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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

DRDN

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I'm not going to say that wasn't a biased vid but what about that 3 stock was close

And any ics vs a good marth probably wouldn't get 3 stocked on fd because there's nothing stopping the marth from playing he still has all options available it was the lava screwing snake up from being able to escape attacks and try to fight back
 

John12346

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There's also the part where ONE character out of a cast of 38(counting Sheik, Z-Sheik, and Zamus as separate entities) is used 20% of the time and takes close to HALF of all tournament money. MK also has the greatest money won/usage ratio, which speaks lengths about his ability as a character.

Do we see any dominance like that in any RECENT fighting games?

The argument of "It's too late to ban MK!" doesn't work. Times change, and new data is uncovered over time. Our situation with MK has gotten WORSE since the 4th ban vote.
 

Steam

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There's also the part where ONE character out of a cast of 38(counting Sheik, Z-Sheik, and Zamus as separate entities) is used 20% of the time and takes close to HALF of all tournament money. MK also has the greatest money won/usage ratio, which speaks lengths about his ability as a character.

Do we see any dominance like that in any RECENT fighting games?

The argument of "It's too late to ban MK!" doesn't work. Times change, and new data is uncovered over time. Our situation with MK has gotten WORSE since the 4th ban vote.
all of this with a ruleset designed to nerf MK specifically

also from what I've been finding, Sagat didn't do that great at the top top level. of course this was only from a few nationals/internationals, but it's still very significant.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
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All I see from your numbers is that people want to win, so they do the smartest thing and play the best character.

MvC2 had like 7 viable teams, most with Sentinel. He probably saw something like 70% usage. MvC3 Wolverine is more broken than MK could dream of.
 

DRDN

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Ever since MvC has come out I have had no problem against any char if the player was better they'd win if they tried a cheap team id win

My original team was weapon X and the only problem was I suck with deadpool and don't like keep away I can beat wolvies with X-23 or phoenix just as easily as with another wolvie he's not hard just learn to block right and punish
 

Steam

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No. And people didn't really ***** much about him either, despite him being one of the easiest characters in the game to play and having some really stupid matchups (Sagat vs Zangief is like 80-20). Which should say something about the smash scene.
then sagat probably isn't as good compared to other characters as MK

and like every character is broken in marvel lol
 

John12346

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Alright, then as far as SSF4, here's their matchup list: http://bbr.s23.eatj.com/matchupper/
It's community generated by over 500 people and was made back in April, so there you have it. I also see no character dominance whatsoever on that list.

As far as MvC3, I'm not really sure about their scene, but everyone seems to disagree about who the best characters in the game are, so there.
Steam said it better than I did. Everyone having 0-deaths does tend to make things... broken.
 

BSP

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If you don't think he has enough percentage now, just wait.

His numbers just keep rising, so he's get there eventually.
 

Reizilla

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Whoops, not SSF4. Vanilla SF4. My bad. Steam, it's not that he's not dominant, it's that people in SF are more mature and man up and learn their matchups/stick to their character instead of *****ing for bans and switching when something gets hard. Other reason the huge dominance isn't there is because Daigo played Ryu :p

DRDN, beating random Wolvies doesn't count. A good one will put you into 60/40s multiple times in a row, at least 2 or 3. You can't "just block right" when that's happening.
 

Steam

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Whoops, not SSF4. Vanilla SF4. My bad. Steam, it's not that he's not dominant, it's that people in SF are more mature and man up and learn their matchups/stick to their character instead of *****ing for bans and switching when something gets hard. Other reason the huge dominance isn't there is because Daigo played Ryu :p

DRDN, beating random Wolvies doesn't count. A good one will put you into 60/40s multiple times in a row, at least 2 or 3. You can't "just block right" when that's happening.
people who didn't man up are already gone lol. everyone at this point knows the MK matchup far better than any other. and MK is only getting better. even with a ruleset that limits him.
 

Tagxy

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The ruleset doesnt really limit him. If anything it caters towards him.
Fun fact: MK in brawl has very similar matchup ratios to Sagat in Street Fighter 4.
You dont even need to go that far. Pikachu in 64 has no even MUs and actually owns most of the cast.
There's also the part where ONE character out of a cast of 38(counting Sheik, Z-Sheik, and Zamus as separate entities) is used 20% of the time and takes close to HALF of all tournament money. MK also has the greatest money won/usage ratio, which speaks lengths about his ability as a character.
This is irrelevant to whether he should be banned or not. Especially considering almost everyone is just too lazy to learn how to fight MK and would rather just have things handed to them. Which also explains why some people end up switching to MK.
Our situation with MK has gotten WORSE since the 4th ban vote.
IMO things have been better, though doubles has become worse.
 

Tagxy

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Stages and as suspect sad, a hard item ban. Id sooner add items in an intelligent way than ban MK.
 

Reizilla

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Eh, I wouldn't say it caters towards him, just that nearly anything you don't take away is an advantage for him, since he's overall better at pretty much everything in this game. Only thing taken away from him is how many times he can grab the ledge.

Scrooging isn't banned. Starters have nothing to do with whether or not they're good for MK. In this situation, people just like mostly static stages which happen to be MK's worst. And there are quite a lot of people that argue for a stagelist that would "make him even better" anyway.
 

Suspect

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MvC is a team based game

Vanilla SF4, people cried about sagat being the best even tho he never won any national/majors supposedly

SF is totally different than brawl, physics wise and everything.

Stop comparing brawl to other games please. Just looking for a scapegoat
 

BSP

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Eh, I wouldn't say it caters towards him, just that nearly anything you don't take away is an advantage for him, since he's overall better at pretty much everything in this game. Only thing taken away from him is how many times he can grab the ledge.
And his IDC and EDC ;)

Our rulest explicitly nerfs/bans some of MK's strongest options lol
 

Steam

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Stages and as suspect sad, a hard item ban. Id sooner add items in an intelligent way than ban MK.
I dunno... you force MK to play on his worst stages 2 out of 3 games per set.... imagine doing that to like falco

@QB= if everything you don't take away is an advantage for him... then that just kind of speaks to how good of a character he is.
 

Reizilla

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Been so long I forgot about those xP

Yeah, he's a good character. And there are still even matchups for him. So that speaks enough to warrant that he's not even that broken.
 

Steam

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Been so long I forgot about those xP

Yeah, he's a good character. And there are still even matchups for him. So that speaks enough to warrant that he's not even that broken.
the matchups in the matchup chart aren't exactly reliable... the MKs kinda sugarcoated them lol. the lucario boards had to fight to get a -2 matchup when the MKs gave only a -1 ratio... and anyone who knows that matchup knows -1 is rediculous especially when you consider MK's CP. I know a similar situation happened with MK/D3. Also Pikachu nearly got an advantaged matchup on MK lol...
 

John12346

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Why would we be talking about the older incarnation of a game?

People know that Xbox/PS3 fighting games get patched/balanced at times. They probably waited for that instead of *****ing about a character.
 

Reizilla

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Because it was still around for a few years and has comparable data. SF4 is a much simpler game as well, so there's not nearly as much of a learning phase as Brawl has had. It was pretty much that way since the start.
 

Scatz

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the matchups in the matchup chart aren't exactly reliable... the MKs kinda sugarcoated them lol. the lucario boards had to fight to get a -2 matchup when the MKs gave only a -1 ratio... and anyone who knows that matchup knows -1 is rediculous especially when you consider MK's CP. I know a similar situation happened with MK/D3. Also Pikachu nearly got an advantaged matchup on MK lol...
Something I can actually agree with you. Most of the MKs still think that Yoshi does good vs him when at top level, Yoshi get bodied.
 

Tagxy

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The starter list with 5 and 7 doesnt start MK on one of his worst stages, although it might in specific MUs. And everyone else has to deal with their opponents CP just like MK.
 

Tesh

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I can imagine the type of dumb stuff that might have been "fixed" if Nintendo could/would patch Brawl. Ike would have been nerfed hard I bet.
 

John12346

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First off, about my data. Stop saying it doesn't prove anything. You can plainly see that it, at the very least, proves MK overcentralizes the game to the point where he is selected 1 in 5 times when we have a whole cast of 38 characters. To a lesser extent, MK's dominance shines through with the whole "money won/usage" ratio business. He has the highest, AKA MK receives the more money than any other character for being picked once.

Stop saying "lol this proves nothing" and giving arbitrary, useless explanations for why the data is as it is. It proves MK's enormous presence in the meta-game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Because it was still around for a few years and has comparable data. SF4 is a much simpler game as well, so there's not nearly as much of a learning phase as Brawl has had. It was pretty much that way since the start.
A game doesn't become mainstream because of simplicity... It's generally the latest game, and lo and behold, it was a balanced remake of the unbalanced game. Why would anyone cry about a character when they know they can just wait for a balance patch?

The starter list with 5 and 7 doesnt start MK on one of his worst stages, although it might in specific MUs. And everyone else has to deal with their opponents CP just like MK.
The starter list doesn't have Delfino, Frigate, RC, or Brinstar.

Just because MK still wins on starter stages doesn't mean they're not his worst stages.
 

Tagxy

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No theyre honestly not his worst stages, except maybe FD. Just because theyre not his best 4 doesnt mean theyre his worst.

Also Ive never understood the 'consipiracies'. MK mains conspiracy to keep MUs low rather than having their own opinion. Conspiracy to create an anti-mk ruleset. Conpiracy that the 4th ban vote was close because of lies and alt accounts. How about using the more logical explanation...
 
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