The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[John12346]

Alright, then I'd like to bring up the next obvious question...

I'm kind of scared of where this is going to lead to, but let's do it.

What is the reason for giving characters outside of MK a LGL?

 

[Steam]

The BBR-RC's john for why every character has a LGL, despite no planking other than MKs being broken, is that they want it to look good for sponsors. I'm not sure if Tesh supports that or not, but that's the reason we've been given, just saying.

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with making rules to increase the health of the game/community

 

[WindMajor]

Alright, then I'd like to bring up the next obvious question...

I'm kind of scared of where this is going to lead to, but let's do it.

What is the reason for giving characters outside of MK a LGL?

My first guess would be this: http://bit.ly/lab12Z

My second guess would be that global LGLs have been the norm for years.

 

[John12346]

I... uh, kinda confused myself there

The approach sounded a lot better in my head, but whatever

Are there any other reasons outside of the game not looking good?

 

[DRDN]

I think the point is if a game looks good or fun it can attract more viewers if people are playing gay or the games not entertaining its not as good to watch

people watching=hits on the stream=people seeing the advertising=the major companies getting money.

Thats why the BBR-rc or whoever wants the game to look good so they can get more appeal to the sponsors and grow the community itself. Honestly Im tired of quad MK doubles throughout the WF LF AND GF that ****s boring. And if I (someone who loves this game) am bored by it its not going to attract new people. And same for singles watching the top 10 all have MK on their team is dumb and boring you feel like you just watched the same thing 8 different times.

I think we could get more sponsored if the whole community played with MK banned because there would be so many "Big Names" because there would be a Best (insert Char name here) that would be going head to head ALL TOURNAMENT! for nationals and locals/regionals would be like watching your favorites or Hometown heroes progress during the off season.

Hell if you consider Esports real you can be happy to tell your favorite pro some tips on how to improve their game every local you go to.

 

[Tesh]

If M2K outplayed someone by picking MK on Rainbow Cruise, then why don't we allow people to "outplay" others by picking Donkey Kong, Pit, GnW and planking for a long time?

 

[WindMajor]

Because people already found a band-aid solution for planking that almost makes sense, and is generally well received.

The same can't be said for MK on RC.

 

[Yikarur]

ban MK/Rainbow cruise? =D

 

[WindMajor]

How did I not see that coming?

 

[Yikarur]

it's your fault for making statements that lead to obvious reactions

 

[WindMajor]

I must not be a morning person.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Either am I.

I do understand the make the game pretty argument in the sense, no one wants to sponsor a game where people are trying to making themselves near untouchable on the ledge for a whole match.

 

[ElDominio]

Because people already found a band-aid solution for planking that almost makes sense, and is generally well received.

The same can't be said for MK on RC.

QFT

Something I have learned:
There is ONE thing gayer than MK
A community that doesn't know how to fix their problems.

 

[Tesh]

When I refer to the "make game pretty for sponsors" I'm hoping people will be able to infer the entire concept that entails. Obviously sponsors don't give a crap what the game looks like or what people are doing on the screen. What matters it that the game/community will make them money and get some exposure. But if the people that are still left in the community don't even want to see that garbage that happens every time M2K goes to RC, do you really think sponsors will expect that to draw newcomers in?

When I watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN2Tc3tbKDk at no point was I thinking "holy crap, where can I buy this game and associated products or services".

Sponsors want a game with a growing community, not a shrinking one.

 

[Reizilla]

If that wasn't a fkning hype *** match in your eyes, there's something wrong with you.

 

[DRDN]

So does this open up another ban RC debate

 

[Tesh]

I honestly think RC is a dumb stage in general, but banning it won't solve the issue with MK. A few more stages need to go at least for that to work.

 

[DRDN]

Then there would be no stages left...

And that video was the definition of anti-Hype

 

[John12346]

Well, to be fair, some of the things Bizkit did during that match was hype

So was the commentary

Not MK, though...

Also we'd lose a lot of perfectly viable stages if we were to change the stagelist to make MK non-dominant...

 

[ElDominio]

I honestly think RC is a dumb stage in general, but banning it won't solve the issue with MK. A few more stages need to go at least for that to work.

Stages aren't the problem....

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

That match was still pretty hype....

In Brawl you are rewarded for not approaching. M2K did this throughout the entire match and attacked at opportune moments. He was being smart more than anything else. Fighting snake head on puts you at a MAJOR disadvantage...so you want M2K to be FORCED into a bad situation because you think what he does is "gay"? That doesn't make much sense, and him running away like that is still much more appealing than somebody planking all match in one spot...

 

[Ussi]

I don't have a gripe with the gameplay...

I just have a gripe with the variety.


Also variety sells.

 

[xDD-Master]

The MK rule

Finally I made an extra thread for this.
This may turnout pretty well, I already have support from some people regarding this rule.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I guess there is only MK at tournaments.

Oh wait...at CoT5 it was

1. MK
2. MK
3. G&W/ICs
4. Olimar
5. Snake
5. Falco/MK

and at WHOBO3

1. MK/Snake
2. Snake
3. MK
4. Diddy
5. DK

So little diversity there right?

 

[Scatz]

WHOBO 3 had no LGL IIRC. I remember WHOBO 2 being inflated with MKs.

 

[Player-1]

whobo 3 only had a LGL for MK

 

[Reizilla]

No you don't. Less than half the top 16. WHOBO 2 had the same LGL, iirc.

 

[Scatz]

It was one of the WHOBOs being inflated with MKs, and I'm too lazy to go look up the information to make sure I was right. I'm not talking about the LGLs with the other WHOBOs because only 3 was different.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

MK has been taking around 7-9 of the top 16 spots at nationals forever. Talking about a few years ago is irrelevant to the current discussion. Nowadays, MK takes 7-9 of the top 16. Is this high for a top character? Yes, but Smash is a unique game that isn't purely MUs, it is MUs and stages, which makes it more important to be able to play on multiple stages, and MK is the best at it.

 

[DRDN]

Well 50% of Cot5s top 6 is MK so no not really

 

[Ussi]

I guess there is only MK at tournaments.

Oh wait...at CoT5 it was

1. MK
2. MK
3. G&W/ICs
4. Olimar
5. Snake
5. Falco/MK

and at WHOBO3

1. MK/Snake
2. Snake
3. MK
4. Diddy
5. DK

So little diversity there right?

The little diversity is overshadowed at the number of sucessful mk mains

 

[Tesh]

ESAM, I don't get you. You seem to imply that MK isn't broken because he ONLY wins half of everything. You think he needs to be 100% unstoppable to be worth banning. And yet you guys think its okay to put an LGL on Ganondorf? Just because the stage moves, doesn't mean it was more entertaining/less gay. I've seen the stage before and the stage alone no longer entertains me.

Basically MK is gay but he hasn't 100% ruined the entire game yet so don't ban or limit him right?

But Pit planking shouldn't be allowed right? Or Yoshi? Or Captain Falcon?

 

[Reizilla]

Tesh, you are one of the campiest, lamest players. You have no right to say watching MK on Rainbow is boring. You play freaking Sonic. ****'s boring on every stage. That has nothing to do with competitive viability.

 

[DRDN]

wait esam where's your data from I'm on whobos results and DK got 7th not 5th vinnie and atomsk got 5th atomsk being MK and the other 7th was shugo using falco/MK

And let's look at the dubs for whobo top 8 had 3 teams without an MK meaning 5 with him including 3 that had MK on both peoples chars

 

[Tesh]

Tesh, you are one of the campiest, lamest players. You have no right to say watching MK on Rainbow is boring. You play freaking Sonic. ****'s boring on every stage. That has nothing to do with competitive viability.

I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Player-1]

Really the only things I see that are viable arguments for MK being banned ATM are:
1. Some stages become nearly unwinnable against a good MK, and the only problem with the stage is MK, and banning a stage just because of 1 character is pretty dumb. Although, I'm not sure why we make it so that MK can't CP those stages if it's really that broken for him (brinstar and RC seem to be the most potent ones, but I really don't see RC being that bad personally).

2. Banning things that are overcentralizing, including character choice. I really don't know the statistics of how many people play MK in the whole smash community or how much MK there is at the top of the results, but if it's "overcentralizing" then I would say that's another viable argument.

 

[John12346]

Just so everyone knows the data, in case you haven't read Ripple's thread, MK's used around 20% of the time and wins roughly 45% of all tournament money, as far as 2011.

If we narrow it down to tournies with at least 30 entrants, AKA regionals and nationals, as well as big locals, it goes up to 50% of all tournament money.

Does that prove overcentralization?

How about dominance?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

ESAM, I don't get you. You seem to imply that MK isn't broken because he ONLY wins half of everything. You think he needs to be 100% unstoppable to be worth banning. And yet you guys think its okay to put an LGL on Ganondorf? Just because the stage moves, doesn't mean it was more entertaining/less gay. I've seen the stage before and the stage alone no longer entertains me.

Basically MK is gay but he hasn't 100% ruined the entire game yet so don't ban or limit him right?

But Pit planking shouldn't be allowed right? Or Yoshi? Or Captain Falcon?

Lol I guess MK has no limits. Hell, if we don't put any limits on MK at all he is 100% bannable. He hits his opponent and IDCs forever. Game over. He would be banned for sure. If they aren't confident at that, they could hit their opponent once and plank forever. Those 2 strategies are completely viable by our ruleset because we are so Pro-MK and we never limit him.........oh wait a minute, yes we do limit him. I'm not saying he isn't amazing by far, I'm not saying he isn't broken, I'm not saying he ISN'T bannable. What I'm saying is that, at least for now, we AREN'T going to ban him. This is still the beginning of Unity and we want most/all TOs to use our ruleset and become one nation with the same rules. Then we want to reach out to some other countries. We can't do this by ****ing banning MK. That would make no country/TO that is Anti-ban listen to us, which pretty much defeats the whole point of the system! As of now, we want Unity, not perfection, and we are trying to perform the latter to the best of our abilities while still acquiring and maintaining the former.

wait esam where's your data from I'm on whobos results and DK got 7th not 5th vinnie and atomsk got 5th atomsk being MK and the other 7th was shugo using falco/MK

And let's look at the dubs for whobo top 8 had 3 teams without an MK meaning 5 with him including 3 that had MK on both peoples chars

My bad...I was doing the results off of memory. Teams is a different issue altogether...

Really the only things I see that are viable arguments for MK being banned ATM are:
1. Some stages become nearly unwinnable against a good MK, and the only problem with the stage is MK, and banning a stage just because of 1 character is pretty dumb. Although, I'm not sure why we make it so that MK can't CP those stages if it's really that broken for him (brinstar and RC seem to be the most potent ones, but I really don't see RC being that bad personally).

2. Banning things that are overcentralizing, including character choice. I really don't know the statistics of how many people play MK in the whole smash community or how much MK there is at the top of the results, but if it's "overcentralizing" then I would say that's another viable argument.

G&W, Wario, Pikachu, and Snake all have really good chances against MK on RC. I know less about Brinstar since my characters auto-ban it so I don't really pay attention to the success rates on that stage much...it is also banned a lot by players in sets...so there is much less data on it.




You guys have to realize something. Being the best character in the game = more players using that character. More players using that character = more high-top level players playing that character. More high-top level players playing that character = faster metagame development. Faster metagame development = more players = more high level players = etc.

One of the reasons MK is so dominant is because other than MK, there are no more than 3-4 top mains of another character in the U.S.!

Snake has Razer, Fatal, MVD, and Ally.
Diddy has ADHD, Felix, and Gnes.
Falco has DEHF and Shugo.
Marth has Mike Haze
Pikachu has myself
Wario doesn't really have one
D3 has Coney
Lucario has Junebug and Trela
Olimar has Rich Brown and Dabuz.

Now...MK has

Anti, M2K, Ally, Seibrik, Nairo, Tyrant, Dojo, and Jem

Spoiler

probably missing some, this is off the top of my head

Thats 8 players that place in the money within their region. EIGHT!! With the large amount of high/top players, their metagame will OBVIOUSLY progress the fastest which only makes the character better!'

It isn't only that MK is the best character, but he has also been progressing the fastest out of any character by a LARGE margin.

 

[Ussi]

Its been 3 years... Not only is MK progessed so much on how to play as him, but also HOW TO PLAY AGAINST him as well :|

MK is really really hard to exploit any weakness against..

 

[stingers]

i have a question...what is the functional difference between MK on RC and Sonic on Hyrule?