You are right that M2K does not utilize bananas as well as he could...but that does not subtract significantly from the MK mains/Diddy secondaries or people that train with top diddys on a regular basis (You can't deny that people that play against Diddy on a regular basis get very proficient with bananas, come to NJ and you will find a plethora of MK's that secondary MK or have beaten NL, I wil fear the day when M2K learns to use bananas, until then, I think it is possible to beat him with flaw less play)...I think the majority of this topic has been based off of the MK's that can catch bananas with Dairs/whatever and deploy them appropriately and those that can't(Proficient/Not, even though some people take it beyond that level)...Even though M2K doesn't maximize his use of the bananas, I think that it is still significant that he beats the best Diddy on a consistent basis...Therefore, although I hate stating ratios, I think that it is not even, probably somewhere around the 60-40 range.
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The vs. MK match-up is probably worse for Diddy than 60-40
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
- Status
Nitrix
Smash Ace
M2K isn't stupid, there is a reason why he is so good. M2K doesn't have trouble with bananas because he cannot use them, he has trouble because Diddy can control them and keep them away.
I think that this matchup is around 50:50 to 55:45 in MK's favour. What M2K said on the first page was correct.
I know M2K isn't stupid, he has the best edge game out there...And he doesn't have trouble against bananas, but I have played MKs that use them to their advantage or avoided them better than M2K. I don't know about recently, but before he said that he mostly practiced against CPU's so basically he's just relying on his generic strategy when playing against other people, which is why he is so good...when he keeps on playing against top Diddys such as ADHD and NL, his ability with bananas is naturally going to increase, making him nearly unbeatable. (I'm basically just agreeing with LeThien)
Even if the matchup is 55:45 or closer to 50:50 in favor of MK on neutrals (Nevermind that FD is 50-50 or better, it is always banned), due to his far better CPs, it would still be around 60:40 for MK to win the set...
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Sorry, Pierce, this matchup is definitely close to even.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Coooooool, thanks guy
Dekar173
Justice Man
Oh silly silly people.
MK vs Diddy is 60:40 at BEST. AKA, a not so great match-up. There is no debating it, and it's not opinion. Merely fact. Soon enough it will be obvious to everyone exactly why (the reasons Hanson so kindly brought up,) but that's all theory, so we'll just have to wait until MKs catch up to what they can theoretically do, OR until MK is banned and merely a disgusting feature in our not so happy past.
Either way, he's right.
MK vs Diddy is 60:40 at BEST. AKA, a not so great match-up. There is no debating it, and it's not opinion. Merely fact. Soon enough it will be obvious to everyone exactly why (the reasons Hanson so kindly brought up,) but that's all theory, so we'll just have to wait until MKs catch up to what they can theoretically do, OR until MK is banned and merely a disgusting feature in our not so happy past.
Either way, he's right.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Thank you for defending your argument.
I'm not saying you should discard everything that MK can do with bananas because "you're just going to be better than him." However, Diddy has an advantage in banana control in the fact that he can spawn them whenever he wants, something the MK can not do.
In general, Diddy has better known options of controlling bananas so the MK doesn't get them in the first place. His good glide toss length lets him dribble from one to the other, keeping them in his control. In general, Diddy has better options getting back bananas too or when the opponent has bananas, if only because of rocket-barrel canceling.
I have to agree with AZ; in theory, MK could have a ton of new banana tricks not known to people because he spent so much time with the match-up, but we can't bring theoretical stuff MK might be able to do with bananas to the table. If anything, the simple fact that Diddy can spawn bananas whenever he wants to ultimately gives him more control of them.
I realize that bananas aren't the only point of this match-up, but for this point, Diddy should realistically win. However, this doesn't mean be lax with your banana control or completely discard anything MK can do with your bananas (you still have to play smart for this aspect to be in your favour).
I'm not saying you should discard everything that MK can do with bananas because "you're just going to be better than him." However, Diddy has an advantage in banana control in the fact that he can spawn them whenever he wants, something the MK can not do.
In general, Diddy has better known options of controlling bananas so the MK doesn't get them in the first place. His good glide toss length lets him dribble from one to the other, keeping them in his control. In general, Diddy has better options getting back bananas too or when the opponent has bananas, if only because of rocket-barrel canceling.
I have to agree with AZ; in theory, MK could have a ton of new banana tricks not known to people because he spent so much time with the match-up, but we can't bring theoretical stuff MK might be able to do with bananas to the table. If anything, the simple fact that Diddy can spawn bananas whenever he wants to ultimately gives him more control of them.
I realize that bananas aren't the only point of this match-up, but for this point, Diddy should realistically win. However, this doesn't mean be lax with your banana control or completely discard anything MK can do with your bananas (you still have to play smart for this aspect to be in your favour).
This.
Question: If simply holding an item first weren't an advantage then why would anyone be against items play in Brawl?
Answer: holding an item first is an advantage. The result is people point to random spawns as giving unfair/random advantages.
Overall its slightly in MK's favor. However I still firmly believe with more time it will become Diddy's favor. There are so many things that still need to be worked into my game for me to even think I'm close to mastering the character, not the least of which are: single nana locks, non-dash attack picks up, instant throws, shield bouncing, using more than just the F-tilt, etc etc. Despite lacking of all these things I'm still the best Diddy Kong in the MW and the only MK I probably can't beat is Judge, who I have yet to play (and think I would stand a good chance to win at least a game off of him).
Essentially, I have tons of room to improve with Diddy Kong and I am considered close to the top of Diddy's current metagame.
How much more room do Meta Knights have to improve at the top of MK's metagame? What things are have been discovered recently that makes MK better? What type of things can MK do that are limited in a players execution/technical skill like Diddy's nana lock (answer, everything MK does is easy to perform, so there isn't the same learning curves as Diddy).
Diddy is a character that went from 20th, to 14th, to 11th, to 10th, to 7th, to 7th, to 5th, and now currently 4th on Ankoku's list. He is a character that still few people play. He has far more potential than anyone is utilizing. He is also been moving on a curve up the ranks of characters, and that curve has yet to stabilize (Diddy is just a stones throw away from third on Ankoku's list). To assume we know anything about Diddy's potential, when even just 3-6 months ago many thought Diddy had peaked, would be niave.
There is plenty debating it. People who think the match up is 60-40 or worse are in the minority and most of the notable players of BOTH characters believe the match up to be close to even.
~^.NoiR.^~
Smash Ace
Diddy is so easy to edge guard with MK it's stupid. All you need is timing and practice. If you use B and ONLY b in a strategical way I'm sure anyone can get MK banned. Not only can the tornado be used to stall, but it's almost invincible against every move in the game. Play MK smart enough and he easily has advantage over all characters. You think tournament results with mostly MK's is a coincidence?
Ingulit
Ing-u-lit
Ignore this; my point was invalid by the time I posted.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
This is the only concession I was looking for. Whether or not any other character that is at his or her hypothetical "peak of the meta-game" can be as proficient as Diddy Kong is in terms of banana peel control remains to be said; everyone here recognizes that proponents of either camp are just using theoretical posturing to illustrate their points.
The other disconnect I realize that is happening here is that I was arguing the case of Meta Knight having the (slight) overall favor in this match-up, while you guys were arguing that Diddy should usually have the advantage in one specific aspect of the match-up. I understand that the discussion got hijacked at some point and devolved into a dialogue exclusively about banana control, but I'm just trying to bring it back to the original point of the OP: who has the advantage in the match-up, and how big do we believe this edge is?
I have never argued anything against Diddy Kong's potential. Conversely, though, the discussion here is not concerned with how Diddy might be able to handle certain match-ups in the future, but how this one specific match-up goes with the way that it is played now.
As an aside, I still happen to think that Diddy is overrated on the tier list.
Name-dropping without actually using anybody's names is still name-dropping. I also don't know how I feel about my stance on the matter being shoehorned into the minority category, just because it goes against the grain of the popular groupthink you've subscribed to.
We shouldn't look at what the best players of each character think? The same people who are also supposedly the ones playing match up to perfection?
Most people that say the match up is worse than 60-40 don't even know anything about the match up (Marth mains like Pierce). You are among a very small few who actually knows the match up and will say its worse than 60-40 (did you even say this, actually?).
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
No, I actually never attached a ratio to it, because mathematical approximations of match-ups are the most ridiculous things ever. I just said that the match-up was not even, and that Meta Knight at the advantage. I do feel that 4:6 in MK's favor, while it is manageable, is still a big enough margin of favor that reflects the most accurate estimate. A ratio of 4 against 6 is precisely what a tournament set is (best 2/3 or 3/5), and this is precisely the margin that ADHD lost to M2K to in their last meeting. I don't even know how you would even be able to reason that this can be any closer than it already is, other than the fact that 45:55 somehow looks aesthetically pleasing and instills false hope into up-and-coming Diddy faithfuls.
Either way, I guess I'm in your suggested "minority" of people who thinks that the match-up is 4:6 against Diddy's favor. I don't know what your criteria for "top player" is and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you or anyone else don't really regard me as such, but I think I have done my best to offer a compelling argument for my case, especially since I have actually played the best Meta Knights from multiple regions (if that even amounts to anything to you).
For reference I don't like numbers either, which is why I usually just say "slightly in x characters favor" or "in x characters favor".
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
LOL, I was going to edit my post because I realized I was just perpetuating a stupid argument.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I think we all mostly agree MK has the slight edge in this match-up, and I think we can all live with that.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I think we all mostly agree MK has the slight edge in this match-up, and I think we can all live with that.
The Sauce Boss
Smash Ace
this sums up the entire thread
Player-1
Smash Legend
@Noir, punishing MKs tornado with Diddy is so easy it's not even funny... lol
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
saberhof
Smash Master
In before close =D!!
diddy has a better chance than any other character ^_^ so thats good enough for me
diddy has a better chance than any other character ^_^ so thats good enough for me
Dekar173
Justice Man
Diddy has a chance until MK mains decide to up their game and actually learn the match-up. Even then, it's like a 55:45 match-up. Then MK becomes the official CP to Diddy
ADHD
Smash Hero
NOooooooooooooo.............Diddy has a chance until MK mains decide to up their game and actually learn the match-up. Even then, it's like a 55:45 match-up. Then MK becomes the official CP to Diddy
Player-1
Smash Legend
NOooooooooooooo.............Diddy has a chance until MK mains decide to up their game and actually learn the match-up. Even then, it's like a 55:45 match-up. Then MK becomes the official CP to Diddy
Kaptain Kong
Smash Lord
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but seriously, MK is pretty tough already
but seriously, MK is pretty tough already
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
What?Diddy has a chance until MK mains decide to up their game and actually learn the match-up. Even then, it's like a 55:45 match-up. Then MK becomes the official CP to Diddy
Also, could you please actually defend your statements? It's annoying to see baseless claims pop up.
(and just no at MK being Diddy counter).
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