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The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581


Since the Sonic guide and tech guide are are old and outdated, this thread will contain all their information and more. The Sonic boards have plenty of experienced mains, of which I hope can contribute to this thread. Even if you think that you're not one of them, don't worry. Anyone can contribute to this thread in one shape or form. You are also encouraged to keep up with this thread, as information that has been posted by previous members may not be in the fully updated OP (Original Post).


Things needed:
  • A cool name for the guide :D
  • Ideas
  • Effort
  • Motivation
  • Inspiration
  • Passion
  • Patience
  • Contributors



Table of Contents


I. Introduction
II. Acronyms & Terminology
III. Overview
IV. Pros and Cons
V. Moveset analysis
VI. Basics on playing Sonic
VII. Advanced techniques
VIII. Useful links and videos




I. Introduction


Welcome to the ultimate compendium of Sonic the Hedgehog in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. If you're reading this, you've already taken a huge leap towards becoming the next best Sonic player.

There have been a lot of arguments about Sonic being one of the worst characters in this game. Whether any of that still holds any water is no longer up for debate as a number of people have gone out of their way to prove otherwise, and slowly but surely many have seen that Sonic is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands. Do not get the wrong idea however, as it is a long and grueling road, and the difficulty; while never anything short of challenging, can vary on the environment.

Many of the players are still finding ways to improve themselves, as Sonic players and as players in general. Meaning that there are many ways to play Sonic, achieve success, and the ceiling of perfection for Sonic is very high and difficult to reach. So be sure to experiment a little bit. Ask for help when you get stuck, and draw upon your own conclusions after you have done enough playing and tinkering around.

Now you, the reader, are the new generation. By all means, please feel welcomed, as now it is a lot easier to find all the information you could want in order to become the next speed demon. There is a lot of potential in Sonic, and moreso in you; never forget that. If you have any inquiries as a player or anything regarding Sonic and the way he handles his opponents then you are also in the right place. Allow the community to help you in overcoming your problems. We are all family here, so all we want is to see each other grow and prosper.





II. Acronyms & Terminology


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576

For a more general/complete directory of all the meanings of smash terms accompanied with terminology, this is a great resource.

Not all of the terminology may apply to things specific to gameplay, but if you are going to be reading things besides this guide on the forum this will be good to know.



Sonic specific:

HA - Homing Attack
SD - Spin Dash
SC - Spin Charge / Shield Cancel
ASC - Aerial Spin Charge
(V)SDJ - (Vertical) Spin Dash Jump
(i)SDR - (invincible) Spin Dash Roll

General (condensed):

Nair - Neutral Air
Fair - Forward Air
Uair - Up Air
Bair - Back Air
Dair - Down Air

FTilt - Forward Tilt
dFTilt - Down-Angled Forward Tilt
uFTilt - Up-Angled Forward Tilt
DTilt - Down Tilt
UTilt - Up Tilt

FSmash - Forward Smash
dFSmash - Down-Angled Forward Smash
uFSmash - Up-Angled Forward Smash
DSmash - Down Smash
USmash - Up Smash

FThrow - Forward Throw
UThrow - Up Throw
BThrow- Back Throw
DThrow - Down throw

DA - Dash Attack

SS - Stutterstep / Screech Stop
SH - Short Hop
OOS - Out Of Shield (/ State [Irrelevant to gameplay.])
DD(P) - Dash Dance (Pivot)
FF - Fast Fall / Fast Faller(s)
MC - Momentum Cancel

PS - Perfect / Power Shield

AD - Airdodge
SD - Spot Dodge / Suicidal Death

DAC(US) - Dash Attack Cancel(ed Up Smash)




III. Overview

...

[Note that every paragraph/sentence/disclaimer/etc. shall be inbetween brackets ([]). They are not part of the main guide nor will they be in the finalized version (should that ever come), they are merely notes for contributors to look at and fix or criticize. Read them if you would like to help out or get more data on certain things despite the structure; or lack thereof for the time they are up.]

[For future reference, this section will talk about Sonic as a character in whole and how he is performing in the competitive metagame as of late. I may or may edit this note out in later version of this guide but for now criticism/input is appreciate]

Welcome to the Overview! Here you will get a better idea of who Sonic is and how he's doing overall in the competitive Brawl metagame.

As of the beginning of 2012, the metagame for Sonic looking okay. Some of the people, both old and new school, are still hanging in there as Brawl's 4 year anniversary is coming, and Sonic has been keeping up. In some places he is even outpacing other characters within or above his tier. Only time will tell if the Sonic mainers will stick around.

Thanks to the very talented community, Sonic has established a somewhat commanding presence in places where he is represented. It is surprising to understand that the players behind the character still have room for improvement, and that the our little blue little has yet to reach his pinnacle because of it.

On first look, it is difficult to understand how or why Sonic has come as far as he has. His attacks have very little range, and with very little power to boot. A character who thrives on attrition, Sonic is nothing short of demanding in both the technical and mental aspect. The player must accept that a lot of work must be invested to see any reward. In order to overcome the shortcomings that will never be allocated for (range, kill power) and the obstacles that stand tall in front of him (his opponents), it is commonplace that the players must embrace those weaknesses and utilize his strengths and maximum output potential. Being creative and willing to adapting is a must.

To this day, it could be argued that Sonic by himself is not fit for competitive play. The ones who advocate for his success will mention that even after much improvement the struggles do not subside. With enough effort, it seems, Sonic presents the players with every tool they need to overcome whatever challenge they face. To truly appreciate or downplay Sonic, one must take the time to work with Sonic and find out for themselves whether or not Sonic's options in particular are fit for them or if Sonic himself can compete. The only thing people seem to agree on to this day is that it's a lot of work and it's certainly not for everyone.




IV. Pros and Cons


Pros


  • Very high mobility on stage
  • Adaptive approaches
  • One of the best recoveries in the game
  • Good at gimping certain characters
  • Mid-weight with a good momentum cancel
  • 6th fastest aerial speed
  • Can build damage quickly
  • Able to punish easily, frequently, and with emphasis under the right conditions


Cons


  • Kill set ups are not easy
  • Average priority
  • Hard to approach safely
  • Multi-hit attacks are DIable
  • Poor grab range
  • Aerial game is weaker than ground



V. Moveset Analysis

Somethings you should know about all attacks!

Every move in this game gets weaker the more times you connect with them.

Have you ever gone into multi-player mode and used the same attack again and again? Have you noticed that each time it deals less damage? Perhaps not because the opponent still keeps the same percents of course, but if you keep having the opponent kill themselves, come back, and get hit by the same attack again you'll notice it then. Not only does the attack deal damage, but it also deals less knockback on an opponent that has the same percent.

Let's put it this way, you have an opponent at 100%. Say for example, you use your Forward Smash on him. It deals 14% uncharged the first time and kills the opponent from the side. Do it again and now not only does it not deal 14% damage, but now the opponent lives!

Of course that's just a picture to help get the idea across. This is not actually true and the information is still vague, not mentioning who the character was or what stage it was on or whatever, but the fact remains that you need to be conscious of what attacks you use. Understand?


On that same note, there is a tally that the game keeps track of concerning decayed moves!

Yep, every nine attacks are logged in this list. The same attack can deal maximum damage, have full knockback power, with absolutely no tallies. Likewise it can be decayed ten times and have that x10 negative penalty to it.

Ten is your magic number. If you have connected with a move before and now wish to completely refresh it, you will have to avoid using that move nine more times.


[collapse="Two visual examples:"]
[collapse="Start of the match/respawn"]
1. #Nothing
2. #Nothing
3. #Nothing
4. #Nothing
5. #Nothing
6. #Nothing
7. #Nothing
8. #Nothing
9. #Nothing

**
This is self-explanatory.

Everytime you recover from having been killed, your movelist is refreshed.
**



1. #Grab Attack
2. #Grab Attack
3. #Grab Attack
4. #Nothing
5. #Nothing
6. #Nothing
7. #Nothing
8. #Nothing
9. #Nothing

**
Sonic likely landed a grab. Don't ask why the opponent hasn't broken away from it yet.
**


[/collapse]

[collapse="Mid-Round (separate variant)"]
1. #Side Special
2. #Up Attack
3. #Up Toss
4. #Grab Attack
5. #Down Attack
6. #Nothing
7. #Nothing
8. #Nothing
9. #Nothing

**
Sonic got a psuedo-string going as you can see. Down Tilt to a successful grab, which led to an UThrow. From there, he followed up with an Uair, and to finish it off he read the opponent's landing and punished with a SpinDash Hop.
**



1. #Grab Attack
2. #Grab Attack
3. #Grab Attack
4. #Side Special
5. #Up Attack
6. #Up Toss
7. #Grab Attack
8. #Down Attack
9. #Nothing

**
Sonic was in a doubles match, went through with the SpinDash Hop finisher, SDR'd off the platform above and Shield-Canceled his Aerial Spin Charge on the platform below, successfully grabbed the other opponent OOS, and and pummeling him to put on the damage.

By the way, there aren't seperate tallies for different opponents/destructible objects. It only keeps track of your character and what he's done.
**


[/collapse]

[collapse="Mid-Round (combined variant)"]
1. #Airborne Forward Attack
2. #Down Special
3. #Down Special
4. #Down Special
5. #Down Special
6. #Down Special
7. #Nothing
8. #Nothing
9. #Nothing

**
His opponent either had poor DI, has a huge hurtbox, or a combination of both. This allowed Sonic to get 3 multiple hits from Aerial Spin Charge, land with a Spin Dash Roll, get the hit from the Spin Dash Jump, and finish off with a Fair.

By the way, Multiple hits of ASC do count as separate hits, and most of Sonic's attacks that involve Spin Dash or Spin Charge are the same tally. This will be further explained in the Special Moves section.
**



1. #Grab Attack
2. #Grab Attack
3. #Grab Attack
4. #Airborne Forward Attack
5. #Down Special
6. #Down Special
7. #Down Special
8. #Down Special
9. #Down Special

**
Sonic got to the other side of the stage quick enough to chase after his opponent with his trademark speed. Likely having been surprised by that, the opponent was not expecting or prepared to get grabbed and is now facing the consequences. Every hit from here on out will knock out the "#Down Special" tally from the movelist and refresh it, making them stronger at the cost of the new tallies.
**


[/collapse]

[collapse="End-Game"]
1. #Grab Attack
2. #Grab Attack
3. #Aerial Attack
4. #Aerial Attack
5. #Forward Toss
6. #Grab Attack
7. #Grab Attack
8. #Grab Attack
9. #Forward Attack

**
As you can see here, Sonic landed a Tilt quite a while back. The game hasn't forgotten. Sonic, once again with his agility, managed to nab the opponent, and pummel him three times before releasing him with a F-Throw. Sonic landed a Nair but unfortunately he got the weaker hit and the opponent survived. Sonic was able to get the attack to come out faster again the next time around but sadly since the move was decayed that didn't kill his opponent either. He was later able to land one more grab and as you can predict, he's going to refresh his movelist by a bit and rack up enough damage for anything (save for another Nair) to be a killing blow or send the opponent far enough offstage for a gimp attempt.
**



1. #Grab Attack
2. #Grab Attack
3. #Grab Attack
4. #Grab Attack
5. #Grab Attack
6. #Aerial Attack
7. #Aerial Attack
8. #Forward Toss
9. #Grab Attack

**
Sonic's on the verge of refreshing his F-Throw and his Neutral Air(s).

By the way, the same move has the same tally no matter when you hit. Weak Nair and Strong Nair still count as "Aerial Attack."
**

[/collapse]
[/collapse]


In all of the scenarios above, the game has registered a movelist for #Sonic. For a detailed description of the moveset in question, read the
spoiler
tags marked from beginning to end with asterisks (*). Provided is also a "what-if" where the next three tabs in the movelist were to be Sonic's pummel (#Grab Attack). The newest additions are at the top, and the older tabs get pushed down, and eventually get taken off/readded accordingly.

Do note: Attacks that don't connect with anything are not counted, item tosses are tallied despite Sonic himself not being able to conjure his own items or items not being "a part of him," and multi-hit moves do not count for anymore than one tally for their input.

Separate, individual notes can be found in the spoilers.



All damage logs assume that the attack is fresh.

All frame data is true in the case that attack goes uninterrupted and is not elongated via connecting with a hurtbox or a destructible object.

A more detailed list of decays and frame data exceptions and how it affects the attacks will hopefully be put up at a later date.

Item play will hopefully be put up at a later date.








[collapse="The Attacks"]
  • Ground moves



Jab


Damage: 2%-2%-3% (7%)
Range: Short
Frame data:

1st jab comes out on frame 3, lasts 19 frames.
Jab 2 comes out on frame 10 if started after jab 1 (otherwise it takes 8 frames for the first active hitbox of jab 2 to come up after Jab 1's first active hitbox). It lasts 21 frames.
3rd jab comes out on frame 4, First active hitbox also comes out 10 frames after Jab 2's first active hitbox. 30 frames total.
[I need to reword this pamphlet. It is difficult, if not impossible to understand.]




Description: A fairly weak jab combo. The first jab is Sonic's quickest move, coming out in 3 frames; therefore, it can be used to interrupt slower moves and prevent them from hitting you if you are right on top of your opponent. The jab is a good "GTFO!" move; earning you some space when you're cornered.

You are likely to get punished if the jab combo is shielded due to its lag.

At low percentages if an opponent is between you and a wall you can trap them by using the jab combo repeatedly. Smash DI will only let them break out of it sooner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

A jab can also lock the opponent in the hard fall animation, where they’re left with only one option, forced get-up. This is explained further in the jab lock section under "Advanced Techniques."

Holding the attack button makes Sonic repeat his 1st jab until he hits something or the button is released. A useful way of punishing spotdodge spammers. It also ensures that if the first two jabs connect that the succeeding follow-up attacks will actually connect, as sometimes even being one frame too slow on the button mashing can allow the opponent to defend or counterattack.

FTilt is usually recommended over the jab combo for your main attack in close up encounters due to its greater knock back, damage and range.

[That last sentence I feel is out of place. Someone tell me if I should put it elsewhere or get rid of it altogether.]




  • Tilts


Down Tilt


Damage: 6%
Range: Medium
Frame data:

First active hitbox: 6
Hitbox duration: 6-9
Total duration: 27




Description: A single sweep with average range and shield-stabbing potential if the enemies shield is low or angled improperly. A decent poke as well.

Down Tilt has two different knockback angles for different parts of the attack. At maximum range where only the tip of Sonic's shoe connects, the move sends the opponent at a more horizontal angle, and has a low probability to trip. At mid range where Sonic's knee is; all the way up to his body, the attack pops the enemy up.

At low %, follow ups from a DTilt exist. Depending on how the opponent reacts, and to name a few, we have: DTilt-DTilt, DTilt-jab, DTilt-grab, DTilt-FTilt, DTilt-DA and DTilt-UTilt. Sonic's most reliable "combo initiator" is best used at low % and especially on fast-fallers who have trouble dealing with the DTilt-DTilt repeat chain.

In the case of the fastfallers, some of the follow-ups true combo. The specific characters are:

  • Fox
  • Falco
  • Wolf
  • Captain Falcon
  • Sheik


[I will grab the exact frame data and at some of the percentages at a later date. For now, the confirmed true follow-ups on the fastfallers are DTilt to Jab.]




Forward Tilt


Damage: Sonic's body up to his knees - 4%. Sonic’s shoes & socks - 7%. Combined is 11%.
Range: Good
Frame data:

(Torso hitbox) First active hitbox at frame 6
(Leg hitbox) First active hitbox at frame 8
Both end on frame 11
[I need to get the cooldown lag.]




Description: FTilt has abnormally decent shield poking potential when used close up thanks to how low it hits in comparison to many things, and the double-hitbox. It is also thanks to said double-hitbox that this move sometimes catches opponents off guard. If that wasn't enough, it also helps that the added freeze-frames from the first hitboz contribute by elongating the the attack and delaying the second hitbox.

It also possible to angle FTilt higher or lower, which can also contribute to it's shieldstabbing ability.

It lacks the coming out speed of the jab but makes up for it with superior range and damage making it the better option up close. It can be used for spacing although being out classed by Bair.


[Again this sentence just seems out of place.]

FTilt can be chained from low knock back moves at low percentages. Simple follow-ups such as DTilt and the weak hit box of Nair can work.

It is sometimes possible to hit with the torso hitbox only and not connect with the legs doing only 4%.




Up Tilt


Damage: 3, 4, 7% respectively. (14% total)
Range: Medium. It's vertical range is superior to it's horizontal range.
Frame data:

1st hit: frame 7
2nd hit: frame 8 (duration: 8-9)
3rd hit: frame 18 (duration: 18-20)
Lasts 49 frames




Description: A double kick which oddly hits 3 times. It has poor horizontal range, but decent vertical range making it a somewhat useful anti-air attack.

Up tilt is let down by its lag after using the move. It doesn’t kill until the opponents get into the very high percentages. If you find yourself struggling to kill with other moves due to their decay, this move will be a fine substitute.

It’s really a move which fits little niches like being a follow up for Dtilt at low percentages or a follow up from an up throw 0% on some characters with improper DI. It is worth noting that this move makes for a wonderful punish from a predictable landing, or a finisher when you have decided that you've made enough attempts to juggle the opponent in the air. It can also reach some platforms and poke opponents up there from below. The platform tidbit is especially true if their shield is so drained that even a proper tilt won't cover the tiny hitbox UTilt covers on the platform. It also makes a decent, albeit unorthodox, platform techchase move.




  • Aerials



Neutral Air


Damage: Strong hitbox (11%), medium hitbox (8%), weak hitbox (5%)
Range: Short
Frame data:

Frames 1-5 are start-up.
Frames 6-9 are the strong hitbox.
Frames 10-19 are the medium hitbox.
Frames 20-38 are the weak hitbox.
Frames 39-49 are cooldown lag assuming you don't land on the ground before then.
Nair has 12 frames of landing lag assuming you do land on the ground before it can finish its animation.




Description: A mixed bag in terms of what the attack does, yet its shrinking hurtbox and very long duration with short landing lag make it a situational attack which can prove useful. It lacks the good disjoint like Fair, Bair and Uair have. This limits it in hitting reliability outside of Spindash combos. The last hitbox allows you to chain moves from it at very low percentages.

Nair is a decent sex kick for beating airdodges and spot dodges if you read your opponent correctly. It out lasts spot dodges because the hit box is out for so long and even if you land the move has so little lag, allowing you to act sooner than would appear. Decent for frame trapping those who commit.

It has advantages over other attacks. For example, its quick release at 5 frames and single hit prevent SDI escapes which plague Bair and Fair respectively. Nair is likely to be doing more damage fresh than other attacks due to how infrequent the attack is used directly, which in turn does more damage than constantly using the other attacks. It’s a situational kill move of sorts at very high percentages comparable to UTilt, UThrow and fresh Dair.

As mentioned earlier, it can combo from a Spindash. To give some examples: in case Fair is stale or you find that your opponent SDI’s it too often, or should your opponent DI your SDJ in a certain direction and Bair will not connect in time. It's pretty surprising how often it hits. The move also functions as a set up for a jab lock or tech chase when hitting an airborne opponent with the third hitbox due to its very low angle and knockback, sending the enemy into the stage often before they can tech. Out of a footstool, this is guaranteed.

[I would like that last part about the jab-locking to be elaborated somehow. I have my doubts as to whether or not it truly works too.]




Up Air


Damage: 3% first hit, 6% second hit, 9% total.
Range: Good horizontally, Great vertically.
Frame Data:

Frames 1-4 are start-up.
Frames 5-7 are the first hit.
The time between first hit and second is frames 8-13.
Frames 14-18 are the second hit.
Frames 19-39 are cooldown lag assuming don't land on the ground before the animation is finished.
Uair has 21 Frames of landing lag Assuming you do land on the ground before it can finish its animation.




Description: Up air is probably the most versatile of Sonic's aerials. It's tied with Fair for the fastest aerial Sonic has. The range both horizontally and vertically is deceptive as if switching the roles of Bair wherein Bair is absurdly far-reaching horizontally but also tricky vertical range. The attack itself sets up for a myriad of possibilities.

When Sonic's jab is too short-ranged, when Sonic's grab is not a brilliant idea, when Sonic's down and forward tilts are too slow to punish or counterattack out of shield, up air is the next best bet.

The first hit covers as much, if not slightly more range than Sonic's jab horizontally, and the second hit is disjointed enough to beat just about most other characters attacks above with precise timing. Uair can be used to pressure an opponent on a platform; and is quick and mobile enough to avoid most counterattacks. With Sonic's speed and mobility, it makes for a great attack to use in the hopes of chasing or trapping an opponent.

A good mix-up option for every now and then is to hit an opponent with the first hit of up air, but land just before the second hit comes out. Depending on how the opponent reacts, it could set up for some follow-up attacks. Do note however that none are outright guaranteed.

On that note, Uair autocancels if used immediately from a shorthop. That means you can act as soon as you land. You can protect your sides and above you and still be fairly mobile.




Back Air


Damage: 13% initially, 9% afterwards
Range: Great
Frame data:

Frames 1-12 are start-up.
Frames 13 and 14 are the strong hit.
Frames 15-18 are the weak-hit.
Ends normally on frame 37. 27 if you get the hard landing and let it stay out for all 6 frames the hitbox is active.




Description: Sonic's most reliable kill move when the enemy is not vulnerable to either forward or down smash to punish landing lag. Bair is also one of Sonic's best overall attacks.

Although slow by aerial standards, Bair does good damage with great range, a noticeable disjoint in front of his foot and has considerable knockback with a decent angle. There is even a hitbox on Sonic's body.

Some great features of this move is its safety on block when properly spaced while moving away from the opponent, its ability to be comboed into and from itself at low %'s.

Sonic's Bair would be a bad move on any other character; it is greatly influenced by his mobility as recovering opponents must deal with the fact that Sonic can and will harass them far off-stage. At a time when the opponent's options reduce to one and Sonic is far offstage preparing to react to their only option. Bair is solid against some characters.

On stage it remains a great spacing tool with enough range to solidly beat most attacks when spaced properly and will net KO's from the stage from time to time.




Forward Air


Damage: Varies by positioning. Sonic's upper body deals more damage than his lower body. 14% if all goes according to plan.
Range: Medium
Frame data:

Frames 1-4 are start-up.
First hit and first active hitbox is frame 5.
Frame 6 is a deadzone.
Second hit hitbox is frame 7.
Frame 8 is a deadzone.
Third hit hitbox is frame 9.
Frame 10 is a deadzone.
Fourth hit hitbox is frame 11.
Frame 12 is a deadzone.
Fifth hit hitbox is frame 13.
Frame 14 is a deadzone.
Sixth and final hit hitbox is frame 15.
Frames 16-35 are all cooldown lag assuming you do not land before the animation is finished.
Sonic suffers 30 frames of landing lag.




Description: A simple, moderately high damaging aerial attack which is hindered by its poor initial range and severe landing lag. One of Sonic's quickest overall attacks to come out and very fast by aerial standards: clocking at only 5 frames. Sonic aligns himself parallel to the ground and spins his body in a multi-hit attack, finishing with decent knockback.

The attack does 14% fresh under the condition that every hit connects and the opponent is hit by the upper body. This sends the opponent and leaves them in a great spot for Sonic as they are close enough to be followed up but not far enough such that they have enough time to choose a safe landing place at a relatively low percent. Otherwise if the opponent is hit from behind with the final hitbox, it sends them behind Sonic. This... sometimes does the opponent a favor as opposed to being more of a hindrance. You would do best to make sure that you hit with the proper hitbox depending on what the situation calls for. That does mean however that you will rarely get the maximum damage you can get.

The benefits of being a high-damaging, multi-hit attack allow it to occasionally beat poorly timed dodging and tear away at shields. However the downsides are of course the ability to SDI out of it. Getting every hit to actually connect is difficult on small opponents, and you may even be punished if it hits but the enemy escapes the succeeding hitboxes. Hitting an opponent with all attacks and the right parts is not something you can control 100% of the time either.

Despite this, if the opportunity arises this attack should be used when a punish is guaranteed, or a shield is low and a poke is the consequence of that risk taken thanks to its considerable shield stabbing potential. Don't forget that if the attack connects it will only make the attack longer and some opponent might be caught off guard.

Easily Sonic's highest damage-per-frame attack from start to finish.




Down Air


Damage: 7% first, initial hitbox, 6% lingering, second hitbox.
Range: Short in respect to Sonic's hurtbox
Frame data:

Frames 1-15 are all start-up.
Frames 16-22 are the first hitbox.
Frames 23-37 are the second hitbox.
Frames 38-43 you are stuck in the animation.
On frame 39, you can auto-cancel Dair. More likely than not you'll get the fast-fall landing lag (4 frames), since this game registers Down + Attack as a fastfall even though you did not mean to fastfall but rather Dair. This holds true no matter how lightly you tap or hold down on the D-Pad and can still make it come out as Dair rather than Nair. Same goes for down on the C-Stick.
30 frames of landing lag assuming you do land before you can auto-cancel the attack.




Description: Dair has a slow start-up, however its fast aerial movement compensates. Its start up is useful in throwing off characters such as Snake which try to land camp you thanks to its initial stall-then-fall properties.

The quick descent is useful when you’re at the top of the screen and need to get back down quickly. It auto-cancels from about the same height as a full Spring Jump, so you can avoid the lag that usually accompanies it if you use the move at a certain height. Using it from small heights is not advisable as there's a lot of lag if you reach the ground before the move is finished, however it is worth mentioning that when you have no other option than to land in a certain place, the different timing may sometimes throw off opponents who were expecting you to land sooner or at another time and safely counterattack them.

A bad habit for a lot of Sonics is the Spring Jump>Dair combination. It's really predictable and punishable unless the opponent is far away.

There are two stages to this move. The first part is at the start when Sonic is followed by a blue aura. If Dair hits an airborne opponent in this stage they’ll be sent more horizontally. Hence this can be used in gimping characters off stage for those with good timing. After that initial stage, Sonic will lose his aura. At this point Dair will send your opponent upwards. Careful about accidentally committing suicide over the stages' land boundaries and diving into the blastzones.

Here's a good visual tool in applying Dair’s semi-spike:


[Someone get on this, I can't take good pictures.]




  • Smashes



Forward Smash


Damage: 14% uncharged, 20% charged
Range: Great
Frame data:

[To be filled out at another date.]



Description: Sonic's most damaging move percentage wise and also his strongest kill option. You can angle this attack up or down slightly to change where the hitbox is as well as the trajectory.

You may find that it’s difficult to actually land the move due to its moderately lengthy start time so be warned that a fair amount of kills with this move come from punishing mistakes or hard reads.

In order to get the most out of its killing ability, keep it fresh, use it just to KO your opponent when they’re at a high percentage and avoid using it for general damage purposes. If you would rather use it's normally undecayed damage to punish, you will find yourself killing the opponent more often with Sonic's other attacks in his arsenal and sacrifice overall committed utilization for more overall variety.

Despite its long charge up time the actual punch comes out surprisingly fast, helpful if you’ve charged Fsmash after having read an opponent correctly.

Its reasonably large disjoint allows it to have priority over other moves such as Metaknight’s tornado if spaced and timed correctly. When performing the Fsmash, Sonic leans backwards then takes a step further. This property makes the range of Fsmash quite deceptive leading people to misjudgement. Furthermore it can be stutterstepped forwards in three various degrees and even shutterstepped backwards. The combination of these two things is useful for spacing.

It may be Sonics’ strongest kill move, but the attack leaves much to be desired. Use with caution.




Down Smash


Damage:
Un charged ~ 12% - Back: 9%
Fully charged ~ 16% - Back: 12%
Range: Medium in respect to Sonic's position. Good overall.
Frame data:

Frames 1-6 are start-up.
Frame 17 is the first active hitbox.
Frames 17-37 have a hitbox.
Lasts 57 frames in total.




Description: 3 distinct strengths with the attack having less knockback as the attack progresses. The 4th reeling animation has no hitbox.

Great move to punish landing lag and can send the enemy very low if they DI incorrectly which isn't unlikely when used to punish spotdodges.

Very punishable on block and if the weaker hits connect at very low %, is punishable if it hits. The shield pushback only helps with the issue somewhat. DSmash also only hits one opponent once, so if the opponent is quick and manages to block the initial strength of DSmash, brace yourself...

If used while standing on an edge or facing a wall, Sonic will be pushed back further onto the stage during the animation. A situational but effective move, its start up and punishability means it should not be used when a tilt or fsmash would work.

DSmash is Sonic's second strongest kill option in terms of raw strength.




Up Smash


Damage:
Range: Good in respect to Sonic's hurtbox
Frame data:

[To be filled out at another date.]



Description: Hard to apply as regularly as Sonics other moves due to its lengthy start up and its being outclassed as an out of shield option by Uair and Fair.

It initially has invincibility, but by the time Sonic is at his peak height during the up smash it’ll be gone. When you catch someone in an Up smash, they may not receive the full (uncharged) 9%. Up smash spins people in a wheel but the knockback angle on some of the hits won't always link properly if the opponent DIs. Yes, not even SDI, opponents sometiems escape USmash that easily.. This attack is rather unreliable.

Can be hyphened and dash attack cancelled into, so Sonic slides across the ground while up smashing. You can delay the DACUS. Perform a fox trot (smash the control stick left/right and let go quickly), and just before Sonic reverts to his standing position near the end of the fox trot input the DAC. Good for catching people off guard if used sparingly. To learn more about what a DAC and DACUS is, please refer to the advanced techniques section.

Up smash is great when people try to air dodge to the ground in hope of avoiding damage, as it’ll out last their air dodge when timed correctly and cover great distance. The invincibility gives you a fancy option select where it will beat an opponent's move, or out last their air dodge in that same theoretical situation, so it’ll hit no matter what. Up smash can occasionally ‘spike’ however this is rare and almost impossible to produce it consistently in a match. Just something to keep in mind.




  • Throws



Pummel

[*Insert fancy picture here.*]
Damage: 3%
Range: Short
Frame data:

[To be filled out at another date.]



Description: Otherwise known as "Grab-Jab," Sonic has one of the best pummels in the game. It is fast and deals a good amount of percent.

A lot of Sonic's damage comes from the percentage he builds from his successful grabs. Every one of his throws deal 8% damage minimum, and there's an interesting mechanic with Sonic's pummel. It is so fast that under it doesn't register as having been used prior to the previous pummel. Under normal circumstances, the game register new inputs as new moves and decays them as such. Many characters with fast pummels have this same mechanic too, but there aren't too many pummels that both hit hard and fast.

Think of it like this: For every 40% the opponent has before you grabbed them, you can squeeze out one pummel before you have to throw or you risk the opponent breaking free. This is assuming the opponent breaks out of the grab at an optimal pace, with other opponents you can get in more pummels before having to let them go. At the very least, every instance you grab should be >10% fresh, and it will likely not drop below that figure even if decayed.

Your opponent is more likely to get hit by other attacks at low percents. Grab attempts, while helpful, won't contribute as much (but it's still a lot!). At higher percents, the opponent will take a long time to break free, and when the opponent can't be followed up nearly as easy or isn't willing to take chip damage, grabs are your prime opportunity to rack up even more damage thanks to Sonic's pummel.

Whether you want to get the most damage from your grabs, or refresh your other moves so as to make them stronger at the cost of a slightly less punishing grab attack, the choice is up to you. Both are good in their own respects. If you want to time it so that it deals 3% (or the most it can at that moment) everytime, time your pummel as Sonic taps his foot on the ground from the first pummel. If you're talking real-time, it's literally a 1/3 of a second, or 20 frames inbetween each hit.

[I'll see if I can figure out how slow it has to be so that if people don't want this they'll know. Otherwise not even I, the frame-data cruncher, knows.]




Up Throw

[*Insert fancy picture here.*]
Damage: 12%
Range: Short
Frame data:

[To be filled out at another date.]


Description: Sonic's most damaging throw at 12% fresh. Quick to boot.

Up throw is a strong option for Sonic because it immediately allows Sonic to go into his strength: his followup game in the early stock. Up-Throws can be followed up with Uair, which is one of his best disjointed aerials, and thus, forcing the opponent to either airdodge (which he can bait), jump (which a double jump Uair will catch them any ways), or attack on the way down (which can be shield grabbed or beaten out with Uair's priority). Few characters can consistently deal with that early game setup.

Speaking of early-game setups, at 0% and somewhat afterwards, U-Throw to UTilt is a true combo depending on the opponent and their DI. Works better if the opponent DIs towards the direction Sonic is facing and if they're a fastfaller. Fair also works, Bair will get the message across if it hits, and just about most other creative follow-up options will do fine. Pay attention to how the opponent reacts.

It’s a nice ice-breaker, Kills at high percentages (170%+). At high percentages (100%+) Up throw > upair/bair is a possible kill set up if the opponent doesn’t know how to DI or reacts predictably with their airdodge. Careful though, if they attack you might not be able to attack sooner than they can!




  • Special Attacks



Homing Attack


Damage: 8%
Range: Short in respect to Sonic's hurtbox. The lock on range for this move is in the shape of a large oval, with there being more range in front of Sonic then above and below. The lock on range horizontally in front of Sonic is roughly half of Final Destination.
Frame data:
Frame 51 (not shortened, Frame 26 (shortened)



Description: The Homing attack locks on while it rises upwards and travels through the air in an oval arc, aiming towards your opponent’s back. Therefore if you opponent is above you, there’s a better chance of hitting if they’re moving towards you then away from you. If they’re below you, there’s a better chance of hitting if they’re moving away you then towards you. If they’re out of range or in a mode of invincibility one frame before release, it will not lock on and Sonic will travel a short distance downwards at a 45 degree angle.

You can reduce the charging animation by pressing B again halfway through the rising animation. If you’re having trouble nailing the timing down mashing B will usually achieve the same result.

It has rather limited applications. It can be used to perform the infamous homing stall, by using the homing attack again and again underneath the stage. Just make you don't cancel it early or you run the risk of falling short of the "ceiling." On that note, you can also use it if you are recovering far offstage and your opponent is in no position to try to punish you. It gives you some extra distance forward and delays your fall every so slightly.

Another is gimping opponents who are in the top corners of the stage. Follow ups include 1st hit of ASC > jump/SDJ > HA (works around medium/high percentages) and ASC > footstool > buffered HA.

The Homing Attack comes with some major flaws. It’s easy to see coming and to punish afterwards. If the opponent sees you trying to use it to recover all they have to do is side step to screw you over. Or if they’re recovering and you’re trying to gimp them with it, they can attack you out of it or air dodge. It’s limited uses; lack of reliability and major flaws makes it one of Sonic’s worst moves.




Spring Jump



Damage: Falling Spring: 4% fresh, dwindles to 2% when fully staled.
Range: A grounded Spring does no damage, but the “range” for a character to bounce up from it is as wide as the Spring is. A falling Spring has range as large as the Spring itself, with little to no disjoint.
Frame Data:

[To be filled out at another date.]



Description: Sonic’s ultimate recovery move. Serving virtually the same role as it does in the Sonic games, it propels Sonic straight up, boasting one of, if not, the highest vertical acceleration speed out of anything in the game.

Accompanied with invincibility during the first third of the bounce, the Spring flings Sonic a considerable distance in the air, about ¾ up Final Destination from the ground. It provides Sonic with a safe recovery method to use with little fear of a counterattack.

The Spring puts Sonic in a special fall animation that still enables him to use his aerial attacks and his airdodge, but not his special moves, which means that Sonic is not left somewhat defenseless as he falling back to earth.

The Spring has different properties depending on where it is used: the distance covered from a Spring used in the air is slightly less than the distance a grounded Spring gives. A grounded Spring also allows other characters to bounce on it, giving them the same height as Sonic gets.

A grounded Spring lasts on the ground for about 3 seconds, whereas a falling Spring loses its hitbox when it hits the ground or disappears into the oblivion of the blastzone below.

The horizontal distance Sonic can achieve during his descent can be increased if he uses an aerial or his airdodge during the apex of his jump. Dair acts as it would normally. Sonic can still wall jump and footstool opponents during his special fall animation, and can even “footstool” opponents grabbing onto the ledge so long as they're not invincible.

The Spring can be used for more than just for recovery. Since Sonic is invincible during the first bit of the bounce, the Spring can be used as a safe way to simply get away from an opponent if he’s feeling pressured, although he will have to be careful on the descent. The Spring can be used during a Spin Dash Jump, which almost always tacks on an extra bit of damage if it’s used at the end of a Spin Dash combo. The Spring is also used as a gimping tool for characters who either require momentum to get back to the ledge, such as Link, or characters who have rather straight-forward recoveries that a Spring can intercept for just a bit of extra damage. Marth, Ike, and DK are some notable examples.

One common use of the Spring is for the ever-popular “Uthrow -> Spring -> Uair” combo. While this is being commonly DIed now, the boost provided by the Spring still provides a form of pressure for characters who are high in the air and are trying to descend, as they have to worry about Sonic netting an earlier kill than usual.

A sparsely used, very risky tactic with the grounded Spring uses the same concept: if the opponent is about to land right above Sonic, he can use the invincibility granted from the Spring to thrust him and the opponent high in air, shrug off any initially attempted aerial the opponent uses, and hit right back with an aerial, possibly scoring a KO.

The Spring does have a few particular flaws. Because Sonic cannot use another Spring or his other special moves that manipulate his position in the aforementioned special animation, he’s susceptible to being attacked or grabbed at his landing spot since his aerial acceleration is low and thus can’t change directions quickly.

Sonic is also prone to being Cypher-grabbed, ala Snake, if he uses Spring too low and is grabbed when his invincibility wears out (there is no auto-ledgegrab feature during his jump animation). Unlike Snake, Sonic has no way to get back on the stage once grabbed if he’s offstage.

Another very minor flaw is Air Tripping, where Sonic lands on stage before going into his special animation. Sonic has to jump (or get hit) to get his normal physics back. Should Sonic jump over a ledge while he's still in this state, he will go into his special animation then and this will prove fatal with no intervention or precautions.




[/collapse]



VI. Basics on playing Sonic
  • Follow ups, set ups and options
    [*]Approaching
    [*]Gimping guide
    [*]How to kill
    [*]Avoiding bad habits
    [*]List of basic follow ups
    [*]Out of shield options
    [*]Ledge options


[Someday these bullets will actually have text/directories to go along with it... someday.]


VII. Advance techniques

...

[This is empty. Somebody get on this soon, if not now dammit.]



VIII. Useful links and videos

...

[Again this is empty. Did we ever discuss the idea of having video guides to go along with this? I know that Chis has used some of my videos, I have posted videos on Youtube for the sole purpose of teaching the visual learners, and I do have plans for making more not only because I want to, but if it would help others and that it might be appreciated.]



VIII. Credits
Thanks to Kinzer for part of the Intro and frame data
[Feels weird referring to myself in the third person, but at least I know I did inspire Chis' introduction and I know damn well I'm the only one here who bothered to get the frame data so meh. I'm only wondering if I should even mention myself in the credits or if I should also mention for taking over.]
Thanks to Chis for his previous efforts in managing the community guide.
Thanks to Espy for passing control of the guide.
Thanks to Browny for the pictures and some of the write ups that he did.
And thanks to everyone who’s contributed and is contributing still.
 

Kinzer

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Changelog

05/09/11

- Kinzer takes control of the guide. Thank Chis for managing this for as long as he did.
- Reformatted and removed some of the redundancies and inconsistencies in the coding.
- One new thing added for "Things needed."
- Reformatted the moveset category slightly.
- Homing attack is now "Homing Attack"

08/07/11

- A lot of the guide is now in a different font.
- Reworded a lot of the descriptions for movesets.
- Forum code now a lot more consistent and less redundant.
- Added an overview.
- Added a general section for Acronyms & Terminology, as well as a link to the Smash Lab's standard terms list. A list I feel I contributed very little to but that's besides the helpful information it has.
- Jab Combo is now simply "Jab."
- Spring is now "Spring Jump."
- All aerials renamed to their "unacronymed" form.
- Many forgotten/difficult to notice capitalization fixes.
- More things needed.
- The table of Context should now properly reflect the numbers as seen in their specific sections.

01/16/12

- I should've put a disclaimer at the very top of the OP a long time ago. I'm not the only brilliant mind around here, and I'm sure there are some people out there that want to have a good resource but don't want to look everywhere else. This thread is here, and there is certainly information that has been posted by myself, among other people that just have not had the chance to be put on public display yet. With that said, the sooner they can get up and the guide can look more pretty and detailed, it will look better in the end.
- Patience is now a requirement. [dealwithit.jpg.]
- Added a description to the Smash Lab's terminology list thingy, along with the disclaimer that not all of the terminology applies to gameplay but moreso the community's lingo on the forums. Like for example "what is 'C-Tier?'"
- In Acronyms & Terminology:

- Combined the "V" for "Vertical" to "Spin Dash Jump."
- Combined the "i" for "invincible" to "Spin Dash Roll."
- Combined the "P" for "Pivot" to "Dash Dance."
- Removed "SDSC" for "Spin Dash Shield Cancel."
- Added "PS" for "Powershield" [or at least that's the way I prefer].
- Added "MC" for "Momentum Cancel."
- Added "FF" for "Fast Fall."
- Added "Screechstop" next to "SS."
- Added "SH" for "Short Hop."
- Added "SD" for "Suicidal Death."
- Added "dFTilt" and "uFTilt" for "Down-Angled" and "'Up-Angled Forward Tilts'" respectively. Did this with Forward Smash too.
- Added "DAC(US)"[/U ]for "Dashattack Cancel(ed Up Smash)".
- Added "OOS" for "Out Of Shield/State."
- "Back throw" is now "Back Throw."
- Cons is now "Teal."

**TL;DR Acronyms & Terminology got a clean-up + some new additions. I'm not explaining what "TL;DR" means either, go look that up on Google if you must (if you're reading up to this point, you'll be glad you did. If I forgot anything here in the changelog or if I didn't put a new/removed/revised acronym from the guide into the changelog please let me know**​

- Slightly updated the overview with a new 6 month outlook. Please let me know if this wrong.
- In Pros & Cons:

- Removed "Smashes have noticeable cool down." This is already briefly and indirectly covered when the first negative is mentioned.
- Removed "Great at baiting and punishing mistakes.This is also briefly covered in the pros.
- Added "Aerial game is weaker than ground" To Cons.
- Added "Able to punish easily, frequently, and with emphasis under the right conditions" to Pros.
- Fixed a few embarrassing typos. [Those of which I'm not sure if I made or if they were there before I took charge.]

**If you disagree with any of the new additions or any of the removals, you're free to contest.**​

- The disclaimers under the Moveset Analysis has been updated. Speaking of, "Moveset analysis" Now has a capital "A." Y"A"y. ^o^
- New addition to Moveset: Move Tallies!
- Added "Great" to the set of ranges. In order, it should be as follow: Short, Medium, Good, Great.
- Moves themselves:

- Jab has been fixed up just a bit.
- Tilts now have their own section.
- DTilt is reworded slightly.
- Seeing as how it is sometimes possible that FTilt can connect with only the weak part of the attack, I made a note that the hitbox close to his body deals 4%, his feet deal 7%, and should they both hit it's 11%. Fixed up description a bit.
- Messed around with UTilt as well. Range is now "Medium" as well.
- I'm a bit uneasy about what I did with Nair. If anybody could help me improve or let me know if it's alright, that would be nice.
- Added the fact that Uair autocancels from an immediate short-hop and how that can be used both offensively and defensively. Polished some rough edges elsewhere. Range from "Good" to "Good horizontally, Great vertically."
- Bair got love too. It's range is now "Great."
- Fair can do 14% Don't you know? You wouldn't have until I added that in the damage overview. It's a pretty good move to sometimes land with if you've no other choice too. Fair's Range is now "Medium."
- Dair is now explained to have an opening and lingering hitbox. Yes, there is a difference. Also removed this tidbit: "The second stage kills an airborne opponent around the same time as Uthrow and Nair at ground level." [I'm not putting it back up there until I actually have proof of this. It's hard to believe otherwise.] Also grammar~. And Range description added to.
- "Smashes" now has the proper list format.
- FSmash's range is now "Great." Updated the format to be consistent.
- DSmash's range appropriated accordingly. Also has the correct font.
- USmash now has a proper range.
- Removed this tidbit from USmash: "Larger characters are more susceptible to this unfortunate effect." [Tell me why it makes no difference and I think the point was made that opponents have a somewhat easy time breaking out of it.] USmash also now has the proper font and consistent format.
- Throws now have their own section.
- New move! Pummel is now covered. [Criticism is appreciated, including what it's missing. Knowing that people actually care will motivate me to actually get it.]
- UThrow was just an eyesore compared to every other move detailed. [So I sexed it up and now it's feeling more confident. Not quite a professional note but as long as it gets the point across I suppose. Let me know if I said too much/too little I mean the description, I don't really care as much if you're offended by my perverted remark].
- Updated Homing Attack's range. Reformatted to be consistent. Revised the description too.
- [I think I] slightly reformatted Spring Jump. Nothing major though. [Read it anyway!]
 

Kinzer

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Agenda:

-Most of the frame data has been logged. Just need to put the information into the guide.
-Complete Sonic's entire moveset/polish up on the moves that don't hardly have a description.
-Add missing movesets, this includesmore pictures for sure.
- Motivation is the key. That's why I'm taking Psychology.
- Still thinking of things that could be improved/added. Nothing seems to be needing removal anymore.
-Possibly looking for replacement manager who is more available than myself and just as intelligent/motivated to keep the guide updating. Probably won't happen, there might be another big update in the Summer.
 

Jim Morrison

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So what new thing(s) are there to be added to the guide? Has anything happened since it was made that requires it be renewed?

P.S. I still think it's a fair idea.
 

Life

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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184030
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224797
and of course

So, what are we going to do about sonic not being in trouneys then? I say everyone from the smash boards or sonic section at least should go to trouney, and prove them wrong about sonic. We can go on and on about how much he sucks, but let's try to do something about it. Let's not cry, but pick sonic up and go on an owning steak with him.
 

Chis

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So what new thing(s) are there to be added to the guide? Has anything happened since it was made that requires it be renewed?

P.S. I still think it's a fair idea.
The move set section of the current guide is pretty lacklustre and not really detailed enough. The images don’t work (at least not for me), no advance technique section although that stuff is in another thread. Also the presentation is bland and the OP is inactive.

There is no need for there to be two threads when you can easily fit the content of both in one thread.


I just don't think it can really help new players that well.
 

Kinzer

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Under what category would something like D-Throw tech fall into? I could only see that falling into "Pros and Cons," but even then I've found that it's not always as bad as it seems. Maybe in "Move set?"

...Okay no I'm lying, there is no reason anybody would ever want to use D-Throw when you have U-Throw and F-Throw.

/somewhat kidding.
 

Chis

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I've updated the OP.

If video examples are needed to go along with the guide I can record and upload.
(^-^)b
I would like people to post videos where the Sonic player really shows what Sonic can do. So the reader can have a visual example of how Sonic plays. Not to say that there is best style but just to give them a good idea. Only a few videos are needed.

Under what category would something like D-Throw tech fall into? I could only see that falling into "Pros and Cons," but even then I've found that it's not always as bad as it seems. Maybe in "Move set?"

...Okay no I'm lying, there is no reason anybody would ever want to use D-Throw when you have U-Throw and F-Throw.

/somewhat kidding.
I’d say the pro and cons and somewhere in the move set section.


Also what do you guys think of the Pikachu Guides format? I hear people talk about it quite a lot. Opinons?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225527

I think that some sections should be collapsible so that the reader has an easier time navigating the thread.
 

Tesh

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Needs a section with cool stage gimmicks for showing off (or maybe that would take up too much space).

Visual aids would be great as well, though having alot of gifs and pictures makes the guide load up slowly.
 

Kinzer

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Nothing about Sonic should be excluded from a guide that is suppose to tell you everything about the character, I am all for specific stage gimmicks, especially considering that I got a couple uploading as I'm typing out this post. I'm going to post them, and I think I'd like to contribute a little bit to this guide. Mainly Pros & Cons, Introduction, and a little bit into his moveset.

Just a little bit on the latter though, I'm sure there are other people who know a lot more than I do. The things I do with Sonic are mainly instinct.
 

Jim Morrison

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Sonic's F-smash AKA Rihanna Punch is best used when the opponent is on the other side of the stage. You have to hope he will run at you to punish it and get hit by a deceptive range of Sonic lunging forward.
It's your only viable kill move after B-air and a gimp. But you can't really gimp top tiers with Sonic so eh.
 

Chis

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Let’s start on the simpler things such as the overview, intro and the pros and cons. I'll update this post later with what I view as pros and cons.


+Very high mobility on stage
+Adaptive approaches
+One of the best recoveries in the game
+Good at gimping ceratin characters
+Mid-weight with a good momentum cancel
+Great at baiting and punishing mistakes
+6th fastest areial speed
+Can bulid damage quickly

Cons

-Kill set ups are not easy
-Smashes have noticeable cool down
-Average priority
-Hard to approach safely
-Muli hit attacks are DIable
-Poor grab range
 

Tesh

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Let’s start on the simpler things such as the overview, intro and the pros and cons. I'll update this post later with what I view as pros and cons.

Pros

+Extremely fast ground speed
+Adaptive approaches
+Adaptable to a lot of stages
+One of the best recoveries in the game
+Good at gimping
+Mid-weight
+Better glide toss then Diddy
+great at punishing little mistakes
+Better than average grab game
+Great mind game potential
+No impossible match ups
+5th fastest areial speed


Cons

-Slightly weak overall
-Kill set ups are not easy
-Smashes have noticeable cool down
-Average priority as he hasn't got a sword/hammer/snake tilts
-Hard to approach safely
-The speed of his attacks don't match his ground speed
-Muli hit attacks are DIable
-Down throw can be teched
-Poor grab range
-Average range on attacks

Probably sucks. What do you think?
Not sure how long you want this part to be, but I think some of that can be condensed. Slightly weak overall, average range on attacks and poor grab range are party of "Average priority" or Average priority and attack speed.

I don't know if you want to get really specific in a pros and cons list. Down throw being techable is less important than everything on that list and glide tossing isn't available most of the time. I think the pros and cons should be broader, so it doesn't take up a whole page or something.
 

Chis

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You're right Tesh. I've condensed it and edited it into my previous post.
 

Tesh

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Poor aerial acceleration? Once you use spring, he can be land camped easily.

One of the other threads had a note next to his ground speed: crosses FD in 54 frames. Or something like that. Spindash is faster than alot of projectiles too (though i know its not the same thing).

Also, lets put "Mid weight (+a good momentum cancel)". Something that seperates him from characters with similar weight. He will live alot longer than mario, pit and ivysaur against knockback.

His airspeed is tied with donkey kong for 6th.

Very high mobility while on stage (spring, dair, spindash).

Can build damage quickly(ASC-aerial/footstool can do 30-50 damage in seconds).

Also, metaknight, wario and pikachu are the only high tiers that you can't gimp.
 

Kinzer

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Let me see if anything helpful comes from my post.

The introduction can almost be worded any way, I guess whatever is most welcoming/fancy. I'm not one that is all that creative so forgive me for any corny lines. I suppose I can go with a small background history of Sonic, Sonic's metagame advancement in Brawl, and maybe a little bit of the sub-forum history.

At least from my perspective anyway, I know that there are others who have been around longer and probably have a better idea, but here I go.

Introduction:

Welcome to the ultimate compendium of Sonic the Hedgehog in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. If you're reading this, you've already taken a huge leap towards becoming the next best Sonic player.

To fill you in on what you have missed, Sonic was revealed for Brawl sometime late 2007. Of course a lot of people were very excited to see the Blue Blur joining the fight. Many then would aspire to start training themselves to become the Sonic messiah once the game was released in North America in March of 2008.

From that point on, a lot of the people who say they would do great things with Sonic, have since left. Most likely having to move on in life, or perhaps simply out of boredom. You'll have to ask those people individually why if you care to know. Essentially though, many people, even some who are still around to this day, may have been just a little bit disappointed with the way Sonic plays in the game. This was showcased especially when you go to look back at videos on Youtube that were released during that year and you see how a lot of the players had very bad habits and expected to go far despite that poor play.

Other people have other reasons for having changed paths. Some were depressed to see that Sonic "wasn't himself." If you look at some other characters, you will notice that Sonic cannot compete with them in certain fields. Some are less opinionated, and in their case some may have found that they perform better with a different character; not necessarily a "better" character.

You will also see a lot of arguments for Sonic to have been one of the worst characters in this game. Sonic on face-value is also just a little bit below-average. Whether any of that still holds any water to this day or not is still up for debate, but a number of people have gone out of their way to prove otherwise, and slowly but surely many have seen that Sonic is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands... Even if Sonic still isn't anything like the combined forces of a powerhouse Snake, a maneuverable Wario, or a defensive King Dedede.

Do not get the wrong idea however, as it is a long and grueling road, and the difficulty; while never anything short of difficult, can vary on the region. Part of what is still being looked into is the way Sonic interacts with some character, more specifically the ones where it is universally considered that Sonic struggles to win against that character. Depending on who you ask, some will say that certain pair-ups are impossibles, others will tell you that Sonic is able to win all of his fights with enough determination. It is up to you to decide which side to take, as that topic is heavily argued and neither seems to have any concrete proof to validate their ideals.

For the sake of being a non-biased party, be sure to experiment a little bit. Ask for help when you get stuck, and draw upon your own conclusions after you have done enough playing and tinkering around. Sometimes it's easier to give up than it is to keep pressing forward and seeing something that before was all but invisible.

To this day, more is known about how to play an efficient Sonic, and how to win while being a truly skilled player at the same time. More is certain about Sonic's positives and negatives, yet there are still many things being investigated and still other things left for debate. Even with Sonic's shortcomings, the Hedgehog has come a long way since the game's release. Many of the players to this day are still finding ways to improve themselves, as Sonic players and as players in general. Having said that, that means that there are many ways to play Sonic, achieve success, and the ceiling of perfection for Sonic is very high and difficult to reach.

Not impossible though, The most notable have shown in many instances that they have gotten close, and are still working towards their dreams. Even when the player is not quite there, on many occasions has it been written down in the history of tournament results that the players have come a long way in overcoming any obstacle that has come their way and when they haven't reached the top that they will only become more determined to overcome whatever fault was previously holding the person back.

Now you, the reader, are the new generation. By all means, please feel welcomed, as now it is a lot easier to find all the information you could want in order to become the next speed demon. There is a lot of potential in Sonic, and moreso in you; never forget that. Always feel free to ask any questions, for any assistance regarding Sonic, and the way he handles his opponents. If you have any inquiries as a player, then you are also in the right place. To become a great Sonic player, one must be a great player, otherwise both the player and the player's Sonic will falter. If you find yourself stuck in a loop or a bad habit, allow the community to help you in overcoming your problems. We are all family here, we all want to see each other grow and prosper.

Now that you have a better idea of the road ahead, please feel free to continue reading the rest of the guide. Or if you have decided for yourself at this point that you would rather not go through the work, that is fine. Even if though, perhaps it would be of benefit if you went on to learn more about the Hedgehog. Who knows? Someday when you may come across a Sonic player and you may need to know everything about his character in order to become the victor. Nobody is turned down from the guide, it is for everybody to see, friend and foe alike.
 

Chis

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Introduction:

Welcome to the ultimate compendium of Sonic the Hedgehog in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. If you're reading this, you've already taken a huge leap towards becoming the next best Sonic player.

To fill you in on what you have missed, Sonic was revealed for Brawl sometime late 2007. Of course a lot of people were very excited to see the Blue Blur joining the fight. Many then would aspire to start training themselves to become the Sonic messiah once the game was released in North America in March of 2008.

From that point on, a lot of the people who say they would do great things with Sonic, have since left. Most likely having to move on in life, or perhaps simply out of boredom. You'll have to ask those people individually why if you care to know. Essentially though, many people, even some who are still around to this day, may have been just a little bit disappointed with the way Sonic plays in the game. This was showcased especially when you go to look back at videos on Youtube that were released during that year and you see how a lot of the players had very bad habits and expected to go far despite that poor play.

Other people have other reasons for having changed paths. Some were depressed to see that Sonic "wasn't himself." If you look at some other characters, you will notice that Sonic cannot compete with them in certain fields. Some are less opinionated, and in their case some may have found that they perform better with a different character; not necessarily a "better" character.

You will also see a lot of arguments for Sonic to have been one of the worst characters in this game. Sonic on face-value is also just a little bit below-average. Whether any of that still holds any water to this day or not is still up for debate, but a number of people have gone out of their way to prove otherwise, and slowly but surely many have seen that Sonic is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands... Even if Sonic still isn't anything like the combined forces of a powerhouse Snake, a maneuverable Wario, or a defensive King Dedede.

Do not get the wrong idea however, as it is a long and grueling road, and the difficulty; while never anything short of difficult, can vary on the region. Part of what is still being looked into is the way Sonic interacts with some character, more specifically the ones where it is universally considered that Sonic struggles to win against that character. Depending on who you ask, some will say that certain pair-ups are impossibles, others will tell you that Sonic is able to win all of his fights with enough determination. It is up to you to decide which side to take, as that topic is heavily argued and neither seems to have any concrete proof to validate their ideals.

For the sake of being a non-biased party, be sure to experiment a little bit. Ask for help when you get stuck, and draw upon your own conclusions after you have done enough playing and tinkering around. Sometimes it's easier to give up than it is to keep pressing forward and seeing something that before was all but invisible.

To this day, more is known about how to play an efficient Sonic, and how to win while being a truly skilled player at the same time. More is certain about Sonic's positives and negatives, yet there are still many things being investigated and still other things left for debate. Even with Sonic's shortcomings, the Hedgehog has come a long way since the game's release. Many of the players to this day are still finding ways to improve themselves, as Sonic players and as players in general. Having said that, that means that there are many ways to play Sonic, achieve success, and the ceiling of perfection for Sonic is very high and difficult to reach.

Not impossible though, The most notable have shown in many instances that they have gotten close, and are still working towards their dreams. Even when the player is not quite there, on many occasions has it been written down in the history of tournament results that the players have come a long way in overcoming any obstacle that has come their way and when they haven't reached the top that they will only become more determined to overcome whatever fault was previously holding the person back.

Now you, the reader, are the new generation. By all means, please feel welcomed, as now it is a lot easier to find all the information you could want in order to become the next speed demon. There is a lot of potential in Sonic, and moreso in you; never forget that. Always feel free to ask any questions, for any assistance regarding Sonic, and the way he handles his opponents. If you have any inquiries as a player, then you are also in the right place. To become a great Sonic player, one must be a great player, otherwise both the player and the player's Sonic will falter. If you find yourself stuck in a loop or a bad habit, allow the community to help you in overcoming your problems. We are all family here, we all want to see each other grow and prosper.

Now that you have a better idea of the road ahead, please feel free to continue reading the rest of the guide. Or if you have decided for yourself at this point that you would rather not go through the work, that is fine. Even if though, perhaps it would be of benefit if you went on to learn more about the Hedgehog. Who knows? Someday when you may come across a Sonic player and you may need to know everything about his character in order to become the victor. Nobody is turned down from the guide, it is for everybody to see, friend and foe alike.
Very nice Kinzer, I like the stuff in green.

I feel that the first three red paragraphs aren’t really necessary. People haven’t really been informed of the character or the current metagame but just history, which isn’t as important imo. History can still be there but just briefly.

You talk a lot about uncertainty and not knowing everything about this character as things are still being discussed and debated. This is not bad thing but you kind of overdo it here. The introduction shouldn’t be too long, otherwise people won’t read it.
 

Kinzer

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Understood.

Feel free to work with whatever you like from that, and turn it into whatever works best.
 

Tenki

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I'll take a look at this soonnnnnnn~

I have one more final to go at 6pm and summer sem is overrr
 

Chis

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So I've edited Kinzer's intro and the pros and cons into the main page.

So all we need now is a name and an overview before moving on to the move set. The format and colouring in the OP is temporary, so does anyone have any problems seeing text on a dark background?
 

Tenki

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IMO intro too long

make it as accessible to readers as possible ;p

I was also thinking of shortening the side-B/down-B thing for a while now as well.
Video explanations are definitely the best for some of those.
 

Chis

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I made it even more compact. So I’m looking forward to seeing some of the more experienced Sonic’s ‘overview’ of the character. Basically what he’s all about.
 

Sonic_King

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Poor aerial acceleration? Once you use spring, he can be land camped easily.

One of the other threads had a note next to his ground speed: crosses FD in 54 frames. Or something like that. Spindash is faster than alot of projectiles too (though i know its not the same thing).

Also, lets put "Mid weight (+a good momentum cancel)". Something that seperates him from characters with similar weight. He will live alot longer than mario, pit and ivysaur against knockback.

His airspeed is tied with donkey kong for 6th.

Very high mobility while on stage (spring, dair, spindash).

Can build damage quickly(ASC-aerial/footstool can do 30-50 damage in seconds).

Also, metaknight, wario and pikachu are the only high tiers that you can't gimp.
wow i thought the asc to aerial can do only up to 45%
 

Tesh

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Well I was more or less alluding to the footstool setups sonic has. But you can land 3 hit ascsc and follow up with shasc aerial which is 60 damage and requires one simple read. I don't know how to land 3 hit ASC on small people though.
 

XLR8TION

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um.....shoot idk how to contribute-__-
 

Kinzer

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Simply format your thoughts into a guide, that should help.

Chis, is there anything else you need right now from certain subcategories or shall we move on?
 

B.A.M.

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it would be nice if we could get some frame advantage stuff done for sonic, ive been inquiring about this for awhile, and i definitely believe that would aid us in choosing some follow ups.

im definitely down with a pros and cons section for moves as well. Could we get a renewed gimp section? My gimps have been okay as of late, however it seems some sonics have been getting quite proficient at it. I think itd be cool to have some gimping strats down or things to look out for. Especially since we cant kill.

EDIT: we also need to get some things like map positioning and what not. That would be very beneficial as well.
 

XLR8TION

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Simply format your thoughts into a guide, that should help.

Chis, is there anything else you need right now from certain subcategories or shall we move on?
tbh kinzer idk much about sonic :(
 

Chis

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Alright, we can do the overview later.

A pros and cons section for moves...It’s a good idea. But do you mean doing that for moves instead of descriptions, uses and applications or as an addition?

Yep, a new gimp section is on the cards.

I'll update this post and the OP soon.
 

Browny

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I cant believe I just remembered this now, Ill show you what would be a great idea. Ill go find it...

I have suggested this before, idk if its too much trouble to format etc though
http://bbow.freehostia.com/basics.html
Granted I have no idea how to make such a thing but it does look nice...

Also I have gone through this idea many times in my head, but doing a moveset analysis very similar to this one looks nice imo
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239748
(I did the pics :p) but I think we could elaborate on each moves' specifics, telling people every little aspect of an attack without needing to get too technical.

For example with Dsmash I would write something like:
3 distinct hits with each hit having less knockback, 4th hit animation has no hitbox. Great move to punish landing lag and can send the enemy very low if they DI incorrectly which isnt unlikely when used to punish spotdodges. Very punishable on block and if the weaker hits connect at very low %, is punishable if it hits. If used while standing on an edge or facing a wall, Sonic will be pushed back further onto the stage during the animation. A situational but effective move, its start up and punishability means it should not be used when a tilt or fsmash would work.
 

Chis

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I cant believe I just remembered this now, Ill show you what would be a great idea. Ill go find it...

I have suggested this before, idk if its too much trouble to format etc though
http://bbow.freehostia.com/basics.html
Granted I have no idea how to make such a thing but it does look nice...
I remember that. It's good but I don't know how to do something like that... We could contact the creator and ask if we really wanted to though.

Also I have gone through this idea many times in my head, but doing a moveset analysis very similar to this one looks nice imo
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239748
(I did the pics :p) but I think we could elaborate on each moves' specifics, telling people every little aspect of an attack without needing to get too technical.

For example with Dsmash I would write something like:
3 distinct hits with each hit having less knockback, 4th hit animation has no hitbox. Great move to punish landing lag and can send the enemy very low if they DI incorrectly which isnt unlikely when used to punish spotdodges. Very punishable on block and if the weaker hits connect at very low %, is punishable if it hits. If used while standing on an edge or facing a wall, Sonic will be pushed back further onto the stage during the animation. A situational but effective move, its start up and punishability means it should not be used when a tilt or fsmash would work.
That seems like a good foramat. We might as well use that.

Damage:
Range:
Frame data:

Description:
Like that right? Also could you provide the pictures for Sonic's moves? We would all be very grateful :bee:


 

Chis

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I'll start us off.

Jab combo (AAA)

###

Damage: 2%-2%-3% (7%)
Range: Short
Frame data: 1st jab comes out on frame 3, lasts 20 frames
2nd jab comes out on frame 2, starts 12 frames after the first jab. Lasts 22 frames.
3rd jab comes out on frame 3, 24 frames after the first and secound jab. Lasts 32 fames.

Description: A fairly weak jab combo. The first jab is Sonic's quickest move, coming out in 3 frames. Therefore it can be used to interrupt slower moves and prevent them from hitting you. Furthermore the jab combo’s knock back makes it a good GTFO move; earning you some space when you're cornered. However you're prone to getting punished if the jab combo is shielded due to its lag, even if it's the first jab.

At low percentages if an opponent is between you and a wall you can trap them by using the jab combo repeatedly. Smash DI will only let them break out of it sooner. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw)

Holding A makes Sonic do his 1st jab until he hits something, a useful way of punishing spot dodge spammers. Ftilt is usually recommened over the jab combo for your main attack in close up incounters due to its greater knock back, damage and range.
 
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