The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[Kuraudo]

If so, he'll just make your grenades drop in midair. lmao

 

[Camalange]

trying to use snake's grenades against him does not work, and never will work >.< lol

 

[Kuraudo]

That's why I tend to either throw them away, or up, or down to bounce.

 

[da K.I.D.]

even if snake nade strips you, if you have enough time to grab it, if you just do a reverse glide toss toward him (roll toward the snake, and throw the nade behind you) it makes for a pretty good approach, since they usually dont expect it.

and thats only a very small part of what im working on.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, if any of you have followed Espy way back in the day, you make get a sense of Deja'vu watching these matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csKBTk3WWck

Kinzer (Sonic) Vs. HebrewHammer (MK) I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5RAxVCRC3o&feature=channel

Kinzer (Sonic) Vs. HebrewHammer (MK) II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvq4HSROQ04

Kinzer (Sonic) Vs. HebrewHammer (MK) III

I was doing worse moreso than usual against the more reknowned Vegassmash players, including "The Jew" as we call HebrewHammer in our community. At least I did better against people who have recently been giving me trouble, like Fox and Diddy. I could only get this recorded though, and I'm glad I did.

I'm just letting y'all know, you should've been there when I had a crowd behind me. Not that I would expect anybody to really have my back except Tails who was at the time receiving too much pain from his headache to offer anything but motivational/emotional support; but it's kind of funny. People go on and on about how Meta Knight is ******** and how anybody who plays him "doesn't really (or shouldn't) get too much respect", but I actually had the crowd cheer AGAINST ME. It doesn't really bother me, I am not surprised that not even being the underdog, Sonic doesn't get any help.

If I were a better player, obviously it wouldn't have went down like this. That's why I need any (and preferably all of you) to lend me nothing but the harshest criticism you have. This even includes KID if anybody can let him know (but I'm not holding my breath...)

I know once I'm done posting this, some of you will also be waiting to tell me that I could've done better If I would just stop playing Sonic.

I'm afraid that advice in particular, will fall on deaf ears, and that you can't troll a troll.

 

[Kuraudo]

Run away more.

Keep your shield fresh so that when you power shield his tornado, you just punish and ****. It's what I do if the MK player is stupid enough to stay in with a tornado. The shield break made me cringe.

 

[Browny]

kinzer dude why did you keep on attacking the tornado? so many times you could have avoided it by shielding, jumping airdodging or anything but you just kept on running into it. just wait for it to end and punish. if you cant punish, run away again... at least you reset the situation without taking damage as oppose to taking some >_<

 

[Kinzer]

I've had my first stock gone because I shielded too much... I suppose the fear of having done that once is enough to drastically change the way I'd play.

There's no excuse for me falling into so many tornadoes though, I need some of Umby's Purple drank or whatever he has, it may just help me slow my roll and actually play gay back.

I didn't want to have to do it, but people think doing that BS is funny, and I for one don't feel like losing anymore money for such a dumb reason.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Why the **** do you try to punish stuff with Sonic's f-smash. It's slow, and weak. So, not only is it too slow to punish most things, it's also too weak to kill anything below like, 140% in most cases.

 

[Kupo Rose]

^^^ troll O_o

I'm pretty sure Sonic can kill MK at under 140% since he's not exactly Ike.

But no, give Kinzer a break. At least he got that MK down last stock each of the games without gaying the metaknight back.

That guy was spamming nado so much like his **** depended on it. I'd probably Fsmash that guy too

Spoiler

irl

if he kept doin it thinkin it's comical, even if the crowd was

Spoiler

oddly

supporting him.

I did notice though Kinzer, did you miss those 2 big jablock opportunities? Or did you not care about it at the time? 1st in smashville, right at the edge but you held your shield quite long then just used the full jab combo on him, 2nd one, same scenario at the edge of halberd (1st part).

Why did you keep on approaching him though? You had a good stock lead at the 2nd match. Remembering back how you held against SK92's campy Wario, you shouldn't have lost that stock so easily.

HomingAttack cancelling Nado is quite a bad gamble :/ You're better off running (can you Run OoS?) or Boku'ing it (lol) VSDJ > Double Jump > (maybe Spring?) if you're trying to avoid the constant nado abuse.

And for something not really relevant~
You went Scourge. Should've shown no pity or shame and just gay him back.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I said in most cases, now didn't I? It most likely would not have killed MK anyways, because he was constantly using it to punish.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Dare I say he whiffed a Ftilt into a Fsmash?
Forgive me, but I actually cannot see (or get the hint from your last post) sugguesting "in most cases".

 

[Camalange]

Depends on the stage, where on the stage it was done (how close to the blastzone) how decayed it is, if the MK can DI/MC properly, etc.

Fsmash is pretty mediocre. It has surprisingly good range though. Sadly it's easily punished if shielded and it does start up rather slow :/

Hypnosmash is ****in broken though.

 

[Kinzer]

Why the **** do you try to punish stuff with Sonic's f-smash. It's slow, and weak. So, not only is it too slow to punish most things, it's also too weak to kill anything below like, 140% in most cases.

I'm trying to find some way to consistently connect FSmash to hit MK out of Tornado. So far, little to no success at all. I blame my bad spacing, or just my bad not knowing how to play the MU properly.

But no, give Kinzer a break. At least he got that MK down last stock each of the games without gaying the metaknight back.

That guy was spamming nado so much like his **** depended on it. I'd probably Fsmash that guy too

Spoiler

irl

if he kept doin it thinkin it's comical, even if the crowd was

Spoiler

oddly

supporting him.

I did notice though Kinzer, did you miss those 2 big jablock opportunities? Or did you not care about it at the time? 1st in smashville, right at the edge but you held your shield quite long then just used the full jab combo on him, 2nd one, same scenario at the edge of halberd (1st part).

Why did you keep on approaching him though? You had a good stock lead at the 2nd match. Remembering back how you held against SK92's campy Wario, you shouldn't have lost that stock so easily.

HomingAttack cancelling Nado is quite a bad gamble :/ You're better off running (can you Run OoS?) or Boku'ing it (lol) VSDJ > Double Jump > (maybe Spring?) if you're trying to avoid the constant nado abuse.

You went Scourge. Should've shown no pity or shame and just gay him back.

Nop. I specifically asked that I get nothing but harsh criticism.

It wasn't working, so if you were any bit smart, you wouldn't be like me and try to keep doing the same thing until it works. You'd find something else to do, that's the whole point of Sonic.

Must've let the pressure get to me/it slipped my mind. However I will say that I might've just froze on the first part because I was expecting him to try to wake-up and do a get-up attack. When we was taking too long to do that, I just said "f*** it" and hit him back up and offstage. I need to rewatch the second match to see what you're talking about.

Edit: Just watched the 2nd match. I honestly didn't expect him to not tech or get put into the situation to be jab-locked... but I suppose I'm too used to playing people who are actually good with true skill at this game... yeah I said it, I'm just venting at this point.

I suppose I haven't fully realized that there isn't one person out there who isn't going to be dong this bull on a normal basis. I'll be honest, when I first played Kyle in-tourney, I was expecting him to sandbag just a little bit, or more hopefully play Falco against me. I got caught off-gaurd with what I'd have to put up with. I guess I can use the same john here, but then that'd be wrong, because I should've known from the get-go that "the Jew" would play it out like this. I suppose I need to start understanding that people will do the most lowest of things just to get a win. How pitiful though, When I try to have the most fun out of the game and not make the opponent too annoyed, some don't want to return the same favor... I understand better now what Malcolm was saying when he must've been at this level too... Regardless, I just need to play better, it's just as satisfying, if not much more satisfying to me when people play really Gay and still lose.

I'm not so sure about that. Homing Attack is somehow built to be anti-tornado. For best results, you have to do it when you've above MK, so that it won't curve into the hitbox, or you won't fall into the hitbox trying to reach MK's back, which is where Homing Attack is (suppose to) aim for. I agree however that when he's really close and you don't have time to wait for Homing Attack's lag, you're much better off running away. I need to do that more next time, I didn't think about that this time around.

Son, this isn't Nintendo. Scourge likes to play with his subjects, not toss them aside and be over with them. But I suppose for the unruly, different measures will have to be done.

I said in most cases, now didn't I? It most likely would not have killed MK anyways, because he was constantly using it to punish.

True. I wonder if it's any bit justifiable though. FSmash does 14% damage, and let's face it, Sonic isn't going to be killing anytime soon. For Sonic's standards, that's some great damage.

 

[Kuraudo]

I've begun to get the timing down on hitting the FSmash on Meta Knight in his Tornado. Don't ever lean on it as a crutch because if you screw up in the slightest, you're gonna get wrecked, but, it's an option always left open for you. Personally, I wait until the tornado ends as I powershield.

Shield tornado, run, get your shield back up, rinse and repeat and punish.

 

[Camalange]

Bair also beats tornado once you can find the spacing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so does ASC.

 

[Kupo Rose]

If you're really ambitious.

Dair too.

(remembers a post by Camalange long ago about scoring a star KO on a MK with Sonic's Dair lol)

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

1. F-smash starts up too slow to truly punish a lot of the things that you actually did punish. What I mean is, he could have shielded most of them, and punished you for your laggy *** F-smash.

2. Trying to use F-smash to punish tornado is dumb. Sure, it's technically possible for F-smash to beat out tornado, but it's not something that should be constantly tried for. Why? Because MK has the advantage in the situation. You're stuck in your position with your attack, while MK has the freedom to move around with his hitbox constantly surrounding him. So, just about all of the time, your F-smash is going to miss. This has nothing to do with Sonic's spacing. The F-smash only lands when the MK is dumb enough to get hit by it while using tornado.

3. Sonic sucks.

 

[Kupo Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQE4flQ_fbM#t=05m59s
Am I gettin infracted for this?

 

[Kuraudo]

Extra bonus points for you.

FSmash through MK's tornado is a good thing. Not a crutch to lean on constantly, but a good thing. More then anything though, it's just better to powershield the nado like I said.

 

[Camalange]

(remembers a post by Camalange long ago about scoring a star KO on a MK with Sonic's Dair lol)

you remember that? lmao wow, good ****.
i<333youmoar<333

--

on a side note, most moves beat tornado if you're smart, lol. it's a matter of if the mk is dumb enough to fall for said move. best option is to shield and punish after, like previously mentioned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if an MK nadoes your shield he should get punished with out fail, everytime.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic's just too fast. He can punish it all day, errday.

 

[Kinzer]

1. F-smash starts up too slow to truly punish a lot of the things that you actually did punish. What I mean is, he could have shielded most of them, and punished you for your laggy *** F-smash.

2. Trying to use F-smash to punish tornado is dumb. Sure, it's technically possible for F-smash to beat out tornado, but it's not something that should be constantly tried for. Why? Because MK has the advantage in the situation. You're stuck in your position with your attack, while MK has the freedom to move around with his hitbox constantly surrounding him. So, just about all of the time, your F-smash is going to miss. This has nothing to do with Sonic's spacing. The F-smash only lands when the MK is dumb enough to get hit by it while using tornado.

3. Sonic sucks.

1. I see.

2. Understood.

3 You's trollin'~!

 

[JayBee]

im also trying to get fsmash to hit nados. the problems are:

F smash is slow startup; nado is not. Not only do i have to angle it upwards (since most nados will be airborne) I have to

be baiting it from a distance, and

Get the Meta to want to basically do it often, which they will if they feel like they can't properly get in.


That is all suspect. to the meta's skill level and how quick i can react, and i can still fail. just run kinzer.

 

[B.A.M.]

VSDJ, VSDJ> HA, Full Hop OoS > Aerial spinshot, Spring>Dair ( as long as the spring hits back itll propel him into dair everytime) are my usual options versus Nado. Foxtrot away> stutter step uptilt fsmash aids me if i want to bait the Nado for the kill. Sometimes full hop dairs take care of it, along with running upsmashes if timed appropiately (seriously upsmash goes thru anything when timed correctly, hurray for virtually nonexistent hurtbox). Also if you do run or space yourself from Nado, you can follow it with a Fair toward the end of the Nado and fair will cancel out the last hits and allow you to hit metaknight.

EDIT: I just watched some of those videos Kinzer, and that should not be happening. Nado is not that good against Sonic, and even if it was, thats all he was doing; dair and nado. What would help you infinitely in this matchup Kinzer so stupid crap like this doesnt happen, is knowing Sonics spacing. Sonics best at mid-range, there is where you can spin dash cancel effectively, watch peoples habits, and approach properly because of sonics myriad of mixups. You need to be watching the opponent carefully; especially for sonic ( how else do we get our sexy followups?) You shouldve interrupted his Nado startup every single time with a fair or simply powershielded and punished. Also running fair will destroy meta in glide mode always remember that. Also remember Kinzer to rack up damage when edgeguarding meta; his slow air speed makes his jumps usually insufficient to return with. So they usually use a B move or a glide all which can be punished with running fairs or in the case of nado just wait and punish. Again when you mixup your spin dash cancels or even a lil DDP if youre sound with it, Metaknight shouldnt really know what to do. Then you can get some good damage or shield pressure (ASC>upsmash OoS love) with ASC combos.And while SH FF Fairs and dtilts are good, there is punishable lag and once they commit to anything, u can use sonic speed to punish. You have to stay at that distance though; thats how we pressure. Lastly, and i know every1 has already talked about it ( me included) but you have to punish Nado first then we can talk about the real matchup. You cant do that, then you might as well use Falco or Diddy because that meta will Nado you all day.

Its 2010, Nado isnt an end all be all for most of the cast now. You have to show them that its not going to work, give them a Spin Dash Combo or a uthrow to teach them a lesson, heck even a running upsmash or DA. The meta needs to know they cant win that move. You are better than that Meta, Kinzer. Heck i would cheer for that meta too, that fool suxs. You shouldve annihilated him. Pfft Scourge is a noob, Dark Super Sonic all day.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the only problem here is that all of these options are assuming that mk is using tornado to attack you (stupidly) instead of using it to defend himself (intelligently). sure if the mk is a third of the stage away and approaches with nado, we can pretty much **** it.

But you cant just look at the best possible situation, you have to look at the worst possible situations as well. like what if you try to spin dash him for punishment, and he nadoes, you just took 5-15% and you are in a horrible position(right above MK)

or what if the guy doesnt know how to DI up throw so you go for a up throw follow up kill at 140% but instead you spring right into his nado at the top of the screen and you die at 30.

or if hes on a platform above you on BF and you go to fair him and he just nadoes, eats your move and does 5-15% and puts you in a bad position once again.

those are the kinds of things you need to learn how to deal with. not bullcrap like

"he nadoes at me from the other side of the screen so i can just charge an f smash and beat it"

thats stupid and no tournament worthy mk is going to do that unless he is WAY too cocky.

 

[B.A.M.]

And so Sonic isnt Spin Dash Canceling to protect himself? Its the same thing. Problem is Nado isnt moving as fast as a Spin Dash. You know how fast a Spin Charge can be once its released. Mid-range is like around half of BF maybe a little less. A metaknight isnt reacting to something that fast. Thats stupid. And when he nados he will get punished for that. And lets face it, that isnt a tournament worthy MK. As far a solid MK goes theyre not Nado spamming like that for that reason. If you spin dash for punishment, you should be paying attention to your target, i think thats pretty obvious. If he has ample time for nado you DJ and DI away. If they follow, Dair the center or spring then Dair. Come on now KID you're going like Sonic has to commit to a spin dash; if he did Sonic would be the crappiest character period. No tournament worthy Sonic should be doing that.

"or what if the guy doesnt know how to DI up throw so you go for a up throw follow up kill at 140% but instead you spring right into his nado at the top of the screen and you die at 30."

That would be Sonic's spacing KID thats should never happen. No sonic should be dying from a spring follow up, you watch the DI and space accordingly. He shouldnt be caught by any nado.

The beauty of Sonic is his speed. Its would be logical to space yourself just outside your opponents range yet within yours seeing as you can simply dash in and close the distance along with SDSC to shield if needed.

"or if hes on a platform above you on BF and you go to fair him and he just nadoes, eats your move and does 5-15% and puts you in a bad position once again."

You jump airdodge away, you should be ding up and away anyways if you were caught within it. Secondly, thats a stupid situation because dependent on where the sonic is that nado isnt happening which is what im getting at KID. Proper spacing; thats like saying a meta is nadoing from the otherside of FD or something stupid. People dont interrupt nadoes? heck kinzer did it once within his last video. it takes time to come out, and at a good distance ESPECIALLY sinces hes on a platform above you, that scenario isnt happening unless he went for the nado first. Sonic shouldnt be all that close in the first place, he shouldve distanced himself to being right next to the platform seeing as all MK would have in this instance would be aerials and specials, and bait a reaction and go if that opening if there. To solve that scenario, Tenki said it already man, you DI away from any of MKs attacks sans kill moves. Kill moves you DI up.

Im not telling him to approach blindly KID, im telling him to bait and mixup at the appropriate spacing where you cant get punished and then take the opening when necessary. There is a certain spacing for sonic that is amazing, simply due to the fact ppl cant react in time and hes just outside their attack range meaning they have to make some kind of commitment and Sonic is a character who doesnt have to commit too much to anything. I hope you get what i mean by that. I understand what you are saying; tell him how to escape if he gets hit. Im telling him how to let it happen less. I think that makes far more sense. And lol at fsmashing Nado from the other side of the stage. I sure as hell didnt say anything about that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the mindset of "he shouldnt be able to react fast enough to do anythign about _____" is faulty reasoning.

1. you dont know how fast somebodys reflexes are, ive seen ally and m2k do some pretty rediculous stuff, and if you are trying to be the best, doing stuff that only works because people arent as good or as fast as they could be is only setting yourself up for failure later on.

2. this isnt melee, its not all based on reflexes anyway. the majority of this game is prediction and to be honest most sonic are very predictable with their spindash timings. so even if the nado is slow to start up, if the MK knows when you are going to come and him, he can have a nado right there waiting for you.

point is its easy to beat when you are defending, but hard to beat when you are attacking.

also, nobody has quoted kinz post with the video in it, so I still havent seen it.

 

[B.A.M.]

KID... of course the game isnt based solely on reflexes and of course the game comes with prediction. Again, KID im talking about punishment here, i said it isnt about blindly rushing in, im talking about baiting that opening, then punishing accordingly. Saying the MK just knows you are coming is dumb. Im saying if you bait him successfully, nado isnt coming out on frame 1 or something so even if he realizes its happening MK isnt going to be able to punish in time due to the prior commitment he made (when u baited him) and the startup of Nado.

Of course this is a hypothetical situation i have made that very clear; what im saying KID is you bait/ condition your opponent. They dont know when to react to a Spin Dash or not, thats what you do as Sonic. You said it urself IF the MK knows when you are going to attack he can have a nado waiting. Thats why i said in my eariler post, you mix it up. Cuz when u dont, your scenario occurs. When you do, thats less likely of happening. Basic brawl knowledge and you know that. ESPECIALLY for sonic. Im telling him to mix it up so approaching/baiting/ conditioning will be more effective. Im also telling him that theres a certain spacing due to Sonics speed where he will be somewhat safe while his mixup will still have an effect. And yes the point is its easy to beat when ur ar defending, but hard to beat when you are attacking. Im saying it can be beat while on the offensive if you spin dash effectively because you can abort the attack retreat then punish cuz ur sonic. And im saying you can bait the Nado cuz u just said it urself he has to place a Nado out before u are there.

"2. this isnt melee, its not all based on reflexes anyway. the majority of this game is prediction and to be honest most sonic are very predictable with their spindash timings. so even if the nado is slow to start up, if the MK knows when you are going to come and him, he can have a nado right there WAITING for you."

Human reaction speed does matter in this game along with mixups. Just as prediction (cuz who wouldve thought of incorporating such things into predicting an opponent...) matters. Both are the reasons why "combos" happen in this game, and why an approach can be successful.

And yeah most Sonics are predictable with their Spin Dash timing, which is why most Sonics arent good.

 

[WedginatorX]

Pfft Scourge is a noob, Dark Super Sonic all day.

lolnoob. Lrn the workings of the universe. Scourge is at the top of the chain, baby! Scourge is Sonic on a good day, in a "bad" way Just look at it this way. If Big Boss was half as bad@$$ as Scourge was, then he wouldn't be so dam scrubby. But naww yo, this cracka thinks this big boss and dark super sonic **** is where it's at. naww. Bow down to the king, scrub. Scourge or GTFO.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. inb4 shado.

2. moral of the story, dont be stupid and dont walk into nado. its gay.

3. learn your options out of all phases of spindash

 

[B.A.M.]

pfft Big Boss played mindgames on the world **** an glasses, eyepatch all day. Stupid hoe Scourge is a nobody just a guest star on Sonic's show. Noone is bowing down to that dumb hoe. If you were watching Kinzer's video u would know Scourge doesnt eat steak; just pure metaknight **** for breakfast. Step your game up before you get that Mick Jaggar Kick in the face (spindash> bair son).Although Super Scourge is a different story, that fool is reppin that Dipset all day. Glasses dont protect you from skeet in your face from a 3000 year old warrior though nor an arbitrary soldier. How is Super Sonic going to have so much swagger his aura slaps the **** outta anyone near him in brawl? now thats raw. put some A1 on it and GTFO.



EDIT: KID i concur wholeheartedly.

 

[Kuraudo]

......... word.

 

[WedginatorX]

Aww I'm sowwy is little boss a bit butthurt? Umad because scourge be stylin' on you with the fact that he's King? The king pitties those who can't see the way he does. Scourge and his super form have the power to rule the universe. And they have ruled the universe. Da hell can Big Boss do? He's dead or some sh*t, ain't he? The king doesn't die. He lives on forever, haunting the dreams of the nonbelievers. Long live King Scourge.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

*****s talking about grounded spindashes on MK? Are you in 08 still? That boy MK stays punishing spindash. What an awful thing to do. He'll shuttle loop you every time you jump out of that spin.

Edit: Also, about this ***** Dark Super Sonic. Really? That ***** don't exist. He came from that trash Sonic X cartoon. None of that **** is legit.

Double also. Sonic still sucks.

 

[Kinzer]

Isn't Sonic X just bad in the 4Kids version?

Well I wouldn't really know, I don't watch anime too much, subbed or otherwise.

Meh, this is off-topic.

Welcome back Phoenix. Not sure if anybody's said it, but you've been gone for as long as I can recall... Not that I mean anything anyway, I've only been here since October 08(?).

I should have a better idea how to play that MU now... I just need to be willing to play "Gay" (back).

Spoiler

NoU~.

 

[Sagen du Smash]

1. F-smash starts up too slow to truly punish a lot of the things that you actually did punish. What I mean is, he could have shielded most of them, and punished you for your laggy *** F-smash.

2. Trying to use F-smash to punish tornado is dumb. Sure, it's technically possible for F-smash to beat out tornado, but it's not something that should be constantly tried for. Why? Because MK has the advantage in the situation. You're stuck in your position with your attack, while MK has the freedom to move around with his hitbox constantly surrounding him. So, just about all of the time, your F-smash is going to miss. This has nothing to do with Sonic's spacing. The F-smash only lands when the MK is dumb enough to get hit by it while using tornado.

3. Sonic sucks.

LOL why do you main vBrawl Sonic then?

 

[B.A.M.]

im talking about using it as punishment. Also if u are that close u punish that with spring. Are you in 08 phoenix? its like u forgot sonic has mix ups. step ur game up hoe, Sonic doesnt have problems with MK's specials. its his **** SH FF fairs and tilts that are effective when used properly. thats why u bait and punish or run in and shield grab if ur at a decent spacing. Gotta use that nice shield slide sonic has to ur advantage. All i hear is *****ing from u phoenix step ur game up.

And wedge, Big Boss doesnt die; that fool plays mindgames on the elites who control the "kings" of the modern world. However i must admit Dark Super Sonic from Sonic X is wack. However, the texture is far from being so. Wesley Snipes Sonic all day.








truth be told, if we all played the true Scourge way (gay), sonic would **** more. Too bad none of the self-proclaimed Scourges play so. Shado plays too manly and kinzer does nonsense.