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The Sheik Matchup Thread (read the OP noobs)

KirbyKaze

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Our QnA is just too all-encompassing for one QnA thread. Similarly, we have too much information spread out between Drephen's thread, Brickman's thread, Plank's guide, and the QnA thread and a lot of information on stuff, consequently, is difficult to find or inconvenient to do so.

In order to counter this, I am setting up this thread in the hopes that people will migrate matchup information away from the General QnA that Teczero setup so it can be used for - you know - General QnA stuff, and so this one can be used for matchups to keep this board more organized. Additionally, it is my hopes that this will prevent "HOW DOES EYE FAITE FAWKES WIT SHEEK HE'S A BOOGERFACE" type threads from popping up (although we've been pretty good about that recently <3 Sheik boards <3).

So yeah, for now this is just placeholder while I root around looking for information to toss in here from the various threads. If someone would like to assist, that would be awesome.

On that note, I can only speak for NTSC. If someone from PAL wants to contribute PAL matchup changes or differences, I would be more than happy to add them to this thread. This is supposed to be information reserve / discussion anyways so if you have stuff to contribute then go for it.

edit: Before anyone tells me most of this information is ripped from other people, it is. I know. That's why I'm adding the posts where most of this information comes from, unless it's one-liners or something in which case I'm just crediting them somewhere in the general information section anyways.


Sheik vs Sheik (Will Need Revision at later time)
[URL="http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7463704&postcount=14"]Sheik vs Fox (Will Need Revision at later time)
[/URL]
Sheik vs Falco (WIP)

 

KirbyKaze

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NTSC Sheik vs Sheik

NTSC Sheik Ditto Matchup Thing

good general advice from neighborhoodp and soap is to not go for grab all the time because of the reward; just play like you normally would against a sheik and then when you do grab do the chain grab.

cc dash grab is very good against her f-tilt / d-tilt.

you will get ***** for just trying to grab and being dumb about it. just because there's a big reward on grab doesn't mean it's any easier to get, and it's still just as punishable as usual if you miss only they also get a big reward.

in general it's safer to be on the ground in sheik dittos. being airborne has advantages, but there's a big risk of dd grab, dd boost grab, and dd dash attack. or even simple f-tilt spacing. safety first. spaced aerials are always good, but being grounded is less likely to be punished (and when you're grounded you can cc, and cc is ridiculously amazing and fixes a lot of errors).

for more general advice from the below, d-tilt is good, anything that combos into grab is good, grab in general is good (but don't get tempted to spam it) and so is crouching.

beyond that it mostly boils down to spacing and being smart. no real specific things for combos. punish them when they commit to anything if you can, otherwise be patient and keep yourself safe. being safe is very important because you will die very fast for your mistakes, cg or not.

chain grab information

sheik can chain grab herself from (according to plank) 0 - high 70s without platform interference.

to regrab sheik at low percent from d-throw if they di away you have to standing dash grab very very quickly. you do this by slamming the control stick towards them and immediately hitting grab, producing a dash grab in place with no large puff of smoke behind you (that you'd produce from a complete dash). you have to be very precise with this, and very fast.

non-chain grab information

in non-cg you can turn-around u-tilt if they don't di or di behind you and **** them for a long time.

d-throw f-tilt isn't bad for trying to pseudo-combo another grab if they di away at low percent (<10). this is because they will land after the f-tilt if they di away and you will have the chance to grab them or react to whatever they use to defend themselves. the catch is that if you mess up, they get to do stuff or you get nothing. for this reason, p and others recommend fairs or d-smashes. fairs can be used in the same way.

at about 25 (prior to throw) you can link dash attack after d-throw if you're fast and do stuff from there. d-throw dash attack is very good.


Here let me summarize Sheik vs Sheik.

1) bait them into Fairing your shield

2) wait for either a jab or dodge which 90% of people do immediately afterwords

3) shield + CC grab, ull either grab after the dodge or CC the jab then grab immediately.

now enemy sheik is screwed. If the enemy sheik chooses to Fair -> grab right away or Fair -> roll or Fair -> down smash, then this doesn't work, but this is a good strategy to START with anyway, since most everyone either jabs or dodges right away, expecting an immediate shield grab.
Sheik: 50% Sheik dittos! Oh, gotta love those! Ha, well basically Sheik dittos can be broken down very simply.

Grabs: Chain grab, Sheik can chaingrab Sheik from about 0-90% if no platforms intrude. If the opponent DI's off the ledge, you can fall off and F-air them and then hop back on the ledge for an edgeguard. Though it's lame, people are going to do it to you, so get used to it. At the% which they can escape, do an aerial to get them off the edge. If you don't want to grab, do the standard Dthrow-->ftilt-->fair and just combo from there.

Edgeguarding: Sheik is one of the only characters you actually DON'T want to really go out after. In a few select situations you can hit her before she's invulnerable, but mainly just stay on the ledge and make her use her up+b onto the stage. If sheik lands back on the floor of the stage, you can grab and do a combo, or you can ledgehop an L cancelled Dair-->Fair if they're close enough for it to hit. If Sheik lands on a platform, I like to hit them with my F-air, but hit with the back part of it so it sends them backwards, right back off the stage. I'll have a video of this later, also VERY useful vs. captain falcon.

Approaches/priority: In this matchup, L cancelling and playing smart is necessary. DON'T GET GRABBED! L cancelled F-airs into a shield are good, and if their shield is low you can do a Dtilt to swipe right under their shield. Dtilt is great in Sheik Dittos. If your opponent still has plenty of shield, and doesn't come out of it, you can L cancel a F-air and then just grab them, something Sheik players don't do enough in any matchup. People expect Sheik's to just spam moves, so L cancelling against a shield into a grab is great. Sheik's Dsmash does well too, because a lot of Sheik's are spotdodge/sidestep happy. Ftilt Fair works well also, and Down airs are good if you can catch your opponent attempting to Down smash.

Di'ing Sheik's Gayity: Basically, you always want to attempt to DI away from Sheik. Her tilts away, her chaingrabs off the edge or to a platform. Make sure if you DI her chaingrab away, on the last throw when you fall off the edge, DI UP AND IN so that you survive the F-AIR when she falls off and does it. Hopefully, though, it's not FD and you can get to a platform. The best way to DI sheik's F-air is Up and slightly in, so if you're dying at 80% from it, you're probably DI'ing wrong.
ummm all there is to shiek dittos is spacing

3 moves

downtilt
downsmash
grab

its pretty much rock paper sisscors from there
I'm bored so I'm actually gonna write up my sheik ditto strategy for you

Okay, Sheik dittos are EASY as ****. You need to do a couple of things beyond all else:

1. Stay on the ground. STAY ON THE GROUND. That means stay away from platforms, too, unless you know you'll get on the ground before them. Whenever a Sheik is above me, I just wait for them to land (or try to land) and fair / utilt / dtilt / dash attack them.

2. Crouch cancel everything. Almost all the time you get hit you can CC into a dtilt. Dtilt is probably Sheik's best move, you need to spam the **** out of it. When you fair a shield, go into a dtilt because they can't shield grab it. BUT YOU MUST SPACE OR I CAN SHIELD YOUR DTILT AND GRAB YOU OUT OF IT!!

3. Spacing. Spacing. Is. Everything. If you don't space, you get grabbed. If you get grabbed, you die. You see, if you space filts into the shield, they can't do anything. If they try to attack you or shield grab, you can respond before them and they'll just eat another tilt. If they roll, they get dash attacked. If they jump, see No. 1. If they spot dodge, you're spaced and they get grabbed. If they don't space, on the other hand, you can shield grab, wd in and shield if they like to throw out moves and then shield grab, or you can nair out of shield. Nair out of shield is the safest thing Sheik has when you're trapped in shield or anything so keep it in mind.

4. DI away. Away away away away away. Otherwise you just eat more tilts. If I ftilt and you don't DI all the way away, I just walk up to you and ftilt you again and again until you do. If your % is too high for me to follow up when you DO DI away, then I cut it short and fair you. You can also get out of dash attack to fair at higher percents if you DI away and up.

I'll break down the matchup in a couple of aspects:

Edge guarding: Sheik is easy as **** to edge guard. Just grab the edge and space bairs or throw needles to make sure Sheik HAS to up b on the stage. After that you can grab, bthrow, throw out the bairs again (but you have to know when the recovering Sheik has spaced herself so you don't just throw it out for no reason, a problem mediocre players have). Or if it's at lower percentages, just grab and CG / dthrow combo.

Grabs: A lot of Sheiks don't combo properly, but Sheik combos the **** out of Sheik. The first thing you want to look for out of the grab is making sure they DIed away. If they didn't, utilt or ftilt **** them. You can't ftilt to fair at lower percents so don't do it, either fair or dsmash. But the gold mine is landing the dash attack out of the dthrow. That is the second thing you should be looking for -- at lower percents if they DI away, dash attack, then you can utilt / ftilt or just fair (at edgeguarding %s).

Low percents: Low percents are the hardest to deal with because Sheik's CC is broken. If you do a dash attack or a dsmash it will be CCed and you will be grabbed or dtilted back and it will hurt. Do not allow this to happen! How? YOU MUST SPACE! Spacing is by far the most important at this juncture (though it's always important). Bairs are my favorite. You can also get away with dsmashes but only if it's perfectly spaced. IME you can get away with spaced dsmashes about 20% and up, but it's still not advisable because you can still get punished out of it and, more importantly, because every time you do a dsmash you had a better option.

Dash attacks kind of work at lowish percents, but you have to make sure you finish the move behind them. I'm pretty sure if you do you have time to buffer a spot dodge if they CC and come after you (watch Drephen vids for more). But it's not advisable if you don't know what you are doing.

Approach: Approaching Sheik is hard because of the CC and gay tilts. This is why I prefer CGs because you are only looking for one grab to end the stock. If you agree to no CGs you have to switch it up a LOT because any one approach you do can get countered and punished really quickly. I have a couple of bread and butter approachs, though:

- Empty short hops. I like using these at low percents because if I space it eliminates their CC, and a lot of (bad) Sheiks like to throw out cc dtilts / dsmash whether you space or not. If you don't space, you get ***** by noob ****, but if you do you can just jump right after and fair them again. Anyway, empty short hop is amazing because it's really versatile. You can reverse needle cancel to a bair, you can feint needles and fair, you can wd back and ftilt if they threw a move out, you can wd back and dash attack, you can wd in place or wd back to space yourself, etc. Be creative.

- Stay on the ground and just walk to your opponent. Here you're just reacting to your opponent, but you have to be careful not to throw out moves or they'll bait it and you'll get *****. Try to push them to the side of the stage where they have to shield, jump, roll, or get the stage. If they refuse to approach you just start camping and throw needles. Remember, all you need is that first 30% or so and you can start comboing like normal, you just have to play REALLY REALLY carefully until you get it. Every percent matters.

- Platform / needle camp. You basically sit right under a platform and make them come to you. Camp needles and bair. Nair out of shield. If they commit themselves to you, you can jump on the platform above you and run away and protect yourself with a bair / isai dropped bair.

I'm a really campy Sheik so a lot of my strategy revolves around camping them and making them do the first move. All you need is one opening and you can literally combo Sheik for the whole stock, so be patient and space. Patience, spacing, and CC. That's the whole matchup.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it goes without saying that the first thing you are looking for in any situation is a grab. If you know they always come down with an aerial before they land, then time a boost grab or jump cancel grab, not a dash attack. If you know the timing of your option is going to succeed, you want the grab first, no matter the percentage.
 

Teczer0

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Btw Dave, how are you planning to decide which match up to talk about?

I guess since the sheik boards are amazing we should just pick the one when people go "I don't know how to fight ________". Then we can discuss about the match up.

Or if the thread gets stagnant someone can just choose one.
 

otg

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I know you don't want this, but PLEASE cover Fox next. I know people claim the matchup is even but I have a hard time getting and keeping momentum. I'll get a few stock rampages and gimps here and there, but I feel the matchup could be handled a lot better.
 

Teczer0

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I know you don't want this, but PLEASE cover Fox next. I know people claim the matchup is even but I have a hard time getting and keeping momentum. I'll get a few stock rampages and gimps here and there, but I feel the matchup could be handled a lot better.
Like this =D.

Woot discuss the gayest/2nd gayest match up sheik has.

Fox X_X
 

KirbyKaze

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I'm just going around grabbing information from the various threads that exist and storing the information here.

I'm not discussing any one matchup in particular. What the crowd wants to do, I'll do.

I think everyone has different needs / wants for a matchup thread. I think leaving it open-ended, rather than doing "This week: Jigglypuff" encourages more discussion and prevents it from being stagnant, because people won't feel limited to discussing just what's in the title.

I'll start looting for Fox.
 

Cia

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::subscribes::

nice Sheik ditto info. i got good at the match up only a couple of months ago, so.. it's really important info :D
 

KirbyKaze

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I know you don't want this, but PLEASE cover Fox next. I know people claim the matchup is even but I have a hard time getting and keeping momentum. I'll get a few stock rampages and gimps here and there, but I feel the matchup could be handled a lot better.
That's how it works though.

Hello Vanz.
 

KirbyKaze

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Well.. maybe you guys could explain what makes the matchup 50/50 than, cause at least from my eyes, it's not.
I don't think it's even. I think Fox has advantage. Just not by enough for it to really matter. Better player will still win.

Mostly it's her tech chase and Fox having trouble getting inside Sheik.
 

KirbyKaze

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NTSC Sheik vs Fox

summary of big texts

whether you decide to rambo fox or play the camping game is entirely up to you. fox has arguably a better camp than sheik with his lagless pistol, but sheik can rack more damage with a full set of needles (explained by m2k below) so, for theory smash, it's debatable who has to approach who. in practice, usually one person will lose patience, or it will boil down to who's positioned where, or whether or not one player is better at camping than the other.

the matchup itself boils down to a few things. the first is that sheik's arms and legs have more priority than fox's legs. however, your spacing has to be very precise to eat fox's nair and other assorted moves, which makes it difficult. undershooting moves is very dangerous because of his amazing physics. similarly, overshooting moves can get you punished. spacing is paramount.

whether you approach or not, it seems best to be reactive to him when you can be. you'll have to approach sometimes, but most agree that sheik's moves eating his moves are a very important detail. this is a big part why drephen likes d-smash, i think, because its invincibility and priority will allow it to beat or trade with fox's moves every time (provided he times it correctly), which makes it difficult to approach. mix in her good sidestep, and it's difficult for him to get in on her. m2k, conversely, does f-tilts and her ranged aerials.

again, which moves you pick to defend yourself is largely your discretion and situation-based. however, if you're not taking advantage of your superior hitboxes, you're doing it wrong.

low percents

low percents are painful. you can't do much. vanz recommends spacing aerials and needles and grab. drephen suggests d-smash. whatever you do, it is your goal to get him off low percent and into a mid of like 30. your tilts won't knock a standing fox over until like 25, and your aerials won't do it until like 30, so get that percent in any way you can and then you can suddenly combo him and do stuff.

approaches

in terms of approaches, fox will mostly defend with his jumps, shield (and stuff out of shield), and his amazing dash dance. jumps and shield are all self-explanatory but most people struggle with his dash dance.

simple counters for it are her boost grab and her dash attack. you overshoot dash attack to aim far back, not where they are but where they're going to be. boost grab works roughly the same way, only it's a grab, so it also counters shielding.

tech chasing

when you DO hit him and knock him over, the next part of the match is tech chasing. which you can do in a variety of ways (regrabs, f-tilts that knock over after 25, d-smash for the damage, dash attack, jab resets, etc). while how you actually go about tech chasing is optional and debatable (ending early so you do 30% or going for a longer combo to setup edgeguard), the only real rule is to not get greedy with extra hits and kill him when you get the chance. if that means d-smashing him when he techs to the edge then do it. if it means dash attacking him at 50 into fair ko then do it. make sure he dies.

i recommend reading cactuar's thing on far spacing and close spacing, since it is relevant to sheik, since sheik - like marth - needs to take advantage of her range during tech chase when she's slow. you can miss and still keep a chase going if you're smart, just don't try to regrab when it's clear you were too slow on it. get spaced, counter their defense, and keep them pinned down.

Magus Jab Reset information for Sheik

Cactuar's tech chasing / spacing guide to Marth


fox on sheik - forward tilt = ur best friend

gg
Sheik vs Fox

1) hop back fair/bair when you expect them to come at you (or react to them coming at you)

2) dash dance pivot grab when you expect them to come at you (or react to them coming at you)

3) WD back to F tilt when you expect them to come at you (basically anything that will be defensive with sheik will **** fox)

4) a lot of CC down smash spam

5) needle camp them if they keep lasering, and shoot the needles to hit them all at once when they land (trust me Jack did it to me a lot at OC2, it works quite well)

6) back throw then dash off and double jump rising nair
lol k

lol first off my style is wayyyyyyyyyyyy different from normal sheiks especially against space animals so if you play "normal" sheik style go to plank's guide. Lots of useful stuff in there.

FOX - First thing i do is concentrate on racking up percent. You cant do anything against them if they are at 0%. I don't recommend you use needles to do this because even if you hit them with a single needle, fox is toooo fast and you will probably get hit by a neutral air or something. 12% vs 3% is not in your favor.

So i have 3 things constantly in my mind. 1.) Grab 2.) Dash attack 3.) Predict there jump with a f-air. It all really depends on what style the fox is in.

For example - LuninSpectra,tink,cobol,most foxes on east coast - they are jumpy foxes. About 75% of the time when they are shielding they will jump out of it. So counter this by throwing f-airs above their head

Chillindude, PC, m2k(kinda) - they are ground foxes. They usually dance dash around the stage and shield looking for a grab most of the time. You can counter this with either follwing their dashing and do a dash attack(watch out for their counter attack if they are at 0%) or try to predict when they put their shield up and grabbing them. A good trick to do is to just keeping jabbing them untill they put up their shield then go for the grab(if they catch on and start sidestepping thats when you start up the downsmashing:laugh:)

After you racked up some percent 30%-and onward. Thats when you start downsmashing. Unlike Falco, you can downsmash through ANY of fox's moves. You will trade hits with all of his aerials so start spamming away. Be careful when spamming downsmash too much though, they will wait for it and then run in for the grab (chillin lovvvvveeesss to do this.)

Ledgeguaring - Im a big ***** when its comes to this(im not as risky as KDJ/plank). I usually just wait on the edge and wait for them to over-b/up-b and downsmash if they miss the sweet spot (its really hard for them to sweet spot so dont be afraid to do it everytime except on yoshi story, doesnt work there). I will usually throw out a needle first if they are parallel with me and the stage then go for the downsmash.

This method isnt the flashiest thing ever. But it is safe and wont get yourself killed.

Dash attack - Usually you can always combo from dash attack to dash attack on space animals, Its all situational but you can usually do 2-3 dash attacks in a row depending on which way they DI.
If they DI away - dash attack again.
If they DI neutral f-tilt.
IF they DI away at high % - Go for the f-air
If they DI neutral at high % - Go for the tipper up smash. Kills at like 110% on most stages.

Tech chasing(yeahyuzzzz) - K it really is all about reading your opponent. One thing most people dont do is look at the personality of their opponent. You can tell what Silent Wolf is gonna versus that of chillindudeate2much. If you are playing someone who is always gonna be for the most flashiest/technical stuff versus someone who plans things out before they act.

If you are playing the "I'm technical so i really need to do is shine a bunch and i win" kind of person, out of a grab they will almost always tech roll away. They will usually do this 2-3 more time until they start catching on, so you can try and go for a grab and continue the chase. After that 3rd time they will probably just lay there expecting you to run again, so just do a downsmash. Really its just getting inside your opponents head and predicting what they are gonna do next.

If you are playing the "i'm gonna actually think about what im going to do next" kind of person, then you need to be careful. If you are not sure what they are gonna do next always just react to what they are gonna do and downsmash. Just get the percent in a get the **** outta there.
Some Sheik v Fox stuff

Seeing as how this thread was created by Teczero, i'm sure he's covered this match up many times over. but for those who don't feel like searching for the conversation about it, I'll say a few things about it.

Platform intensive stages (Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Dreamland)

The key to beating fox with sheik at all is to be pretty good at predicting their movements. generally, all foxes do the same stuff (ex. rushing you with nair when forced to the end of the stage.) recognizing these patterns is a great start. Basic platform play can be pretty effective (especially on battlefield) Tech chasing is YOUR BEST FRIEND. get good at it. it makes the match up look really even. When fox is grounded on a platform. How you should respond is very dependent on his percentage.

20% - 40% - Uair. good foxes will usually CC the aerial. this will re-ground them. just repeat the process. if catching the Uair becomes too difficult. Nair or fair is ok just for the sake of building damage.

40% - 60% - Uair > Fair. You want him off of the stage early. Use needles to snipe fox as he tries to recover. You obviously don't want him to come back. eliminate his options quickly.

60+ - Fair through the platform. Simplicity is best because with fox, things can change for the worst in an instant. limit recovery options > edge guard.

Things not to do: A good fox will always be faster then Sheik. Do not challenge is speed. simply be prepared for. When fox is working the platforms. Bair is a great spacing tool. and will usually knock him right out of all his crap. even if they sheild it, do another one. as long as it's spaced.

Do not approach with short-hop Fair at low percentages. he will just CC > combo you. in fact, don't do alot of things at low percentages LOL. as dumb as that sounds, most sheik stuff gets CC'd. spaced bairs are ok if you really like your aerials. Grabs are incredible right now. if you land one Dthrow tech chase. if you are lucky enough to get a fox who tech-rolls near the ledge, tech chase Dsmash, and proceed to edge guard. Charged needles are essential for speeding up the early damage process.

* After Dthrow, sometimes i just stand there and charge needles. if they decide to getup attack, just shieldgrag. if they roll dodge behind you, you can actually stop charging and still have time to run backwards and grab. if they tech-roll forward, you can either throw the needles, or just keep charging til you fill up for later use. <3 Dthrow
----------------------------------

i'll cover FD and FoD later.. maybe <_<

teco - if you know where it is, put a link to conversations about match ups on the first page so that we don't have to keep re-visiting the same match ups. and we're going to **** at today's tournament :D
Fox: 40%: One of Sheik's not so good matchups, but it's still completely possible.

Grabs: Grabs against fox are crucial. Again, the good ol' tech chase if very very reliable against fastfallers, Dthrow->wait for tech->react->grab. If you notice someone is teching in place all the time or not teching, the next time you grab them just Dthrow-->Dsmash if it will hit them off the ledge. Most people have very predictable tech patters, take note of which way spacies tech and punish the techs. If you grab a space animal near the edge, don't hesitate to thow them off and edgeguard.

Edgeguarding: To edgeguard fox and falco is very fun, and is one of the most effective in the game. The most very simple edgeguard that will work against almost any new/only decent fox, is if you just Back throw them near the edge, turn around and needle (they'll jmp into it out of reflex) then jump out and F-air them in the face during their firefox. This works for falco too. If the fox likes to illusion at the spot so it sweetspots, you have a few options. You can either walk up to the ledge and time the Dsmash (Start the Dsmash when you hear the TING from the illusion), or you can fall off the ledge and jump with a neutral air, then up+b to the ledge and edgeguard with back airs. I prefer just throwing the fox off the edge and edgeguarding with back airs.

Approach/priority, the tricky thing: Basically what I do in this matchup is wavedash around a lot and wait for grab opportunities. Also do needles off of a platform-->aerial. Needles-->grab are also very useful in this matchup, any way to get a grab is good. If the fox comes from too high, you can utilt his approach. if he comes too low, you can dsmash it. If the fox isnt experienced enough to come from the right angle you should be able to stop them approaching pretty easily. Needles are good if the Fox is dash camping, because his dash dance is so good. Also, take note of what a fox does when you run at them. Do they sidestep? If so, downsmash next time. Do they always jump out of their shield and try to do an aerial? If so, just jump above their shield and smack them with a F-air. L cancel aerials into tilts is good, but be careful of getting predictable. Just play solid and don't leave yourself too open, grabs will get you massacred.

DI'ing vs. fox: I'm sure a big problem most people have against fox is the Uthrow-->uair combo. Basically with experience and reaction time you will learn to DI the initial throw, which is 1/2 the battle. If the fox isn't that good at Uthrow-->Uair, you can usually DI the throw then hit them with a F-air when they come out. Against a good fox, you have to Di away from the throw, then SMASH DI back in the other direction after the first hit of the uair hits. This will stop the 2nd (and stronger) part of the uair from hitting. When you see yourself get shined, vs a good fox, just immediately start DI;ing away because you know the wd-->uthrow is coming, or if not then the Usmash is, which u still want to DI so you don't get uair'd afterwards.
more neighborhoodp stuff

something that is really important is how to edge guard

when you grab fox, one of the most successful edge guards i have at any percent is bthrow to jump out and bair. this covers so many options and if he jumps back and waits, you don't HAVE to bair. if he's parallel to the ledge you can grab before the illusion. if he jumps back and firefoxes you bair and he dies. if he goes out far enough for you to get away but is illusioning back on the stage, you can land on the stage and ftilt or dsmash his recovery. if he goes low you can just grab the edge for invincibility and come up with a nair or go down with a bair.

that and what m2k said, bthrowing out and rising nair are the two default edge guards.

then when they start immediately jumping back to try to dodge you can do the m2k and immediately double jump and fair them before the dodge.

anyway, i'm one of those who thinks fox v sheik is pretty even, and one of the most important things is nair, because it along with bair and ftilt is the safest move you have, even as an approach.

you really gotta capitalize on how relatively difficult it is for fox to get in. gotta master the timing of all those auto cancel aerials to keep yourself fluid and to build a wall around yourself. incidentally, i believe sheik has an easier time comboing fox to death off of one hit than fox does to her.
 

soap

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its pretty amazing to see all the different sources of info right next to each other.

if i fair, jab, jab cancel grab. can i get shieldgrabbed after the jab and before the grab?
 

KirbyKaze

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i'm pretty sure anything that involves jab --> anything can be shield-grabbed

but it's a small window so they might mess up so it's worth trying sometimes probably
 

soap

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not that i jab a lot anyways, just curious.

i do alot of autocancel fair>dtilt, and fair>grab mixups.

fair>grab on shield is pretty broken against people with less grab range than u. Like little doctor mario

i suck at general matchup info, cuz i do whatever. Im more of a "real specific situation tricks kinda guy" that i use on everyone.
 

KirbyKaze

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nurgle

i just space moves and grab and

1) if they're a fast faller i tech chase

2) if they're cgable i cg

3) if they're floaty i do tilts / uairs and shield and wait for nair to punish it or just continue to combo if they don't nair

4) if they're semi-floaty or medium weight i combo

exceptions are ics and puff where grab sucks and you just add needles and "gimp nana" to ics
 

NeighborhoodP

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something that is really important is how to edge guard

when you grab fox, one of the most successful edge guards i have at any percent is bthrow to jump out and bair. this covers so many options and if he jumps back and waits, you don't HAVE to bair. if he's parallel to the ledge you can grab before the illusion. if he jumps back and firefoxes you bair and he dies. if he goes out far enough for you to get away but is illusioning back on the stage, you can land on the stage and ftilt or dsmash his recovery. if he goes low you can just grab the edge for invincibility and come up with a nair or go down with a bair.

that and what m2k said, bthrowing out and rising nair are the two default edge guards.

then when they start immediately jumping back to try to dodge you can do the m2k and immediately double jump and fair them before the dodge.

anyway, i'm one of those who thinks fox v sheik is pretty even, and one of the most important things is nair, because it along with bair and ftilt is the safest move you have, even as an approach.

you really gotta capitalize on how relatively difficult it is for fox to get in. gotta master the timing of all those auto cancel aerials to keep yourself fluid and to build a wall around yourself. incidentally, i believe sheik has an easier time comboing fox to death off of one hit than fox does to her.
 

AlcyoNite

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thank you for this thread.

m2k plays this matchup well, so this is nice to compliment those vids with a written explanation as to how exactly sheik can shut fox down.
 

KirbyKaze

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falco's up+b charge has no hitbox whereas fox's has a hitbox. during fox's charge, the hitbox is mostly around his body, meaning you can drop directly on him with pretty much anything and have it win. for falco, this positioning crap is entirely unnecessary because there's nothing he can do if he up+bs and you reach him in time.

for the movement part of the firefox, you can beat it with both legs of back air, but timing varies depending on what you're trying to do and depends on relative positioning. they have to get hit by the tip of sheik's bair hitting with the strong part is a lot easier than hitting with the weak part.

i'm not sure how you hit the weak part of sheik's bair on firefoxes but i think you have to hit the bottom of the leg, at the back of it. so where her heel would be, basically. but i'm not entirely sure.
 

soap

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ive beaten firefox clean with every part of the bair. Fresh bair, not the deteriorated one.

tip, bottom leg, crotch. It's all good
 

KirbyKaze

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Fox has trouble getting into Sheik. F-tilt, Bair, Fair, CC D-smash and other assorted moves make it difficult for him to make a move on her without being punished.

Unfortunately, the flipside is that Fox actually has the speed and movement control that allows him to punish any whiffs Sheik makes with some decent conditioning. And with intelligent use of CC and DI, he turns the low percent game into living hell for Sheik by ****** the majority of her game until like 30 or so.

I'm not sure how much I agree with P that Sheik's Nair is that safe against Fox. I agree it's good, but in terms of safety I feel it's one of her lesser options; I feel it commits you in the air for too long (or you suffer lag) and without the range of her Bair. Having said that, I'm sure he has something in mind with it, so I'll just wait for him to explain.
 

soap

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Fox has trouble getting into Sheik. F-tilt, Bair, Fair, CC D-smash and other assorted moves make it difficult for him to make a move on her without being punished.

Unfortunately, the flipside is that Fox actually has the speed and movement control that allows him to punish any whiffs Sheik makes with some decent conditioning. And with intelligent use of CC and DI, he turns the low percent game into living hell for Sheik by ****** the majority of her game until like 30 or so.

I'm not sure how much I agree with P that Sheik's Nair is that safe against Fox. I agree it's good, but in terms of safety I feel it's one of her lesser options; I feel it commits you in the air for too long (or you suffer lag) and without the range of her Bair. Having said that, I'm sure he has something in mind with it, so I'll just wait for him to explain.
sheik nair is good against fox nair spam. just get it out over their nair and it wins.

i try nairing against drephen's fox. He just upsmashes me. nair does not trade with usmash :(

all aerials get ***** by usmash, except bair if u space it, u can hit fox before his usmash comes out alot of the time. Against fox, i like defensive bair + offensive boost grab
 
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