The Smash Tournament Format is Flawed

[Krylon]

Items are not banned for being good or bad. Items are banned for being random. The size of the advantage that they give is insignificant, the only thing that matters is that they unpredictably appear and give one player more options than they had before.

Good post, but the above is really all that needs to be said. People need to stop comparing this game to other games. The bottom line is that items are random and unpredictable in Brawl, and there is no way to justify how they would be "fair" in competitive play because that fact will never change, end of story.

 

[INs4niTY-]

u gona have to live with it or you can just cry a river

O_O SRY for the triple post. well u can cry the river 3 times now

 

[INs4niTY-]

u gona have to live with it or you can just cry a river

 

[INs4niTY-]

u gona have to live with it or you can just cry a river

 

[Winston]

Hopefully you can hear me this time, but....

adding items does not necessarily add depth because 1). they are powerful and 2). They essentially homogenize the characters, obsoleting a lot of the strategies based on the characters' unique traits and matchups.

 

[TheMintyCookie]

I don't want this anymore.

 

[entrapment]

Well, it ready does boil down to if boxes and capsules could be taken out of items set to land in a set order ...it would be possible. But the random features of items are what causes people not to like them. Though we can all agree a bomb appearing in front of your forward smash is pretty depressing

 

[Corner-Trap]

1) You didnt specify
2) I seem to have made the mistake in assuming you could figure out why randomness in a card game is needed.

1) That should have been common sense
2) How about you just answer the question and give an example where randomness is preferred over consistency

 

[Pink Reaper]

God I just wasted 40 minutes of my life reading through this stupid thread.

First things first:

And again, you woulda paid money knowing that coulda happened, deal with it.

Lol

Second, Sonic Wave and Tomato Kirby: I love you both

Third: OP still hasn't addressed alot of the really obvious flaws in his own logic when brought up in counter points. Here's just a few since I doubt you'll go back to look for them since your obviously attempting to avoid them(taken from mookie rah/tomato kirby):

1)Items are still random. There's no way to control where or when an item will spawn. There's no way to control who will benefit from item. There's no way to know which item will spawn. There's too many variables to integrate it in to your strategy.

2)Items created more balance issues. Even if items always spawned an equal distance from both characters the faster character would always get to it first. If a beam sword were to spawn between Ike and Sonic it's pretty obvious which one is going to get it.

3)Items promote camping. Because any given item(except maybe the Smoke Ball) is actually VERY powerful camping becomes a huge issue. Camping would become the new main strategy for many players. They would pick the fastest character(sonic) and simply turtle or even just camp the ledge until a powerful item spawned close enough for them to get to it first and then use it to rip their opponent to shreds.

4)Cus I think this needs to be said. Exploading CAPSULES can't be turned off. Crates yes, capsules no.

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

My friends and I are also trying to include items into tournament play. Before we could do that we have to test it ourselves. So far we have narrowed down the amount of tournament worthy items to about 20 or less. Then we were thinking about making a rule where EACH OPPONENT gets to ban 1 item and select one item that would be put into the match. So Player A first bans an item out of the NON-BANNED items, and then player B does the same. After that's out of the way, Player A selects the item they want to ban and so does player B. whether they choose to do double blind pick is up to them, nevertheless they choose 2 items between the both of them and the items are put on low.

My friend and I began the match, as serious as we can be. we did not see an item for like a min. and then gradually u saw more but not to the point where u couldnt take the match seriously. NOT 1 EXPLODING CAPSULE. We removed all crates and barrels and almost all explosive items w/ the exception of the mine which doesnt explode on contact. I think I need to run these settings on HIGH in order to see if we will get an explosive capsule or not. but as far as i can see this could work for tournament. I would really like to see the community change a little bit and try using items on more time. Few items would be used and on low. I really dont see the problem w/ putting items back in the tournament scene. And yes items could still be included in "COMPETITIVE" play.

Not once were we thrown off by the items appearing on the stage and the match wuz still insanely close. Not at one point did we think 1 of us had an advantage over the other. one person simply had to dodge an item from time to time, but that changed back and forth from player to player.

you ppl should really think about this. Im going to continue putting those item settings on high to see if ne exploding capusles come about.

EDIT: sure once ur opponent has an item he has more options. but that's another reason why we have more than 1 stock. If evrything wuz completely balanced, wouldnt the first stock determine whose better? why do we need more than 1? or would an SD count as human error? well hello...ppl can mess up w/ items too, and hurt themselves or sum how give it to their opponent.

 

[BUM163]

i agree wit this all the way n feel that not every tournament should be the same. when people say oh i lost, cause i made alot of mistakes.... why are you tryin to look cool lol? the whole point is the better man makes less mistakes. with items on opens up new possiblities n makes the game a whole lot fun.

true competitors won't mind the change just cause they wanna show they can win no matter wat comes their way. just like me, i'll try my best to win no matter the circumstance, just to prove my worth n ability. to me i agreee with this n believe that this change is a good thing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

My friend and I began the match, as serious as we can be. we did not see an item for like a min. and then gradually u saw more but not to the point where u couldnt take the match seriously. NOT 1 EXPLODING CAPSULE.

Now multiply that by like 1 million and put $200 on the line. I can gurantee that at least one person will be screwed by that.

We removed all crates and barrels and almost all explosive items w/ the exception of the mine which doesnt explode on contact. I think I need to run these settings on HIGH in order to see if we will get an explosive capsule or not. but as far as i can see this could work for tournament. I would really like to see the community change a little bit and try using items one more time. Few items would be used and on low. I really dont see the problem w/ putting items back in the tournament scene. And yes items could still be included in "COMPETITIVE" play.

Once again, they were not banned because of exploding things. Get that out of your head. They were banned because they are random. Until this changes, they will still be banned based on ethics.

Not once were we thrown off by the items appearing on the stage and the match wuz still insanely close. Not at one point did we think 1 of us had an advantage over the other. one person simply had to dodge an item from time to time

That is an advantage. Although it's a small one, it is still there.

but that changed back and forth from player to player.

There is no gurantee that will happen all the time. In fact we have two years worth of evidence that says it doesn't

EDIT: sure once ur opponent has an item he has more options. but that's another reason why we have more than 1 stock.

So you think it's fair that an opponents randomly obtained advantage assists in you losing a stock?

If evrything wuz completely balanced, wouldnt the first stock determine whose better?

You mean how one round determines who's better in fighting games...oh wait, they have more than one round don't they. This is the same concept.

why do we need more than 1? or would an SD count as human error?

We don't have more than one life to account for SDs, we have more than one life to account for fluctuations in skill. In the same way that human emotions ebb and flow, a player's skill changes throught the match. We have multiple lives to try to counteract this.

well hello...ppl can mess up w/ items too, and hurt themselves or some how give it to their opponent.

The majority of the time they won't hurt themselves. That's because when we are talking about competative play, we are talking about two very skilled players fighting each other. "He might mess up" or "It takes skill to use" is not a valid arguement because we are assuming that both players have the skill to use everything at their disposal.

 

[Zink]

I am against items... prolly half of them are worth a stock, and those that aren't are pretty potent anyway. if you ban all the broken ones, you might as well play clean.

 

[slartibartfast42]

removing crates, barrels, and capsules eliminates spontaneous explosions, which has always been the primary concern, because if you turned items on in melee you would get them, but if you can now turn them off.... well.... that changes everything.

smoke bombs could be used for mind games, I don't see how it would make anything needlessly unfair.

why are you so resistant to even considering the idea, I don't mind playing without items, but I think it's odd how so many people are so violently opposed to even CONSIDER it.

SMOKE BALLS? lol

Smoke balls used for mind games? Having to go and pick it up would hamper you more than help. How would an item that reduces your move pool and is not a threat to your opponent in any way be used for a mindgame? Plus, having a smoke ball only match would be really dumb.

Anyway, I actually said something about the smokeball when I originally wrote the post, but deleted it out because I felt it was irrelevant. Guess I should have left it in. It said something like how the smoke ball was a pointless item that on very rare occasions could randomly appear in the right spot to give a character a slight 'push' in a certain direction, making them miss an attack, and turn the tide of a match. Also, the balls lying all over the ground because no one is picking them up would be a hamper to the character's movement as an item sitting there slows you down a bit. And what happens when you press A to attack, and a smoke ball appears in front of you and you grab it instead of attacking? Then you die, and don't get the prize money to pay for your sister's operation.

The fact is that we have considered items EXTREMELY carefully, and we have a wealth of reasons to keep items out. Now that we have Brawl instead of Melee, we look at items and our reasons for banning them again, and see that all the reasons are still 100% valid.

The reason we are firmly opposed is because money, maybe in the thousands of dollars, is going to be on the line. If there's anything people ever get serious about, it's money.

 

[Green & Watch]

Funny, this is how Melee tourneys started.

At first people wanted all items, which you're staying away from.

Then there was the no broken items phase.

Then the very few item phase.

And no we're left with no items, which is the way it should be.


And if you want to play with items, you can do so, just not at my or other major tourneys that may be held.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I know it may seem obvious, but just for the sake of proof of discussion, can we go over each of these one by one?

mr. saturn
gooey bomb
Motion-sensor Bombs
cloaking devise
bumper
banana peel
spike ball
screw attack

also, can you turn on/off individual assist trophies/pokeballs?

 

[slartibartfast42]

I debunked the freaking SMOKE BALL! what more do you want?

anyway, all of the items you mentioned give unfairly improved edge guarding and an unfairly improved approach except for the cloaking device, which can be explained away the same way as the smoke ball. (wait, what's a spike-ball? Haven't heard of that one before)

Face it, all items either give one person a random (and therefore, unfair) advantage or are pointless objects that interfere with the game. That is why they are out. Deal with it. Rather than go through every item one-by-one, why don't you try to come up with one or two that you REALLY think wouldn't fall into one of those categories, and I'll talk about it in more depth. Oh wait, you already did; the smoke ball...

 

[Pink Reaper]

I know it may seem obvious, but just for the sake of proof of discussion, can we go over each of these one by one?

mr. saturn
gooey bomb
Motion-sensor Bombs
cloaking devise
bumper
banana peel
spike ball
screw attack

also, can you turn on/off individual assist trophies/pokeballs?

Gooey Bomb and Motion Sensor Bombs because they're bombs and will kill at very low damages.

Cloaking Device makes you invincible(you take no damage, but still take knock back)

Bumper=perfect edgeguard

Spike ball=see above

Screw attack removes all of your jumps and UpB if your off the stage

Banana Peel and Mr. Saturn aren't too bad, but they're not really worth turning on capsules(which can expload) on.

 

[PanzerOceania]

easy with the attitude man, I'm not INSANELY ADAMANT THAT WE MUST HAVE ITEMS. Hell no, so why are you being so reactive? I'm just trying to have an intelligent conversation but you won't even take the time to go through a list of 8 items. lose the attitude and behave more like the guy above

for the so called "useless" items, if the item rate was set to very low, they wouldn't crowd the level, and then we could see if they are really "useless" or not.

players are very resourceful and will take advantage of any small anomaly. don't underestimate them. You're thinking too much inside the box, and on the basis of melee.

 

[thesage]

I know it may seem obvious, but just for the sake of proof of discussion, can we go over each of these one by one?

mr. saturn
gooey bomb
Motion-sensor Bombs
cloaking devise
bumper
banana peel
spike ball
screw attack

Lol I forgot about the existence of Mr. Saturn and Banana Peel. I guess they would be allowed in item tourneys. They really don't do anything. Cloaking device would be banned cuz it's basically a star except that you can get hit. You take no damage while under it's effect. Goey bomb is exactly like a bo-omb that's delayed. It does a lot of damage too. Bumper is banned because if an opponent is off the stage and you throw it to block the ledge then they cannot recovery. Don't say it's strategy to do that. It's really not. Spike ball is retardedly powerful when thrown and set on the ground. Screw attack combos into rest. While there are regular combos into rest, this one is just too easy to do as any time you hit a jigglypuff in the air, she's basically guaranteed a rest.

also, can you turn on/off individual assist trophies/pokeballs?

No

Edit: Mr. Saturn would be turned off cause he still does a lot of damage to shields. Another reason for the spike ball to be turned off is that it sometimes activates without being thrown.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Gooey Bomb and Motion Sensor Bombs because they're bombs and will kill at very low damages.

Cloaking Device makes you invincible(you take no damage, but still take knock back)

Bumper=perfect edgeguard

Spike ball=see above

Screw attack removes all of your jumps and UpB if your off the stage

Banana Peel and Mr. Saturn aren't too bad, but they're not really worth turning on capsules(which can expload) on.

GOOEY BOMB and MOTION SENSOR BOMB --- do not explode on contact so you have to use skill to avoid them and (gooey bomb) pass off to opponent, or (motion sensor bomb) knock enemy into it.

Although using motion sensor bombs for edge gaurding is enough to disqualify it I think, I still think the hot potato aspect of the gooey bomb give the character a fair chance to try to pass it to the opponent

in two player matches it will be very obvious where they are

CLOAKING DEVISES --- forgot about that somehow, brainfart, great point, clear disqualification

BUMPER and SPIKE BALL --- thank you, good point, instant disqualification

SCREW ATTACK -- I assume you mean if someone threw it at you, and yes, good reason for disqualification

BANANA PEEL, MR SATURN, and SMOKE BOMB --- these ok so far, that is 3 items so far that don't have any DIRECT objections.

as far as exploding capsules, so is it CONFIRMED that you CANNOT turn capsules off? because I have heard both, can someone take a video of the item selection screen or something please?

I would suggest them on the lowest item setting and it would definitely mix matches up as the length of the matches went on, there is no great advantage to any of them and they are not terribly hard to avoid.

Of course this wouldn't be the only or even the definitive tournament style GOD no, but I think that using possibly these items if they are approved by enough people and possibly others if approved also in a special tournament, just like there are team play tournaments.

I just don't think there should be NO competitive tournaments with even just 1 or 3 items

thank you for at least taking the time to respond (same goes to the post before this one)

 

[thesage]

gooey bomb and motion sensor bombs do not explode on contact so you have to use skill to avoid them and (gooey bomb) pass off to opponent, or (motion sensor bomb) knock enemy into it.

Think of gooey bombs as delayed bo-ombs. Any competent player would be able to stay away from the person they just gooey bombed. This also gives slower characters even more of a disadvantage in item tournaments as not only will they have a harder time getting the gooey bomb, but they also have a hard time staying away from the person they just stuck it on or catch up to the person who stuck it on them.

I agree with the motion sensor bomb, but I recently saw a vid where the motion sensor bomb exploded for no reason. This means that a character that is trying to avoid getting hit by it has to jump super high to avoid it, which is putting you in a bad position and would essentialy divide the stage. More testing needs to be done. Characters with projectiles would also get an advantage cuz they could essentially put a motion sensor bomb next to an opponent near the edge and force them to suffer their projectile spam, as well as being able to easily clear out any motion sensor bombs on the stage. They also equal an easy edgeguard if you just put them on the edge (like on the wall).

in two player matches it will be very obvious where they are

i disagree with this though =P. Tournament matches are really intense (most of the time).

as far as exploding capsules, so is it CONFIRMED that you CANNOT turn capsules off? because I have heard both, can someone take a video of the item selection screen or something please?.

I've heard both as well, but I'm leaning more towards the you can turn them off with crates.

 

[Pink Reaper]

We need to find someone with the game cus from what I hear, you can turn crates and exploding crates off, but you can't turn off capsules at all.

 

[PanzerOceania]

@ thesage

yes, you are very correct, I thought they would be cool but if MSBs have randomly exploded they MUST be out

also you just made me think of gooey bombs, pro players would learn how long they take to explode, and then never hand it off till the last second giving the opponent no time to give it back, so yeah, they should be out too for sure.

I also agree that more testing needs to be done with ALL items, but you have made it clear to me that with massive damage items, even if there is a delay are still a bad idea.

I still would like to see how the 3 so far ok items could be used to greater good than people think so far.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Wow, yet another assault on the successful tournament format.

Item-supporters are all talk. All of the biggest, most successful tournaments were item-free. Why do you suppose that is? Set aside your 10-paragraph arguments for a minute and just look around. Why is the no-item rule always attacked on discussion level? How come no one sets out to prove a point by hosting successful item tournaments? A few months ago, I went to a scrub tournament where the rules banned character changing (had to pre-register at the start), the staff chose the stage for each round (banned stages were included), and the sets were best of 1. Guess what! Even they banned items.

I am not even going to defend the item-free rule set because defense is unneeded at this point. Items were banned in Melee. They will be banned in Brawl. Rather than sit on a forum and rally the troops, how about you actually go out and host a successful item tournament? You will discover it is much more difficult than you think to find hardcore item supporters.

Actions speak louder than words. Someone host an item tournament that draws over 100 people. Come back after you succeed there. Many people forget that the current tournament community did have items in tournaments long ago. They were banned after many attempts because they simply skewed results far too often. So, how can you (or even a hundred of you) come in and attempt to refute that with one well thought out forum post? Do you honestly believe you are more intelligent that several years of live experimentation performed by thousands of players?

Give it a rest (or go host a real tournament).

 

[KernelColonel]

TELL ME RIGHT NOW how this is not an unfair advantage:

Fox is on the left side of Final Destination. Falco is on the right. They fight in the middle for a while, getting percentages to 100ish. Suddenly, they attack and hit eachother at almost the same time, which sends them to their respective sides. Now, a bob-omb appears (or a smart bomb, or a proximity mine) appears right beside Fox. Fox gets up at the same time as Falco. Fox picks up the item while Falco starts running to try and prevent Fox from picking it up. BUT the randomness has already dictated that Fox has picked up the item and can use it, and there is nothing Falco can do.

I CHALLENGE you to tell me what is fair about that scenario.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

TELL ME RIGHT NOW how this is not an unfair advantage:

Fox is on the left side of Final Destination. Falco is on the right. They fight in the middle for a while, getting percentages to 100ish. Suddenly, they attack and hit eachother at almost the same time, which sends them to their respective sides. Now, a bob-omb appears (or a smart bomb, or a proximity mine) appears right beside Fox. Fox gets up at the same time as Falco. Fox picks up the item while Falco starts running to try and prevent Fox from picking it up. BUT the randomness has already dictated that Fox has picked up the item and can use it, and there is nothing Falco can do.

I CHALLENGE you to tell me what is fair about that scenario.

This right here is one HUGE reason as to why items are banned. If items did 10 damage with pathetic knockback, they might be legal. However, even the simple capsule is essentially a free KO. "Oh, but it takes skill to throw it and hit the opponent!" You still overlook the fact that Fox has the opportunity, and Falco is screwed.

 

[PanzerOceania]

@ Buzz


it's this close minded approach that is the problem man, maybe I will try to host some, we both know it'll take some time, but you made a good point there.

what wasn't a good point is "it's always been this way, so it always will"

melee and brawl are two different games

if you can turn off capsules then that changes EVERYTHING

of course you won't take me or my post seriously, but I have to respond to yours none the less.

as I have said, I'm not a rabid item freak, I just like to try new things, and change it up, and frankly I find it odd to see all this opposition to change when a new game has just come out. You should at least consider what has changed between the games.

yes items were banned in melee, and for good reason

some of those reasons have changed

brawl isn't even out in north america or the pal countries yet, so how can you say "items are already banned in brawl" they are not, you just want them to be.

IN CONCLUSION, -- I am not even suggesting all tourneys have items (if you even bothered to read my posts) but that tourneys with SELECT items be held as a specially tourney, like team matches, so that there is SOME item play to mix things up, but again, it's hard for you to respond to that, when you didn't READ MY POST.


as far as explosive items, I agree they should be banned, so your example is void

I am talking about smoke balls, mr. saturn, and banana peels.

 

[jellis186]

Buzz spelled it out pretty clearly. Enough theory, lets see some empirical evidence that items work.

 

[TheManaLord]

OP is an idiot to be frank.

Tons of false comparisons and false analogies.

 

[h1roshi]

this thread failed...peace

-hiro

 

[PanzerOceania]

OP is an idiot to be frank.

Tons of false comparisons and false analogies.

yes, I agree, I am talking about select tourneys with only a handful of items,

please don't put me in a group with him.

 

[-Ran]

@ Buzz

brawl isn't even out in north america or the pal countries yet, so how can you say "items are already banned in brawl" they are not, you just want them to be.

Because the people that are serious tournament goers, the one's that actually compete in every tournament they can find for money... You know, the ones that discover most of the techniques, and the ones that run the tournaments... Yea, those guys, they already have it. They've had Brawl since the moment it came out in Japan by and large, and so they've already found that Items are still unbalanced for tournament play.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Because the people that are serious tournament goers, the one's that actually compete in every tournament they can find for money... You know, the ones that discover most of the techniques, and the ones that run the tournaments... Yea, those guys, they already have it. They've had Brawl since the moment it came out in Japan by and large, and so they've already found that Items are still unbalanced for tournament play.

fair enough, could you point me to the discussion? oh? there isn't any?

this is why I am discussing here. It seems none of these people can bring themselves to this "low level" to discuss the reasons.

I'd be bold enough to say there never was this alleged discussion.

again, I am NOT for ALL ITEMS ON.

 

[Xengri]

This item tournament talk is pointless...

Buzz is right. All those who want to have items in select tournaments need to stop trying to convince people with words and show use how it would work.

Here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147060

This guy has taken the incentive to try to band you Pro-item guys together to discuss rules and host some item tournaments.

If you really want item tournaments, make it happen.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I've already played Brawl a great deal. Not much has changed. Items are just flat out unfair no matter how you slice it. I'm not suggesting that every match has to be 100% balanced no matter what, but I am suggesting that smash items give a significant advantage to whoever has easier access to it.

I am not as closed minded as you might believe. I played with items enabled for a long time. I gave them a heart-felt attempt. Again, not much has changed. Even my item-supporter friend wanted them turned off because they distract the match. I am not suggesting we disable items because "we did in Melee". I am suggesting we disable items because, just like Melee, they grant overpowered advantages to undeserving players.

 

[PanzerOceania]

@ buzz

Mr. Saturn

Smoke Bomb

Banana Peel

unfair advantage?

I value your opinion, and it would be easier for me to see your point of view, or agree, if you elaborated on the above.

 

[Kyldare]

I think that you have a valid point, however, I happen to enjoy "Bare Bones Smash", it's not the soulless gameplay that you suggest. Removing items doesn't detract from the character of the game, it just ensures that everyone is on an equal level throughout the match.

 

[-Ran]

fair enough, could you point me to the discussion? oh? there isn't any?

this is why I am discussing here. It seems none of these people can bring themselves to this "low level" to discuss the reasons.

I'd be bold enough to say there never was this alleged discussion.

again, I am NOT for ALL ITEMS ON.

Or, you could just talk with the people that have actually competed in tournaments on the forum, who echo this sentiment? More so I think it's safe to say that such 'discussions' have taken place in areas that most posts won't see. Why? Because someone who isn't going to play at the tournaments, and hasn't played at the tournaments, isn't going to have an opinion that holds any worth to them.

Personally? I feel that items don't have a place in tournaments that are meant to represent the upper aspects of play, because they are random. Regardless of what setting they are on, they are completely random in where they are placed on the field, and which ones are going to fall down during play. When an item drops, the perspective on the battle field changes. Faster characters have an inherent advantage over slower ones to pick up the items. Certain built in limitations to the characters that are shown during Tournament play are removed.

Don't have a good Smash power? Camp till X item appears.
Don't have long range? Camp till X item appears.
And so on.

Items are a promise of possibility which provides a reason to camp in a situation that otherwise would be worthless. Tournament play is all about weeding out campers and cheap tactics/ethics/powers.

In a 1vs1 in tournament play, let's say you're two stocks behind, and you're at 150%. In a normal situation, you're boned. There's very, very little you can do to make a comeback. All it takes is one or two smashes, and you're going to be off the map. In most Melee tournament maps, you have no place to hide, and no help to rely on. This is how tournaments are played. Every choice you make is important...

Now, add in 'almost every map' into the circle, and now you have far more chances to camp in this situation [Hyrule effect]... More so, with items you have a -reason- to camp. Your help could be only a few seconds a way, now if only you could hold out for the random drop to fall in your favor. All in all, it isn't the style of combat that tournaments promote. When I found out that all of the major companies that are hosting release tournaments have items on, and timed matches, I shed a small tear. =p

PS: It took me two hours to actually post this... go go server. >>

 

[PanzerOceania]

I think that you have a valid point, however, I happen to enjoy "Bare Bones Smash", it's not the soulless gameplay that you suggest. Removing items doesn't detract from the character of the game, it just ensures that everyone is on an equal level throughout the match.

I don't think you were talking to me, but I'll reply anyways

I too appreciate no item play

I think minimal item play could be appreciated as a side tournament, much as team matches are, but still be enjoyed by pros.

Variety is the spice of life, and I wouldn't want to see itemless matches go either.

Don't have a good Smash power? Camp till X item appears.
Don't have long range? Camp till X item appears.
And so on.

Items are a promise of possibility which provides a reason to camp in a situation that otherwise would be worthless. Tournament play is all about weeding out campers and cheap tactics/ethics/powers.

In a 1vs1 in tournament play, let's say you're two stocks behind, and you're at 150%. In a normal situation, you're boned. There's very, very little you can do to make a comeback. All it takes is one or two smashes, and you're going to be off the map. In most Melee tournament maps, you have no place to hide, and no help to rely on. This is how tournaments are played. Every choice you make is important...

Now, add in 'almost every map' into the circle, and now you have far more chances to camp in this situation [Hyrule effect]... More so, with items you have a -reason- to camp. Your help could be only a few seconds a way, now if only you could hold out for the random drop to fall in your favor. All in all, it isn't the style of combat that tournaments promote. When I found out that all of the major companies that are hosting release tournaments have items on, and timed matches, I shed a small tear. =p

PS: It took me two hours to actually post this... go go server. >>

first off, thank you for taking the time to REALLY reply, I appreciate that alone very much.

secondly you make many good points, many of which I agree with.

The ones I think should be used are ones that would not give enough reward for camping, they could be used slightly, but would not give you a big enough motivation to try to run away, and if we are playing on small maps, there IS nowhere to hide.

placement is random, but with said items the advantage just isn't that great.

it mixes things up yes, but it doesn't necessarily break them (with said items)

again, this would be a specialty side to tourneys like team matches

so far the items are

smoke bomb
banana peel
Mr. Saturn

I understand it really comes down to preference, and if I want to play like this, I need only host games like this, and I understand that. I just thought maybe you guys wouldn't mind considering it, or trying a few rounds of it at home to see what you think?

those three items only, no crates, no capsules, low item setting, stock match

try like 15 matches like that and see if there is really any benefit from camping away, or better yet just play on battlefield or final destination where you can't really camp.

surely the gameplay will be different, but I doubt it will be drastically different.

again this isn't to replace the main event, but more to see if this could be a specialty side event at tourneys competitively

could this be competitive? will you try just for the hell of it?

after that I don't care what the majority does, I'm going to try it myself when I actually get the game, maybe I won't even like it, but I think we need to keep suggesting and trying things.

I love playing competitively, and I love to find many different ways to play competitively, and I understand that some things, like certain stages and items, damage competitive play, but as of now, i do not think that the items stated above detract in any way from competitive play.