Sephi_hatu
Smash Apprentice
The above statement has likely been made before. Im perfectly aware that this post may fall on deaf ears, but I'd rather people read my thoughts, than not share them at all.
The manner in which tournaments are conducted in smash is flawed. The issue does not lie with wave dashing, or advanced techniques or whether we should use the smash ball or not. The problem is the choice to not use items at all.
Lets look at the melee 1v1 tournament format. Thats 4 stock, no items, limited stages. Stock makes sense, its there to keep people fighting each other, instead of running away like they could in timed matches. Limited stages is also reasonable. Nobody wants to play on icicle mountain. Then theres items. They're deemed 'unfair' and 'too random' and 'can tilt play in favor of one player'.
Heres the reality.
Items can be equated to 'supers' in Street Fighter. They're moves that cant just be pulled of at the press of a button. Certain conditions before-hand must be met before being able to use them. In Street Fighter, the super meter has to be filled up to execute a super move. In Smash you have to wait for an item to spawn to use the item. In both games, in order for the use of item/super to be successful you must set it up or use the item/super wisely. It takes skill to properly employ an item. Having an item does not make you god. It doesnt give you a distinct advantage. Its like saying that falcon punch is unfair. If you stand in front of a falcon punch and dont move, you deserve to get hit by a falcon punch. Taking items out of a game that is specifically designed to have items in it is like taking super moves out of street fighter. Sure you can do it, but its not the way its supposed to be played. The object of the tourny is to find out whos the best at Smash, not that best at What I Say Smash Is. We should be playing Sakurai's Smash Bros, not Bare Bones Smash Bros.
Of course an argument can be made for several obvious items. Healing items, containers, hammers, pokeballs, and invincible stars. Those items hardly encompass 'all items' though.
So, to summarize the above. Items are not 'unfair' (with a few exceptions). They are meant to be used, and are just as legitimate as supers in 2d fighting games.
Obviously, its a little late for melee tournys to change format, so heres what I hope the Brawl tournament format will look like:
Stock. Most of the stages. Healing items, hammers, pokeballs, and invincible stars (and any other obviously broken items that Im not aware of) off. All other items on. Containers are fine now because fake ones are marked.
What say you?
Edit: Crap. This should be in tourny discussion.
Edit2: Concepts that have arisen since posting.
Supers aren't random. (Points out somone)
I used super meters to be simplistic. I didnt want to get into explaining all the mechanincs of Guilty Gear. There are as many as 4 meters going at once in that game. Sometimes more with different chars. The chances of having the same conditions any 2 times in that type of environment are very random.
Concept of risk reward when getting an item.
Somone attests that grabbing an item isnt risky. Its an almost 0 frame maneuver. However, you have to stop whatever you are already doing to get the item, leaving yourself open to attack. That is the risk, the item is the reward.
Edit 3:
Some people seem to be thinking Im saying that super meters (or any meters for that matter) are completely random. Im fully aware that they are not. Im saying that they're a system that can be compared to items. They have equivalent merits and equivalent payoffs. In regards to my bringing up guilty gear, Im just saying that the meters in that game prevent things from happening to many times. Keep play from becoming stale. Making things more complex. Complex to the point that, to a random bystander, things are happening randomly.
Also, on the topic of 'people playing for money dont want there chances of winning ruined by a random item'. Problem with that logic is that if somone pays to enter a tournament where items are on, they cant really complain about losing with items. Everyones agreed to play with them.
And to those who say if I want to play with items on, I should host my own tournament: My goal is not to splinter the smash community. We should all adhere to one standard. Smash doesnt get anywhere without a unified standard. Starcraft is sport in korea. Theres no major dissent among the fans with how starcraft should be played, even though it has a greater amount of customizable options than SSB. Smash isnt going anywhere if we dont all agree on it.
Alot of people glossed over me saying that melee is melee and melee wont be changing. However, Brawl is a clean slate. I put my ideas out there so that I could affect how Brawl is played, not melee.
Finally, heres a nice thread people should look at: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146646
The manner in which tournaments are conducted in smash is flawed. The issue does not lie with wave dashing, or advanced techniques or whether we should use the smash ball or not. The problem is the choice to not use items at all.
Lets look at the melee 1v1 tournament format. Thats 4 stock, no items, limited stages. Stock makes sense, its there to keep people fighting each other, instead of running away like they could in timed matches. Limited stages is also reasonable. Nobody wants to play on icicle mountain. Then theres items. They're deemed 'unfair' and 'too random' and 'can tilt play in favor of one player'.
Heres the reality.
Items can be equated to 'supers' in Street Fighter. They're moves that cant just be pulled of at the press of a button. Certain conditions before-hand must be met before being able to use them. In Street Fighter, the super meter has to be filled up to execute a super move. In Smash you have to wait for an item to spawn to use the item. In both games, in order for the use of item/super to be successful you must set it up or use the item/super wisely. It takes skill to properly employ an item. Having an item does not make you god. It doesnt give you a distinct advantage. Its like saying that falcon punch is unfair. If you stand in front of a falcon punch and dont move, you deserve to get hit by a falcon punch. Taking items out of a game that is specifically designed to have items in it is like taking super moves out of street fighter. Sure you can do it, but its not the way its supposed to be played. The object of the tourny is to find out whos the best at Smash, not that best at What I Say Smash Is. We should be playing Sakurai's Smash Bros, not Bare Bones Smash Bros.
Of course an argument can be made for several obvious items. Healing items, containers, hammers, pokeballs, and invincible stars. Those items hardly encompass 'all items' though.
So, to summarize the above. Items are not 'unfair' (with a few exceptions). They are meant to be used, and are just as legitimate as supers in 2d fighting games.
Obviously, its a little late for melee tournys to change format, so heres what I hope the Brawl tournament format will look like:
Stock. Most of the stages. Healing items, hammers, pokeballs, and invincible stars (and any other obviously broken items that Im not aware of) off. All other items on. Containers are fine now because fake ones are marked.
What say you?
Edit: Crap. This should be in tourny discussion.
Edit2: Concepts that have arisen since posting.
Supers aren't random. (Points out somone)
I used super meters to be simplistic. I didnt want to get into explaining all the mechanincs of Guilty Gear. There are as many as 4 meters going at once in that game. Sometimes more with different chars. The chances of having the same conditions any 2 times in that type of environment are very random.
Concept of risk reward when getting an item.
Somone attests that grabbing an item isnt risky. Its an almost 0 frame maneuver. However, you have to stop whatever you are already doing to get the item, leaving yourself open to attack. That is the risk, the item is the reward.
Edit 3:
Some people seem to be thinking Im saying that super meters (or any meters for that matter) are completely random. Im fully aware that they are not. Im saying that they're a system that can be compared to items. They have equivalent merits and equivalent payoffs. In regards to my bringing up guilty gear, Im just saying that the meters in that game prevent things from happening to many times. Keep play from becoming stale. Making things more complex. Complex to the point that, to a random bystander, things are happening randomly.
Also, on the topic of 'people playing for money dont want there chances of winning ruined by a random item'. Problem with that logic is that if somone pays to enter a tournament where items are on, they cant really complain about losing with items. Everyones agreed to play with them.
And to those who say if I want to play with items on, I should host my own tournament: My goal is not to splinter the smash community. We should all adhere to one standard. Smash doesnt get anywhere without a unified standard. Starcraft is sport in korea. Theres no major dissent among the fans with how starcraft should be played, even though it has a greater amount of customizable options than SSB. Smash isnt going anywhere if we dont all agree on it.
Alot of people glossed over me saying that melee is melee and melee wont be changing. However, Brawl is a clean slate. I put my ideas out there so that I could affect how Brawl is played, not melee.
Finally, heres a nice thread people should look at: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146646
