The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[Espy Rose]

The major problem I saw in X's style was the overuse of fsmash.

Not that it's a bad thing if it lands every time, but just look at those videos.
He tries fsmashing as a punish to a quick ending move, or straight out of dair.

If he used faster moves, or ran away, he could avoid damage and could potentially rack up their percentage without being punished so often for trying.

Also, as Malcolm himself said, he needs to utilize more dthrow combos with Dedede.

Fogo (Dedede main in Texas) and I played some friendlies against some teams, and it's not too hard to set several chains up, even with two opponents. Several examples were as simple as D3 dthrow to Sonic grab, pummel, and bthrow, the goal being to get that opponent off of the level and double team the other opponent while he's recovering.

Dedede dthrow on characters that can't be chain grabbed easily leads into a jab lock if they miss the tech, and if they're in a 2v1 or a 2v2 and the partner is busy recovering or something, that's a free Dedede fsmash.

These are just some ideas. Dedede dthrow to Sonic fsmash/bair/dsmash is also a good means of KOing if Dedede's KO power is shot to high hell for any given reason.

So yeah:

-Drop over-usage of fsmash as a basic punisher, and opt for faster methods
-Learn and implement Dedede throw set ups to build damage, put pressure on the opponents, and to score KOs.

Other than that, those were some good vids to watch.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I really want to see some recent singles videos of him.

Until then, I will reserve judgement

 

[Espy Rose]

That's all fine and good. I'm just looking at X as a doubles player here, and I'm pretty sure everyone else is too.

 

[B.A.M.]

I got some friendlies with him and friends if you guys want. i just need to send the replays to someone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Arcadia (Falco) vs. da K.I.D. Goggles (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWc_htoZYw 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOHtlNJAycY 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzYOEpfUqEo 3

Loser's Finals:
da K.I.D. Goggles (Sonic) vs. Arcadia (Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyOLS7RjIUo 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2MjzRxiKM 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnWfghgnZj0 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L5kga0YD0g 4

Winner's Finals:
JNig vs. da K.I.D. Goggles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO19eO94UpM 1 Wario vs. Sonic


i think i playing the falco matchup really well aside from the fact that i couldnt beat phantasm to save my life.

 

[B.A.M.]

KID ur allowing him to get the grab to easily. you've got to space him out more than that. use Spin Dash right outside his ftilt range. If he laser approaches, release and ull go thru his laser and get that silly bird. He cant really approach the spin dash once its already out, those invincibility frames aid you so well in this matchup. dtilt shenanigans if you can. I saw a bit of Dash grabs so watch out for that. up air juggle traps work very well here due to his fall speed. Also uair uair spring uair works better than most on falco from my experience. you also need to react more quickly; those dash attacks of his shouldnt be work as well as they were.

uthrow to uptilt is better on falco than uthrow to upsmash. Remember is fall speed; uptilt will cover more options. SDSC to another grab is nice too or even SDSC > dtilt lock>ftilt> tech chase (or low land camping depending on di.) You are too close at times, you got to mess with falcos spacing, boxing range is a no.

I wish you got that 1st match, you really shouldve. I saw some good things, but u got to maintain appropriate spacing. That is simply do to the fact falco will eventually win out if u play that close range game with him. Too many automatic ADs for no reason; ur just giving him follow ups. And dont be afraid to spring away if necessary. Attempted Uairs by falco are a bait; they get virtually any aerial of their choosing if u AD. Also towards the end you shouldve grabbed the ledge during his phantasm. You conditioned him the whole time with punishing phantasm (well some what) so read into that.

Something to help you KID on punishing the phantasm (which definitely helps in this match) is watching his spacing. theres a certain heights for the phantasm. Either right on stage or the ledge. So expect it, the moment he crosses that horizontal line prep urself with an ftilt. if he delays slightly hes either going for the ledge or going to double jump. watch their patterns, but most importantly watch their height vs the stage.

Its funny cuz ur crouch mindgames ( or maybe u were doing it due to the lasers) were working and yet YOU got punished instead. Lastly falco is light. Dont need to force the kill; as sonic we gotta be comfortable with getting that late kill at times. A moment will come if not. rack up damage to gain more KO options.

2nd match: what happened to the dtilt lock? you yourself used to scorn those who would simply turn around and dtilt again. Learn to SDSC and shield dash to sustain that spacing if he moves. Again good use of Spin dash, however remember ur fighting falco, spin dash should done on reaction. watch what they do. Especially with falco theyll probably do alot of side steps when its seen so just wait and release. Land camping with Spin dash works as well going thru their aerials; you can again simply react accordingly.
Love Dsmash baits as always. Also please dont crouch before you dtilt. hold down slightly to do it instantly . i wouldve gone for ftilt there given the spacing but thats just me. 2nd stock : KID...... the first thing you did is get grabbed. You have to play safer than that especially vs Falco beginning percents. Good break out though SDSC reatreating jumps help if u change ur mind if ur were initially going offensive. When falco is in the air, space that uair if he AD i believe we get a free DJ uair if buffered. Last stock: you played him very well KID and got that kill. you spaced him appropriately and took that stock. His last stock, you did well. You gotta wait sometimes vs falco man. You have to know what you can and cannot punish. At ur distance you shouldve known u werent getting that grab especially that dash grab on falco. running up and waiting was ur best option. Also this guy just throws out kill moves like no tomorrow when ur in kill percentage. As a player you have to identify, bait it and punish. Also lol at you gravitating toward falco most effective range for the kill.

Those are all the matches i had time to watch, good ish KID. You can beat him for sure, just watch him at the right spacing so u can punish him on reaction then go for your followups. Take his fall speed into consideration as well when u follow up. ftilting, shield grab, usmash and utilt his landing make it hard for falco. Also falco suffers from fair chasing at early percents because he tacks on landing lag again due to his fall speed. DTHROW HIM AT THE EDGE IF HE ISNT TECHING IT. Grab the ledge vs phantasm, you gotta be unpredictable there. you can get some good damage and a gimp if you are able to read his recovery patterns. Bait dumb recoveries with jabs and dtilts.

Lastly be wary of falco's KO moves. He too is deprived of KO moves so remember when u get to those percents! Im glad you're getting better at your followups KID. And remember our spacing is alot wider than others. Oh yeah i forgot, Dsmash the spotdodge if theyre being stupid about it or use a multihitting move rapid jab utilt fair usmash FTILT ( i swear that move is more legit that i initially thought.) One more thing ( sorry this is so long KID) HA is a sound mixup vs punishing the recovery. If they like to wait DJ and phantasm, HA will catch them at phantasm height and gimp at stupid percents. (See Wes vs Bloodcross?)

Keep doing work KID

 

[WedginatorX]

I got some friendlies with him and friends if you guys want. i just need to send the replays to someone.

I'll record 'em with my dazzle if you want me to.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo syon, first of all, i ***** him so hard the beginning of that first match, that i sandbagged, and let him come back and win, but what i did up to that point was amazing.

second, watch the second set, half of the stuff that you are telling me to do, I did or at least attempted in that match, i actually got gayed by homing attack on the castle siege match, I pulled off the wes gimp, but instead of killing him, it reverse hit him and sent him back to the stage. i was so pissed.

how does up tilt cover more options than up smash, up tilt has crap horisontal range, so i barely ever use it.

also in the second set a lot of the times i was camping his kill moves like a boss.

 

[Espy Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSUlTUkbEmk - X/Beef vs Tyrant/DSF 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNo8RVGOWSU - X/Beef vs Tyrant/DSF 2

and singles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqmTCwZlaE - X vs. Zex (Meta Knight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-D80Mw_eGQ - X vs. Zex (Marth)

 

[0mega 75]

Scourge?!?!?!?

Yes, umad?

 

[Kupo Rose]

So many people goin Scourge lately lol.

 

[~TBS~]

I got some new replays from Gameworld Weekly Tournament yesterday. Not too happy with my performance. Results aren't posted yet, but i pretty much got dead last

Tails (Sonic) vs. Firebullet (Diddy) I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTJvpacauA

Tails (Sonic) vs. Firebullet (Diddy) II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9azCzswT4s

MetalFalcon (DK) vs. Tails (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukBmHtd61lQ

MetalFalcon (Zelda) vs. Tails (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3w97AXJGnw

MetalFalcon (ROB) vs. Tails (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEkOpjej13g

I made so many mistakes, but I don't know the exact mistakes I made. If anyone can help, that would be greatly appreciated

If you find that Diddy is overpowering you with the nanners, sometimes it is just best to throw them offstage. (Well, this is from my own experience.) Also, be careful with the spindash recoveries, as diddy loves

Spoiler

to make you love his nuts

mess up your recovery and throw you offstage with those. Also, i noticed that you always go into a run around everytime you hit someone away. Sometimes (not always) its good to go for a tech chase. On the YI match, you played it right. A bit more ISDR could have been better though when you lost the lead.


EDIT
I hate scourge. Sonic Sawnik all day
Gah, im being time constrained...i'll have to watch the rest later.

 

[0mega 75]

I dont really main scourge, but I desided to put that as my texture for now.

 

[Commander_Beef]

X and CBeef had some cool team videos. U guys work really well together. A small criticism is that X needs to stop going offstage to edgeguard and let his opponents recover while u guys do Dthrow ---> Fsmash or w/e team combos you could manage. I saw quite a few times where he went offstage (not to save u) to edgeguard MK and got punished when you both could have 2v1'd and scored a kill through dthrow setups or racked damage. Thats my only little criticism...no flames.

Oh thanks for finding those Malcolm! The first match was a great one...we had it going there. Yeah I'll coach X a little bit more on team tactics and definitely the things you told me. We have enormous potential and honestly, I think my King Dedede is a better partner for Sonic than Meta Knight or other characters. A Snake would do well with him but they wouldn't have any consistent team combos like King Dedede and Sonic would. I camp and support his Sonic while he does the obvious.

That's all fine and good. I'm just looking at X as a doubles player here, and I'm pretty sure everyone else is too.

Oh and whoever said that X spams forward smash a lot...[and it was true for one match or two of doubles] He doesn't do it AS often in singles, and the matches with Zex kinda prove that.
From what i think of my theory-crafting, I think forward smash should be used more often in doubles anyways, to get them offstage, especially when the other guy is really close to Sonic. The priority of the move helps too. He seems to kill the enemies nicely with back air and forward smash at times anyways, so they don't seem to get stale, lmao.

 

[B.A.M.]

ey then good ish then KID if you were doing so. Keep handling business. and uptilt ***** u just have to follow DI. Usually what works is DI chase with shff uairs. if they AD follow as ur ff the uair and use utilt. try it. it does have a terrible horizontal range but its quicker has enough multiple hits to catch the few landing frames if they AD at a good height and it quicker i believe. shff uair to utilt does well on snakes too by the way. In any case you are definitely getting that matchup KID just work on being more solid with it. And the phantasm punishment.

 

[sonictailslink]

If you find that Diddy is overpowering you with the nanners, sometimes it is just best to throw them offstage. (Well, this is from my own experience.) Also, be careful with the spindash recoveries, as diddy loves

Spoiler

to make you love his nuts

mess up your recovery and throw you offstage with those. Also, i noticed that you always go into a run around everytime you hit someone away. Sometimes (not always) its good to go for a tech chase. On the YI match, you played it right. A bit more ISDR could have been better though when you lost the lead.


EDIT
I hate scourge. Sonic Sawnik all day
Gah, im being time constrained...i'll have to watch the rest later.

Thanks for some tips. Diddy Kong just drives me crazy with those banana peels. With the SDRi on YI, I've been trying to do it less since I had the bad habit of over using it which resulted to be too predictable. I know I need to mix up my gameplay. I never noticed that I'll keep going into a run around when i hit someone away. I'll try to tech chase a bit more.

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh and whoever said that X spams forward smash a lot...[and it was true for one match or two of doubles] He doesn't do it AS often in singles, and the matches with Zex kinda prove that.

That was me who said that. Just remember that I also said I was analyzing him as a doubles partner. I figured he played differently in singles.

Sonic plays differently in doubles than in singles, so it's natural.

As for the rest of your post, while that may be true, the same thing can be done with throws or aerials, while saving his KO moves for later, higher percentages.

Either way is pretty effective, it's landing those fsmashes that matters. The issue is that he used it way more than necessary, and got punished several times because of it.

 

[infomon]

From X's singles vids, I noticed he doesn't do these things:
- spinshot
- Uair OoS (does he use ever jump-cancel shields? maybe idk)
- walk or DDP (or approach with anything other than spindash rly lol)

Just pointing it out, hopefully maybe give him some more mixup ideas

 

[Kuraudo]

I think X just focuses hardcore on a more simplistic playstyle. Something that gets the job done. And it WORKS.

 

[JayBee]

how this guy doesn't get punished for spindashes is amazing. he controls the options well so its hard to punish. then hell do upBto punish OoS counterattack attempts. It reminds me of how G&Ws will Up B after certain moves to avoid counter attacks, float away and land safely.

 

[-Mars-]

X is so annoying to fight you guys have no idea.....I think imma pick MK and tornado over and over again and see where that gets me next time I play him.

 

[Kinzer]

You won't get far, X =/= me.

Good night folks, these past few days have been interesting as of late.

 

[Joemama8]

sleeeeeeeeep tight.....

 

[MalcolmM]

Respect what works. CBeef I've never actually teamed with a d3 as sonic, but you both made it look very effective. U might wanna try working on some setups out of his dthrow. People really dont tech it as often as they should so maybe an uptilt for d3? I would be interested in what you guys worked out if you keep teaming with each other. If they do end up teching it consistantly its still a free grab for your d3. Just food for thought.

 

[da K.I.D.]

X is so annoying to fight you guys have no idea.....I think imma pick MK and tornado over and over again and see where that gets me next time I play him.

dont you play Shiek? cant you just run away and throw needles at him when he spins at you?
i think I can give most people a step by step walkthough on how to beat X if they ask, cus to be honest, it doesnt look like it would be too hard. for the most part, it would look a lot like Zex vs X 1.

also, sonic plus (insert heavy character here) is pretty much always a really good team.

 

[-Mars-]

I do play Sheik and Sheik only....the MK thing was a joke, honestly I probably don't play the matchup correctly at all....I don't get ***** or anything like that but can't ever take a game off him it pisses me off lol. I'm not even that scrubby either i'm just not a smart player and don't adapt well to stuff in-game....i'll go back and look at something and then be like"oh what an idiot I am".

Lol but yea i'll take any help I can get. Needles against Sonic aren't that great from the matches i've experienced because he just cancels into a shield, ftilt isn't as effective against Sonic either because he can spring out if I don't have the decay right. *shrugs* I know I play the MU wrong and i'm just going to have to keep playing it until I get it down but in the meantime it's soooooooo annoying losing to a Sonic lmao.

<3 X though.

 

[Joemama8]

it's soooooooo annoying losing to a Sonic lmao.

Don't hate

 

[da K.I.D.]

shut up, you have no idea what its like.

losing to sonic is one of the worst experiences in brawl. trust me.

 

[Espy Rose]

Lol but yea i'll take any help I can get. Needles against Sonic aren't that great from the matches i've experienced because he just cancels into a shield, ftilt isn't as effective against Sonic either because he can spring out if I don't have the decay right. *shrugs* I know I play the MU wrong and i'm just going to have to keep playing it until I get it down but in the meantime it's soooooooo annoying losing to a Sonic lmao.

The needles force him to approach via dashing and jumping toward you. X seems to focus on SDR approaches, so shutting his main means of offense down with the needles by forcing him to shield to avoid damage is probably better than actually hitting him with them. It forces him to approach in a way that he may not be as precise or as effective with.

If the videos we've seen show his core play-style, then needles, or any character's projectile for that matter, would without a doubt nearly block out all of his spin dash-based game.

As for ftilt:

Ftilt, then call out the UpB. Now Sonic's in a bad position, and is limited to only a handful of options.

X also tends to focus on two things from dair: Spot dodges and fsmashes. Expect this, and punish accordingly.

Of course, this is just going off of the videos of him vs. Zex and him in doubles. While he DOES have a different style in doubles, several elements of his singles play style are still visible.

Hope that helps.

 

[-Mars-]

Thanks Espy!!!! <3 much love ta ya bro.

Oh and yea that is his core playstyle cept he's smart so i'm pretty sure he changes it for certain matchups....like when he plays Falco he plays more conservatively with dash shields and whatnot. Dat ****** loves him some fsmash though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i had a nice long post similar to espys but my cpu deleted it.

also, f smash is really laggy, and the only reason he does it so much (as with any good move) is that hes not being punished for it as much or as hard as he should.

think about metaknight, only the really bad mks down smash more than once in a row now, because all the good people have figured out that you can just jump over the down smash and hit him with your aerial of choice.

if you know he wants to f smash and its a really laggy move, just do what all us sonics do, bait and punish it.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Rofl at you guys getting this guy loaded and ready to take X down next time.

 

[Espy Rose]

Rofl at you guys getting this guy loaded and ready to take X down next time.

We're probably helping him, actually.

Being forced out of your comfort zone allows you to try out new strategies and setups which can help you in the future.

For example, I know **** well that the way I played back in '08 and early '09 wouldn't work now, because my opponents forced me to adapt to their counter-strategies for my original approach method.

While I can still revert to that approach when necessary, I have also allowed myself to expand my options by learning a variety of different options.

Besides, there's no guarantee that it'd work anyways. X is placing for a reason.

 

[infomon]

shut up, you have no idea what its like.

losing to sonic is one of the worst experiences in brawl. trust me.

I reeally want to sig this, lol

 

[Exceladon City]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J58goPRLJw&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ACvLdHMuM&feature=channel

MM against Ripple. Critique away.

 

[infomon]

Oreo, you gotta learn the matchup, you left soooo many missed opportunities.
ex. DK whiffs a smash, you punish him for it.

Learn to aerial OoS as punishment, also when he whiffs something, run in + grab him.

At pictochat, there was a time when he was hit way off at the right (after you beasted him inside the eyes transformation lol), and he was doin his up-B off the stage, and it was obvious that he was gonna go for the edge, but you didn't instant-ledgehog him, just waited for him instead

and then later you up-B'd without having jumped first so you didn't make it back to the stage.

Stop rolling into DK, instead just punish him. Use sonic's groundspeed, and lay off the spindash so much.

 

[B.A.M.]

can i send some of X's replays and mine to someone?

 

[Browny]

ex. DK whiffs a smash, you punish him for it.

This x9001

It was like, more than maybe 120% damage you lost by simply not punishing DK's stuff. Punish fsmash + giant punch with stuff like fair. its quick, does a lot of damage (by sonics standards) and puts DK in a bad position where you can punish just about anything he does from there, go for a double fair or grab him on landing is pretty safe.

 

[sonictailslink]

can i send some of X's replays and mine to someone?

If you want, you can send it to me and I'll upload them. It might take me some time to upload because of school and I'll be getting a new laptop hopefully sometime this coming week.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Punishing DK's F-smash isn't safe. That ***** will punch you.