The Sheik Matchup Thread (read the OP noobs)

[Kira-]

do falco next

edit - and more m2k advice ty

 

[Teczer0]

do falco next

edit - and more m2k advice ty

No offense but like... why are you expecting us to be able to give you advice that m2k can give?

None of us are nearly as good as m2k, its hard to say what he is going to say if we don't have his experience.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No offense but like... why are you expecting us to be able to give you advice that m2k can give?

None of us are nearly as good as m2k, its hard to say what he is going to say if we don't have his experience.

>_>

Just because M2K has an amazing Sheik does NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT render all of the other Sheik players that populate these boards obsolete. Not in the least. They have experience too, not to mention knowledge of the character.

These guys have helped me out a lot. I think you should give them a chance too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Teczer0]

m2k rarely posts in the melee forums nowadays anyway.

Honestly if you want m2k advice going to m2k is much much faster.

 

[soap]

m2k just spams spacing.

its not that deep

 

[nicaboy]

>_>

Just because M2K has an amazing Sheik does NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT render all of the other Sheik players that populate these boards obsolete. Not in the least. They have experience too, not to mention knowledge of the character.

These guys have helped me out a lot. I think you should give them a chance too.

Smooth Criminal

right.......

 

[Smooth Criminal]

right.......

Oh snap.

South Florida?

Where you at in South Florida, son? I'm gonna have to show you how much my Sheik improved.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KirbyKaze]

*wallows in Sheik board drama*

Mmmmm bagels

Hi Smooth

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hai KK.

I miss you and the rest of Canada. Been almost two years since I've seen you guys.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kira-]

Anyone want to MM at Genesis?

No offense but like... why are you expecting us to be able to give you advice that m2k can give?

None of us are nearly as good as m2k, its hard to say what he is going to say if we don't have his experience.

I'm not. You guys quoted M2K, I figured there would be more where that came from

>_>

Just because M2K has an amazing Sheik does NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT render all of the other Sheik players that populate these boards obsolete. Not in the least. They have experience too, not to mention knowledge of the character.

These guys have helped me out a lot. I think you should give them a chance too.

His advice tends to be more universal. At the very least, anything he's said has almost immediately helped my game, there's no reason not to want more of that advice.

I won't disregard advice anyone else gives, but it's usually your basic stuff to help out the beginning sheiks (what to do out of grabs, how to edgeguard, etc). I realize that there is something to be learned from everyone, regardless of skill level

 

[Teczer0]

Most of our advice are from our knowledge.

I don't really talk to m2k too much about sheik because it seems like he lost his will to play ever since mango ***** him or something.

 

[idea]

KK posting

M2K would tell you to push buttons and win against Peach (being serious) so there's your M2K advice for that matchup

He doesn't tell people much for anything past Fox / Sheik / Falco / Marth and sometimes he complains about Jigglypuff

 

[Teczer0]

KK posting

M2K would tell you to push buttons and win against Peach (being serious) so there's your M2K advice for that matchup

He doesn't tell people much for anything past Fox / Sheik / Falco / Marth and sometimes he complains about Jigglypuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6410193&postcount=15

 

[nicaboy]

Oh snap.

South Florida?

Where you at in South Florida, son? I'm gonna have to show you how much my Sheik improved.

Smooth Criminal

coconut creek borward county. I will be there later this month me and my bro graduating so ya. Its been like a year man I miss you no homo. Ya please do show me how much better you got I look forward to it remember your the man who took me to my first tourney

*wallows in Sheik board drama*

Mmmmm bagels

Hi Smooth

nobdy likes you shut up.
oh wait I like you

 

[KirbyKaze]

nobdy likes you shut up.
oh wait I like you

incorrect as i like me

 

[nicaboy]

I was just playing. LOL.
on topic where the jigs info at?

 

[Teczer0]

Guide on fighting Puff with Sheik:

Go on AIM and ask m2k, he always beats the puffs.

Spoiler

With the exception of nearly half his fights against puff

 

[soap]

i thought m2k legitimately had puff problems.

then mango ***** him with falco.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

mango told me to nair to approach v falco and it *****

so do it

m2k also said nair, frame perfect, ***** falco's shield pressure

armed with those things, along with the usual things sheik does v falco, and falco is ez. i definitely think sheik v falco is easier than sheik v fox.

 

[Plairnkk]

yeah frame perfect nair ***** falcos shield unless they double shine. and when they do and you have the bad habit of trying to do it, you get *****.

see--> plank v evilnemesis. -.-

 

[soap]

can sheiks frame perfect nair oos beat falcos frame perfect shine nair?

 

[AlcyoNite]

can sheiks frame perfect nair oos beat falcos frame perfect shine nair?

I was under the impression that you had to wait until after the shine

am i wrong? or are u not asking that question?

 

[idea]

kk: depends on when they do the dair

 

[soap]

i was asking:

falco does late dair on shield. shine.

can i nair out of shield before he fade away nairs out of shine?

assuming we are both frame perfect?

u would need to know the hitstun, jump, and move frame data.

 

[KirbyKaze]

no, it doesn't work if he does it early

here's the work

asdf ****ing soap makes me do work

falco's stuff
for those reading it's
hitlag shieldstun
07 14 Neutral Air
07 14 Down Air
05 10 Down-B

and his jump takes

Jump: airborne on frame 6

so yeah if he late dairs into shine there's no way in hell you can do anything, you're locked the entire time for 7 frames of hitlag, while he spends 9 to l-cancel, which means you have 2 frames to do... stuff... with. not enough to do anything besides sidestep, so just sit there and wait for the shine.

so then he does

shine
instant nair

and moves away from you?

5 frames of stun on shield collectively and his jump takes 5 frames to complete (airborne on frame 6) and then his nair starts on frame 4

N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

if i'm reading this right then if he does rising nair out of the shine while drifting away from you, you don't have enough time to catch him with nair out of shield or basically anything

diagram looks something like
green = shieldstun
red = no shieldstun

1 shine, hitlag
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 hitlag
6
7
8 start jump
9
10
11
12
13 airborne, start nair
14 start nair
15 start nair
16 nair hitbox

the significance of the dair is that it comes out 1 frame later than nair, so there'd be a gap of 6 frames, which is (if perfect) enough to nair oos on falco pressure. however, i still wouldn't advise it.

 

[AlcyoNite]

no, it doesn't work if he does it early

here's the work

asdf ****ing soap makes me do work

falco's stuff
for those reading it's
hitlag shieldstun
07 14 Neutral Air
07 14 Down Air
05 10 Down-B

and his jump takes

Jump: airborne on frame 6

so yeah if he late dairs into shine there's no way in hell you can do anything, you're locked the entire time for the while 7 frames

so then he does

shine
instant nair

and moves away from you?

5 frames of stun on shield collectively and his jump takes 5 frames to complete (airborne on frame 6) and then his nair starts on frame 4

N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

if i'm reading this right then if he does rising nair out of the shine while drifting away from you, you don't have enough time to catch him with nair out of shield or basically anything

diagram looks something like
green = shieldstun
red = no shieldstun

1 shine, hitlag
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 hitlag
6 start jump
7
8
9
10
11 airborne, start nair
12 start nair
13 start nair
14 nair hitbox

or something like that

you can't do it on dair either, you just add another frame of startup on nair because his dair comes out frame 5

so if falco early aerials after shine, don't do anything

i'd advise not doing anything anyways most of the time because they can all multishine now anyway; wait for them to push you away from them or something because otherwise you're just asking for trouble.

This is depressing. So, now I shouldn't nair oos? Or should I just look to see if the falco can perfectly pillar --> nair or multishine?

 

[KirbyKaze]

nah just hope he's dumb

it works most of the time

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not. You guys quoted M2K, I figured there would be more where that came from

His advice tends to be more universal. At the very least, anything he's said has almost immediately helped my game, there's no reason not to want more of that advice.

I won't disregard advice anyone else gives, but it's usually your basic stuff to help out the beginning sheiks (what to do out of grabs, how to edgeguard, etc). I realize that there is something to be learned from everyone, regardless of skill level

M2K general advice is mostly just "do this, it will kill them if they do this" and it's good for those situations.

Trouble is, he doesn't post much.

 

[soap]

thanks KK.

i had a feeling that was the case.

just wanted to confirm that it wasnt just me failing at timing

 

[KirbyKaze]

I actually got the data wrong.

I forgot it takes Falco 3 frames to jump out of his shine (he cancels it on frame 4).

So I've updated it.

If Falco late Dair Shine early Dairs you can Nair OoS if you're completely perfect. I don't recommend it, though. Also, the gap on Nair is shorter by one frame, so it doesn't work (5 frame gap vs 6 frame gap).

I also rechecked my SDM data, Falco L-cancels for 9 frames instead of what I thought (7). So if he late Dairs your shield into Shine, there's 2 frames of freedom. Not enough to do anything with, except maybe buffer sidestep or something, but still worthy of note I guess? You still can't counterattack during that time or really do anything crazy

You can't roll on it either. Apparently there's 3 frames of vulnerability during roll startup. So you'll actually get hit if you try to buffer roll on late Dair --> Shine.

Dayuummmm Falco. 22 good.

edit: This answers many questions about shield-stab that I had. An incredible amount. Holy ****.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

So when is the next match up information going to be compiled? Any decisions on which character?

Not rushin you KK as I know it is time consuming, just curious.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I work full time now so probably tonight.

I'm going to do Falco because he's harder than her other matchups.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

That is what I was hoping you'd do. Yes!

Main issue for me: how to counter falco's crazy control and pressure.

I'll read the match up first and post any other questions that are unanswered.

 

[soap]

You can't roll on it either. Apparently there's 3 frames of vulnerability during roll startup. So you'll actually get hit if you try to buffer roll on late Dair --> Shine.
.

ya, im familiar with that.

i used to get pissed, like wtf i buffered. buffering should magically work i thought

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeah falco's gay

surprisingly, we actually don't have much matchup information on him beyond the obvious stuff

 

[KirbyKaze]

NTSC Sheik vs Falco

It's like fighting Fox in that there's the easy mode half of it, and then the hard mode half of it. And we're awesome in that we get to do the sticky, nasty, gay hard part first. Low percents against space animals are dumb.

Lasers

Basically, it's agreed that onstage fighting against Falco has four components. The first of these, is getting inside him. Falco lasers are very good. Because of this, it is difficult for you to directly compete with his ground game (though it's possible to do so; Sheik's too good). However, it's far easier to simply do good aerial and platform work and approach from there. Sheik's aerials are all blessedly more ranged than Falco's, and come with more priority (usually). So her aerial game is actually quite good against him.

The below isn't new information, but just a compilation of strategies gone over in previous threads for getting through Falco's gun.

Nair over lasers.

Dash attack under lasers.

Powershield.

Full jump Fair.

Needles from platforms or simple platform dashes. Aerials from platform.

SH FF Waveland.

WD out of shield.

Just keep in mind your goal is not to be right in Falco's face, just a bit away from it (see Mogwai's thing in the Falco boards on being better with Falco and it'll have the laser spacing strategy that counters laser spacing somewhere in it and learn it), and remember that when you're moving around those lasers Matrix-style with sleek ninja amazingness.

I swear this topic has been covered 10000 times.

You have a lot of ways to work through his pistol. Sheik's nice and diverse. On low lasers, basic jump-based strategies like doing Nair over lasers, SH FF wavelands, and platform dashes are all good for making your way towards him. For high lasers, you're fortunate that Sheik's dash is low, her crouch (in Wavedash is low), and her dash attack ducks her too. In addition to these, we also come with generic strategies (powershielding and waveshielding) that work well with Sheik's good "stats" (her big shield and fast wavedash).

Falco Shield Pressure

Falco has very good pressure.

When Falco hits your shield, unless he hits high on your shield, you cannot usually do anything about his Dair Shine portion of shield pressure. A common mistake is that people try to grab the 8 or 9 frames in between Falco's medium-level Dair Shine on shield, and then they get Shined for a lot of damage. If you know and learned the timing, good, but otherwise it's advisable to get out of there.

After the Dair --> Shine portion, you have a few good countermeasures. After Shining, Falco has the following immediate options to continue pressure:

1) Multishine
2) Early aerial
3) Middle aerial
4) Late aerial
5) Grab

TO BE CONTINUED AT A LATER TIME

Percentages

The next chunk of onstage is the percentage game. What applies to Fox applies here, largely, in that you have to be careful with tilts and jabs against him until a certain point, as these are ccable and punishable. The same applies largely for D-smash, only it's less spammable (read Drephen's thing near the bottom). Against Fox, you arguably have more options because he's a lot lighter. Falco's crouch lasts him longer. So you do aerials and focus on getting grabs for longer. Fox might break his CC at 30 - 35, Falco is more like 50 - 55.

After that percentage, though, your options, like against Fox, become somewhat better (although he will still attempt to constrict them as much as possible with his laser and your CC game is largely useless in terms of counterattack because of Dair, Shine, Lasers, and even simple low Nair --> Shine). F-tilt will knock over. Aerials will knock over. Dash Attack will largely be unpunishable if it hits and will likely combo (instead of doing 10 to him and comboing you for 40). Once he's at that percent, a lot of stuff will start working better. Your anti-laser options, therefore, expand, and you gain a lot of good ground against him especially for ground-loving Sheiks. Aerial heavy Sheiks will notice this change less.

What to do inside Falco

Once you're inside him, your goal is just pressure until you can grab or knock him over (which is why getting him to the percent where you can knock him over with bitch damage from needles, spaced aerials, grabs (though not to be depended on because it's a space animal), and other stuff is important.

How you do this is largely irrelevant. Sheik's pressure is stupid good. Standing and waiting is good. SH Fairs on their shield that are spaced to avoid counterattack, in the hopes of baiting an action out of shield is good. Moving around intelligently is good. You have plenty of things that are good. Just do not be stupid, don't get tricked, and pay attention to your opponent. What they're doing is more important than what you're doing, largely.

In terms of actual tech chasing, same rules apply to Fox. Only remember that tilts knock him over (if he's ASDIing down and not CCing) at like 32 instead of 26 and so forth and so on. Percentages are a bit higher because he's fatter.

More information below. Most of the information was taken from these sources.

Falco: 40%: Falco's gay.

Grabs: Refer to fox

Edgeguarding: Refer to fox

Approaching and priority: Here's where this matchup differs than fox, due to Falco's ability to SHL. One of the most important things for someone to be able to do against Falco is to consistently Powershield. The easiest way to powershield is if you are running at the person, and right before the laser hits you, slam your shield down. Effectively mastering this ruins the falco's shl almost completely. Aside from that, just try to stay off the ground if the Falco is spamming lasers. Waveland off platforms into aerials, space aerials into their shield, etc. The main thing you have to accept about this matchup is that FALCO WILL USUALLY BE IN CONTROL. The thing is, though, once you get the upperhand, you need to try to stay on them, and pressure them. Once you get a falco off the edge, you don't want them back on. His recovery is so poor basically any letting them back on is a mistake. Sheik needs to be aggressive against falco and once she gets a hold of him, never let go. Don't crouch cancel much against falco, his D-air goes right through it. Never try to shield grab a decent falco, it just sets you up for a combo. Roll away before the shine its. Also, if you stand there when the falco hits your shield and then shines,what does the falco always do right after? Jump and Dair again. So you can just wait for the falco to Dair-->shine, then as soon as the falco shines jump out of your shield with a quick nair and knock the falco away.

Di'ing vs. Falco: Mainly against falco you are going to want to DI the initial shine away, and you can escape all combos. However if you don't and are stuck in a pillar combo, make sure you tech when you hit the ground. Don't Mash the tech button, though, because if you press the tech button at the wrong time, you can't tech for the next 1 second of game play, most people get ***** by falco because they dont know that. Di' falco's Fsmash Up and slightly in if you get it, you can live to ~150% if they try to punish your up+b with fsmash.

Vids and Examples: I have a few videos up from about 4 months ago when I wasn't nearly as good as I am now. However, they still somewhat show how i play against Fox/falco, so i'd watch them if you have questions on either matchup. They have some little tricks and stuff that are good to know. I'll have newer vids up soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MklTue0Tcrc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZoyls_Bywo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yuo7ytpjc

falco is my best matchup, carried over from ganon lol.
nair oos isnt as good as you make it to be, at least against good falco's. its not going to beat the dair but it beats out falco's nair if timed correctly. sheiks grab is also madd broken, you can grab the shine easily once you get the timing right.
at low percents its better just to grab and techase with d smash or more grabs, make sure you dont dash attack before 30%, against shiz and chops that cc shine =50%.

Ive recently been using dtilt alot against falco, when they try to laser up from the ledge it gets them alot of the time(which you can continue with a slap), its also great to cc get-up attacks while you dtilt them.

lol k

lol first off my style is wayyyyyyyyyyyy different from normal sheiks especially against space animals so if you play "normal" sheik style go to plank's guide. Lots of useful stuff in there.

FOX - First thing i do is concentrate on racking up percent. You cant do anything against them if they are at 0%. I don't recommend you use needles to do this because even if you hit them with a single needle, fox is toooo fast and you will probably get hit by a neutral air or something. 12% vs 3% is not in your favor.

So i have 3 things constantly in my mind. 1.) Grab 2.) Dash attack 3.) Predict there jump with a f-air. It all really depends on what style the fox is in.

For example - LuninSpectra,tink,cobol,most foxes on east coast - they are jumpy foxes. About 75% of the time when they are shielding they will jump out of it. So counter this by throwing f-airs above their head

Chillindude, PC, m2k(kinda) - they are ground foxes. They usually dance dash around the stage and shield looking for a grab most of the time. You can counter this with either follwing their dashing and do a dash attack(watch out for their counter attack if they are at 0%) or try to predict when they put their shield up and grabbing them. A good trick to do is to just keeping jabbing them untill they put up their shield then go for the grab(if they catch on and start sidestepping thats when you start up the downsmashing)

After you racked up some percent 30%-and onward. Thats when you start downsmashing. Unlike Falco, you can downsmash through ANY of fox's moves. You will trade hits with all of his aerials so start spamming away. Be careful when spamming downsmash too much though, they will wait for it and then run in for the grab (chillin lovvvvveeesss to do this.)

Ledgeguaring - Im a big ***** when its comes to this(im not as risky as KDJ/plank). I usually just wait on the edge and wait for them to over-b/up-b and downsmash if they miss the sweet spot (its really hard for them to sweet spot so dont be afraid to do it everytime except on yoshi story, doesnt work there). I will usually throw out a needle first if they are parallel with me and the stage then go for the downsmash.

This method isnt the flashiest thing ever. But it is safe and wont get yourself killed.

Dash attack - Usually you can always combo from dash attack to dash attack on space animals, Its all situational but you can usually do 2-3 dash attacks in a row depending on which way they DI.
If they DI away - dash attack again.
If they DI neutral f-tilt.
IF they DI away at high % - Go for the f-air
If they DI neutral at high % - Go for the tipper up smash. Kills at like 110% on most stages.

Tech chasing(yeahyuzzzz) - K it really is all about reading your opponent. One thing most people dont do is look at the personality of their opponent. You can tell what Silent Wolf is gonna versus that of chillindudeate2much. If you are playing someone who is always gonna be for the most flashiest/technical stuff versus someone who plans things out before they act.

If you are playing the "I'm technical so i really need to do is shine a bunch and i win" kind of person, out of a grab they will almost always tech roll away. They will usually do this 2-3 more time until they start catching on, so you can try and go for a grab and continue the chase. After that 3rd time they will probably just lay there expecting you to run again, so just do a downsmash. Really its just getting inside your opponents head and predicting what they are gonna do next.

If you are playing the "i'm gonna actually think about what im going to do next" kind of person, then you need to be careful. If you are not sure what they are gonna do next always just react to what they are gonna do and downsmash. Just get the percent in a get the **** outta there.

FALCO - Apply pretty much everything with fox with a few exceptions.

Do not downsmash spam. Falco's down-air wrecks it so dont do it. One thing i do(especially against Mathos) is too dash attack right when they jump for their short hop laser. Gotta get the percent in on falco so you can actually combo. DO NOT TRY TO OUT CAMP FALCO, IT DOESN'T WORK. Stay aggressive and dont let the guy breath.

Also, if you get a jumpy down air falco, use an up air as he is jumping up before he can use the down air. They will change their style if you get them with this a bunch.

With falco i actually go for the gay kills. I use two ways to gimp them.

1.) Back throw then immediately throw out a back air. The length of time of a back air is long so chances are they will run into it. From there finish up the job by either back airing from the ledge or f-airing them.
2.) Act like you are gonna go out there and then wait at the ledge and downsmash them. They are gonna be so worried about being gimped that they are not gonna sweet spot. Finishing up the stock the same way.




Well this is my bible when it comes to fox/falco. Hope it helps someone out there. Sorry for the poor organization, i just rambled and typed whatever i was thinking.

EDIT: this will be finished later

post stuff i should add

if previous sections were unsatisfactory i will update them

i noticed i don't have much on anti-fox pressure and i think i should probably add that

 

[Teczer0]

I wish I knew as much as Dave.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It doesn't help.

SOAP YOU MOTHER****ING JEWBAG MESSAGE ME ON AIM AND TELL ME YOUR PEACH **** THAT YOU LEARNED FROM FIGHTING VIDJO OR I WILL EAT YOUR CHILDREN AND BITE OFF YOUR WANG

edit: Sorry Kira, no M2K advice could be found. I remember him saying SH Nair over Falco approaches to make them win and Nair OoS but beyond those, there's not much information on the matchup from him.

 

[soap]

omg lol, what r u talking about?

leave my **** alone

edit - o ya, i do remember leaving a youtube comment saying i had stuff to tell u.

(um...your'e not on aim)

 

[soap]

o ya, i had a new trick for falco.

If u r on opposite sides of stage: Jump, double jump, this baits him into full hop/dj laser

u fastfall charge to evade the high lasers, then release when u land and your multiple needles go through his last laser and hit him.