The vs. MK match-up is probably worse for Diddy than 60-40

[Player-1]

Why do you do this to us Chrome
Why would you hide info thatll advance Diddys metagame, especially info concerning the best character in the game.
Its your choice and all but I dont see a reason for doing this.

If I was Chrome, I'd do the same thing until a tournament came and then unleash it there. I wouldn't keep it a 'secret' just postpone it.

 

[DFEAR]

besides if your opponent is able to catch ur bananas you should be able to as well 2x better! i believe the match up is even on most neutrals because diddys ground game > metaknights ground game. like m2k said, mk cant really do anything against a diddy who can just outcamp u then punish appropriately but that is the same for most characters. diddy's bananas can out prioritize most if not all of metaknights attacks including his tornado and shuttle loop. the only way i see the match being favored in metaknight is if the momentum shifts and metaknight gets into his gimpy gayness or if he counter picks a good mk/anti-diddy stage such as rainbow cruise lol. but worst it can get is 55-45 metaknight favor otherwise 50-50 cuz diddys ground game is really that intense. i cant really express myself that well :\

 

[Pierce7d]

Let's assume for a second that your opponent can reliable catch bananas thrown at them (ask Chrome Pirate, I can, even without using an attack)

One of my favorite things to do, is to merely z-catch an item and then z drop it immediately, wasting almost 0 time, and maintaining access to my entire moveset while disabling the hitbox of said thrown item (I generally call this tactic "defusing")

If a MK could reliably defuse bananas, then wouldn't Diddy lose an extremely powerful tool?

Also, how does Diddy reliably recover vs MK if MK flies above Diddy's SideB range (so that it would result in Diddy getting Daired on attempt. If he SideB's backward, could the MK not simply return to the stage and punish severely? If Diddy is recovering from below the stage, wouldn't he get gimped by FFDair?

(ugh, I hate theorycrafting in this match-up, because both characters have so many options that I have to cover)

 

[AvaricePanda]

Kind of vague statements. Also, numbers are very ambigious. What's 55-45 for some is 60-40 for others. What's 60-40 for some is 65-35 for others. Etc etc.

I'm going to try to deter from ambiguities as much as possible and actually discuss why I think the match-up is never more than slightly in MKs favour. I'm also mainly going to talk about Bananas, since that's what we've been focusing on. I don't really know where to start...so sorry x.x

Let's just get this out of the way: you really shouldn't worry that much about MK getting your bananas, at least not as much as you would against Marth. If MK DOES, by any chance, get your bananas, know that he has an absurdly long glide-toss. This is good and bad for you, good meaning that it's really predictable when he wants to approach, but bad because if you aren't paying attention and sheilding or spotdodging, you get a GT to Dsmash in the face. That's not fun.

Generally, people with longer glide-tosses are more predictable with their approaches if they have an item, although they can get in your face if you don't take the right course of action. Granted I don't play the good MKs that Player 1, ADHD, and AZ have played, but baiting a GT->Dsmash has been relatively easy. You can sheild the Dsmash and then grab. Immediately going after your banana could mean you get shuttle looped or aerial'd.

Next point, when bananas are in your control. When you glide-toss a banana towards the MK, they can either sit there and take it (good for you) sheild it (common, meh for you) or spotdodge it (neutral, unless you're really close). If they sheild it, against a lot of other characters, you can just shorthop and z-catch it and follow up with a dthrow that could hit them or that could land on the ground and be yours to waveland throw (instant aerial GT or whatever it's called, I forget x.x). However, if you're being predictable with this, the MK could just shuttle loop or fair or uair and get you.

Technically, you could do the aerial dodge catch and have him whiff his shuttle loop, but if he tornados then yeah. Basically, it's best to go for the grab if he shields, otherwise he has too many options.

It's been pretty accepted that fighting MK as Diddy offstage is really not fun. Nor is it that fun in the air. Not so much that flat ground (FD) is the best for your playstyle, but you probably don't want to play MK on Rainbow Cruise. You need some solid, main platform. Because his offstage game is crazy. If you're trying to Rocket-barrel to the ledge, chances are you're going to get gimped. When recovering, I try to charge the barrels away from the ledge and curve over the platform (at low percents). At high percents where MK could punish that with a killer dsmash or something...I don't really know what I do, x.x. Play as far away from the ledge as possible and don't attempt chasing him offstage. You can still do things like space Fairs to hit him when he's being cornered to the ledge, but just don't get close to that ledge yourself.

Some MKs Dair camp. Well really like all of the ones I've played do that, but I don't play great MKs like I said, so I'm not sure if the great ones do that. However, if your opponent does Dair camp, he's probably trying to bait a banana throw by getting close to the ground and just doing another mid-air jump. You can always just short hop throw, or dribble away, or get under him, sheild, and throw up, or whatever.

In this match-up, you want to be assertive but not offensive. During ADHD vs. M2K in the Get gimped Grand Finals, M2K was being in ADHDs face a lot, but ADHD snuck in attacks while staying on his toes, dribbling bananas and being ready for his opponents openings. Sorry if that wasn't such a fair statement to the game, but that's how I took it, and it's helped me a lot in the match-up.

When you get an opening, like when your bananas hits his sheild and you're close enough, or you make him trip or whatever, go for it and follow it up. However, "Don't jump into the ****." Don't do stupid things like jumping offstage and attempting to Dair spike the MK. After a point where the tides could turn, get back your banana control and start dribbling and such to keep the bananas in your control. If you want to think in terms of zones (yay HugS) you want to always be in either a positive or neutral zone. After you get your quick grab->banana throw->fair or whatever, control your bananas again.

...I basically rambled about arbitrary points in the match-up. But it's definitely not worse than 60-40. Diddy has the tools to get past Tornados, Planking, Dair camping, and quite a bit of what Meta-Knight has. He can assert neutral positions with his bananas. The match-up, in my opinion, is pretty even.

Edit:

One of my favorite things to do, is to merely z-catch an item and then z drop it immediately, wasting almost 0 time, and maintaining access to my entire moveset while disabling the hitbox of said thrown item (I generally call this tactic "defusing")

If a MK could reliably defuse bananas, then wouldn't Diddy lose an extremely powerful tool?

Don't forget that Diddy can diffuse back.

And the chances for MK being able to do this, against a Diddy that can control his bananas, is quite rare. If a banana hits an MKs sheild, the Diddy can either just grab or fair grab it before MK can (before the sheildstun).

Assuming that he can, however, then he kind of does? The situation remains somewhat neutral until action is actually taken. However, if the MK decides to pick up the bananas, his approaches are generally obvious (long GTs aren't that great), and Diddy can pseudo-camp with peanuts if MK decides to just grab the banana and run around his side of the stage.

In my head (I don't have MK match-up experience against great people, and the bit of times my bananas do get diffused, the MKs do a predictable glide toss approach) the best thing for the MK to do in that situation is leave the banana on that side of the stage and do one of his original approaches, assuming Diddy doesn't have a second banana. This would catch the Diddy off-guard, and if he tries to get his banana back the MK can punish.

That's just a mental thought though, and I'm not sure how well it would translate into an actual game.

It's just that...that idea you mentioned doesn't work because MK has to get the chance to diffuse in the first place, and that's if the Diddy doesn't already have a second banana in his hand (which most of the time, he should).

 

[Dekar173]

Even if the MK is being predictable with his GT approach, he has a guaranteed shield poke if your shield isn't almost completely fresh upon contact, not to mention a good MK mixing up their approaches (is he shielding the GT attempts? maybe I should grab him!)

GT > Dsmash if properly spaced, the back hit shieldpokes regardless of how you aim it =/ This spells doom if his dsmash is fresh.

What do we do in this predicament? Don't shield the banana, jump catch it or something. Avoid the broken dsmash.

 

[Pierce7d]

Alright, I like the Diddy boards. Now, let's consider this for a moment. Most of the strategies and examples here have Diddy Kong wielding two bananas. Furthermore, it's fairly okay to reliably assume that most of the time a good Diddy will be able to maintain control of at least one banana against MK. However, from the beginning of a match, due to MK's stupidly amazing ground speed, he can prevent you from maintaining control of two bananas if he can catch.

Assuming the MK's ability to catch is on par with most Diddys, if MK camps and focuses on reducing your weaponry to one banana by discarding the other, then decides to attack, how well can you repel MK then? What tools does Diddy have to repel glide toss to Tornado or Grab if he is NOT holding a banana?

 

[AvaricePanda]

First off, the MKs ability to catch will NEVER be on par with a Diddy. A Diddy uses bananas, like AZ said, like 15 hours a week, because he can spawn them in every match. MK can't do that.

But assuming that the MKs ability to catch is on par, then the Diddy would just have the second banana. He can possibly prevent you from maintaining control of two, but he should never be able to maintain control of both (and honestly, most of the time high level Diddys have 2 bananas, especially against this match-up). With the second banana in your hand, getting past Tornados or whatnot would nearly be the same.

And with the whole sheilding the GT to Dsmash thing, that's just one possible example of what you could do. You could GT at him back to space yourself away from the banana he throws while he gets hit by yours. You could jump and dthrow over him, zcatch, fastfall, and do whatever. You could spotdodge or just jump and fastfall if you don't have a banana, and (depending on where it is on the map) the MK would just throw the banana off the edge. Etc.

IMO, if the MK just camps with one banana and decides to approach, it's best for him. I'm not going to lie, it's a problem for Diddy when he does this, but he can still cope with his second banana. Or you could deal defensively with the approach until the banana runs out of time on the ground. Beating out things like his Tornado, Shuttle Loop, etc., are all still possible with one banana, but generally are easier with two because of the unpredictability, mobility, and all-around chances you get with two.

But I'm not really sure, because most of the time when the opponent MK gets my bananas they usually do a GT approach instead of trying to camp with it and keep it away from me. I don't have enough experience with this.

 

[Blistering Speed]

First off, the MKs ability to catch will NEVER be on par with a Diddy. A Diddy uses bananas, like AZ said, like 15 hours a week, because he can spawn them in every match. MK can't do that.

I see this evidence used a lot in Diddy matchup debates and it's false. Matchup debates assume both characters are being played at the height of their metagame, therefore we assume that MK can use the banana's to the character's best ability. Never use player inadequacy as a reason.

 

[bludhoundz]

Alright, I like the Diddy boards. Now, let's consider this for a moment. Most of the strategies and examples here have Diddy Kong wielding two bananas. Furthermore, it's fairly okay to reliably assume that most of the time a good Diddy will be able to maintain control of at least one banana against MK. However, from the beginning of a match, due to MK's stupidly amazing ground speed, he can prevent you from maintaining control of two bananas if he can catch.

Assuming the MK's ability to catch is on par with most Diddys, if MK camps and focuses on reducing your weaponry to one banana by discarding the other, then decides to attack, how well can you repel MK then? What tools does Diddy have to repel glide toss to Tornado or Grab if he is NOT holding a banana?

The only time MK will take away both bananas from you is if you mindlessly glide toss them at him.

Part of Diddy's banana play is just holding one in hand. He has the projectiles (bananas, peanuts), so he doesn't have to approach from the start. MK does, so you aren't going to be needing to throw your bananas at him from the start (maybe one, but not the other if you don't connect or unless it's unlikely that you'll lose control of it).

Another thing is diffusing bananas only works at a long range. Close up you'll be punished, regardless of how lagless diffusing is. It's much more effective for MK to actually try to use bananas to his advantage than disable them entirely (at least during some parts of the match).

GT -> Tornado should probably be handled by a shield or PS followed up by a SH retreating bair (bair can hit through the early stages of the Tornado in my exp). I could be wrong about this though, I'd like to see what AZ / Chrome says.

GT -> grab is always difficult to avoid and it's one of Diddy's great tools. An excellently timed spotdodge can beat this out, but it really depends on the spacing, and it really has to be EXCELLENTLY timed, otherwise you'll eat a dsmash. Generally I'd say you have to either PS and retaliate before you can get grabbed, or jump out of the way (maybe AD to catch the banana on your way out). There's also the possibility of a SH Fair to catch the banana, but if MK sees it coming you'll be punished. Basically you have to respond to this in a variety of different ways to avoid being punished for responding the same way every time.

Also, 1 banana is all you need to get by. 2 is great for racking up damage and comboing, but with 1 you're going to play more campy (if you throw it away you can't do much, and you can't really perform many moves while holding a banana) and try to punish MK with your banana. If you manage to successfully hit him, go for the grab, toss him away and bring out a 2nd banana.

Note that pretty much EVERY time there's a decent amount of space between Diddy and MK, Diddy can pull out a banana safely.

Disclaimer: I'm not an extremely experienced player but I like to think I have a reasonable grasp on this matchup. So some of my points may be off.

Edit: Blistering Speed, MK may be able to catch bananas as well as Diddy, but his dash attack is not quite as good at picking them up (though it is one of the better ones). The real thing is that MK's banana control just won't be as good, simply due to Diddy using bananas in EVERY match, while the MK player only gets to against Diddy. Not to mention Diddy's glide toss length is an amazing length for readjusting spacing.

 

[Ingulit]

I see this evidence used a lot in Diddy matchup debates and it's false. Matchup debates assume both characters are being played at the height of their metagame, therefore we assume that MK can use the banana's to the character's best ability. Never use player inadequacy as a reason.

Thank you; this is the point I've been trying to bring up this entire discussion.

 

[Seppoku]

Isn't the best way to distinguish this matchup to look at the tournaments that have been played with diddy's vs MK on the board and figure out how many times MK comes out on top vs Diddy coming out on top ? seems like if you want to put numbers behind it.. have evidence..

 

[Blistering Speed]

No, because those numbers'd be very biased as to:
-Diddys or MKs could not be playing their best for any number of reasons/johns.
-Diddys or MKs could be of unequal skill (very likely).
-Diddys or MKs could not know the matchup as well as the opponent.

Off the top of my head, it'd just be a very skewed system, not to mention the amount of matches won recordings would become outdated everytime something new was discovered in the metagame or the players simply moved on in playstyle and skill since those matches (happens often in Smash).

 

[tocador]

I see this evidence used a lot in Diddy matchup debates and it's false. Matchup debates assume both characters are being played at the height of their metagame, therefore we assume that MK can use the banana's to the character's best ability. Never use player inadequacy as a reason.

If you can say the MK knows COMPLETLY how to use the nanas, we should assume that the diddy KNOWS THE EXACT FRAME TIMMING of everything the MK can do to him, and so does MK! And like they are both the perftc players, they will never get hit, cause they would only attack when one makes a mistake, and like they are perfect, there will be no mistakes, and therefore no attacks will happen.

So yeah, THERE IS NO WAY, a MK can have the same or even more nana experience then diddy. And even if he had, DIDDY has the best tools to camp and protect those nanas =/!

Sorry for the pseudo caps, but there isnt such a thing as "mk knows everything he cans, and can even play the same level diddy can with his nanas", because this will never be true, and if you can say that, then we should assume that diddy knows the frame timming for everything that mk can do, and we all know this isnt possible.

 

[ADHD]

Alright, I like the Diddy boards. Now, let's consider this for a moment. Most of the strategies and examples here have Diddy Kong wielding two bananas. Furthermore, it's fairly okay to reliably assume that most of the time a good Diddy will be able to maintain control of at least one banana against MK. However, from the beginning of a match, due to MK's stupidly amazing ground speed, he can prevent you from maintaining control of two bananas if he can catch.

Assuming the MK's ability to catch is on par with most Diddys, if MK camps and focuses on reducing your weaponry to one banana by discarding the other, then decides to attack, how well can you repel MK then? What tools does Diddy have to repel glide toss to Tornado or Grab if he is NOT holding a banana?

He's not marth. Only marth can do that. Mk's aerials are horrible for catching items as well.

 

[Diddyknight]

Its Even matchup. As much as the MK stays in the air. Diddy also controls the ground. it has it ups and down. MK/Diddy can both use bananas to their advantage. If the MK knows the matchup...well...i say then 55:45 but its not much of a diffrence. Diddy fair clashes with MK Glide Attack and also because MK will get punished horribily if he lands on the ground. So overall 50 50. Both has their weakness.

>.<

 

[AvaricePanda]

Problem with match-up debates is that you can't always think on paper though.

Fact: at high levels of play, Diddy WILL have better banana control than MK. Period. Diddy uses bananas every match and spawns them every match. The MK can only use bananas when fighting Diddy. Granted, the MK could learn the Diddy match-up and learn what he could do with bananas for a couple of days, but it's nothing compared to the fact that Diddy mains always have bananas.

Plus, the overall things Diddy can do with said bananas are better than what MK can do. Diddy has a great dribble, great overall GT length, great aerials to catch the bananas if needed, great dash attack to pick up said bananas, great followups for banana trips, etc. You don't see MKs dribbling everywhere (well they can't really) and using bananas as mobility. MK doesn't use bananas enough to know the potential, if any, he has with them.

For the match-up, yes, you're assuming that both characters are at the highest level of play. However, at that level of play, Diddy logs much more hours of banana usage than any other character, which obviously means that Diddys are more knowledgable as to what they can do with bananas.

 

[Dekar173]

Let's step back for a moment and think: what if that MK was ME playing against some random Diddy.

Am I forgetting my vast amount of background knowledge on bananas and how to use them against my opponent? Am I forgetting entirely how to zone with them, simply because I'm MK now?

If that's the case, I'm saddened, as well as surprised. Even when I'm playing any of the lower tiers against a Diddy player, my banana control is as good as, if not better, than theirs.

Just a little food for thought.

 

[Player-1]

Let's step back for a moment and think: what if that MK was ME playing against some random Diddy.

Am I forgetting my vast amount of background knowledge on bananas and how to use them against my opponent? Am I forgetting entirely how to zone with them, simply because I'm MK now?

If that's the case, I'm saddened, as well as surprised. Even when I'm playing any of the lower tiers against a Diddy player, my banana control is as good as, if not better, than theirs.

Just a little food for thought.

That shouldn't be happening, whoever that (those) Diddy player is (are) is (are) bad

 

[Bellioes]

I see what you mean. If a MK user is a former Diddy main, he definitely wont forget all the banana tricks hes learned. The tricks that he can apply to other characters, he will most definitely use them when playing a Diddy.

I agree that MK, or in that case, any character wont be able to handle bananas as well as Diddy but people can still know how to use them well. Especially those with previous knowledge of bananas attained through previous Diddy usage. They wont be as good as Diddy but theyll be good. Their GT wont be so obvious, theyll be more aware of bananas positions etc.

I guess when talking about matchups, this would be the 'highest level' MK.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Why does the title of this thread say "probably worse than 60-40" when all the MKs and Diddy players who actually play the characters and know the match up tell you its close to even?

 

[Blistering Speed]

If you can say the MK knows COMPLETLY how to use the nanas, we should assume that the diddy KNOWS THE EXACT FRAME TIMMING of everything the MK can do to him, and so does MK!

You have no idea what you're talking about, matchup debates assume both characters are being played at their full potential i.e. MK uses banana's to the characters max potential WITHIN human capabilities, not the same as a frame perfect enviroment lol.

 

[Mew2King]

this is the stupidest thread name ever

as far as only neutrals are concerned, diddy goes at LEAST even with MK

im sorry pierce but this is the 2nd dumbest thing you said after "im as good as you were 3 months ago"

 

[ACCELERATE]

ZIMMMMEEERRRRRRMMAAAAANNNSOOOOOOONNNN
from
CIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNAAAAAAMOOOOONNNNSOOOOONN

Its 55:45 Mk favour. 50:50 On Fd only.

 

[Dark Ryu]

im sorry pierce but this is the 2nd dumbest thing you said after "im as good as you were 3 months ago"

LOL! That's the funniest thing I heard. The matchup is 55:45.

 

[Diddyknight]

this thread has now become funny xD

 

[Le_THieN]

My Ultimate Thoughts, Not in a Nutshell

It's the middle of the afternoon, and I'm off of work tonight, which means I can finally take some time to acknowledge many important points that this dialogue has been turning on.

Before I begin though, I would just like to express that out of all the knowledge I have learned and pieced together over the course of the last year, nothing I know eclipses the understanding that I have developed with all things Meta Knight in relation to the Diddy Kong meta-game. I have a very documented and decorated history involving Meta Knight in and out of tournaments, and my experiences span a wide range of player skill and talent shaped by a host of different regional trends across the country. I have broken the spirits of the most mediocre of players and have been forced to the cusp of retirement by the nation's finest. This neverending tug-o-war with Brawl's most dominant character has – for better or worse – made Meta Knight easily my favorite and most studied match-up.

This is the only time I will ever make as strong of an insistence to the depth of my credentials, and I hope people will acknowledge and take them into serious consideration before launching into counterargument.

I have chosen a series of quotes that I have culled from this thread so far that I would like to directly contend with. For ease of reading and navigation, I have opted to quote everything in one box, as opposed to multiple, screen-stretching columns:

• "The problem with this line of thought is that diddy as a CHARACTER handles the banans better than meta knight as a CHARACTER..even if the mk play is equally as skilled as using nanas as diddy, the diddy still should be in better control." [Count]
  
  
• "The opponent should NOT be using your bananas as well as you or equal to you or even close to how you're working with them, THIS is why Diddy is A tier." [Player-1]
  
  
• "You can never assume the opponent is equal to the Diddy player with bananas. This is an area where theory will never match reality." [AlphaZealot]
  
  
• "First off, the MKs ability to catch will NEVER be on par with a Diddy. A Diddy uses bananas, like AZ said, like 15 hours a week, because he can spawn them in every match. MK can't do that." [AvaricePanda]
  
  
• "The real thing is that MK's banana control just won't be as good, simply due to Diddy using bananas in EVERY match, while the MK player only gets to against Diddy." [bludhoundz]
  
  
• "So yeah, THERE IS NO WAY, a MK can have the same or even more nana experience then diddy. And even if he had, DIDDY has the best tools to camp and protect those nanas =/!" [tocador]

These are statements which comprise the crux of the groupthink that essentially agrees that "Meta Knight will never have the same banana peel control as Diddy Kong." There are multiple problems with this line of thought and logic:

1. The vast majority of these claims do not take into consideration of the fact that the margin of favor that Meta Knight has over Diddy Kong in this match-up does not always deal with banana peels. In fact, I think many of you are (perhaps unintentionally) ignoring two other and arguably more critical facets of MK's anti-Diddy game: the pressure that he can apply in his grounded rush-down, and his off-stage pressure. Both of these often go hand in hand: a Meta Knight that bulldozes you with a fast, smart and measured offense can at least temporarily neutralize banana peels as a factor long enough to knock you off-stage, where Diddy Kong's overall options are reduced to predictable and linear recovery paths.
   
   
2. No concession is being made with regards to the possible success of Meta Knight's inherent ability to manipulate banana peels because there is an implied assumption that opposing players do not have the capacity to match us, the Diddy Kong mains, as far as item micromanagement is concerned.
   
   However, there is one crucial thing everybody needs to realize about these arguments, and it's that they are essentially theory-crafting value judgments. Many of you at least unwittingly forfeit that your statements are merely opinion with faulty word choices (i.e. "MK should never have better banana control than you"), but then there are those of you who resort to absolutism, implying that there is no possible way for opponents to be on par or exceed our level of item control and awareness.
   
   If you wax poetic about hypothetical situations involving this specific match-up with both characters at the absolute height of their respective meta-game, you have no choice but to assume that the Meta Knight that you face in this scenario has at least precisely the same amount of dexterity that you do with banana peels. To fantasize about these circumstances but then still arbitrarily impose limitations on the Meta Knight player because you feel like it is impossible defies logic of all sorts and brands.
   
   
3. As I previously mentioned, these perilously frail claims revolve around some hidden universal truth that no one can ever be as proficient as Diddy Kong mains in the use of banana peels. The first question I would like to ask is this: how often has it been necessary for your opponent to have equal or better banana peel control than you in order for them to win a match or close a set on us? The fallacy of the groupthink here is that it ignores the simple fact that defeating Diddy Kong does not always depend on who has the best banana control. Sometimes, we just flat out get our *sses whooped, plain and simple, and it very well may have nothing to do with questionable management of your resources.
   
   And no, that's not just a Meta Knight thing; that goes for virtually every other character in Brawl's cast.

I would also like to take this time to revisit another observation: What if a former dedicated Diddy Kong main decided to abandon ship and jump on the Meta Knight bandwagon?

Hmmm.

I seriously picked up Meta Knight for the first time earlier this week, and the results have been staggering. I have played against Meta Knight for over a year to date, and I have seen precisely what the trajectory of his meta-game has yielded. Of course, simple observation other players' styles and techniques in a fighting game of any depth does not necessarily mean that I should be able to emulate it. However, due to Meta Knight's ridiculously small learning curve, I have been able to pretty much clean up my MK over the course of the last 48 hours to become an effective carbon copy of all of the best MK mains I have ever played.

Can you imagine playing against a Meta Knight that not only Z-grabs, but thwarts all your glide-toss attempts, and also avoids ground traps by consistently air-dodge-catching banana peels off the ground? Or one that instant-throws? Or one that sets up his own traps upon gaining control over a banana peel? I don't even think most of you are even aware of all the mix-ups Meta Knight is capable of when he's armed with a banana peel. Glide-tossing is not his only option, and having inherently insane ground and aerial mobility on top of B-special mix-ups is a headache many of you will not ever want to deal with.

Would a Meta Knight main who used to be a dedicated Diddy Kong main not be your worst nightmare?

I'm heavily considering being that guy, and I would guarantee you that I would be hard-pressed to lose to another Diddy Kong player, ever. And unfortunately I would only be the tip of the iceberg.

Think about that.

Diddy Kong vs. Meta Knight is not even.

 

[Player-1]

It's the middle of the afternoon, and I'm off of work tonight, which means I can finally take some time to acknowledge many important points that this dialogue has been turning on.

Before I begin though, I would just like to express that out of all the knowledge I have learned and pieced together over the course of the last year, nothing I know eclipses the understanding that I have developed with all things Meta Knight in relation to the Diddy Kong meta-game. I have a very documented and decorated history involving Meta Knight in and out of tournaments, and my experiences span a wide range of player skill and talent shaped by a host of different regional trends across the country. I have broken the spirits of the most mediocre of players and have been forced to the cusp of retirement by the nation's finest. This neverending tug-o-war with Brawl's most dominant character has – for better or worse – made Meta Knight easily my favorite and most studied match-up.

This is the only time I will ever make as strong of an insistence to the depth of my credentials, and I hope people will acknowledge and take them into serious consideration before launching into counterargument.

I have chosen a series of quotes that I have culled from this thread so far that I would like to directly contend with. For ease of reading and navigation, I have opted to quote everything in one box, as opposed to multiple, screen-stretching columns:



These are statements which comprise the crux of the groupthink that essentially agrees that "Meta Knight will never have the same banana peel control as Diddy Kong." There are multiple problems with this line of thought and logic:

1. The vast majority of these claims do not take into consideration of the fact that the margin of favor that Meta Knight has over Diddy Kong in this match-up does not always deal with banana peels. In fact, I think many of you are (perhaps unintentionally) ignoring two other and arguably more critical facets of MK's anti-Diddy game: the pressure that he can apply in his grounded rush-down, and his off-stage pressure. Both of these often go hand in hand: a Meta Knight that bulldozes you with a fast, smart and measured offense can at least temporarily neutralize banana peels as a factor long enough to knock you off-stage, where Diddy Kong's overall options are reduced to predictable and linear recovery paths.
   
   
2. No concession is being made with regards to the possible success of Meta Knight's inherent ability to manipulate banana peels because there is an implied assumption that opposing players do not have the capacity to match us, the Diddy Kong mains, as far as item micromanagement is concerned.
   
   However, there is one crucial thing everybody needs to realize about these arguments, and it's that they are essentially theory-crafting value judgments. Many of you at least unwittingly forfeit that your statements are merely opinion with faulty word choices (i.e. "MK should never have better banana control than you"), but then there are those of you who resort to absolutism, implying that there is no possible way for opponents to be on par or exceed our level of item control and awareness.
   
   If you wax poetic about hypothetical situations involving this specific match-up with both characters at the absolute height of their respective meta-game, you have no choice but to assume that the Meta Knight that you face in this scenario has at least precisely the same amount of dexterity that you do with banana peels. To fantasize about these circumstances but then still arbitrarily impose limitations on the Meta Knight player because you feel like it is impossible defies logic of all sorts and brands.
   
   
3. As I previously mentioned, these perilously frail claims revolve around some hidden universal truth that no one can ever be as proficient as Diddy Kong mains in the use of banana peels. The first question I would like to ask is this: how often has it been necessary for your opponent to have equal or better banana peel control than you in order for them to win a match or close a set on us? The fallacy of the groupthink here is that it ignores the simple fact that defeating Diddy Kong does not always depend on who has the best banana control. Sometimes, we just flat out get our *sses whooped, plain and simple, and it very well may have nothing to do with questionable management of your resources.
   
   And no, that's not just a Meta Knight thing; that goes for virtually every other character in Brawl's cast.

I would also like to take this time to revisit another observation: What if a former dedicated Diddy Kong main decided to abandon ship and jump on the Meta Knight bandwagon?

Hmmm.

I seriously picked up Meta Knight for the first time earlier this week, and the results have been staggering. I have played against Meta Knight for over a year to date, and I have seen precisely what the trajectory of his meta-game has yielded. Of course, simple observation other players' styles and techniques in a fighting game of any depth does not necessarily mean that I should be able to emulate it. However, due to Meta Knight's ridiculously small learning curve, I have been able to pretty much clean up my MK over the course of the last 48 hours to become an effective carbon copy of all of the best MK mains I have ever played.

Can you imagine playing against a Meta Knight that not only Z-grabs, but thwarts all your glide-toss attempts, and also avoids ground traps by consistently air-dodge-catching banana peels off the ground? Or one that instant-throws? Or one that sets up his own traps upon gaining control over a banana peel? I don't even think most of you are even aware of all the mix-ups Meta Knight is capable of when he's armed with a banana peel. Glide-tossing is not his only option, and having inherently insane ground and aerial mobility on top of B-special mix-ups is a headache many of you will not ever want to deal with.

Would a Meta Knight main who used to be a dedicated Diddy Kong main not be your worst nightmare?

I'm heavily considering being that guy, and I would guarantee you that I would be hard-pressed to lose to another Diddy Kong player, ever. And unfortunately I would only be the tip of the iceberg.

Think about that.

Diddy Kong vs. Meta Knight is not even.

Thien...every time you post I have to bust out the dictionary...

But I have to disagree here.

I think you misunderstood something here:

The vast majority of these claims do not take into consideration of the fact that the margin of favor that Meta Knight has over Diddy Kong in this match-up does not always deal with banana peels. In fact, I think many of you are (perhaps unintentionally) ignoring two other and arguably more critical facets of MK's anti-Diddy game: the pressure that he can apply in his grounded rush-down, and his off-stage pressure.

I don't know if you meant this, but it sounds like you're saying that we basically said 'MK doesn't have nearly as many options with bananas as Diddy does so it's a neutral matchup.' Which I, personally, wasn't saying that at all, and from what it sounded to me, it didn't sound like the other Diddy players were saying that. That just got started because someone was saying that what if the MK player could use Diddy's bananas better than he could, and our responses were the quotes that you listed above. I really hate what if questions like this...But if 2 players were equally skilled with their character and the matchup, then NO MK shouldn't be using the bananas better or equal to Diddy. MK has a few tricks he can pull out with bananas, but not nearly as much as Diddy does is my point.

Then you said:

I would also like to take this time to revisit another observation: What if a former dedicated Diddy Kong main decided to abandon ship and jump on the Meta Knight bandwagon?

Well, I can easily say the same vice versa here. What if an MK main decided to start maining Diddy? Woudn't the MK main know exactly how to use the bananas to his advantage? Always spaces and times his aerials correctly? Know MK's frame data so he knows that he can Dthrow a bananas faster than MK can dmash? Know how to avoid being gimped by the MK? I think you were being completely one sided here, because 1st off, the question is a what if question, and 2nd you can say the same exact thing for an MK main dropping him and moving on to Diddy.

 

[Le_THieN]

I don't know if you meant this, but it sounds like you're saying that we basically said 'MK doesn't have nearly as many options with bananas as Diddy does so it's a neutral matchup.' Which I, personally, wasn't saying that at all, and from what it sounded to me, it didn't sound like the other Diddy players were saying that.

No, you misunderstood. What I feel like you all are saying is that there is "no possible way" for a Meta Knight player to equal or eclipse a Diddy Kong player in the realm of banana control. I contend otherwise and claim that it is possible.

I really hate what if questions like this...But if 2 players were equally skilled with their character and the matchup, then NO MK shouldn't be using the bananas better or equal to Diddy. MK has a few tricks he can pull out with bananas, but not nearly as much as Diddy does is my point.

The text highlighted in sea green indicates that this statement is a value judgment. You and everyone else I quoted are not issuing statements of universal truth, but statements that are 100% opinion-based. Therefore, it is in my humble minority opinion that a Meta Knight player can match or exceed Diddy Kong players as far as banana micromanagement is concerned, and these tactics do not involve fancy dribbling mind-games or popgun cancels.

Well, I can easily say the same vice versa here. What if an MK main decided to start maining Diddy? Woudn't the MK main know exactly how to use the bananas to his advantage? Always spaces and times his aerials correctly? Know MK's frame data so he knows that he can Dthrow a bananas faster than MK can dmash? Know how to avoid being gimped by the MK? I think you were being completely one sided here, because 1st off, the question is a what if question, and 2nd you can say the same exact thing for an MK main dropping him and moving on to Diddy.[

Actually...no. You can't. The reverse argument does not work because my argument revolves around the fact that Meta Knight has an inherent, overall advantage over Diddy Kong. This implies that no matter how "equal" both players are in terms of skill, the person maining Meta Knight (at this point in the meta-game) will always win.

The reason I'm considering (temporarily) picking up Meta Knight is because I want to showcase not only how easy it is to take advantage of his small learning curve, but to also demonstrate that a Meta Knight player who knows the ins and outs of this match-up is far more dangerous than a Diddy Kong who knows the same things.

Just to point out, Mew2King doesn't deploy all the universal item-related techniques to consistently win in this match-up. He plays a solid and fundamental rush-down game and applies basic, virtually unavoidable off-stage pressure...and wins. How much harder would this match-up get if everyone practiced what we know? This is the essence of my argument.

 

[Count]

I trust thien's opinion more than anybody on these boards I would say, so I will take his word about what he is saying regarding this matchup.

My only defense would have been that ADHD gets close to m2k despite having played smash much less than m2k, but you pointed out that m2k does not at all take advantage of what meta knight can do concerning 'item micromanagment.'

Thien's MK vs flip's diddy. Go.



ps i read this while taking a microecon study break..wtf?

 

[Player-1]

No, you misunderstood. What I feel like you all are saying is that there is "no possible way" for a Meta Knight player to equal or eclipse a Diddy Kong player in the realm of banana control. I contend otherwise and claim that it is possible.



The text highlighted in sea green indicates that this statement is a value judgment. You and everyone else I quoted are not issuing statements of universal truth, but statements that are 100% opinion-based. Therefore, it is in my humble minority opinion that a Meta Knight player can match or exceed Diddy Kong players as far as banana micromanagement is concerned, and these tactics do not involve fancy dribbling mind-games or popgun cancels.



Actually...no. You can't. The reverse argument does not work because my argument revolves around the fact that Meta Knight has an inherent, overall advantage over Diddy Kong. This implies that no matter how "equal" both players are in terms of skill, the person maining Meta Knight (at this point in the meta-game) will always win.

The reason I'm considering (temporarily) picking up Meta Knight is because I want to showcase not only how easy it is to take advantage of his small learning curve, but to also demonstrate that a Meta Knight player who knows the ins and outs of this match-up is far more dangerous than a Diddy Kong who knows the same things.

Just to point out, Mew2King doesn't deploy all the universal item-related techniques to consistently win in this match-up. He plays a solid and fundamental rush-down game and applies basic, virtually unavoidable off-stage pressure...and wins. How much harder would this match-up get if everyone practiced what we know? This is the essence of my argument.

First paragraph- No one ever said that it 'wasn't possible', obviously it's possible. The point I'm making is that it SHOULDN'T be happening. My point is that if a Diddy Kong main and an MK main faced off in a tournament match and they're at and playing at the EXACT same skill level, with their main and in the matchup. Then the Diddy Kong player will have the better banana control the majority of the match. Now I can't say that they both know EVERYTHING about the matchup and their character and they're playing PERFECTLY because that's not realistic first off, and 2nd off neither character would ever win, the timer would run out with them at both 0%. So let's say these 2 players are average players, both both equally average. The Diddy player WILL have the better banana game the majority of the match. But obviously this isn't a perfect world and players have bad days or good days and with all of the luck that is put into brawl (Peach + turnips, tripping, lugi's misfires, etc.) you won't ever have this match.

2nd paragraph- I never said that Diddy will always have the better banana game is a fact, and I'm not saying that what you posted isn't an opinion, I'm just questioning your opinion. Meta Knight just loses in the majority of the aspects of what we call 'banana game' this is what I'm saying is a fact, but it's my opinion it's a fact. MK can have the better banana game, but he just has to overcome the odds against it.

3rd paragraph- Well I don't know when this became your argument, because you were the one quoting us implying that you were entering our argument. But our argument revolves around Diddy having a dead even 50:50 matchup against MK on most neutral stages, so actually yes I can say that.

4th and 5th- go ahead and main mk, that really wasn't the point of what I was saying.

 

[fource]

I would also like to take this time to revisit another observation: What if a former dedicated Diddy Kong main decided to abandon ship and jump on the Meta Knight bandwagon?

Hmmm.

I seriously picked up Meta Knight for the first time earlier this week, and the results have been staggering. I have played against Meta Knight for over a year to date, and I have seen precisely what the trajectory of his meta-game has yielded. Of course, simple observation other players' styles and techniques in a fighting game of any depth does not necessarily mean that I should be able to emulate it. However, due to Meta Knight's ridiculously small learning curve, I have been able to pretty much clean up my MK over the course of the last 48 hours to become an effective carbon copy of all of the best MK mains I have ever played.

Can you imagine playing against a Meta Knight that not only Z-grabs, but thwarts all your glide-toss attempts, and also avoids ground traps by consistently air-dodge-catching banana peels off the ground? Or one that instant-throws? Or one that sets up his own traps upon gaining control over a banana peel? I don't even think most of you are even aware of all the mix-ups Meta Knight is capable of when he's armed with a banana peel. Glide-tossing is not his only option, and having inherently insane ground and aerial mobility on top of B-special mix-ups is a headache many of you will not ever want to deal with.

Would a Meta Knight main who used to be a dedicated Diddy Kong main not be your worst nightmare?

I'm heavily considering being that guy, and I would guarantee you that I would be hard-pressed to lose to another Diddy Kong player, ever. And unfortunately I would only be the tip of the iceberg.

Think about that.

Diddy Kong vs. Meta Knight is not even.

I'm not gonna lie, this does sound like it could strongly hurt Diddy Kong as a character. Although they are not necessary, Diddy mains should all know that bananas are an important part in beating a Meta Knight. If the MK understands how to isolate, or even utilize the bananas, even if it isn't on par but just enough to do damage, the Diddy Kong mains are taking a big hit.

I also have to agree with what Le Thien is saying about the character swap theory. A Diddy Kong going Meta Knight has a huge advantage over a Meta Knight going Diddy. I play a huge variety of characters. Before Diddy I was a Snake main but that does not mean that the Snake match-up is significantly easier, I still struggle sometimes. Face it, bananas are probably the only asset of this match-up that is arguable because frame data goes both ways. As soon as Meta-Knights learn the banana game (they haven't seemed to need it so far) than honestly, this match-up is going to be far from 55-45.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I've found the Diddy/Meta Matchup to just get easier and easier the gayer I decide to play it. I was having trouble, but still winning often even when my meta knight was garbage against seasoned Diddy Kong players. Now that I've upped my game, I rarely ever feel pressured by Diddy's bananas. They just feel more like tools I can hit him with while I'm juggling him off stage.

 

[Le_THieN]

3rd paragraph- Well I don't know when this became your argument, because you were the one quoting us implying that you were entering argument. But our argument revolves around Diddy having a dead even 50:50 matchup against MK on most neutral stages, so actually yes I can say that.

You are free to believe this as you wish. Other than Wyatt and myself though, I don't feel that there is anyone else in this thread that have played with the country's best Meta Knights, so I'm equally free to find the grounds of your argument (which I would assume to be your own personal experience) precarious in the very least.

In that light, I don't understand you even feel that Diddy Kong goes even with MK on starter stages, ADHD. Both you and M2K are considered the bar for your respective characters' meta-games at the moment, and the majority of matches that you have lost to Jason on are (as you admitted yourself) starter stages. How much longer can any of you cling onto your arguments and write it off as ADHD not being as good as M2K (which I don't think is even true, honestly) before you just concede that Meta Knight has at least a small advantage over Diddy Kong?

4th and 5th- go ahead and main mk, that really wasn't the point of what I was saying.

Just to clarify, I realize I'm just fighting fire with fire right now, and that this dialogue doesn't really amount to much more than a battle of opinions. These are the calculated risks you take by making leaps in logic in order to define what you people believe to be the "precise, mathematically determined ratios" for specific match-ups, especially match-ups that are considered as close as this one. This is the fallacy with arguing subjective arguments and then subsequently bolstering them with subjective points, and the number one reason why I think my brain would hemorrhage if I was in charge of the match-up thread.

But thanks for your permission all the same. =) Meta Knight is amazing, and that was not sarcasm.

 

[Player-1]

I'm not gonna lie, this does sound like it could strongly hurt Diddy Kong as a character. Although they are not necessary, Diddy mains should all know that bananas are an important part in beating a Meta Knight. If the MK understands how to isolate, or even utilize the bananas, even if it isn't on par but just enough to do damage, the Diddy Kong mains are taking a big hit.

I also have to agree with what Le Thien is saying about the character swap theory. A Diddy Kong going Meta Knight has a huge advantage over a Meta Knight going Diddy. I play a huge variety of characters. Before Diddy I was a Snake main but that does not mean that the Snake match-up is significantly easier, I still struggle sometimes. Face it, bananas are probably the only asset of this match-up that is arguable because frame data goes both ways. As soon as Meta-Knights learn the banana game (they haven't seemed to need it so far) than honestly, this match-up is going to be far from 55-45.

but the flaw here is that just like MKs can adapt to the banana game, Diddy can adapt and make it even better.

It's like the theory of evolution. Let's say we make a skill level thingy for Diddy:
Best
Good
Decent
Bad
Worst

and let's say that all of the decent Diddy's and down get killed off by the MKs ****** them, the good ones go even with the MKs, and the best Diddys still beat the MKs. The better Diddys survived by adapting to the MKs and making new tactics, ATs, etc. This was then passed down to their offspring (we obviously can't kill all the decent diddys and down, then reproduce like animals do, lol, so think of it that these diddys get reborn as the offspring), then the Diddys are back on top and things flip flop like that until one species goes extinct or for some reason the world blows up or the population is separated or something like that.

You are free to believe this as you wish. Other than Wyatt and myself though, I don't feel that there is anyone else in this thread that have played with the country's best Meta Knights, so I'm equally free to find the grounds of your argument (which I would assume to be your own personal experience) precarious in the very least.

I base my opinions on personal experience, tournament results, and individuals playing each other btw.

And I feel that I have just as much as a right to find the grounds of your argument as well (well actually I DO have the right, but however many people think my opinions are accurate is what matters).

 

[Count]

Thien if you go meta knight I will still be your biggest fan

also, you have to come to the midwest sometime at a tourney that I'm at. And you have to team with me knowing you have to carry me on your back. That's all though =).

 

[Sliraobe God]

THieN wins this argument, p-1 tried hard but he just didn't earn it. Maybe a bit more logic would be necessary in order to earn the "winner" title.

 

[Player-1]

THieN wins this argument, p-1 tried hard but he just didn't earn it. Maybe a bit more logic would be necessary in order to earn the "winner" title.

lolwut?

This is completely 100% opinion based there is no winner, did you even read his argument? He said this like 2 times.

 

[AlphaZealot]

If you wax poetic about hypothetical situations involving this specific match-up with both characters at the absolute height of their respective meta-game, you have no choice but to assume that the Meta Knight that you face in this scenario has at least precisely the same amount of dexterity that you do with banana peels. To fantasize about these circumstances but then still arbitrarily impose limitations on the Meta Knight player because you feel like it is impossible defies logic of all sorts and brands.

What is the fantasy is the assumption that a top level MK will be as proficient with bananas as Diddy Kongs. You yourself pointed to M2K not being proficient with banana peels.

Regardless, you should recognize that it is in fact yourself speaking in theory, you are the one asking "what if" questions like:

What if a former dedicated Diddy Kong main decided to abandon ship and jump on the Meta Knight bandwagon?

I'm speaking to the reality of the situation. The reality is the top Diddy players today use bananas better than the top MK players. What happens in the future is uncharted, maybe your thoughts will reign true, I doubt it though.

Assuming I'm at Genesis you can try MK versus my Diddy Kong. You may win, but you will win because of what Meta Knight can do in general, not because of what you could do with my bananas.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Assuming I'm at Genesis you can try MK versus my Diddy Kong. You may win, but you will win because of what Meta Knight can do in general, not because of what you could do with my bananas.

I think he tried to make exactly this point.

 

[Le_THieN]

I think he tried to make exactly this point.

LOL. I quit Brawl.