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The tier list V.3 discussion (What next?)

Chis

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Below you’ll find the second official SBR-B Brawl tier list. The previous tier list can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments. Note that player skill is more important than character choice and match ups can overcome tier differences, but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character. This list will probably change over time, as Brawl is still relatively young and the Melee tiers were debated until the very end. So don’t give up on your character just yet, maybe you’re the one to make a difference!

The list was created by the SBR-B after much heated discussion. For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character. The split was decided by looking at the gaps. As the person supervising it, I’d like to thank all SBR-B members who contributed.

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66 <--lol wut?
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63

Expect the next tier list on June 5th.
Roy was right.

Please keep this civil, I don't want it locked.

Discuss//

Edit: Also...

:metaknight:
Meta Knight
=

1. to 1.


:snake:
Snake
=

2. to 2.


:falco:
Falco
+ 2

5. to 3.


:dedede:
King Dedede
- 1

3. to 4.


:gw:
Mr. Game & Watch
- 1

4. to 5.


:marth:
Marth
+ 1

7. to 6.


:diddy:
Diddy Kong
+ 4

11. to 7.


:wario:
Wario
=

8. to 8.


:rob:
R.O.B.
- 3

6. to 9.


:lucario:
Lucario
- 1 / - 2 (ties with Olimar for 10/11th)

9. to 10./11.


:olimar:
Olimar
+ 7 / + 8 (ties with Lucario for 10/11th)

18. to 10./11.


:pikachu2:
Pikachu
=

12. to 12.


:kirby2:
Kirby
+ 1

14. to 13.


:dk2:
Donkey Kong
- 4

10. to 14.


:popo:
Ice Climbers
- 2

13. to 15.


:zerosuitsamus:
Zero Suit Samus
+ 5

21. to 16.


:toonlink:
Toon Link
=

17. to 17.


:pit:
Pit
- 3

15. to 18.


:peach:
Peach
+ 5

24. to 19.


:wolf:
Wolf
- 4

16. to 20.


:luigi2:
Luigi
+ 2

23. to 21.


:zelda:
Zelda
- 2

20. to 22.


:bowser2:
Bowser
- 1

22. to 23.


:fox:
Fox
- 5

19. to 24.


:shiek:
Sheik
+ 1

26 to 25


:ike:
Ike
- 1

25 to 26


:mario2:
Mario
+ 2

29. to 27.


:lucas:
Lucas
- 1 / - 2 (ties with Ness for 28/29th)

27. to 28./29.


:ness2:
Ness
= / -1 (ties with Lucas for 28/29th)

28. to 28./29.


:samus2:
Samus
+ 1

31. to 30.


:sonic:
Sonic
+ 2

33. to 31.


:pt:
Pokémon Trainer
- 2

30. to 32.


:yoshi2:
Yoshi
- 1

32. to 33.


:link2:
Link
+ 2

36. to 34.


:jigglypuff:
Jigglypuff
- 1

34. to 35.


:ganondorf:
Ganondorf
- 1

35. to 36.


:falcon:
Captain Falcon
=

37. to 37.
[/QUOTE]
 

Chis

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3 key points

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current meta game. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments.
....

Note that player skill is more important than character choice and match ups can overcome tier differences, but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character.
....

The list was created by the SBR-B after much heated discussion. For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character.
Therefore this list isn't exempt from character bias or misconceptions.
 

ROOOOY!

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I think he'll rise, but only by a very few places, maybe 2 or 3.

I think they'll form a bottom tier, and he'll only just avoid that.

I'ma save this to favourites, then when the new tier list is released in a few days I'll throw this up in everyone's faces and gloat.

I have a knack for prediction. I am SO getting into gambling with sports.

:093:
I ****ing called it.

Meh, how unexpected was this? Really?

You can't get rid of me, sorry guys.

:093:
 

Zenthewanderer

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Wow... Just wow.

I was hoping he'd at least hit the next level considering the reduced number of novice Sonics and more pleasing Tournament results. But I still put little faith in the oppinion of a handful of Smash players. There will always be too much bias for me to accept their creations.

I am happy that Sonic didn't go down. All my mains improved their tier placements- even though only slightly.
 

Chis

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I think Sonic got screwed again

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments.


B: (Ice Climbers, ROB, Sonic, Olimar), (Peach, Lucario), (Pikachu, Mr. Game & Watch, Zelda/Sheik)

Past Lists
Fall 2008
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus

August/September 2008
D: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, (Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik), Fox, Mario

July/August 2008
D: Fox, Ike, (Sonic, Lucas, Pokémon Trainer, ZeldaSheik)

6 :diddy: 29 placings
8 :zerosuitsamus: 13 placings
8 :marth: 22 placings

B Rank <Standard> 17.70%
10 :popo: 13 placings
10 :rob: 21 placings
10 :sonic: 11 placings
10 :olimar: 19 placings
14 :peach: 7 placings
14 :lucario: 10 placings
16 :pikachu2: 11 placings
16 :gw: 16 placings


QF... lulz.

I'm especially liking the part where the only reason sonic has any points whatsoever is because of the sheer amount of people using him, far more than any other character. Literally millions.

I dont care that you think Sonic is a bad character. EVERYONE, even Sonic mains know hes a bad character. But you can not go on claiming the only reason he performs well in this chart is because so many people use him that it skews the results. Its clearly not the case.
but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character.

???

For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character. The split was decided by looking at the gaps.

Therefore this list isn't exempt from character bias or misconceptions.

the sonic boards are the running joke of the SBR/ Staffer Shack.

It's a red herring XD


Sonic is mostly limited by his low priority. MK's d-tilt in place > everything Sonic has. :(


I beat Anther's Sonic, after being down a stock, because OS was standing right there and said "dastrn: don't move and hit down tilt."

It worked. Sonic is garbage.
Past that, Sonic is pretty bad. Doesn't his dash attack go over Diddy Bananas, without picking them up. I think Prime told me that once.

Sonic definitely is a top tier character with items on. He gets the items, they work for him, and they solve his KO problem.

What does Mr. 3000 and the like do with him that is different? From what I've seen, all the "good" Sonic players do is no different than the "bad" Sonic players... the good sonic players just do it better and call their opponent on more.

It seems Sonic's entire game is based around punishment.
I think the best way to fight sonic is to throw out attacks as quickly as possible and to pretend his attacks don't exist. It works alarmingly well.
I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable

so... are people seriously implying that sonic isn't horrible or what

the fundamentals of his overall character are just dreadful in every respect

o.O
???
 

BurtonEarny

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i like this one alot more than the first one which some parts further on down the line was bollux. Oh missed the (Sonic) part. I really have never played a great sonic before... seems a little low simply for the speed and recovery he has...
 

ithrowthings

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Well you guys don't have to worry much longer. Overswarm seems to be a large reason for these rankings being low and I'll get to rematch him here pretty soon in regionals. Hopefully that'll convince him Sonic's higher than that.

Also Chis, where'd you get that character placings list?
 

Tenki

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no u

seems like a boost was necessary but 2 ranks was abbeit short of expectations?
Not really.

With the recent hype of the D-throw issue, I'm kind of ... well, mostly sure that if it came up to SBR members, they'd probably have skimmed the "oh, Luigi can fire punch and Jigglypuff can rest Sonic out of a correctly-DI'd D-throw" and thought of it as a significant issue.

Though, AlphaZealot's "so what?" kind of response to that thread sheds doubt on that. As for the funny few that we love to quote, it's probably true.


But the second and most realistic situation is that they didn't really care and just put more characters below Sonic.

>_>

but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character.
Alot of the Sonics that have placed recently - I've played alot of them on Wi-Fi via allisbrawl, some of them even before some of you guys had even heard of them (Phoenix Dark, Shugo). The ones that play on AiB play a wide variety of players because there are people who main like, everyone. Or were. We have an idea of character tendencies and adjust their behaviors to what we can expect offline in matchups. Though, Shugo did mention the IC issue. There aren't many IC's on wifi for obvious reasons, but trust me, the few IC mains that do go online tend to know how to make use of desynchs and do many more things than just bumrush you for a chaingrab.

That said, even as we entered our first offline tournaments, we did very well. We have experience trying out different strategies and exposing ourselves to player habits (example, edge or roll habits).

People can say there are tons of Sonic mains that enter tournaments, contributing to his placing, but either that's not true and there are 1-2 Sonics in that region, or the Sonics they play are trash (I wouldn't dare call someone who isn't read up on or explored Sonic's capabilities a Sonic main). But from how I see it, it's just the onslaught as a few of the good 'wifi-Sonics' are finally entering the tournament scene.

You'd think, Oh, but it's their first offline-tournaments, and they placed really high, and/or even won! Doesn't that say something about Sonic as a character??

Here's where it breaks down.

The people they play against didn't have matchup experience against Sonic.

You've seen the trash that prominent members throw around. You laugh at the matchup discussions when people are sprouting on about how Sonic has low priority since they outprioritize Sonic's spindash, while we destroy them with our U-airs and B-airs, and outspace them with tilts and outmanuever their spacing with our movement options and shieldgrabs.

And finally, they see a Sonic main for the first time and they get destroyed.

good game.

And we win.

Seriously, you see the same garbage for Falcon and PT. No, any of the mid-low tier characters.

"Falcon has little priority! lolol" then you come across a Falcon who aggrorushes, punishes your attacks, and outprioritizes you with some surprisingly decent-priority moves and grab followups.

"Charizard is slow! Ivysaur sucks!" Then you come across a PT player who can time Rock-Smash as a counterattack (it explodes on contact), make use of Charizard's 'finished' ('autocancelled') aerials, and grab game. Or someone who can competently use Ivysaur's spacing tools, and Bullet Seed out of spotdodge/shield, or even up-B as an edgehog/kill move. Or even just a PT main who continues to fight you even when low on stamina, whittling away until they can get that D-throw or something to switch, or just straight up take you to a high % and kill.

And I'm sure everyone's familiar with Yoshi, and hopefully Samus players and abilities.

I'd take this season/year as being a more telling time for Sonic, especially if the Sonic mains who just recently entered the tourney scene go to more tourneys and start to go up against people who begin to and finally learn the matchup.

:093:
 

JesseMeza

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Well, at least Sonic ranked up a little bit. Give it time gents, give it time. Meanwhile, what am I going to do about my sig? F tier just sounds....weird.
 

ROOOOY!

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I think this is the best we're getting folks, enjoy it.

And I completely agree with Tenki's statement, about match-up in experience.

BUT WAIT!

Sonic is only doing well because a million people try to use him and are extremely zealous over him.
How...could people be inexperienced if...millions...of...people..use..him?! D;

:093:
 

Tenki

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Well, that one's obviously wrong 9_9'

...

...right?
 

ShadowLink84

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I find it rather odd that Eddreeses would say that because we have seen for a fact that Sonic is far from a popular character nationally.

We have also seen that in cases where a character is extremely popular (Link and Captain Falcon in melee) their placings did not reflect their incredible popularity.

Let alone if you suck with a character, any character, you will not place well so even if 50% of attendees decided to main Sonic, they would not place well at all because the better players will usually beat them. (upsets happen but not so much to skew sonic's results) so popularity is hardly the reason especially since Sonic was much more popular in the beginning of brawl.

Let alone that the argument of "we are inexperienced against him" is contradictory to that popularity statement.
If Sonic is so very popular then inexperience is not an issue.

So let us say that Sonic is extremely popular. We have seen from past experience that this doesn't change the characters placings enough to skew results and so there is no reason to e inexperienced against the character.

What we should take into account is that the tierlist reflects static behavior.
in short it does not take into account mindgames and other immeasurable factors.

So yes, the SBR is right in Sonic's placing even if some of their reasons are wrong.

The thing is though is that do feel that some of sonic's capability for mindgames should be taken into account.
Yes I am a Sonic main and yes I am probably biased but considering the fact that Captain Falcon in melee had incredible mindgames which were factored into his matchups, I feel it makes sense for the same to occur with sonic especially since his moveset is so very geared towards it.

*shrug*
 

Tenki

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I find it rather odd that AZ would say that because we have seen for a fact that Sonic is far from a popular character nationally.
AZ didn't say that.

When I mentioned AZ, I meant when Boxob decided to go make the "HOW TO COUNTER SONIC'S D-THROW AND WITH WHAT!" thread, AZ approached it with a 'so what? sonic has better throws/isn't reliant on this' kind of attitude, rather than a 'haha, Sonic's metagame is crippled!' view.

though, considering the rest of your post, you probably meant Edreese.
 

ShadowLink84

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AZ didn't say that.

When I mentioned AZ, I meant when Boxob decided to go make the "HOW TO COUNTER SONIC'S D-THROW AND WITH WHAT!" thread, AZ approached it with a 'so what? sonic has better throws/isn't reliant on this' kind of attitude, rather than a 'haha, Sonic's metagame is crippled!' view.

though, considering the rest of your post, you probably meant Edreese.
The edit will reflect the correction.
Why was I thinking AZ?
Oh yeah, diddy.
 

Chis

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This list, overall, is a fairly good list. There are a few blatant mistakes that no amount of convincing could have fixed (like Captain Falcon being the worst still and Sonic being so low). And I definitely feel like we should/could have combined B/C tier into one, but I think this list does its job and otherwise is a good representation of the current metagame.
There is hope.
 

ROOOOY!

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To be honest, I actually can't see why Sonic is down there.

I mean, Sonic below the like of Ness and Lucas...Samus especially.

I only think Sonic should be 4 or 5 spots higher then that. Considering a bottom tier has been made (like I rightly predicted) I don't think Sonic is mid tier material.

Low low is just an insult to the hard work done by the people here though.

:054:
 

Napilopez

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Imma post part of what I posted in the tier list thread. I think the problem with the lower tiers arises much from the voting system.

Finally read through all of this, gosh.

I agree with most of the top placings.

Lower tiers are where I begin to disagree.

I have a problem with the voting system. I think it works perfectly fine for the higher placed characters, but as you come to the low tiers, many disagreements will tend to ensue I would think, and it just seems the lower tiers were less critically evaluated. Not saying they wereee, but it seems that way. I feel like below D rank or E rank, the characters need to be reevaluated moreso on looking at the characters individual properties and results and such. The voting system seems like it would really lead to innacuracies for the lower tier characters because opinions here could vary so much.

I'm not even doing this so much because of Sonic.

I'm honestly with the yoshi mains here, I can't think of a single reason why Yoshi would move down. I do think he needs more tourney rep in large tournaments, however, but clearly this isn't just about tournies. Even just looking at character attributes and matchups, I don't think he deserves to be there. Likewise there is the problem with Ness and Lucas. I think Ness is clearly better than Lucas, and I think that Yoshi and Sonic PT show at least more potential than lucas and samus.

So thats my gripe with the voting system. Its alot of characters for individual people to evaluate on a 15 point basis, and overall agreements are likely to exist in the higher tiers, the lower tiers just don't seem right by simply looking at it logically, from my point of view. Perhaps use a voting system first, and then critically reaveluate parts of it in order to make sure there is an accurate representation in the lower tiers?

Its hard to explain what I'm getting at, but it just doesn't "feel" like the voting system would yield accurate results in the lower tiers. Think about it and maybe you'll see what I mean.

Any clarification from the SBR-B would be much appreciated though, these are just my personal thoughts =P
What do y'all think? As someone suggested after I posted this, I think there should be a secondary vote or more votes afterwards, perhaps for each individual tier, to further make the list more accurate.
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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Yea I do see where you're coming from Nap

Also:

To all people saying their character should be higher: go ahead and prove it. Don't count on one or two good players to drastically raise a character. Potential means little if there are no results to back it up. I'll be the first to admit we have a much more informed opinion about the high tier characters and chances are the next tier list looks quite different, especially in the lower regions. However, this is what SBR members voted on while looking at the current metagame. Everyone will find something wrong with the list, something they or even their entire region sees differently. The list isn't exactly the same as my vote either, but I don't have any major issues with it. The split is statistically sound and if you don't like it, you got the average score for each character along with it.
I'm surprised none of you picked up on this. Don't go crazy now D:

*is worried he's done something bad*
 

ithrowthings

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I think this is the best we're getting folks, enjoy it.

And I completely agree with Tenki's statement, about match-up in experience.

BUT WAIT!

Originally Posted by EdreesesPieces
Sonic is only doing well because a million people try to use him and are extremely zealous over him.

How...could people be inexperienced if...millions...of...people..use..him?! D;

:093:
I agree entirely. I've been to about 20 tournaments now and out of every tournament I've ever been to I've only met 3 other people that I would call Sonic mains. In fact, I don't even see that many bad players really ever using Sonic. In the entire state of Ohio there's pretty much just Shugo and I that main Sonic regularly at tournaments. I've killed countless bad MKs at so many tournaments. If "millions of people" using a character is an excuse as to why he's doing so well in tournaments, then that explains a lot about MK.

But I digress, I've had responses ranging from " Sonic? Seriously?" to "Dude, why are they using low tiers in doubles? They're gonna get destroyed!" and it gets kind of annoying that people tend to judge your character based entirely on your place in society... I mean, his placement in the tier list.

IMHO Sonic should be floating somewhere around the low end of the D tier. Wolf shouldn't be that high and the only reason Peach is that high is because Vidjo's Peach annihalated OS's R.O.B. at test your might 2.

Also, we probably shouldn't have a revote because they're remaking the list soon enough anyways.
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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That's completely untrue about Peach's placement. Her tourney record has been consistantly good for ages. She doesn't have too many bad match ups and overall, she's a good character

Vidjo is no way the only reason Peach is that high. A lot of other Peach's have been ranking well with her

/endcharacterrant :D
 

Shugo-Chan

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But ITT i find it hilarious when people underestimate Sonic's potential beforehand because they end up speechless afterwards. Lol
 

ithrowthings

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That's completely untrue about Peach's placement. Her tourney record has been consistantly good for ages. She doesn't have too many bad match ups and overall, she's a good character

Vidjo is no way the only reason Peach is that high. A lot of other Peach's have been ranking well with her

/endcharacterrant :D
Fact: Peach used to be 24th in the tier list.

Fact: Vidjo used Peach to utterly destroy OS in test your might

Fact: Peach then rose 6 places in the tier list to where she is now.

But ITT i find it hilarious when people underestimate Sonic's potential beforehand because they end up speechless afterwards. Lol
Oh so true, those guys freaked out when the lost to "Team Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games" that close to the semi-finals. Most of the times I'm met with extreme anger at the fact that they lost to Sonic.
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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The biggest issue with Sonic's placement is that everyone who shoots him down constantly contradict themselves and make great big gaping loop holes

"Sonic is a bad character who will never get anywhere"

Ok fair enough but he's got enough qualities/punishment skills to bring up. And his tournament results are very very good compared to those in his tiers

"Sonic's results are skewed and flawed. Character fanbase is only getting him anywhere"
The last rankings list (:ohwell:) proved otherwise. Also, if I remember correctly, isn't one of your main Sonic tourney placers (X?) NOT reporting his results?

"So many people main Sonic. That's what's only getting him anywhere"

Right...

"When people figure out the matchup, Sonic will be crap tier!"

If so many people use Sonic, why is it people haven't figured out the match up yet?

Edit:
Fact: Peach used to be 24th in the tier list.

Fact: Vidjo used Peach to utterly destroy OS in test your might

Fact: Peach then rose 6 places in the tier list to where she is now.

QUOTE]

Fact: Peach has been placing consistantly in B Rank for ages now

Vidjo may have helped but I highly doubt he is the sole reason Peach moved up so much. She was garbage on the tier list last time because of the 'omg she sucks' attitudes before people learned how to play her properly

Other people such as Edreese have proved that Peach is better than that original list stated
 

Kinzer

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Well boys... as far as data accumlated goes, we've probably accomplished a **** lot... as for convincing Sonic is/isn't crap... the way anybody could at it, we've done a good/bad job at that... I can already tell that list is flawed when they put Samus above Sonic... anybody could easily argue that she has worse matchups (she's one of the unlucky 5/6 after all), defenitely less tourney results let alone representation, and a staggered metagame and yet... there she is...

The only reason I like this list better is because Sonic is now officially only "the 7th worst character.", otherwise for all the hard-work the False SBR put in this, there are so many things wrong with it, that it even looks funny by the arrangement (I can understand MK having his own tier, but why Snake?)
 

Chis

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ArcadianPirate
Could you guys construct one argument to yes Sonic should be higher addressing all the misconceptions etc, etc. Because arguing until June would be daunting.

And rate my Sonic :p
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
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GA
any1 know wen the next tier list update is??
January 5th, June 5th- New Tier List

January TBD, June 5th- New SBR Recommended Ruleset

April 1st, August 1st, December 1st- New SBR-Brawl Member Admissions. (This means from now you have about 4 months to pad your resume and get your application in *no one will be admitted without applying*)

o k
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
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Video Games
lmao i got infractionz on the main thread.

SBR members playing the same game as me is an insult to my intelligence.

at least we beat yoshi though :p (ill bet anything half the SBR doesnt even know he infinites wario)
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
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Camalange
3DS FC
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Well, looks like ROOOOY is here to stay.

I'd love to add to this discussion, but everyone covered everything so well, anything I would say would just sound redundant D:

You guys are too good.

Am I the only one who finds the new ranking system...confusing?

Saying Sonic is Low Tier sounds better than Sonic is F Tier.

EDIT: Not only that, I'm still reading all the comments in the main discussion, lol.

:093:
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
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G tier is totally Ganondorf tier. im gonna write a new blog when i come home

ill call it 'Welcome to SWF, please leave your brain at the door'

Meh at the end of the day id rather have a character unfairly ranked low than main a character who gets ranked high but extremely gayed by things like DDDs infinite
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
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You guys should convince Azen to play Sonic. Give him 3 weeks and he will take first.
...Does that really even matter?

"Sawnik only won because Azen played him. The Tier list is about character potential, not player skill."

amidoinitrite?

:093:
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
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Kinzer
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any1 know wen the next tier list update is??
Maybe in another six months.

Well, looks like ROOOOY is here to stay.

You guys are too good.

Am I the only one who finds the new ranking system...confusing?

Saying Sonic is Low Tier sounds better than Sonic is F Tier.

:093:
Yes.

Yes.

No.

I like the idea of fun tier.

You guys should convince Azen to play Sonic. Give him 3 weeks and he will take first.
We'll probably just have another Sonic player fill out that role. I call Chudat.

...Does that really even matter?

"Sawnik only won because Azen played him. The Tier list is about character potential, not player skill."

amidoinitrite?

:093:
may be, or u mite be doin it rong.
 
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