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The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Sort of. I'm hanging these red moderating boots so I can spend more time on more pressing matters. So yeah, I won’t be here that often :L
Wait a minute. If you're heading out, who will oversee the place?

Who still stop me if when I go loose? ;_; I don't trust myself anymore gsgjsnguinguip.

Well. In any case, I wish you luck. Please stop by every so often huh?

Edit: @BAM, you meant to direct that at me? Yeah, I can get that done eventually I suppose.

:093:
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
if you really need specifics start at 13% thats how much bair does and most likely well be using that to combo into the down tilts anyway.

or u can use 12, since i set up my down tilts with up throw sometimes.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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Alright, I'm long overdue for one of these info dumps!

FSmash

Assuming that there is no hold of the charge, frames 1-17 are start-up.
First active hitbox is frame 18. Lasts for four frames, or last active hitbox being on frame 21.
Frames 22-43 are cooldown frames.
Charge frames begin on frame 13.
Charge release is 6 frames.

DSmash

Assuming that there is no hold of the charge, frames 1-16 are start-up.
First active hitbox is frame 17.
First type hitbox (12%) from frames 17-20.
Second type hitbox (9%) hitbox from frames 21-26.
Third type hitbox (7%) from frames 27-32
Fourth and final type hitbox (5%) from frames 33-41.
Frames 42-54 are cooldown.
Charge frames begin on frame 15.
Charge release is 3 frames.

USmash

Assuming that there is no hold of the charge, frames 1-18 are start-up
First active hitbox is frame 19.
Frame 20 is a deadzone.
Second hitbox is frame 21.
Frame 22 is a deadzone.
Third hitbox is frame 23.
Frame 24 is a deadzone.
Fourth hitbox is frame 25.
Frame 26 is a deadzone.
Fifth hitbox is frame 27.
Frame 28 is a deadzone.
Sixth hitbox is frame 29.
Frame 30 is a deadzone.
Seventh hitbox is frame 31.
Frame 32 is a deadzone.
Eight and final hitbox is frame 33.
Frames 34-65 are cooldown.
Charge frames begin on frame 14
Charge release is 6 frames.

All of Sonic's smash attacks (and whether this is universal for every other character I don't care, this applies to Sonic at least) take 60 frames of charging to be at full power.

Read below for my notes on Sonic's USmash "invincibility"

Alright fellas, until I can learn how to work PSA to a master's degree or have somebody else confirm this for me, this all I can tell you:

For the longest time, I used to believe that Sonic just had one frame of invincibility somewhere in the start-up. Where it lies was beyond me then, and even then I still need to post this just so that I can look somewhat credible but give possibly new data at the same time.

Nobody questions that Sonic's body behaves very strangely when USmash happens. It also doesn't help me in figuring this out that USmash's hitbox can behave just as equally strange. What I think it is is that it is a combination of the three. The three being true invincibility, absurd disjoint, and abstract displacement.

How did I find out what I did? It's very simple.

... If I had a better way to explain this other than detailed description. Please bare with me, I'll give away every detail and try to make it as clear as I possibly can.

I had two Sonic's USmash one another.

Getting them to USmash would only have the two clank on the 19th frame, which didn't say anything.

Getting one to USmash 1-frame sooner would have the one that USmashed later go right through the first one's first hitbox. After that, the second Sonic's first USmash hitbox became active but the first Sonic went right through it.

Another way to look at that is to label the two Sonic's. Let's call the one that USmash's sooner Sonic-1, and the second one Sonic-2 respectively. When Sonic-1 initiated his USmash, Sonic-2 would initiate his USmash one frame later. After going through their start-up, the result is that on frame 18 of Sonic-2's USmash, Sonic-1's USmash did not connect (on frame 19; first active hitbox). On frame 20 of Sonic-1's USmash, Sonic-2's USmash did not connect (on frame 19, first active hitbox). On frame 21 of Sonic-1's USmash, Sonic-2 did not get harmed (frame 20, first deadzone) as expected from before. On frame 22 of Sonic-1's USmash, Sonic-2's USmash second type hitbox landed, and the rest is just as you'd expect.

With all that said, there's a couple of things I can say.

There's no invincibility of any sort on frame 17, and nothing before. Frame 18 there is most certainly invincibility. From these tests, it is safe to say that there is true invincibility on frames 19 and 20.

After that though, continuing this test only complicated things and didn't tell me anything concrete.

So afterwards (and this is honestly what I should've done first), I went and got Marth. Marth has an Up-B that's invincible from frames 1-5, with the hitbox on frame 6. I then got Sonic (just Sonic now) to do his USmash, and timed it so that Marth would hit with Dolphin Slash on the 21st frame of Sonic's USmash. The result was that the two attacks traded. If nothing else, Sonic's USmash invincibility ends on frame 20, and has three frames of invincibility.

TL;DR

If you have any other way to prove or disprove these numbers, please let me know, otherwise please put it on the frame map that Sonic's USmash is invincible from frame 18-20. After that I don't care.


Don't ask me to get Homing Attack's frame data, it sucks and you should feel bad for even making a serious request that I get active hitbox data for this sucky move.

Yeah yeah, I'll get more as time goes on. I'm gonna look into MK's D-Throw and Falco's Jab, so I may edit this post or make a new one, we'll see.

Don't mind me, making Espy's job of copy-pasta'ing somewhat easier.

All these links have some kind of information in them that I believe is worth throwing in the community guide somewhere.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12325448&postcount=352
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12269444&postcount=347
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12223564&postcount=343
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11858978&postcount=295

Bump Da Whump.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Eff you~! D°<

*I'll make this post actually worthwhile, for now, >MFW.*

Alright, this time around there's a little bit less (more like it'll probably be missing all-together) of hard data, but this should go over some of the ideas and things that people have gone through and will go through when playing Sonic in a competitive environment.

I would like for each level to get it's own sub-category. It makes sense, from something like "getting started," "mid-level play," and "high/top-level play."

First with getting started, I think it's obvious that this section should go over some of the challenges that new players will face when starting out with Sonic.

I want to make this apply to everyone though, and I'm sure that there have been/are some people whose competitive campaign has not originally started with Brawl or Sonic. I will make sure it applies to them too, but let's say we just have a Third Strike player who for whatever reason decided he wanted to play Brawl, and particularly play Sonic. He should already have an idea of what it means to be successful and/or be a good player. Admittingly the getting started tab may not benefit them much, if at all, but I still feel that everybody deserves to have an idea of the challenge they'll face regardless of their origin.

Without further adieu...

Getting Started

The Challenge

Welcome one and all to Sonic the Hedgehog in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It is our understanding that some of you might have a little bit of experience either with another character or another competitive scene; it is also expected that there will be some of you who have absolutely no experience with competition dealing with video games. Either way, it is essential that whatever your reason be that you have an idea of some of the things you'll come to face during your first steps, and forevermore so long as you stay with your decision to play as Sonic.

People with a background will find this easier to break into, and are probably already aware of what it means to be a good player; in particular, to be better than the opponent(s). Sonic is the type of character who is made by the player. That means that the trial is very unforgiving and there is very little place for error. Due to Sonic's playstyle, the player is required to always be conscious of his or her actions, and to adapt to the situation and respond accordingly. This applies at low-level play, and especially moreso at high-top level play were both players are expected to have an understanding of the overall game.

Overcoming the Challenge

With that said, it is not out of the question to be discouraged not once, but many times. It is a lot of work, and it isn't until so much later that the effort is returned with rewards. Many have taken the trial, and just as many have given up; either on Sonic or on themselves.

You have your reasons, no question. If you don't, you'll find out what brought you to Sonic soon enough. You may also find that Sonic may not fit you, if that's the type of person you end up being; again assuming you have yet to find your drive. Regardless, if you already have a definite inspiration, be it childhood memories, seeking a challenge, or to liberate yourself of bad habits, you'll probably want to remember it for when it does get tough. Believe it that it will.

Remember it well though, one cannot go for long without their personal inspiration. No one person who does anything with passion will tell you that they're doing it just because. This is no exception.

The Do's and Do nots

Even a vetaran will have habits, or develop them over time. New players have it especially bad. If you hope to see improvement in your overall gameplay, it is best that you constantly beat it into your head that you need to work on a good base, and study what it means to have a good mindset.

Sonic is a diverse character. It is all too easy to forget that we can fall into a pattern, or limit ourselves to one certain playstyle. The best way to counter this is to learn every single thing that Sonic can do at any given time. To give an example, one may see that recovery is as simple as a Spring Jump, but that option alone is limited that your whereabouts are predictable and leave you open for punishment. One may not see or remember that Sonic can wall-jump, use Homing attack to either stall or give another angle of recovery, et cetera. On the offensive, ASC is one way of approaching, but the opponent has a plethora of ways to counter this one act. The same goes for many other of Sonic's approaches to be honest. It will be covered in other sections of this guide, but in short, Sonic needs to keep the opponent guessing by having more than one approach; this may require you just run in and dash attack, grab, SDR, and so on.

Take your time in studying Sonic's options, and take the time to practice some of the techs. If it takes you 5 minutes or five hours to get something down, just remember that when you finally break it in, you release the shackles that held you down before and become that much stronger.

One steadfast person is good, two determined people or an entire group or community of them is infinitely times better. If you can, find someone who has the same will to improve their gameplay. This can be either a newcomer or a battle-hardened veteran, find somebody who can call out your habits and punish you for them. It's a symbiotic relationship that can prove beneficial to the both of you, and there's very little substitute other than being very aware of yourself or being able to record yourself in video format and dissecting yourself.

Your First Tournament Experience

For some people, Brawl in particular may be their first game. Some others may already know what it means to compete in a tournament but may not have played with Sonic before. It is important to understand; especially when first starting out, that there will always be somebody who is just better than us.

The first tournament should be an experience not of shame, self-doubt, arrogance, ignorance, or anything of that nature, but rather one of realization and education. The mindset that a player has will most certainly play a factor in performance, but it is essential to remember that either extreme will only prove to be the downfall of the player. Going in expecting to lose badly tacks on a huge burden on the mental state of the player then and sometime after the experience, likewise thinking you're "hot stuff" will only set yourself up for serious disappointment. Even those who are naturally talented can only get so far before they eventually need to practice. Try to find the right balance where you will do your best, and use that to gauge where you currently stand around your local community and improve from there. Recall that you wouldn't see much progress for a long time, but as long as you choose to stick with it and condition yourself to improve you will eventually climb that ladder.

Mid-Level Play

The Drive

If you're reading this after a couple of weeks, if not months of play with Sonic, you've probably begun to understand just what it means to play Sonic. Not easy is it?

By now, you should moreorless have mastered... oh, let's say maybe 65% of Sonic's game? More importantly, you've begun to notice the importance of understanding this game as a whole. If not, you may want to start.

Again, players who hail from different communities will already have this idea down, but the newcomers are beginning to realize just how little they know. It is true afterall, "ignorance is bliss." At this point, you can compare yourself to some of the more seasoned players and see how fluent they are with their movements, and just how commanding of an assault they can have when they get their moments.

All at the same time, why is it that despite how hard you try, you just cannot draw nearly the same success?

If the hints haven't been enough, it isn't necessarily because you suck. Try to put yourself in other peoples' shoes. Other people being your opponents, the seasoned Sonic players, or even some of the newer people in the community. Yes, it's possible that you can learn a thing or two just by observation. It might even pay to take a more active role in your career. Ask questions, interrogate the superstars, tell them how far they've come and with a little bit of a push they can go that extra nine yards. Find out that it isn't nearly as clearcut as you may have originally thought.

Most people will tell you that where they are now, it's been a long and tough road, and they are nowhere near where they want to be even after years of play. Newbies and veterans are both alike in the sense that they want to get better. They are also similar in that they have a certain motivation. Veteran players will have solidified their reasons, it doesn't necessarily have to be logical to anybody else but them. As mentioned before, anybody who has a lot of time logged will tell you that it's a constant struggle to improve and not go stale. Anyone who is a true champion will tell you of their past experience in full detail in the hopes that you listen and use their experience to better yourself; perhaps prevent their past mistakes. Let's face it, nobody is perfect, and we have all done things that some to this day might still regret, and it's no question that you yourself may find yourself in those kind of situations; it will continue to happen as you learn more and become more aware of the game.

Self Realization

Recall earlier how Sonic may not be for everyone? Either sometime in the recent past, or in your soon future, your faith has been tested. Regardless of whether or not it has, it will (again) soon be tested.

As one takes it upon them self to learn more and more, it becomes apparent just how difficult it is. It is in some way peculiar to say that Sonic may be "limited," but compared to some of the other available characters in the game, he leaves much to be desired.

Is it strange to see that a Sonic guide, of all things, would leave such disclaimers? Is it right to believe that even the most adamant of Sonic fans can be incompatible with their favorite character? Is it questionable to find yourself doubting your original motive and your future? Certainly not.

If you have asked yourself something along these lines, this just means that you are beginning to understand what it means to be a top-level Sonic. No one with a couple of titles under their belt will tell you that Sonic is the perfect character. It is important to understand though that even with these shortcomings and faults, Sonic can still be the perfect character to fit the person in question.

This is what it means to have your faith tested. Even those who may not understand the game in whole will see that Sonic is limited in a few ways. To mention one, his damage output. compared to something Snake can put out, it just pales in comparison. It isn't unfair to make the comparison either, Snake deals damage through raw power. Diddy may have comparable power behind his attacks, but the difference is that Diddy has a different set of tools; mainly his bananas, that allow him access to certain set-ups which can build up.

That may be Sonic's only short-coming, if one wishes to see it as such. Everything else, and probably even the aforementioned, is up for debate. Take notice in that Sonic really has no direct approach. There is no one thing Sonic can do the entire match and have it work consistently; at least not against a player who is worth their salt. Sonic must constantly adapt to the situation and his opponent to deal damage. On paper, his range and poor damage output make it look impossible to get in. The thing to remember is that in practice, Sonic's sheer selection of options allow him to toy with his opponent and commit to an action, which Sonic can hence forth punish.

What all this is saying though is that you just have to work for each and every victory. You can again see some of the characters who are "better equipped" quote end-quote, and see that even with very little conscious play that they still get pretty far.

Once you see this, you may just ask yourself "why am I playing Sonic again? I see this and I understand that if I weren't doing this I 'could' be doing better..." It's at that point that the decision is yours. Again, it may be strange that a Sonic Guide may point you in another direction, but unless your inspiration is true it is best that you find something else to do. Really, you as a competitive player are suppose to maximize your chances of winning. Sonic is one way to go about claiming victories; just as the other characters are another way of getting to the top. Despite this, if you've come to accept that Sonic fits your playstyle best, and if you are absolutely sure that you have the determination to put in effort to outplay your opponents every step of the way, then by all means let nothing stop you from reaching your goal, your dreams. Whoever tells you that the sky is the limit has not seen what's beyond the clouds.

But enough with the motivational speech... It is important to understand that even though it may seem unfair, some of the other characters put in just much as work, if not moreso than Sonic, and can still get places.

It is important to understand just as well you may have it.

Options Select

Have you ever felt sorry for anybody else? Perhaps a new player, or perhaps you see somebody who plays a more limited character? Don't be afraid to say it, this game is not the most balanced fighter out there, and it's clear that some character have bigger flaws that hold them far back. It is debatable for some whether or not the flaws may be too plentiful, or too harsh to allow them to truly succeed. To this day, neither proves to apply to Sonic, but right now this isn't about Sonic.

Let's take a look at Link. He seems like a combat-ready warrior, fashioned with arrows, bombs, a boomerang that can summon the wind, a sword and shield at hand ready to fend off any opponent, right? If you look past all that though, you will see that he is heavy... perhaps so much so that it takes away so much of his recovery to the point that pressuring him offstage may just be a given for anyone else. With all that gear on too, it makes him very slow and committed.

Forget not that Sonic's recovery is very diverse, and somewhat effective. Imagine if Sonic's Spring Jump only carried him a quarter of the distance... Well, it could go on, but if you don't already get it, understand just how much work someone else can put in to get just as far. This applies to even some of the better characters.

At low-level play, and with opponents of equal skill-level, it may seem that one character may just have no way of losing. There is always "this one move" that is just used and abused and there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about. At top-level play, this may not apply as heavily, but it can still have it moments where it shines. It can also show itself when there is a gap in skill and one player may be a lot better than another. At the same time it may also be difficult to see. If we're still assuming top-level play, and both characters seem to go even, it may be that one player is just so ever slightly better than his opponent. It could also be that they're playing an even matchup. It could even just be that one opponent is so much better than their opponent but the character they play is just so limited or cannot deal with certain aspects of that particular matchup that it doesn't look like much is going on at that moment; and perhaps for the entire match.

Back to Sonic, we can see that Sonic is most certainly equipped for every situation. Hopefully the guide will have gone over some of that previously, and go into more detail later, but it is not impossible to see that some things can hold back Sonic in certain places.

Let's bring Lucario into this. We see a character who overtime gets stronger the longer he lives. We also see that he has some nice range to his attacks. Let's not forget that he's pretty quick.

Why mention these traits in particular?

They take advantage of Sonic's few weaknesses. Heavily at that.

Sonic already had a problem with killing. His range is also pitiful. Sonic may be quick in movement, but his attack speed kind of falls short of this.

It wouldn't be a problem if Sonic didn't have one of these, or all of them to a lesser degree, but because he does, and because Sonic is only a mid-weight character, it is commonly seen that Lucario is just an awful matchup for the hedgehog. The only way around this is to understand Lucario's options and constantly outplay the opponent by getting him to commit. This is why it was mentioned earlier that it is important to understand the game, because it definitely helps to have a field of expertise outside of Sonic. With the right knowledge, the bad matchup can be made even, but no amount of knowledge will prepare you for the impending brutality, only experience can do that; a lot of it at that.

On the opposite end; though very rare, Sonic can have the advantageous end of the matchup. Even still, there isn't much room for horseplay. Either due to Sonic's playstyle, how it comes into play in that particular matchup, or the skill-gap, never underestimate the opponent and take heed to everything that happens. You may find that you are losing a matchup you "shouldn't be losing," but either from lack of knowledge or a cocky attitude, you can lose if the opponent has a more steadfast mindset. It is equally important to learn the common and difficult matchups for Sonic, just as it is to understand what it takes to win an advantageous matchup. In some cases, it's that small tidbit that takes you ahead. Don't forget that for those cases, your opponent essentially becomes you.

Top-Level Play

TBA

TBH, I want the consent and approval on everybody on this. I [Kinzer] consider myself a high mid-level Sonic player, and slightly above average as an overall player. I only have an idea of what it means to be a top-level player, let alone one of the high-caliber Sonic players.

Espy, I'm looking at you in particular. At this point in time, you are the definite goal, and you have set forth what everybody should shoot past. If you have anything to write, I look forward to reading it, and I hope that it can contribute to teh guide and everybody else that takes interest.

At the same time, if people want to see me as a top-level Sonic player despite how little I travel and how poorly I place, I will humbly do my best to see what I can come up with and see if I can come up with something that can help even the most ascended of Sonic players on improving.

Though I'd be foolish to not mention anybody else. I know so many of you have things to say, things that can help. I'm just calling out Espy because he happens to be the easiest person to seek top-notch advice from. I did say that everybody does have something to offer and that if we could all be one person, we could probably make an unstoppable force.

Take Espy's precise offensive, Speed's gridiron defense, Goggles' multitude of enigmatic tricks, Trent's solid base, perhaps my knowledge, and...

... Well, you get the idea, I hope. Again, I'm not intentionally leaving anyone out of this, I just want to see that before I retire that we can have a definite layout for everyone to follow so that we can see that Sonic succeeds until the end of time... or whenever the next fighter comes out that has Sonic; whichever happens first ya know.


:093:
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
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hahah hey we dont get any side b invincibility in the air right? just double checking. wouldnt that be cool if spinshot gained slight invincibility from side b? if only...
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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B.A.M.

Smash Lord
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Bambatta
Are you sure about that? I never thought we had invincibility in the air with side b. thats crazy.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Well think of it this way.

Don't you already "hop" into the air when you do Spin Dash? :3

Yeah, a very lame thing to say I know, but trust me on that.

:093:
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
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yea, thats why u can iSDR off the ledge on picto and yi, its the same move still
 

Espy Rose

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Just gave Kinzer the OP and subsequent posts Chis had made.
Pretty sure he'll be able to manage this thread quite effectively.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
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And if I cannot, just let me know that I'm doing a bad job and let someone else take over. :)

Alright, time to get kraken.

:093:
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Uhm, alright, I'm so sorry for the lack of activity as of late. I've had a lot of school up until now and since I've taken ownership; but since I've taken care of every obligation and I'm almost done with school, tournaments, yada yada yada (+ I don't feel like going to sleep), you can expect a somewhat major update by the end of today.

...PST obviously, gives me more time, especially for EC who tend to go to sleep early, they will be asleep by the time I finally get around to fixing everything up.

I'll reserve this post so I can publicize the change-log for this day. It'll be in the OP and in posts thereof obviously but just in case.

:093:
 

Kinzer

Mammy
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Blech, nothing since I've been gone. I'm also such a dirty liar but I'll see if I can alleviate this for now; just before Sonic's 20th anniversary and before I lose the motivation all-together.

One thing I'd like to get out of the way before anything else:

Sonic's Homing Attack locks on at frame 0.

You heard me. It will track an opponent before release. If the opponent was not invincible prior to release, or if Sonic couldn't find anything to lock-on to, he will disregard everything and you get the expected result. Otherwise, it will hunt the opponent down, even if they are invincible during the same frame of release and obviously after.

There you go B.A.M. You said you wanted some stupid Homing Attack frame data, there it is. Now leave me alone and invest your time in other moves which provide more use for their utility.

With that out of the way, let me get the Long overdue (Sonic-specific) Miscellaneous frame data dump incoming.

Sonic takes 6 frames to go airborne from a jump.

Sonic is airborne from a Fullhop for 60 frames, no fastfalling.

From a Fullhop, Sonic can input a fastfall starting on the 35th frame.

Sonic is airborne from a Shorthop for 40 frames, no fastfalling.

From a Shorthop, Sonic can input a fastfall starting on the 27th frame.

Sonic's spotdodge is 25 frames total. Frames 2-20 are invincibility.

Sonic's front & backroll are 31 frames total. Frames 4-19 are invincibility in both cases.

(after a hard landing, otherwise unteched, getting bounced up, being capable of being jab-locked; someone help me come up with something more descriptive/accurate/helpful please.)

The easiest way to ensure that the test dummy falls the way you want him to, for his back facing the floor, have a Sonic U-Throw the test dummy. For otherwise, have a Sonic D-Throw the test dummy. (who knew that D-Throw was good for something besides noob detector?

A standing get-up from his front or back facing the floor is 29 frames total. Frames 1-22 are invincibility.

A front get-up roll with his back facing the ground is 35 frames total. Frames 1-21 are invincibility.

A front get-up roll with his back facing away from the ground is 35 frames total. Frames 1-19 are invincibility.

A retreating get-up roll with his back facing the ground is 35 frames total. Frames 1-22 are invincibility.

A retreating get-up roll with his back facing away from the ground is 35 frames total. Frames 1-24 are invincibility.

In order of what provides the most invincibility for it's duration, a quick tier list which looks like this:

Standing get-up > Retreating roll (faceplant) > Retreating roll (lying) > Front roll (lying) > Front roll (faceplant).

(techs)

A standing tech is 26 frames total. Frames 1-20 are invincibility.

A techroll (front or back) is 40 frames total. Frames 1-20 are invincibility.

A ceiling tech is 26 frames total. Frames 1-17 are invincibility.

(Walltechs)

I feel wall techs, and wall techjumps are interesting and broad enough to warrant their own sub section.

A wall tech takes four frames no matter what. Frame 5 is when an action will go off if in the time you where in the first wall tech animation frames you buffered an input.

Wall techjumps are slightly different. Anytime between frames 1 and 7 exactly, you will do a wall techjump if you made a jump input.

What's interesting though is that if you manage to buffer a jump and an attack at the same time or the attack after the jump, you will attack but instead of dropping down you will carry momentum from a wall jump with the attack.

If you decide not to take any further action after jumping from frames 1-7, you will be able to act on frame 8 from a wall techjump. This can be double-jump canceled.

Walltech invincibility lasts from frames 1-19 For a wall techjump, it lasts from frames 1-15. Invincibility is not carried over.

Ugh, I'll come back tomorrow. I'm so tired, I could only get three hours of sleep and I couldn't go back to sleep. Obviously actually putting this in the guide will come at a later date. I cannot guarantee I will be the one to put it up there, but at the very least I have this much data done.

Tomorrow (by tomorrow I mean later today) I hope to have the rest of the Misc. data figured out, such as ledge options, (ledge) get-up attacks, and Spring Jump. I already think I found one of the most interesting things that will ever befall Homing Attack, so don't hold your breath on that one either.

:093:
 

Kinzer

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... I had that a while ago... Where it went/is now is beyond me, but I remember that at worst it's just a cross-up (0-frame advantage). If they try and do anything else, it would be in Sonic's favor.

Even though I still have yet to find out which characters Sonic can take advantage of those with. Tends to be fastfallers/fatties though, or people with laggy aerial attacks.movement.

:093:
 

Tesh

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are you saying homing attack locks on the moment I press B?
 

Kinzer

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are you saying homing attack locks on the moment I press B?
Even I can't really explain how frame 0 works. Some of it is because I don't know how something like that works myself. If nothing else, there's another example with Akuma in MvC2. I've seen some funny videos with people abusing it, and how I wish there was a guide or an explanation somewhere to give me an idea of where to start.

From what I understand, it can't be the moment you press b. That's frame 1. :S It's one frame before, frame 0.

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B.A.M.

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they do with akuma in mvc ? show it to me! it will give me hints of its utilization. Mann HA is the ****. I be gimpin Larry, Rich and metas with dat. It owns people who get to eager while land camping or who get to premptive when you are rushing them down. and offstage its a funn mind game with wiffed aerials and so forth. its too good .



Oh and Kinzer, please check out some character AD frame data. Coupled with that and their height + fast fall I do believe some characters give us a guaranteed uair. Also the funny thing is, depending on the characters height, some character dont allows us to buffer the uair, only the jump. Otherwise the first hit comes out too soon. kinda funny.


@Espy: you are so right. bthrow at mid percents is sooo ****. especially with that buffered dash.


So i was playing rich the other day and I got to thinking. What does ASC go through? For some reason it went through his purple, I know it takes on AS. It be nice to know what you can exactly challenge.
 

Tesh

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so kinzer, basically if I can lock on when I press B, then people CANT spotdodge it?
 

Kinzer

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so kinzer, basically if I can lock on when I press B, then people CANT spotdodge it?
Well, you do have to consider that if they were invulnerable before, but turn invulnerable the moment after, and you lock-in, you're basically giving them a free punish. It takes time for HA sometimes and whatnot; something frame-data alone will not tell you. Make of it what you will; I'm really just here to get that data, I'm not very good at explaining it or putting it ain an easy to read format.

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B.A.M.

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Kinzer. where the akuma example so we can understand. send a video.

From my understanding of homing attack is that it basically means you cant really AD it, especially in gimp situations. Which is why i think its so good in those scenarios. plus the fact when below someone it aims for their front, dairs usually wiff. HA 4 prez.


EDIT: I want that data too Speed.
 

Kinzer

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Oh yarr, that Akuma example.

I've been trying to look for it all over YT, but I can't find it.

I'll see if it might be in my browsing history.

Don't get your hopes up though. Nevermind everything irrelevant, "Akuma" alone might generate a lot of results, and even just condensing it down to YT.

Edit: Alright, turns out it only went as far back as May. Of course that's because I cleared my history to try and get rid of the excess (porn) off.

Ah. Who am I kidding though? That was back before I gave a damn about what other people thought of me, and I should know better now that I'm eighteen not only is it going to be expected, but this is my computer. I can't be held accountable if anyone stumbles upon anything they shouldn't without my permission then, and I have this tendency to label things now... whew...

Well, if I find it, either by just stumbling upon it randomly, or if it somehow comes up in my recommendations, I'll remember. Could be months before that happens though. Can't believe there's not some sort of archive or database with this even searching on Google, but again it's MvC2; who cares about anyone outside of top-tier?

:093:
 

Kinzer

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BAMRELOADED 3:23 am
have a chance to work on that data good sir

KinzertheBrawler 3:23 am
D'oh.
Right now?

BAMRELOADED 3:23 am
whenever i just remember u said ud have it done soon

KinzertheBrawler 3:24 am
Well then. I'll tell you what, I'm tired now after having been awake for a while. I got college orientation down, and uhm~...
... I have yet to do anything else that is of any signifigance, but at the very least I can work on the cheat sheets when I wake up first thing.

KinzertheBrawler 3:25 am
If you want me to do that.

BAMRELOADED 3:25 am
kinz do what you gotta do bro its all good haha whenever you time im ready
thats fine by me
as long as you can get your ish done
i appreciate the work

KinzertheBrawler 3:26 am
It's no problem. I honestly should've had it done earlier but I don't seem to ever get things done when I tell myself I will.
But at least now that you've said it a second time I have more incentive, woosh.

BAMRELOADED 3:26 am
hahah sounds bueno

KinzertheBrawler 3:27 am
Well then, please sleep well.

BAMRELOADED 3:27 am
bthrow fthrow frame advantage and what uthrow has to decayed to that uthrow utilt is a combo
hahha o im not gonna be sleeping bro
hahaha

KinzertheBrawler 3:27 am
... O_O Well alright, if you say so.

BAMRELOADED 3:28 am
and just for my own personal reasons lol could u find the frame advantage on tipper dtilt?
im trying to figure something out
thatd be cool too
again i appreicate all this kinz

KinzertheBrawler 3:29 am
Tipper DTilt huh? The one that sends them away from us?

BAMRELOADED 3:29 am
yeah
regular dtilt is cool
we virtually get a free frame trap

BAMRELOADED 3:29 am
but i might have something special for tipper dtilt

KinzertheBrawler 3:29 am
Alright, that's a bit strange, but I don't suppose it can be too hard. Anything in specific or are you going to be happy with whatever I give you (as in, do you care if I just get it for 0%)?

BAMRELOADED 3:30 am
well it goes through different knock backs
it has that sliding knock back starting at around 33-35 i think
then starts to knock down at 65-75
so just for both of those knockbacks

KinzertheBrawler 3:32 am
... I suppose I'll see what I can do. You'll have to excuse me though, from what I've tested so far, this is a rather tedious thing to figure out because not all characters have the same dis/advantages. If it comes to it, I can give you one figure for each, but I wouldn't expect anything else for a long time. I'm just hoping it's not as complicated as i'm making it out to be for every case.
Yeeeeeee~! *stretch.*
Anyway, I'm gonna head for bed. I'll keep this window open just so I don't forget.

BAMRELOADED 3:33 am
oh yeah just test it on on D3 and mario lol
the other characters is fine
i can do the rest assuming it works out as planned
thanks again Kinzer!!!!!

KinzertheBrawler 3:34 am
Uhm... okay, D3 and Mario. I won't ask why, I am guessing you can tell me your master plan once I deal with my end.

BAMRELOADED 3:34 am
i will haha

BAMRELOADED is available 10:21am
bamreloaded 10:34 am
KINZAAAAA

BAMRELOADED is available 4:52pm
bamreloaded 7:05 pm
kinz kinz were you able to check out dat data

KinzertheBrawler 7:09 pm
;~;

I forgot I had to go out with my cousin to hang out and meet a friend of his. I suppose now though that I'm home and not doing anything else I can get it out of the way.
I'll hook up my Wii now.
... no wait it already is.
Apparently.
So let me just get started.

KinzertheBrawler 7:18 pm
-4, +8, + 15.
Just uhm... some quick figures about that tipper DTilt on D3, when it's fresh, at zero, thirty, and seventy percent respectively.
I was... just waiting to see when the shield came up too, I didn't try to use any DI, or see if D3 could attack, airdodge, or double jump either. I'll see if that changes anything now.


I need this for referential.

With the way Tipper DTilt is acting right now, I may just very well get this for the entire cast. He logged off before I could tell him, but... those figures are absolute assuming DTilt is fresh, and the opponent doesn't apply any DI.

Yeah yeah double post, tell me why I'm the only one around here is actually any bit interested in getting this info?

Well no that,s a lie, BAM was the one who told me to find this, so props to him.

But am I the only one here who knows how to work debug mode? Or the only one willing? Either way, give me... a couple of hours, I'm going to update this post periodically with any updates.

'Kay, this is going to be a big mess until I can update this, and liek I said I'm just getting this as I go, so blah.

F-Throw with Meta Knight fresh and @ 0% is +3, whether you make him airdodge, double-jump, or aerial attack.

BAMRELOADED 7:36 pm
keep that data coming my mnan
are u testin the throws now?

KinzertheBrawler 7:39 pm
Not quite.
Well sort of.
Right now I can tell you that Sonic has a +3 advantage against Meta Knight on F-Throw at 0%.
I've tried airdodging, double-jumping, and attacking, they all allow him to attack at the same time.

KinzertheBrawler 7:42 pm
I haven't gotten Mario yet though.
And you've got me interested. If Sonicg et's this kind of figure, then maybe there's some good from this.

BAMRELOADED 7:43 pm
how about later %s like mids?
those are the percents im most interest in for the throws

KinzertheBrawler 7:44 pm
If I didn't know better, it's the same. The only variable is knockback.
But if you really want, I'll try again, thoguh this time I'll put MK at uhm...
... 100%, I just need a huge difference to see if it's true or not.

BAMRELOADED 7:44 pm
it has to be

KinzertheBrawler 7:54 pm
+21, -1, -13.
Okay, so let me explain that really quick.\
This is: Sonic's F-Throw on Meta Knight (fresh) at 100%.
+21 is if Meta Knight tries to double-jump as soon as he can.
-1 is if Meta Knight uses an aerial.
-13 is if he airdodges.
The last one is best left to discretion, being that when you airdodge, you can't do anything else except either land or wait for the animation to finish. You're only invincible for so long and yada yada yada.
So you're right... it's... different at a higher percent.
For the better or worse? I can't say, I don't know what you need the data for or why.


BAMRELOADED 7:49 pm
im sorry kinzer but i got one more question since this has been bugging me a lot. do we get any frame advantage if a ASC SC is placed properly on shield? im tired of getting grab right after
even when buffered it seems which sucks

KinzertheBrawler 8:13 pm
Uhm, okay.
I hope this is right, but I think Sonic has a +1 advantage assuming he lands one frame after he hits the shield at his lowest.
Actually, it may very well even be +2, but I wouldn't go that far since I'm not sure if you can grab before you even go to shield, but anyway.
That's probably going to be your best case scenario. You can never guarantee you'll have the perfect spacing, their shield healthy and unangled, and the character always being Mario. :-\


I finally figured out a way to properly get shield dis/advantages, so I think this seems a bit more realistic than the +8 I gave a while back. I'm sorry about that.

:093:
 

Tesh

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Ah, this guide..... if you need videos or pictures or stuff let me know Kinzer. Might wanna change the title of you want help with some part of this. I think on this current subject I might be able to help you find alot of videos showing some odd things about his specials.
 

Kinzer

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Uhm, let's see, pictures...

If you want to help out, I'm missing Spin Charge and Spin Dash, and the throws.

As for stage-specific stuff, I would someday like to compile a list of places where it's possible to do iSDR as we know today.

So far I've found it on Picto, YI, Pirate Ship, Delfino, Frigate, CAstle Siege, PS1, etc.

If you actually did that, that'd be wonderful.

I know I've been so lazy in terms of updating this guide, ugh. I'm embarrassed.

Videos i may eventually record myself, once I can figure out how to do editing and make debug more useful, or somehow find a way to emulate Brawl on the computer to do slow-downs when necessary or to easily recreate situations that would otherwise be difficult.

:093:
 

Life

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iSDR:

Rainbow Cruise: Right side of the boat, the pendulum (depending on how steep it is at any given moment), and the... mound, I guess, on the scrolling-right section. Also, probably the boat as it's falling, but this is relatively useless.
PS2: Ground transformation's slope near the middle.
YIB: The sides.
Delfino: The Shine tower. Possibly others I've forgotten, as it's late.
PS1: Windmill, depending on its tilt; possibly parts of the Rock transformation.
Frigate/CS: We have iSDR here?

Pirate Ship: The ship, when it's tilted high due to the rock appearing.
Pictochat: The sides. Not sure about transformations. Pretty sure you can do it on the diagonal line, at least.
Pipes: All the slopes.

All off the top of my head. Could be more.

Also, when exactly is the invincibility in Spin Dash? The old frame thread says four through six, is that accurate?
 

Tesh

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If we want it to be extensive, I could get started with pictures. I kind of wanted to make a "camper's guide" for Sonic.
 

Exceladon City

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iSDR:

Rainbow Cruise: Right side of the boat, the pendulum (depending on how steep it is at any given moment), and the... mound, I guess, on the scrolling-right section. Also, probably the boat as it's falling, but this is relatively useless.
PS2: Ground transformation's slope near the middle.
YIB: The sides.
Delfino: The Shine tower. Possibly others I've forgotten, as it's late.
PS1: Windmill, depending on its tilt; possibly parts of the Rock transformation.
Frigate/CS: We have iSDR here?

Pirate Ship: The ship, when it's tilted high due to the rock appearing.
Pictochat: The sides. Not sure about transformations. Pretty sure you can do it on the diagonal line, at least.
Pipes: All the slopes.

All off the top of my head. Could be more.

Also, when exactly is the invincibility in Spin Dash? The old frame thread says four through six, is that accurate?
You can ISDR on:

Brinstar platforms
Forest transformation of PS1
Several drawings on Picto
Sandbanks on Delfino
 

Kinzer

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Tesh

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Yea, the "FD on water" part has slopes for this, but its not as easy to setup, since u cant just do it at the very edge like on picto/yi:b.

You guys are forgetting iSDR edgeguarding (one of my favorite things about ps1) by iSDRing on the lips of the edges. Since aerials can't clash with it, its kind of cool and u can footstool after.


1:05 in this video
 
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