The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

Xyro hasn't debated here and you don't know what his arguments in the URC subforum look like.

Omni, I would suggest (in the least offensive way possible) that you tone down the character testimony a bit, because it isn't helping your side and it doesn't matter. If Xyro's arguments are reasonable or if they aren't, MK will be banned because the majority wants him banned and there isn't a good enough reason to veto the vote or not banned because there is reason to believe the poll is suspect or that the minority should be protected from the majority.

 

[Xyro77]

Words speak louder than actions if you're in a debate.

im not debating. im telling people what i think/how it is. they can accept it or not. doesnt matter to me.

 

[Steam]

I am in support of this totalitarian republic as it is likely to make changes that have positive outcomes on my lifestyle.

****

 

[Omni]

Xyro hasn't debated here and you don't know what his arguments in the URC subforum look like.

Omni, I would suggest (in the least offensive way possible) that you tone down the character testimony a bit, because it isn't helping your side and it doesn't matter. If Xyro's arguments are reasonable or if they aren't, MK will be banned because the majority wants him banned and there isn't a good enough reason to veto the vote or not banned because there is reason to believe the poll is suspect or that the minority should be protected from the majority.

I just dislike how he represents the URC whom I actually respect. It is very obnoxious.

I also don't have a side anymore. I've said this before, but I honestly don't care what happens to MK. If he's banned I'll just use other characters. If not, then I'll use MK.

Given the responses from the URC members lately, there's no doubt in my mind that he's already been chosen to be banned.

 

[Zankoku]

For all we know, Ally made a prophetic statement and Meta Knight really will be banned coinciding with the Mayan end of the world.

 

[B.A.M.]

Or we could be realistic and assume URC probably decided on banning the bat, and are trying to figure out how to break it to the community after Anti-ban put up some arguments that at least one of them ( thank you Delux) is trying to listen to.

@ SuperModel From Paris: Read through what Anti-ban has said, we have deconstructed John #'s data, we have shown the idiocy of voluntary polls, we have shown Tuen's data as number that point out MK HASNT = better placing for the most part, we have showcase that overcentralization of specific top tiers exist in other fighters. Seriously you just make pro ban look terrible; you never say anything of merit.

Go jack off somewhere else; you dont need to post to do it.


@BPC: thank goodness someone see the absurdity of these post.

Also I think its funny we all talk about Diddy Falco ICs etc getting buffs on neutrals. Seeing as they are neutrals and are the most played wouldnt it be that they are getting NERFED on CPs? I really dont understand why everyone is so adamant that we have to have all these stages. what character does terribly without these air stages? I just think its funny we purposely handicap all top tier except the one air character that happens to be the best one. I personally think air stages are overcentralize certain tactics and detract from game depth. Neutrals allow for more unique events and strategies because they arent being impeded by a stage. Again I will say this; for the most part (alot of it due to the nature of brawl in the first place) the stage list is inversely proportional for game depth. This game isnt about tons of combos, when you have certain stages its better to look for the best part to be and camp, you maintain in prime real estate and you continue to do damage. Why bother trying to do all these follow ups when you are putting yourself at risk for counter attack? its just so much better on stages like RC or Brinstar to stay in the best position and just hit them away. That doesnt not create as much different scenarios as neutrals can because virtually every character is able to utilize their skill set properly. Thats my honest opinion. I dont think those stages should be banned straight up due to MK, I think they detract from what we are trying to test.

 

[Ripple]

Or put out an aerial at the top because aerial SL has terrible priority..... Wait what?


EDIT: LOL, you really would rather play D3 than MK? I got to hear the reasoning on this. Nados good but you got reverse utilt and ftilt. Dtilt and pivot grab are awesome on approach. Getting out of nado and Uairing is awesome. Especially with the other stuff Will was talking to me about the other day, I really am hard pressed to understand why you would think so.

what no MK main ever realizes is that tornado shuts us down HARD. DK can break tornado ONCE with up-tilt. then it must be completely fresh to break it again. F-tilt? can only break it TWICE AND must be angled up. then it must be completely fresh again. aside from SA punch, nothing else DK has breaks tornado. NOTHING. up-b "can" break it but it must be level 5 or higher stale otherwise it hits too often. and you must actually go into them with the SA part. SA ends on 16 I believe and then actually has a hit box on 19 or 20. which means that you have get hit by tornado on frame 16 ( the last frame of SA( to beat tornado. any other frame loses.

most MK's are like " I got hit BY DK another mistake like that and I could die" when in reality he can break tornado THREE times and that's it. if anyone actually knew this stuff, MK should be tornadoing us EVEN MORE after we break their other ones. DK also has a lousy shield.

d-tilt never breaks tornado regardless and has less range than his f-tilt. and Pivot grab doesn't cover DK's head. it loses unless they do grounded nado.

any intelligent MK should be hitting B the whole time the only time DK can up- air out of tornado is if they stop pressing the button. otherwise, inescapable.

congrats, I just told all MK players how to completely shut down DK with 1 move. go have fun destroying them.

as opposed to D3 who wrecks with Grab, DK is a very, very, aerial mobile character. with platforms, DK can avoid the grab easy, since its grounded only as opposed to tornado which covers both, if he ever get's caught on the edge. ledge hop>up-b land laglessly. plus we can actually abuse stuff on D3 as opposed to MK.


edit: SL doesn't have terrible priority AT ALL. it's INSANELY DISJOINTED

He probably thought about the MU without the infinite... otherwise it wouldn't make sense....

I don't care for the infinte. I'd still rather play against a D3 than MK if it were legal.

 

[Omni]

so u fear tornado more than u fear an infinite grab?

 

[Ripple]

so u fear tornado more than u fear an infinite grab?

yes. like I said tornado covers air and ground. grab covers ground only and is actually possible to avoid

I forgot to mention that DK's dair doesn't break tornado EVER. you have to use a falling up-air which works like 1% of the time. if you get popped up. you get tornado'd again. then you have to go to the ledge to get out of tornado, you are now off stage against MK. congrats.

 

[B.A.M.]

Im sorry. So you dont think tactics like FHs away then ADing through as Nado ends are viable? Im not saying dtilt and pivot grab are for nado; im saying they are for halting the approach. You actually fear Nado more than an absurdly easy infinite by one of the largest grab ranges in the game? You talk about mobility, yet for Nado it isnt an option? I really dont understand this. I dont get how nado cant be avoided. Especially as an approach. I do understand DK is weak from below, thats for sure.

Yes Ripple SL has terrible priority on the top. you throw an aerial at the top and it will get beat everytime

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I really dont understand this.

This seems to be a pretty common theme with you, doesn't it?

 

[WindMajor]

ninja'd

ignore this

 

[Ripple]

Im sorry. So you dont think tactics like FHs away then ADing through as Nado ends are viable? Im not saying dtilt and pivot grab are for nado; im saying they are for halting the approach. You actually fear Nado more than an absurdly easy infinite by one of the largest grab ranges in the game? You talk about mobility, yet for Nado it isnt an option? I really dont understand this. I dont get how nado cant be avoided. Especially as an approach. I do understand DK is weak from below, thats for sure.

Yes Ripple SL has terrible priority on the top. you throw an aerial at the top and it will get beat everytime

FH? full hop?

DK can't AD through tornado. he's too big has has a ****ty AD. he will always get hit. you can avoid some damage but you'll always get hit.

tornado should be MK's only approach, it shuts us down.

I talk about mobility when a grab is a GROUND only move. tornado IS NOT. DK is mobile but that doesn't matter in the case of a move that hits in the ground AND in the air AND is has bigger hit boxes than a grab.

you don't understand how nado can't be avoided? play DK and then play agaiost a tornado happy MK that knows everything I just posted.

 

[Omni]

yes. like I said tornado covers air and ground. grab covers ground only and is actually possible to avoid.

grab actually covers air as well.

one grab = one stock
one tornado = well... one tornado with at the worst bad positioning

i use to main DK and DDD. and i played Meep's IC's all the time. i feel like you're definitely underestimating the grab potential. dk's only options against DDD are stages that allow him to run. on SV, retreating the platform = getting WOP'd by DDD's b-air. which only leaves planking as the only viable option against DDD

 

[Ripple]

grab actually covers air as well.

one grab = one stock
one tornado = well... one tornado with at the worst bad positioning

i use to main DK and DDD. and i played Meep's IC's all the time. i feel like you're definitely underestimating the grab potential. dk's only options against DDD are stages that allow him to run. on SV, retreating the platform = getting WOP'd by DDD's b-air. which only leaves planking as the only viable option against DDD

we have a more disjointed bair than DDD. we can easily beat him in the air

 

[Omni]

no. here's my point.

on SV or BF u dont want to approach DDD with b-airs. DDD can shieldgrab DK's b-air all day; instant or delayed.

most DK's try to clear the ground area against DDD aka getting on platforms or other fields. on SV or BF the only way to hit DDD from the platform is to ledge-drop b-air.

basically, you have to play around DDD's grab range in order to fight him. that includes mix-up's like disjoined b-air into double jump whatever or overb or up+b.

but u cant really argue that DDD's one grab potential on DDD is less dangerous than MK's tornado. that, imo, is incomparable

 

[Doc King]

I can kind of see what Ripples means, DK has some good tools to use on D3 like being air borne a lot. DK can even space well against D3. Those things make the matchup imo better than Bowser and Ganon (Which imo they're +4 for D3 and imo D3 vs. DK is a +4 for D3).

Although, D3 has that bair which is very good on DK if he's in the air.

Kind of hard to tell which one is harder for DK. Both are very bad for DK and Falco is probably another one too.

 

[B.A.M.]

Good for you Supermodel From Paris. you got me. You're not even contributing. You should get an infraction.

Anyways Ripple: Is Tyrant not using Nado effectively here? Im just curious. I know its one match so u let me know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3FXZGy0jE8



[00:34] bamreloaded: would u rather face a D3 or a MK
[09:35] William Walsh: With this ruleset?
[09:35] William Walsh: MK
[09:35] bamreloaded: thank you
[09:35] bamreloaded: iono why ripple is saying even with the infinite
[09:35] bamreloaded: he would rather D3
[09:35] William Walsh: infinite cg's ain't nothing to mess with
[09:36] bamreloaded: seriously iono dont get how someone could make that claim
[09:36] bamreloaded: he says you can literally press B all day and win
[09:36] William Walsh: People that hardy use d3 an only go for grabs have an amazing chance
[09:36] William Walsh: No. Lol


Maybe you should go talk that over with the top DK.

 

[Ripple]

falco isn't bad at all. it's annoying but not bad.

on SV or BF u dont want to approach DDD with b-airs. DDD can shieldgrab DK's b-air all day; instant or delayed.

wrong

most DK's try to clear the ground area against DDD aka getting on platforms or other fields. on SV or BF the only way to hit DDD from the platform is to ledge-drop b-air.

wrong

 

[Ripple]

like hell I said the match up was even

 

[Omni]

i concede then, ripple. clearly i am wrong because you have said so

 

[Ripple]

i concede then, ripple. clearly i am wrong because you have said so

maybe because 3.5 years of maining DK has told me that I CAN space a bair and not get grabbed and bair is NOT the only option I have off a platform.

 

[Tesh]

I see where ripple is coming from, but its really stage dependant. If you really have the patience to camp it out for DDD, his mobility can make it tough to land grabs.

I could definitely see MK being worse on bad DDD/good mk stages. Not to mention that even though one landed tornado will probably ending up netting 100+ damage and a lifetime of edgeguarding, it gives you more chances to hard read or have your opponent get greedy. Even I get bored after my 10th consecutive nado.

 

[B.A.M.]

Again Ripple I just dont understand how you and Will can have such a discrepancy. Im watching how Will deals with nado, how he talks about footstooling, heck even running away and comes back ( which gets thats shield to recharge). Again I think these air stages contribute to that. Their dumb. Heck Gdubs would be ridiculous on those Air stages too. But D3 has a freakin infinite. How can u say that? Nana doesnt get hit and you are okay. at anytime he grabs, thats a stock.

Why do we have those stages; as if Brawl doesnt deal with a ton of air game already, even on these "ground" stages.



@Tesh: Please try that on Will.


EDIT: I have played DK vs a nado happy MK. And i got destroyed. Then i sought the advice of Will. And I won. True story lol.

 

[Vinnie]

>namesearched into here
>mekos has only ever beaten 1 good team in tourney without m2k
>pink fresh has beaten many good teams without the best player in the world on his team
>every time I compare Mekos to Pink Fresh, he gets salty, so I'm going to keep doing it
>

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

God. Damn.

Also, in my opinion, DDD vs DK is silly.

 

[Juushichi]

Unity Ruleset Discussion: Callouts, Matchup Discussion and not MK banned topics.

 

[B.A.M.]

God. Damn.

Also, in my opinion, DDD vs DK is silly.

Of course its silly. Theres seriously no way someone can truly legitimize MU as being easier than MK.

 

[Ripple]

Of course its silly. Theres seriously no way someone can truly legitimize MU as being easier than MK.

I already did. grabs can be avoided.

 

[Doc King]

I'm surprised no one brings up the DK vs. Lucas matchup as an auto win matchup for DK.

 

[Ripple]

I'm surprised no one brings up the DK vs. Lucas matchup as an auto win matchup for DK.

luacs can avoid DK's grab pretty well actually. since DK's grab isn't disjointed at all

ness has a harder time avoiding it but the infinte is harder to do on him

 

[DMG]

>namesearched into here
>mekos has only ever beaten 1 good team in tourney without m2k
>pink fresh has beaten many good teams without the best player in the world on his team
>every time I compare Mekos to Pink Fresh, he gets salty, so I'm going to keep doing it
>

What's a Lucas?

 

[B.A.M.]

I already did. grabs can be avoided.

And Im saying you need to talk that over with the top DK before coming that conclusion. I also was asking for your input in that match I just posted. Will disagrees with you. Very much so. So either you are fighting some legendary pokemon esque MKs noone knows about or maybe just maybe you are just missing something in your game. Im not trying to completely discount you, Will and you would know more about DK than me ( although I do play him as well).

There just should not be a discrepancy like that if it were so. Especially from the DK performing the best currently, while you have apparently dropped the beast for Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

Ripple hasn't completely dropped DK.

Wrecked me with it at SiiS6, actually. Then again, I also have a matchup block against DK. :/

 

[Tesh]

@ B.A.M. i'm mostly talking about baiting airdodges with uair and nadoing landings and whatnot. Never being directly below him for footstool or nairing thru nado.

Nado still ***** DK, but if you asked me who would wreck Will harder out of Coney and M2K, I'd have to guess Coney. You can't avoid grabs with just spacing. You will make a mistake, you will get read and then you will lose your stock off of that one read or mistake with no chance of getting out (DK doesnt require pummels right?).

 

[B.A.M.]

Im sure he still dabbles with him. He did main the character for 3.5 years. What Im saying is I dont understand how he can claim D3 is easier than MK. WITH THE INFINITE. And when I talked to Will, the currently top DK, he states the complete opposite. That is a red flag to me.

@Tesh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3FXZGy0jE8

Nado is a solid move vs DK. And if you get into the air with uairs, DK is drifting away and you arent catching him with you aerial mobility. in any case just watch the match Tesh.

 

[Ripple]

And Im saying you need to talk that over with the top DK before coming that conclusion. I also was asking for your input in that match I just posted. Will disagrees with you. Very much so. So either you are fighting some legendary pokemon esque MKs noone knows about or maybe just maybe you are just missing something in your game. Im not trying to completely discount you, Will and you would know more about DK than me ( although I do play him as well).

There just should not be a discrepancy like that if it were so. Especially from the DK performing the best currently, while you have apparently dropped the beast for Sheik.

WIll can't beat ICs because he can't avoid grabs.

I have a style that beats ICS and D3. no other DK understands how I do it but imo it's easy to avoid grabs.

ask delux about broken kong

 

[B.A.M.]

Okay.......did you ever think that maybe Will has a style to beat MK? You do realize that goes both ways right?

 

[Vinnie]

I already did. grabs can be avoided.

From someone who has played this matchup with will (in friendlies), with both the infinite on AND off, for a couple of years, I can confidently say that there's not much hope for DK if the infinite is on. When it's off, Will makes it seem like it's even or DK's favor.

Your argument was "grabs can be avoided". Umm, ok? Guess what? Dedede has moves that COMBO into grabs (like nair at low %), and also tech chasing grabs. Not to mention one of your main spacing tools (bair) is pivotgrabbable. IMO, this match-up is VERY do-able with the infinite off, but it shouldn't be attempted with the infinite on, lol.

There are some tricks that not many players do to get grabs in certain spots. Like, a month ago, I was playing Will on BF, and he was on the left platform, and I short hop baired with D3, it pushed him off and I got a grab. The same can be done with fair. I can also frame-trap him if I fullhop bair him and he air dodges. The possibilities are endless.

Also, having a lot of experience vs DK, I can confidently say that there are some moves of his that are shield-grabbable that not many people know, like the first hit of his aerial up b, side b... not to mention, ledge attack is NOT AN OPTION in this MU, and that is one of his best moves imo.

 

[Ripple]

Okay.......did you ever think that maybe Will has a style to beat MK? You do realize that goes both ways right?

and so do I.

will doesn't have the grab avoidance style down so of course he should think MK is easier