe try like you know, not running directly into falcos grab at 0% every stock? That was honestly frustrating for me to watch. Youve got so many approach options which are cancellable outside his grab range, aerials on the top of his shield and many others. Trying to grab him at low % is the complete wrong approach to that matchup :/ Most other aspects of your game are fine but youre making it too easy for Falco to have a free 80% + on you in a match.

Ill watch some others later...
Alright I hear ya. But how exactly do I go about another approach? It seems that if I go for a staple SpinShot Bair will only be returned with a Bair or a grab from the other side. Frontal assaults are met with lasers. That's part of why I still have a lousy approach, if any at all. I just don't know what I'm suppose to do. Perhaps I should start applying shield pressure on Falco and come back on the recoil when he can't shield another direct barrage? That seems to be the one good thing ASC does even if no hits connect.

You did so much better vs SK92 than I did, Kinzer. xD

and at 1:39 in the first MK video,

lolwut o.O ASC beats nado????
Yes sir. I would not recommend it though, Homing Attack/Spring Jump works best.

:093:
 
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