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The Tunes Official Crew Thread - Legit the best crew in the world.

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
it's pretty clear that everyone is just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, so lighten up :)
I swear to God that is Spammer 100%. I was so pissed like 3 months back or so when Spam and Inui would argue in like every thread known to mankind/SWF. Teh_Spamerer is the KING of arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm just feeding into it. But I'll respond to RaptorHawk and Jam Stunna, since they actually have things to say, and good points at that.

JFox chimed in with an "It's too early to tell," without any support for that claim, and idk if I explained myself well enough for him to think that it's an okay response or not, he hasn't said anything back.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Autocancelling can occur way before the move actually completes though, as well as at the startup of the move. There are windows before and after the attack hits.

An extreme example is Ness' d-air:

D-Air

Total: 59
Hit: 20-28
Auto cancel: <19 29> (19 and earlier; 29 and later)

It can AC a whole 30 frames before it really ends.
 

Jam Stunna

Writer of Fortune
BRoomer
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
6,450
Location
Hartford, CT
3DS FC
0447-6552-1484
A lot of things about Brawl are readily apparent. We've had this conversation a lot of times, and the point that I always try to get to is that competitive in this conversation means that "Those who should win will win."

Brawl has a LOT of game engine mechanics that seem to have no purpose other than ensuring that better players will randomly do worse than they should. I always mention the random tripping first, since that's just abominable.

Also, the auto-sweetspotting makes things a lot easier for strays to just pick up. Melee punishes you hard for not knowing sweetspots, forcing you to become better to play at a competitive level. The lack of stun that most moves deliver (combined with absurd landing lags) leaves the players experiencing lots of hit trades, especially immediately after taking a stock. This seems designed to keep matches even and not rewarding first hits nearly as much as they were rewarded in its predecessor. This also contributes to a lack of combos, an element that was revered as the most awesome part of Melee, separating the good from the truly too good.

It doesn't matter how much time is put into the game, these facts will remain unchanged simply because they are facts. Yes, you can get around some of them, but the answer is usually just "camp" or "predict," neither of which are all that great for a truly competitive game.

Competitive means "those who should win will win." And Melee is very apparently a much more competitive game than Brawl ever will be.
You're right, the game engine is different, and things have been changed/removed. And you have played the game, which makes your opinion more valid than mine since I have not. You could be right, and Brawl is totally unfit for tournament play. All I'm saying is that it is way too early to make a definitive judgment, up or down. Each side either says, "Brawl is the greatest thing ever" or "Brawl is the worst thing ever". How can the small group of people who have played the game make either determination before the rest of us get a chance?

Give it some time, that's all I ask. If it sucks in six months, then you were right, and I will admit so.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
I've heard the general "definition" of competitive passed around far too often here being those who should win will win. The major backup point to this and the only one I've heard so far has been because Scar was going even with M2k after a little practice. I decided to ask M2k about this. His answer? Scar is definitely not as good as he is nor is he able to really beat him. M2k was messing around and clearly not playing to his full extent, as he even said himself. I think it's good he didn't go all out on you so you didn't get 3 stocked every match and had a chance to learn (or less than 3 stock if M2k did suicidal combos on you which he enjoys doing)

It's been said that there are plenty of factors in the game to hinder higher players performance, but guess what, this also effects lower players performance as well. All players have the same options of characters and stages. Pros aren't the only ppl that trip, all characters do.

Bottom line what I'm trying to say from these two paragraphs is, in Brawl, those who SHOULD win, WILL win. Because of Scar's definition, this would mean that Brawl is indeed competitive. Perhaps it's not the same competitive as Melee which was all about tech skill for the most part when Brawl is more a mind games, knowing what to do when competitive nature. Any game can seriously have a competitive nature when you think about it. Like uh.... Mario 64. Competitive as in speed runs. Every game has ways to become competitive, and saying Brawl is not competitive at all is completely wrong.

I just really hate for Brawl is splitting the community. After looking at it, with the exception of a few people, it generally seems to be the people who played mid or lower tier characters in Melee want to switch to Brawl. The competitive scene in Melee is overrun by high and top tiers, and it's hard for others to keep up after a certain point. To truly continue in Melee we have no real choice but to switch characters, but its obvious far too late for that now, especially when we could instead switch to the next smash game since we would be starting over anyway.

As for myself, I partially fall into this category. I feel like I'm approaching a wall with Samus. I know there's more I can learn or do, but the more I go on at my pace, as others who play better characters continue on at the same pace end up with a higher reward in the end. I don't want to hear that it's my fault for choosing a terrible character as I've heard it plenty times. I played who I wanted to play and that's that. It's melee's fault for being so terrible inbalanced, and don't tell me it isn't.

The other reason for why I like Brawl so much, is that unlike all of you, I have been consistantly playing Melee since it came out 6-7 years ago, and many of you started no where near that long ago. Sure I didn't go competitive learning adv techs until Oct of 06, but I played a competitive style since the game came out, as in neutral(ish) stages and no items. Me and my friends smash till dawned all the time and always held smash fest type things. I used to play everyday a while ago like I do now. And after this many years, it's hard not to get bored of it. It's a shame, I probably could have gotten a lot better if I had known about adv techs and the tourney scene a while ago.

I'm not angry at those who aren't ready to move on, and it's completely understandable. However what I don't like is when people say this game isn't competitive at all, has no future, and who will barely give it a chance. And if you're on the side saying Brawl isn't deep enough and you don't like playing it, you clearly haven't given it enough chance especially as the game isn't out here yet. There's still more to learn, it's just that you all want to sit back and play melee while we invent the game.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
AHHH GIANT DOUBLE POST


I've heard the general "definition" of competitive passed around far too often here being those who should win will win. The major backup point to this and the only one I've heard so far has been because Scar was going even with M2k after a little practice. I decided to ask M2k about this. His answer? Scar is definitely not as good as he is nor is he able to really beat him. M2k was messing around and clearly not playing to his full extent, as he even said himself. I think it's good he didn't go all out on you so you didn't get 3 stocked every match and had a chance to learn (or less than 3 stock if M2k did suicidal combos on you which he enjoys doing)

It's been said that there are plenty of factors in the game to hinder higher players performance, but guess what, this also effects lower players performance as well. All players have the same options of characters and stages. Pros aren't the only ppl that trip, all characters do.

Bottom line what I'm trying to say from these two paragraphs is, in Brawl, those who SHOULD win, WILL win. Because of Scar's definition, this would mean that Brawl is indeed competitive. Perhaps it's not the same competitive as Melee which was all about tech skill for the most part when Brawl is more a mind games, knowing what to do when competitive nature. Any game can seriously have a competitive nature when you think about it. Like uh.... Mario 64. Competitive as in speed runs. Every game has ways to become competitive, and saying Brawl is not competitive at all is completely wrong.

I just really hate for Brawl is splitting the community. After looking at it, with the exception of a few people, it generally seems to be the people who played mid or lower tier characters in Melee want to switch to Brawl. The competitive scene in Melee is overrun by high and top tiers, and it's hard for others to keep up after a certain point. To truly continue in Melee we have no real choice but to switch characters, but its obvious far too late for that now, especially when we could instead switch to the next smash game since we would be starting over anyway.

As for myself, I partially fall into this category. I feel like I'm approaching a wall with Samus. I know there's more I can learn or do, but the more I go on at my pace, as others who play better characters continue on at the same pace end up with a higher reward in the end. I don't want to hear that it's my fault for choosing a terrible character as I've heard it plenty times. I played who I wanted to play and that's that. It's melee's fault for being so terrible inbalanced, and don't tell me it isn't.

The other reason for why I like Brawl so much, is that unlike all of you, I have been consistantly playing Melee since it came out 6-7 years ago, and many of you started no where near that long ago. Sure I didn't go competitive learning adv techs until Oct of 06, but I played a competitive style since the game came out, as in neutral(ish) stages and no items. Me and my friends smash till dawned all the time and always held smash fest type things. I used to play everyday a while ago like I do now. And after this many years, it's hard not to get bored of it. It's a shame, I probably could have gotten a lot better if I had known about adv techs and the tourney scene a while ago.

I'm not angry at those who aren't ready to move on, and it's completely understandable. However what I don't like is when people say this game isn't competitive at all, has no future, and who will barely give it a chance. And if you're on the side saying Brawl isn't deep enough and you don't like playing it, you clearly haven't given it enough chance especially as the game isn't out here yet. There's still more to learn, it's just that you all want to sit back and play melee while we invent the game.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
And you have played the game, which makes your opinion more valid than mine since I have not. You could be right, and Brawl is totally unfit for tournament play.
This is not what I am saying, and it's not your fault for not knowing that since you haven't been around for the whole 30 pages of arguments. After the next quote I will clarify.

I've heard the general "definition" of competitive passed around far too often here being those who should win will win. The major backup point to this and the only one I've heard so far has been because Scar was going even with M2k after a little practice. I decided to ask M2k about this. His answer? Scar is definitely not as good as he is nor is he able to really beat him.
All I read was the first paragraph before getting pissed at you. No, that isn't the major backup point, that was one minor point, and if that was my whole case then I'd be on par with Inui. If you had read/comprehended anything else I have written AND quoted myself on AND paraphrased AND rephrased AND repeated until I was blue in the face, you would know ALL of the reasons for why I think Brawl is LESS competitive than MELEE.

That's right, I'm not even saying Brawl is not a competitive game, I'm just saying that it's LESS competitive than Melee, and as far as my mantra goes, "Those who should win will win" LESS FREQUENTLY in Brawl than they would in Melee.

Further, yes all people trip, not only pros, and that is a fine point to bring up. By definition better players will win more than 50% of the time with an infinite amount of samples. But due to the randomness in Brawl, better players will win with a ratio CLOSER to 50% than Melee, which will be CLOSER to 100%.

I'm not angry at those who aren't ready to move on, and it's completely understandable. However what I don't like is when people say this game isn't competitive at all, has no future, and who will barely give it a chance.
I have never said this and never will say this. I am on the verge of hating people who maintain that this is my position. It is extraordinarily frustrating. So no to you, failure on huge double posts, and Jam Stunna, that's just not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying that Melee was the better game in terms of competitiveness.
 

Velocity

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
1,324
Location
Philadelphia,Pa
Before I make any reply to anything in this thread I want you to know I read a little more than half of almost everyones posts, except for chibos in this case in which I read a lot less then half. This is my reply: SHUT THE **** UP. To scar give up it's hopeless
 

SwiftBass

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
5,804
Location
Thunder Whales Picnic
Have you seen anyone waveshine dtilt ever?
of course ive seen it b4, but iirc you made a reference to it as reacting to someones DI and doing it which is preposterous. thats less than a half of a sec to react and have fox crouch then the dtilt. I doubt very much that anyone can react to smash DI and dtilt like that. It would @ most be a guess.

NEways.....y'all can continue arguing about stupid brawl ****.

edit: you should cut down on ur essays chibo. ppl argue on the internets forever like this because ppl write essays trying to touch many points, then all of them points get argued on and ppl lose track of whats going on.....ppl should try hitting one point @ a time.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
I have never said this and never will say this. I am on the verge of hating people who maintain that this is my position. It is extraordinarily frustrating. So no to you, failure on huge double posts, and Jam Stunna, that's just not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying that Melee was the better game in terms of competitiveness.
I didn't say you. Stop putting words in my mouth and assuming things.
 

Alukard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
6,446
Location
Bronx
how do i get to ur tournament cheezit ???? =) i will win doubles

EGGM TAKE ME TO UR BIWEEKLIES DAMMIT ... >.> me and dionis guarantee 1st in double sif u take us ^_^
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
JFox chimed in with an "It's too early to tell," without any support for that claim, and idk if I explained myself well enough for him to think that it's an okay response or not, he hasn't said anything back.
Disclaimer: This post is long. Don't bother with your tl;dr comments. Furthermore, it has absolutely no proof that brawl has any competitive components whatsoever. All it is arguing is that its simply too early to tell.

Here is why I feel its too early to predict brawl's competitive activity:

When smash went from 64 to melee, there were many things that transfered over that helped the competitive 64 player to have an edge over the non-competitive 64 player when they both started playing melee.

Z-cancelling was still in. (renamed as L cancelling, the L simply standing for lag.)

Dashdancing was still in.

Shieldgrabbing was still in.

Chaingrabbing was still in. (yes, CG was in 64 too)

And most importantly, the game was still majorly based around an aerial mindset. Playing aerially rather than simply roll smashing around made the biggest difference between the common and the advanced players.

So there are some techniques which gave the 64 veterans an automatic advantage right off the bat. Now when the game went from melee to brawl, everyone is still trying to play it as if it were still like the previous games.

But lets look at what brawl lacks:

Wavedashing. L-cancelling. Dashdancing (for our purposes), chaingrabbing (with the exception of DDD) AND most importantly it doesn't seem to center around an aerial style like the previous games had. Those plus the lack of wavedashing and the emphasis on grab game made a big difference. (think about how powerful the grab really is in melee)

What are we left with? Shieldgrabbing. Shieldgrabbing is the ONLY technique that transfered from melee to Brawl. This is why all people are doing is spamming the shieldgrab. Its the only technique we have left.

What does this mean? This means that brawl players must now reinvent the meta-game style. This takes time. So rather than looking at early melee matches, we actually must go back as far as early smash 64 matches and compare those early players to todays brawl players. Really they are the only players that were in the same position as brawl players are. They, like we must now, had to invent a style which could be used to beat the average player, putting themselves ahead of the game.


You are making the mistake thinking that because 64/melee meta-game hasn't transfered over to brawl that it CANNOT be competitive. But already people are coming up with meta-game that is only do-able in brawl. Its just that the meta-game is in such early stages that they are negligible.

But like any new meta-game, things seem worthless when they are first invented. Look at how long it took for people to accept wavedashing as a useful technique(look at ken or masashi).

You are looking at these techniques as negligible because they haven't changed the tournament world (which they never do at first), and than saying that there is no meta-game, and therefore brawl will not be competitive, when in fact there is meta-game, its just no where near developed.

This is why I am saying give it some time. I'm sure smash 64 wasn't competitive in 3 weeks.
 

Pakman

WWMD
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
6,861
Location
Phoenix Foundation
Disclaimer: This post is long. Don't bother with your tl;dr comments. Furthermore, it has absolutely no proof that brawl has any competitive components whatsoever. All it is arguing is that its simply too early to tell.

Here is why I feel its too early to predict brawl's competitive activity:

When smash went from 64 to melee, there were many things that transfered over that helped the competitive 64 player to have an edge over the non-competitive 64 player when they both started playing melee.

Z-cancelling was still in. (renamed as L cancelling, the L simply standing for lag.)

Dashdancing was still in.

Shieldgrabbing was still in.

And most importantly, the game was still majorly based around an aerial mindset. Playing aerially rather than simply roll smashing around made the biggest difference between the common and the advanced players.

So there are some techniques which gave the 64 veterans an automatic advantage right off the bat. Now when the game went from melee to brawl, everyone is still trying to play it as if it were still like the previous games.

But lets look at what brawl lacks:

Wavedashing. L-cancelling. Dashdancing (for our purposes) AND most importantly it doesn't seem to center around an aerial style like the previous games had.

What are we left with? Shieldgrabbing. Shieldgrabbing is the ONLY technique that transfered from melee to Brawl. This is why all people are doing is spamming the shieldgrab. Its the only technique we have left.

What does this mean? This means that brawl players must now reinvent the meta-game style. This takes time. So rather than looking at early melee matches, we actually must go back as far as early smash 64 matches and compare those early players to todays brawl players. Really they are the only players that were in the same position as brawl players are. They, like we must now, had to invent a style which could be used to beat the average player, putting themselves ahead of the game.


You are making the mistake thinking that because 64/melee meta-game hasn't transfered over to brawl that it CANNOT be competitive. But already people are coming up with meta-game that is only do-able in brawl. Its just that the meta-game is in such early stages that they are negligible.

But like any new meta-game, things seem worthless when they are first invented. Look at how long it took for people to accept wavedashing as a useful technique(look at ken or masashi).

You are looking at these techniques as negligible because they haven't changed the tournament world (which they never do at first), and than saying that there is no meta-game, and therefore brawl will not be competitive, when in fact there is meta-game, its just no where near developed.

This is why I am saying give it some time. I'm sure smash 64 wasn't competitive in 3 weeks.
This is by far the most enlightening post, I have read regarding the non-scar side of this discussion. You pro brawlers could learn a thing or two from this post.
 

Alukard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
6,446
Location
Bronx
i just hope smash makes it back to mlg ^_^ me vanz jman tec0 and hax weren't around as respected players when melee was in ... we just want the big tourney hype like halo has ^_^
 

DCScribZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
178
Location
Bayonne, NJ
Tec, Vanz, wanna play some Smash tomorrow? I bet you guys feel short on footage. Dr.Scribz is here to alleviate.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
And most importantly, the game was still majorly based around an aerial mindset. Playing aerially rather than simply roll smashing around made the biggest difference between the common and the advanced players.
Yeah this is the only post that I've been excited to respond to since last week. Good **** JFox, way to give me someone to talk to.

You're definitely right, and I'm playing the game aerially anyways, so I really can't say much about this, but we have talked about Brawl as more like traditional fighters. I buy the case that the metagame is going to take longer to develop since a lot of players are still jumping in hoping to l-cancel stuff, but there are also a lot of players who aren't.

Now that I think about it, I dash attack and whatever the AT is called for running up and usmashing all the time. I really don't even jump that much, so my style (in Brawl anyways) is already changing. Unfortunately, the immediate consequence of a more ground-based game is more camping, since we have less viable options on the ground and it's harder to get a first hit if you can't just jump in and spam reliable approaches. Maybe we will find reliable approaches in Brawl, but that has yet to be seen.

I agree that things could develop completely differently than they did in Melee. Most of the things I'm talking about are aerial combos, and the fact that they don't work just furthers your idea that this game is just ground-based.

Good work JFox.

I do want to be a jerk and add that if you want to have a ground-based style in Melee, most characters can afford to do that while still having the option of being aerial characters too. It annoys me that Brawl restricts you to just the one.

JFox actually took the time to explain. I still think there's no need to explain the obvious :/
LMAO! These things are far from obvious! Wow. I can't believe you just took the only thing that's made any sense to me this entire time and shrugged at it. Wow. As though you already thought of all that and conscoiusly decided not to say it. Wow. Truly horrible.

Wow.
 

Rain(ame)

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
2,129
Location
I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
JFox, you took the time to say what I didn't have time to say. I feel like....like you read my mind. O_O. I would say I'd like to meet you, but I have once or twice at Smashacre. At any rate, Patience is the key, but I need to learn all of the currently "broken" stuff now. Gamestop tourney + 1 on 1= big prizes. There's more in the equation, but I don't feel like explaining it, xD.
 

GOTM

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,776
Location
West Chester, PA
LMAO! These things are far from obvious! Wow. I can't believe you just took the only thing that's made any sense to me this entire time and shrugged at it. Wow. As though you already thought of all that and conscoiusly decided not to say it. Wow. Truly horrible.

Wow.
wow...WOW! Are you serious? Your just gonna run away and throw ****?! I just wanna **** you!

/mow
 

Eazy23

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
1,383
Jfox that was the best post for the opposing side I have ever seen. As of now I am changing my view on brawl for the better, and a post like that makes me feel like it isn't a waste.

Keitaro...there is no point in debating with scar all this time if you did not indeed want to prove him wrong or make yourself right. So uhh if you had a jfox post in you...you should have thrown it out there. Not saying jfox proved scar wrong, but it opened everyones eyes more than the average "bs post" everyone has been throwing out ya know?
But seriously Jfox should get that post copyrighted....It will be used for the ages.
 

Eazy23

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
1,383
I might be, u can come get destroyed in smash and guitar hero if you would like lol
 

teh_spamerer

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
4,067
Location
Good luck Mario
I do want to be a jerk and add that if you want to have a ground-based style in Melee, most characters can afford to do that while still having the option of being aerial characters too. It annoys me that Brawl restricts you to just the one.
A lot of characters in melee are forced to be ground based. Mewtwo, Luigi, Doc, Mario, Roy, and Ice Climbers spend the majority of the time on the ground. There are also characters like Kirby, Jigglypuff, and Ganon who spend most of their time using aeriels. Now I know you did say "most characters", and while the majority can choose, I thought I should point out that a number of characters are forced to play one way. I'd also like the mention that with the remaining characters, there are a numbere of instances where you're forced to play a certain way if you want to win. Fox vs Bowser, for instance. As Fox, you normally have the option of being aggressive if you want to, but you'd get ***** by Bowser if you try that.

LOL @ GOTM's post, it's hilarious.

EDIT: Fox vs Bowser is a bad example since Bowser is awful. But let's take Marth vs Captain Falcon. Marth can't be aggressive if he wants to win and if you don't believe me, ask Jason Zimmerman the OOvideogamegodOO.
 

JFox

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
5,310
Location
Under a dark swarm
But seriously Jfox should get that post copyrighted....It will be used for the ages.
I LOL'd.

Seriously, the only reason I made that post is because scar challenged my manhood.

But if you notice (as some of you have) I never once made a point that Brawl has anything competitive about it currently. In fact, I find the game right now to be totally boring.

And actually, CHANCES are brawl is gonna suck. Nintendo got really lucky that Melee turned out as balanced as it did without any patches. The tiers could have been far worse...

And the sad part is the only way to prevent this is for Nintendo to periodically check up on the game and makes sure that they correct the glitches people find, which would mean that they would be taking away any developed meta-game. This would keep the game at a very shallow level, where the target audience is people who enjoy 4 player ffa, Super Mario Party Brawl.

Again, you don't really know what its gonna be like. Chances are, people who are pessimistic about brawl will be right about brawl. But you CANNOT compare the two games right now, theres just too many things we don't know yet.
 
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