The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Grim Tuesday]

I think that the Unity should involve striking from the entire current legal stage list...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, supports, sure. But it definitely doesn't PROVE his argument...

I mean, those results could just as easily support the theory that, not only is MK broken on Brinstar and RC, but he's also broken(maybe not as much, though) on his "throwback" counterpicks, Delfino and Frigate, since he was basically forced to pick one of those two stages on his CP and still seemed to dominate the tourney all the same.

So... Ban Frigate and Delfino?

This is toward ESAM, AZ, or any other BRC member who is willing to answer.

What is the BRC's general opinion on FLoSSing? I understand that as far as encouraging unity it is a bit controversial but does the BRC recognize it for its merits over all other systems in essentially all other regards?

IIRC it was something like "even if it is good, we're not going to implement it because it's simply too big of a change to force on people". And I agree with that sentiment-after all, there are still idiots who think that striking from 5 stages (or, god forbid, 3) is a better idea than from 7 or 9.

 

[King Funk]

MK is not even close to being as broken on Delfino and Frigate as he is on Brinstar and RC.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK is not even close to being as broken on Delfino and Frigate as he is on Brinstar and RC.

But that's the thing. His results point to RC and Brinstar not really making that much of a difference.

 

[Yikarur]

"MK is still winning even without RC/Brinstar" is the WORST argument I've ever hard for keeping them in.

 

[John12346]

I... wasn't trying to prove any point... I just wanted to see what conclusions you guys would draw.

Of course MK isn't as broken on Delfino and Frigate as he is on Brinstar and RC, but what we need to determine is whether or not the broken-ness lost by forcing MK to go to a throwback CP rather than one of his normal CPs is or isn't enough to bridge the way to consistent victory like he has when he has Brinstar and RC available.

With that poorly worded sentence in mind, and the results and data we have before us, I can only think of three possible conclusions it can lead to...

- MK isn't as broken on Brinstar and RC as we thought, with the magnitude of advantages gained on either stage comparable to those gained on Delfino and Frigate. The explanation for MK's successes are attributed to the fact he's just an overall excellent/broken(your choice) character.
- Delfino and Frigate provide a magnitude of advantages to MK comparable to, but less than, the magnitude of advantages gained on Brinstar and RC, slightly less so that results for MK are generally unaffected. The explanation for MK's successes are attributed to the fact he has too many excellent CP stages.
- Everything above in cyan.

I don't really have an opinion on the matter, I just want to see what you guys think.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why don't we just ban MK?

Or, strike from the entire legal stage list so he never gets to use them?

Or, have two stage bans?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

or ban MK?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^Easily the best solution.

 

[DeLux]

Why are Turbo controllers not deemed illegal by the rulesset?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Cause there is nothing wrong with them...?

 

[Ghostbone]

Cause there is nothing wrong with them...?

Gives unfair advantages and what not.

Plus most also have a macro on it and that's giving someone an advantage not related to gameplay.....if that makes sense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ignoreignoreignore

 

[Ghostbone]

/also ignore

 

[King Funk]

Wow got attacked by Malware for trying to post a reply. I guess this thread doesn't want anti MK banners to post.

How about you TRY to have a stagelist without RC and Brinstar? Have you ever TRIED it before? I don't think I have ever seen an american stagelist that bans them both. In fact, the only stagelist in the USA that even comes close to it is Alex Strife's stagelist for Apex, which bans Brinstar.

Spoiler

(inb4bpcbutps2isban'd)

Why? It's not just because he "cares about OOC players" but it's also because he's one of the only TO's out there who is willing to experiment with something instead of deeming it an automatic failure IN THEORY.

Good stuff guys, you don't give him a sticky on the tourney listings or full featuring on AiB because he's doing something different. With all that Alex does for the community, is that how you thank him? You limited the TO's freedom of making the stagelist they think are the best for competitive Brawl. If players don't like a stagelist a TO proposes for his tournament, then they don't need to attend that event.

Most of Europe uses a stagelist that bans RC but keeps Brinstar. It was used at BBI as well as every big european tournament ever since and it was very well received. There are some variations sometimes. The germans have PS2 in the counterpicks and the dutch banned both RC and Brinstar. And having heard opinions from many dutch players, they thought it was great.

Seriously, try it out. 6 months or something. At least you'll have REAL PROOF of whether a more conservative stagelist helps or not.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Gives unfair advantages and what not.

Plus most also have a macro on it and that's giving someone an advantage not related to gameplay.....if that makes sense.

How is it unfair?

 

[-Jumpman-]

But that's the thing. His results point to RC and Brinstar not really making that much of a difference.

They do. MK is absolutely broken on Brinstar, it's ridiculous. Last tourney I almost lost to a Yoshi (had a bad day lol), I CPd Brinstar and 2 stocked him without issues. I never counter pick to imbalanced stages, for I lack experience on these stages. However, even without experience on Brinstar I easily destroyed my opponent. On Delfino or Frigate this wouldn't have happened.

 

[DRDN]

How is it unfair?

I've never used macro before but couldnt you program a button to say Bdacus with it making you not actually doing said advanced technique?

 

[Ghostbone]

I've never used macro before but couldnt you program a button to say Bdacus with it making you not actually doing said advanced technique?

Basically stuff like this. Another example would be programming it to do D3's infinite on Snake which is impossibly hard normally.

A macro button allows you to bypass a skill required for competing basically. It's also an external advantage (one not related to the game, compared to an internal advantage which would be like, picking a better character)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wow got attacked by Malware for trying to post a reply. I guess this thread doesn't want anti MK banners to post.

I have no problem.

How about you TRY to have a stagelist without RC and Brinstar? Have you ever TRIED it before? I don't think I have ever seen an american stagelist that bans them both. In fact, the only stagelist in the USA that even comes close to it is Alex Strife's stagelist for Apex, which bans Brinstar.

Spoiler

(inb4bpcbutps2isban'd)

Why? It's not just because he "cares about OOC players" but it's also because he's one of the only TO's out there who is willing to experiment with something instead of deeming it an automatic failure IN THEORY.

Hmm... Okay, so he's trying something huge and new and you're giving him credit for going against the grain on the issue. All right. Lemme get back to that in a second.

Good stuff guys, you don't give him a sticky on the tourney listings or full featuring on AiB because he's doing something different. With all that Alex does for the community, is that how you thank him? You limited the TO's freedom of making the stagelist they think are the best for competitive Brawl. If players don't like a stagelist a TO proposes for his tournament, then they don't need to attend that event.

Except that the rules made it very clear: to get stickied/featured, you have to use the unity ruleset. Alex had the choice to comply or... not get stickied. Seeing as there is literally no other material pressure that the ruleset enforces, I'd consider that a thoroughly reasonable demand. We're not taking special pleading, we're not making exceptions, and if APEX 2012 needs a sticky then god help the smash scene-it is the single largest, most hyped tournament in the history of Smash, and if we have such low attention spans that we need it stickied/featured...

Most of Europe uses a stagelist that bans RC but keeps Brinstar. It was used at BBI as well as every big european tournament ever since and it was very well received. There are some variations sometimes. The germans have PS2 in the counterpicks and the dutch banned both RC and Brinstar. And having heard opinions from many dutch players, they thought it was great.

Seriously, try it out. 6 months or something. At least you'll have REAL PROOF of whether a more conservative stagelist helps or not.

Tell me, if I was to attempt to host an international with PTAD, Norfair, and Green Greens legal, FD banned, and where there was a rule forcing MK to take a stock loss every time he grabbed the ledge, would you commend me for "trying something new"? What about one where the only legal stages were FD, SV, and BF? What about one where the only legal stages were Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, and Yoshi's Island: Melee?

All of these are radical ideas. All of these are trying something totally new and big and awesome. And none of them make any sense at all. And similarly, banning one or both of two perfectly reasonable, completely legitimate stages (to the people in the USA) makes no sense at all. It'd be like trying out Warioware as a legal stage: a really ****ing bad idea.

I'll take your advice after you reciprocate and try PTAD, Green Greens, Norfair, and Jungle Japes as legal stages for a few months, to get REAL PROOF of whether or not it helps, because in theory it does. (If I were a TO, anyways)

They do. MK is absolutely broken on Brinstar, it's ridiculous. Last tourney I almost lost to a Yoshi (had a bad day lol), I CPd Brinstar and 2 stocked him without issues. I never counter pick to imbalanced stages, for I lack experience on these stages. However, even without experience on Brinstar I easily destroyed my opponent. On Delfino or Frigate this wouldn't have happened.

K, how well does that Yoshi usually do on Brinstar against other players? How often does he get to play on Brinstar?

This is a common fallacy. It's like pointing to Ook vs MikeHaze on Green Greens as proof that DK is broken there; no, he isn't; one of the players in question just really, really sucked at the stage. Correlation ≠ Causation.


Oh yeah, and regarding turbo buttons: even ignoring the issue of macro buttons, I would not feel comfortable about my opponent being able to press a button and grab break almost instantly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Anyone who is anti-MK ban at this point is either:
a) A Meta Knight main who doesn't want to lose their character (majority of people)
b) Has an objectively flawed philosophy (BPC)
c) Just doesn't think he is that bad (some people)

Only C is legit, due to being opinion-based, imo.

 

[Yikarur]

even I drift slowly towards the ban wagon :/even though I was always against it.
but it gets more obvious with the time.
Statements like "RC and Brinstar will never be banned" are screaming for an MK ban :x

@lol how fail BPCs Post is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

BPC you're a moron for comparing the tournament you described to banning Brinstar. It's not even funny anymore, just stop.

I mean, look, I'll give you that APEX doesn't deserve special treatment, and I'll even give you that Brinstar might not be a broken stage (even though I have never really attempted to make that call one way or the other) but the way you use blatant hyperbole to condemn things you don't agree with is why you don't get taken seriously a lot of the time.

 

[Life]

That seems a bit sweeping, Grim. How about people like me that honestly don't care whether MK is legal? What about the people that think surgical limits are better than a character ban? How many MK mains are pro-ban?

 

[King Funk]

Anyone who is anti-MK ban at this point is either:
a) A Meta Knight main who doesn't want to lose their character (majority of people)

Majority of people? What the **** are you talking about? Sounds like some of those dumb comments by Melee scrubs on YouTube.

And BPC...

Seriously you don't need to take my words and interpret them in a completely ridiculous way. You can't tell me what I'm suggesting is THAT extreme.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Inferiority:

1. People that don't care whether or not MK is legal aren't anti-ban. What?
2. People who think surgical limits are better have an objectively flawed philosophy.

So uh...

 

[-Jumpman-]

I have no problem.



Hmm... Okay, so he's trying something huge and new and you're giving him credit for going against the grain on the issue. All right. Lemme get back to that in a second.



Except that the rules made it very clear: to get stickied/featured, you have to use the unity ruleset. Alex had the choice to comply or... not get stickied. Seeing as there is literally no other material pressure that the ruleset enforces, I'd consider that a thoroughly reasonable demand. We're not taking special pleading, we're not making exceptions, and if APEX 2012 needs a sticky then god help the smash scene-it is the single largest, most hyped tournament in the history of Smash, and if we have such low attention spans that we need it stickied/featured...



Tell me, if I was to attempt to host an international with PTAD, Norfair, and Green Greens legal, FD banned, and where there was a rule forcing MK to take a stock loss every time he grabbed the ledge, would you commend me for "trying something new"? What about one where the only legal stages were FD, SV, and BF? What about one where the only legal stages were Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, and Yoshi's Island: Melee?

All of these are radical ideas. All of these are trying something totally new and big and awesome. And none of them make any sense at all. And similarly, banning one or both of two perfectly reasonable, completely legitimate stages (to the people in the USA) makes no sense at all. It'd be like trying out Warioware as a legal stage: a really ****ing bad idea.

I'll take your advice after you reciprocate and try PTAD, Green Greens, Norfair, and Jungle Japes as legal stages for a few months, to get REAL PROOF of whether or not it helps, because in theory it does. (If I were a TO, anyways)



K, how well does that Yoshi usually do on Brinstar against other players? How often does he get to play on Brinstar?

This is a common fallacy. It's like pointing to Ook vs MikeHaze on Green Greens as proof that DK is broken there; no, he isn't; one of the players in question just really, really sucked at the stage. Correlation ≠ Causation.


Oh yeah, and regarding turbo buttons: even ignoring the issue of macro buttons, I would not feel comfortable about my opponent being able to press a button and grab break almost instantly.

It's an anecdote, not an argument you dlck

Edit: what makes Brinstar and RC suitable stages?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Personally I think RC and Brinstar are as much or more about fighting the stage than they are about fighting your opponent. I think that they're bad stages, regardless of the legality of MK.

That's my feeling on stage legality. I think "randomness" being a deciding factor in stage legality is really stupid, considering how little most reasonable random elements have on actual gameplay. Most discussions about randomness describe a lot of events that happen pretty rarely in actual tournaments, whereas Brinstar and RC kill players or aid in kills all the time without being random. It's like, yeah, learning the stage can mitigate that, but in practice it's much more pervasive.

So, if picking stages for legality was up to me, I would be asking "how pervasive are the stage's extra elements and obstacles," not "can I predict the stage's extra elements and obsticles?"

Keep in mind I'm not necessarily stage conservative, as there are many banned stages I would have legalized ages ago.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Inferiority:

1. People that don't care whether or not MK is legal aren't anti-ban. What?

Honest mistake, sorry. I forget that some people don't have opinions either way when I'm in the Competitive boards.

2. People who think surgical limits are better have an objectively flawed philosophy.

So uh...

Do you not consider double standards to be objectively flawed?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Meta Knight breaks like three or four (depending on your perspective) game mechanics that save for him, are pretty balanced. I'm not sure how placing limits on the mechanics instead of simply banning him isn't objectively flawed or in what way there is a double standard?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That seems a bit sweeping, Grim. How about people like me that honestly don't care whether MK is legal?

Yeah, missed that, explained in my last post.

What about the people that think surgical limits are better than a character ban?

That view point is objectively flawed, as I have proved countless times in the past.

I wouldn't be blatantly saying it if I didn't truly believe I was right.

How many MK mains are pro-ban?

Myself and probably many others, if you re-read my post, you'll notice that I didn't say all MK mains are anti-ban.

Majority of people? What the **** are you talking about? Sounds like some of those dumb comments by Melee scrubs on YouTube.

It was an exaggeration, that post was only half serious.

I'm not sure how placing limits on the mechanics instead of simply banning him isn't objectively flawed or in what way there is a double standard?

...Are we even disagreeing here?

I said before that agreeing with surgical limits is objectively flawed, which you disagreed with... and now you're agreeing with me? o_O

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Grim I never disagreed with you. I disagreed with Inferiority. You mis-read me.

 

[King Funk]

That view point is objectively flawed, as I have proved countless times in the past.

I wouldn't be blatantly saying it if I didn't truly believe I was right.

But what have you proven? No Brinstar/RC in the USA has NEVER BEEN TESTED.

At least not for an extended period of time.

**** theoryboards.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anyone who is anti-MK ban at this point is either:
a) A Meta Knight main who doesn't want to lose their character (majority of people)
b) Has an objectively flawed philosophy (BPC)
c) Just doesn't think he is that bad (some people)

Only C is legit, due to being opinion-based, imo.

I've abandoned my philosophy since, you ****. I belong entirely in camps A and C.

BPC you're a moron for comparing the tournament you described to banning Brinstar. It's not even funny anymore, just stop.

I mean, look, I'll give you that APEX doesn't deserve special treatment, and I'll even give you that Brinstar might not be a broken stage (even though I have never really attempted to make that call one way or the other) but the way you use blatant hyperbole to condemn things you don't agree with is why you don't get taken seriously a lot of the time.

It's not about the contents. It's about the principle. We don't make decisions that we know are bad "just to test it out".

Majority of people? What the **** are you talking about? Sounds like some of those dumb comments by Melee scrubs on YouTube.

And BPC...

Seriously you don't need to take my words and interpret them in a completely ridiculous way. You can't tell me what I'm suggesting is THAT extreme.

Jeez, I dunno, stripping a well-known, non-offensive stage that has been legal for over three years with no issue from the stagelist sounds pretty extreme. But what the hell, let's try a different example.

Would you commend someone who went against the grain and hosted a tournament with 9 starter stages and Green Greens and Norfair legal for "trying something new"? Tournaments with multi-thousand-dollar payouts, where the winner of one of them would walk away with over $10,000? Tournaments made possible by someone who loves the community and has done a lot to strengthen it? Would you support those on the principle that "hey, they're honestly trying something new"? And then would you take the results from said tournaments (say, that nobody did anything broken or unreasonable on two incredibly questionable stages, nor were there any notable complaints about said stages) and use them to further the creation of other rulesets?

Honestly, maybe it's time for a tangent. I don't see anywhere near enough people commending AlphaZealot. This guy was the main contact to ****ing MLG. MLG! He's also a major TO and a top player. But when it comes down to hand out the free meatrides, I hear people commending almost everyone else first; he usually gets a big fat "hey, you're taking our freedoms with this stupid BRC idea, hey, you're stupid, blah blah blah". At least as far as I can see. WTF is up with that?

But yeah, the above example. Would you commend them on the principle of trying something new? Because... this actually happened. For months, the largest and most valuable nationals in the country all ran a ruleset which had two stages that were almost universally banned beforehand and 9–9!–starters. We ignored the results from it, and kept on claiming that Norfair and Green Greens were horrible stages, and that 9 starters was an immense buff for MK and co.

And you know what? I have a prediction to make. I predict, based on previous knowledge, that if, by some miracle, you managed to convince the BRC to adopt a 6-month ban on Brinstar, the following two things would happen:
1. MK would continue to dominate tournaments all around the country
2. You would promptly ignore that fact and keep clamoring that it was a good idea in the first place and that it weakens MK, and possibly try to get RC banned by the same token

But you know what? It seems everyone got the reasoning of my post wrong. My critique of your post was mostly based on how you tried to frame it: that banning Brinstar is so great because it's trying something new, and that we're all morons and anti-progressive for refusing to do so. That's not intellectually honest at all. All you should say is "I think Brinstar should be banned" because that is the entire extent of your argument.

It's an anecdote, not an argument you dlck

Edit: what makes Brinstar and RC suitable stages?

Stages are innocent until proven guilty. What makes FD a suitable stage?

But what have you proven? No Brinstar/RC in the USA has NEVER BEEN TESTED.

At least not for an extended period of time.

**** theoryboards.

Funny that you mention that... Guess what has been tested: Norfair and Green Greens. I'd be all over replacing Brinstar with Norfair and Green Greens. I don't think you are for some reason, though...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thank god you gave up on that, BPC.

Grim I never disagreed with you. I disagreed with Inferiority. You mis-read me.

Soooooorry

But what have you proven? No Brinstar/RC in the USA has NEVER BEEN TESTED.

At least not for an extended period of time.

**** theoryboards.

I wasn't even talking about Brinstar/RC.

**** inattentive king funks

 

[King Funk]

I wasn't even talking about Brinstar/RC.

**** inattentive king funks

Oh? I thought banning Brinstar/RC was a surgical change.

Wait? What am I doing? I'm mocking someone's statements and make them sound like they are completely contradictory. I'm morphing into a theorynoob! Damn it...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I still wasn't talking about Brinstar and RC. Unlike a LGL, a Brinstar ban isn't necessarily specifically to keep MK legal.

Theorynoob is a silly term, considering I'm a good player and active player in my scene.

 

[King Funk]

I never said banning one or both stages would not make MK dominant anymore lol. I just said I'd bet it'd reduce it, even if it's just a little.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, it probably would.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yo....BPC's last post was amazing. I love that guy when he isn't mad <3

So yeah, Alex Strife knew about the conditions to get stickied. Before he made his ruleset he was contacting top players for opinions and was in the BRC as he is a really big TO. He decided to quit the BRC and make his ruleset with Brinstar/PS2 banned and all the other differences. Apex 2011 attendance won't suffer a bit. It will still be a ****ing huge international tournament, and we will all enjoy ourselves there. He isn't mad he won't be getting a sticky (Well...maybe a little bit) but he knew it from the start.

Anyway, to address the people saying "Just test it"...why does the BRC have to test it when we are the ones with no qualms with the stage? You can go and test it if you want...oh wait, John#s already did that and THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE IN RESULTS! Wouldn't it be a little bit of a difference?

Seriously guys, MK is the best character with the best adaptability in the game. In a game like Smash, where different stages come into play, the best can normally play on the most varied stages while suffering less than other characters/gaining more than other characters. It happens...Pikachu is the best in 64 because his playstyle is stage independent. He can do whatever he wants on any stage. Fox in Melee doesn't give a **** about stages. He arguably has one bad stage, Brinstar, but he can just ban it. Every other stage for him is amazing. Now, in Brawl, we have MK, who is good on pretty much every level, and excels on a few CPs (Frigate, Brinstar, RC). Are we really going to get angry at a stage because a character is good on them? Based on results from John's tournament (Or vinnie's or whoever hosted it) there isn't a difference. So...as BPC said, people are just going to ignore those results and claim that it is still broken.

Thank you for giving us that data John#s, I understand now why.