The Road to Smash 4: A Plan for the Future

[Cronos_Rainbow]

My point was that I don't want an open field, because it will always be rifle vs rifle. Around a corner, the range of a gun is lost, and a person with a knife stands more of a chance. If this corner is within a tight corridor, the knife is actually a better weapon. I want a plethora of factors that potentially determine victory. It's why I've always been against the battlefield/FD variant stage rules, but that's an entirely different matter for another day.

On to movement. What is needed are movement options that provide the speed and/or spacing necessary to beat out moves that are either higher speed or higher reach than those you have. This works best imo when they are within a time range to work if you read your opponent, but not if it's reactionary. If the movement is not fast and/or precise enough to feasibly do that, then it becomes a non-factor.

 

[Attila_]

There are a lot of points that I would like to address here, apologies if some of this post seems disjointed.

1. Negativity has most definitely been highlighted by many members of the brawl community, and is a cause for concern with Smash 4 approaching. In fact, I have been contacted by players both in domestically and internationally regarding the validity of this post. Denying the need for this discussion is really short sighted.

2. When I said I was generalizing, I really meant it. There are certain members of the melee scene that are have always been very supportive to the wider smash community, and I am still grateful to them.

3. I don't see splitting as a good option, but rather, a last resort. If attitudes don't improve, it will become a necessary step.

4. I have issue with people expressing distasteful opinions, there are just different ways of expressing your opinions. Consider 'I dislike the lack of movement options, and the slow paced aerial camp game' vs 'What a slow piece of **** game, who would ever want to play that?' It's pretty simple, really. And 'opinions' like this are already rampant on both smash boards and popular social media.

5. This is really a side point, but people keep bringing it up anyway; which specific mechanics make a game good are largely up to the individual. To take the extreme example, that melee hack that was released allowing all moves to be cancelled at any time offered ultimate freedom, but did anyone actually play it? Restrictions are necessary at some point. And where one draws the line is not exactly where someone else might draw it. To come back to Praxis' swimming pool example, one games deep end might start at a different point to another game, but provided they both have a deep end, there is potential for satisfaction and deep game play.

6. Props to players who have admitted their faults and resolved to fix them. It really is a step in the right direction.

7. From a personal point of view, I think friction between the communities exploded after the MLG Anaheim announcement. While I had been exposed to the negativity earlier, I suppose I didn't feel strongly enough to say anything up until that point. When melee rallied for Evo, the entirety of the smash community threw their full support behind it, and definitely helped push melee across the line. Brawl and N64 players who don't even play melee, and didn't even attend Evo, ran fundraisers and posted for awareness constantly, even donating their own money. The hashtag #onesmashunit was used, and we felt a sense of togetherness. But then when brawl tried to rally for MLG again this year, the melee community instead turned it's back, saying 'Just because you helped us, we don't owe you anything'. It was a pretty big slap in the face. For me at least, this was when I realised that the melee community really did sit outside of the wider smash community. This was the pinnacle of that elitism. And so after seeing Smash 4 being mistreated the same way Brawl was, I decided that action needed to be taken. I don't want to see this repeated in the future.

Crashboards double post, delete please.

 

[Divinokage]

7. From a personal point of view, I think friction between the communities exploded after the MLG Anaheim announcement. While I had been exposed to the negativity earlier, I suppose I didn't feel strongly enough to say anything up until that point. When melee rallied for Evo, the entirety of the smash community threw their full support behind it, and definitely helped push melee across the line. Brawl and N64 players who don't even play melee, and didn't even attend Evo, ran fundraisers and posted for awareness constantly, even donating their own money. The hashtag #onesmashunit was used, and we felt a sense of togetherness. But then when brawl tried to rally for MLG again this year, the melee community instead turned it's back, saying 'Just because you helped us, we don't owe you anything'. It was a pretty big slap in the face. For me at least, this was when I realised that the melee community really did sit outside of the wider smash community. This was the pinnacle of that elitism. And so after seeing Smash 4 being mistreated the same way Brawl was, I decided that action needed to be taken. I don't want to see this repeated in the future.

Crashboards double post, delete please.

That never happened... I have no idea where you got that kind of evidence. It was Nintendo's call to allow Brawl at MLG however the movement to get Brawl to MLG was very weak. That's largely because of the community itself, their passion of the game overall isn't very strong. There were only several key members who tried to rally people up but it ended up with a lot of bickering and BS. It's not Melee's fault at all, it's your own members that can't keep it together which in turn makes a lot of people outside the community not really willing to help that much. I'd say it's like the return in investment wasn't present enough. The kind of hate you described initially is everywhere, you cannot single out a community like that. If you keep focusing on the hateful stuff you'll never get anywhere, you think the FGC hate stopped us getting to EVO? Nope.. Just do your own thing then if you really need help, you'll get it because it's a worthy cause.

 

[Gords]

I will add my opinion on smash 4 and this thread when i get home and have time to think of the right way of saying it.

but in the meantime...
Attila. Can you give me any examples of positive things/comments you have heard/seen about smash 4

 

[KoNfucius]

I was just hoping ssb4 would be its own game instead of brawl 2. But oh well. I'm still gonna play it lol.

 

[Oblivion]

I have met people brand new to competitive smash that played Melee and they hated Brawl without ever playing it or even knowing that competitive Brawl exists. Do you think that they came up with that idea by themselves? No, they were told to hate Brawl. Tell me more how Melee elitism doesn't hurt Brawl.

 

[Dekar289]

well in australia (at least victoria) this doesn't happen to the extent that attila is making out
i've even been told by numerous interstaters that melbourne is by far the friendliest scene
this is why, for me, all this comes as quite a surprise

if anything this thread damages the melee scene's reputation more than the melee 'elitism' damages the brawl scene

 

[Attila_]

Don't cry foul dekar, you're no victim here.

If that is your genuine opinion, then you really need to open your eyes. Hell, just read responses from brawl players in this thread. Even most melee players are willing to acknowledge this. Look outside yourself for one second.

 

[Gords]

First of all the reason why I haven't responded earlier to this thread was that I wanted to find the right way of saying things. Or even just to gather my thoughts as I strong feelings with what you have said Attila . However in the meantime others have posted replies that have the same or similar opinions as me as well as have the diplomacy skills to express them well and not sound so defensive. I would agree with most of what S.D (and those that he quotes from reddit) and Redact have stated.

As a general rule, however, posts can be split into two main categories: The brawl players and the melee players. Brawl players essentially received an upgraded version of their game, and were happy for it. While the melee players felt cheated by Nintendo, expressing distaste for the floaty, slow paced nature of the game. It appeared that melee players expected melee V2.0, despite the fact that this clearly was never going to happen. Sighting a lack of dash dancing and wavedashing, they took to social media, and began bashing the game that they have never even played.

I have heard and seen a lot this week with regards to Smash 4, but nothing as harsh as what your describing but more like a similar perspective to what S.D described it as.

Firstly what you see as 'bashing' a game we haven't played, from my perspective it's largely a robust discussion. If people have negative things to say about the gameplay it isn't necessarily because they wanted or expected melee 2.0, it's because they have legitimate concerns about the direction of the series from a competitive standpoint. I think this is healthier than blindly creating false hype and jumping on the bandwagon without hesitation. Sure some people are bashing it for the sake of it, but my personal arguments have been based on more than "it's not melee".

I cant say it better than this


My initial reaction to Smash 4 this week was disappointment. Disappointment because I saw a game that didn't seem to be able to take Smash and its community in the direction we want it to go in. however I didn't immediately know what about the game I was seeing or reading I was exactly concerned about, as in why it would hinder Smash becoming something big and mainstream. (heck I struggle to understand concepts like the neutral game or stage control)
The information provided in this post and its links pretty much explains it though

Praxis has summarised my viewpoint quite well in THIS POST

Essentially it eschews arguments about melee specific ATs and focuses on what makes a game competitive and the early indications that Smash 4 deliberately flies in the face of them.

EDIT: THIS POST from the same thread reflects my concerns about depth. Very interesting.

I didn't want or expect melee 2.0, I already have that with PM.
What I wanted from Smash 4 was a new fresh game,
one that is fun to play and fun to watch.
one that rewards me for hitting my opponent (not punishes me)
and above all a game that encourages creativity.

I played Melee for 7yrs before I knew about wavedashing or what DI was or even the existence of a competitive scene. It was for the reasons above that I enjoyed playing this fighting game as a person who openly stated he doesn't really like playing fighters.

The reason why I stopped playing brawl is that I couldn't be very creative with it because my opponents just keep running away, can escape easily or I get punished for hitting them. Smash 4 seems to go even further in this direction.

I have more to say which i will type up in a another post

 

[Gords]

Sorry for the double post,but
Some more of my opinions with things mentioned here:

Hell Australian melee virtually died a few years ago.

why do you think this was?

In general, I feel there are two main reasons why brawl is dying:

1. A broken metagame in a serious need of a patch
2. The constant negativity of the melee community

I also feel that there are 2 main reasons why brawl is dying.

1. A broken metagame in a serious need of a patch
2. Brawl is suffering in the same way Melee did after Brawl's release

I agree completely with point one, however point two. Upon Brawls release many players moved on from melee and played brawl since it was the next big thing, where all the hype was. (this is the reason why CT ZeRo picked up brawl). This in turn led to a decline in melee. However now Melee is the big thing once again so players are moving back and also players that where never involved in melee before are coming over to melee because that is where the hype is. (M2K didnt even enter brawl at SKTAR3)

I think Melee will survive through 2015 along side Smash 4 because there is some big money in it now and Smash 4 and Melee look like vastly different games. However I feel that brawl will continue to suffer this same fate since Brawl and Smash 4 look very similar so those that don't like melee but enjoy brawl are also likely to move on from brawl to the next big thing, Smash 4.

I think the Brawl community might need to host a tournament a year after Smash 4 release.
RoB. Revival of Brawl?

Should the negativity continue to fester, I feel it best that the community splits into two. This is something that I feel the brawl community should have done a number of years ago; it would be a lot healthier for it. The melee community has become toxic, unable to tolerate anything outside itself. It stands outside the greater smash community, only claiming unity when assistance is needed.

I disagree with everything stated here. I feel like my story ****s in the face of everything you mention. Today I am a Melee player and I don't really like playing Brawl but I have respect for the game. The reason why I found this community is because one of the most terribly implemented features of brawl, its wifi. Without this I would never have known about a community to get involved with. I came into this community a Brawl player and was on the receiving end of some of the banter you describe. However I never felt the melee players were toxic, or couldn't tolerate me and when I asked for assistance with brawl they gave it. Then I asked to learn their game and they were welcoming. I would not have had this opportunity had the scenes been split.

You say the Brawl community should of split from Melee years ago. I can tell you now that if this was the case I would not be here today to right this post. I wouldn't have even be using smashboards, wouldn't have the friends I do today, and never would have had the best experience of my life going to Japan last year. So I am very grateful that the brawl community didnt act so rashly like you believe it should have. The reason why I wouldn't be here is that I would have gotten tired of Brawl very quickly and not have had those opportunities to find out about melee in ways that appeals to me. I just would have left.

You say it would have been healthier. Today I don't like entering into Brawl, but I still go down to Canberra to help TinMan out (note I also did this before he added melee) as often as I can. I supply equipment as often as I can and still have entered into brawl events for the last 3 years even when I haven't enjoyed doing so to support a game I don't like playing for reasons mentioned above. If the community was split I wouldn't have been here to help out. I cant have been the only one with this story. You mentioned that you are grateful for people like S.D, Shaya and I that support the wider smash community. But if the community is split at least one side will lose some of these people, and in my case both sides would have lost me, because there won't be a wider smash community.

Attila, much of your argument is about the negativity of the melee community but so far I don't see much positive coming from you. I was feeling down after seeing the end of the invitational and came here for support. But what I found instead was your thread to what my first impressions were that Brawl members were bashing on the melee community for what I had seen was critical discussion and genuine concern for the wider smash community. Now that I have had time to think and collect my thoughts I can see you are just concerned about the same thing I am and that maybe....your own negative impressions of the melee community have clouded your judgement.

For example:

7. From a personal point of view, I think friction between the communities exploded after the MLG Anaheim announcement. While I had been exposed to the negativity earlier, I suppose I didn't feel strongly enough to say anything up until that point. When melee rallied for Evo, the entirety of the smash community threw their full support behind it, and definitely helped push melee across the line. Brawl and N64 players who don't even play melee, and didn't even attend Evo, ran fundraisers and posted for awareness constantly, even donating their own money. The hashtag #onesmashunit was used, and we felt a sense of togetherness. But then when brawl tried to rally for MLG again this year, the melee community instead turned it's back, saying 'Just because you helped us, we don't owe you anything'. It was a pretty big slap in the face. For me at least, this was when I realised that the melee community really did sit outside of the wider smash community. This was the pinnacle of that elitism. And so after seeing Smash 4 being mistreated the same way Brawl was, I decided that action needed to be taken. I don't want to see this repeated in the future..

Just to let you know I found out about the Brawl MLG rally from Prog on a melee youtube video of a melee stream that happened over a month before I saw it. I found out about the Melee EVO rally from a post by Australian Melee player here immediately.

That never happened... I have no idea where you got that kind of evidence. It was Nintendo's call to allow Brawl at MLG however the movement to get Brawl to MLG was very weak. That's largely because of the community itself, their passion of the game overall isn't very strong. There were only several key members who tried to rally people up but it ended up with a lot of bickering and BS. It's not Melee's fault at all, it's your own members that can't keep it together which in turn makes a lot of people outside the community not really willing to help that much.

I couldnt agree more with what Divinokage is saying here, and I bring some evidence.

In late October 2012, months before Melee accepted Brawls help with the EVO donation drive,
EVO held a poll on what games people wanted at EVO.
Melee was number 1 with 6868 votes
Brawl was number 8 with only 2088 votes.
And this was when Brawl was still huge evident by the fact that the largest Brawl Tourney was Apex 2013, only 3 months after this poll, and only weeks before the EVO donation drive.

Attila, I am still feeling down and concerned and I would genuinely like you to link me to something about Smash 4 that you feel is positive in terms of Smash's longevity.

 

[Black Mantis]

Combos have been confirmed though.

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...bros-wii-u-perspective-competitive-player-e3/

 

[Hughie]

Combos have been confirmed though.

Not really, though, even with the hitstun it a lot of the 'combos' we've already seen could of been airdodged out.

Also remember that this is still a game in development, to which I'm sure that Nintendo reps are going through here, reddit, and many other sources of player's opinions. The game can and most likely will change. Complaining about the game acting like it's in it's final state isn't necessary is stupid and and everyone should base their final opinion when the game releases. I understand that some game mechanics are frustrating, but remember it's still a game in development.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

4. I have issue with people expressing distasteful opinions, there are just different ways of expressing your opinions. Consider 'I dislike the lack of movement options, and the slow paced aerial camp game' vs 'What a slow piece of **** game, who would ever want to play that?' It's pretty simple, really. And 'opinions' like this are already rampant on both smash boards and popular social media.

If 'What a slow piece of **** game, who would ever want to play that?' is what you consider vitriolic enough to warrant a lengthy, formal discussion on people's attitudes, and potentially splitting the scene, then maybe the internet isn't the place for you, friend

Not saying we shouldn't strive to be more positive, but in the grand scheme of things that really isn't that bad at all

As I said in the FB thread, everyone chanting for Melee when Nairo won Apex is the kind of thing you can bring up as evidence of the Melee community not respecting Brawl enough, but I really can't see why the pretty tame Smash 4 criticism has gptten under your skin

As other people have already stated, everything is going to turn out fine,
When you said "Denying the need for this discussion is really short sighted."
Honestly, I must disagree. I don't disagree that this discussion should have happened, everyone has raised really good points and made their voices heard, but I don't see where you want the discussion to go from here

 

[Splice]

Gords a lot of what you say is putting words into Attila's mouth or misinterpreting his intention. And your evidence to the contrary proves and means nothing, I really don't....

look anyway
"What I wanted from Smash 4 was a new fresh game,
one that is fun to play and fun to watch.
one that rewards me for hitting my opponent (not punishes me)
and above all a game that encourages creativity."

Brawl encourages creativity, it's pretty much in the nature of smash. Even when you take away melee's infinite movement you rely on creativity in a lot of situations.
If the game has less SDI this is beneficial for getting reward out of hitting the opponent, and with the hitstun and knockback hits already looking way more rewarding than in Brawl.
It's really weird seeing all the things I know were jank in Brawl being crazy improved, and then people saying it looks like Brawl 2.0 when they seem to have no idea what they're looking for.

Characters do linger longer in the air and it looks like the aerial spacing involved in the neutral game could be similar to Brawl but this was never a problem with the game (in my experience, and I have a lot of problems with the game). The viability of approaching and aspects of certain characters define Brawl much more, and these things are up in the air at the moment. With new characters looking like they have completely foreign playstyles to previous installments of the series, you're already looking at a brand new type of metagame (assuming they're top tier/viable characters lol)

@ Hughie ; Brawl-style air dodge is pretty **** if the opponent knows you have to use it to avoid a combo. Combo's being dependant on air dodge reads as well as DI would make the game pretty unique though, but with that much hitstun and air dodges lookin' like they do I don't think they'll help much. Regardless of comboing, the fact that there's hitstun means that hitting the other dude doesn't put you in as bad of a position afterwards. And that was one thing that was the problem with Brawl; it doesn't feel like you get much bang for your buck when you get a hit (until you learn to glorify getting 18% on some dude) and sometimes the opponent does more damage to you because you hit him.

 

[Dekar289]

If that is your genuine opinion, then you really need to open your eyes. Hell, just read responses from brawl players in this thread. Even most melee players are willing to acknowledge this. Look outside yourself for one second.

i think most melee players agree that 1) lots of people love melee and dislike brawl and 2) it's a shame that some brawl players have felt pushed away by the melee scene's attitude

but instead of generalizing, could you please give examples of behavior you have witnessed that has been deemed 'toxic' and detrimental to the brawl scene, that you are worried may continue to occur for smash 4

because i think we all agree that
- all players are entitled to their own opinions of all games
- most if not all players go to tournaments to have fun and never seek to actively ruin the enjoyment of others

so what exactly needs to change? please give examples!

 

[woodsta]

I personally would never go up and start evangelizing about melee unprovoked/uninvited.

Literally the only time I've ever seen this happen in my (limited) experience of the smash scene, is this dude who posts on the QLD smash facebook page evangelizing project M all the time.

 

[Dino63]

I thought the only problems between brawl and melee in QLD in recent times is Bevis and Butthead and that hasn't happened in a few months

 

[Jamwa]

I think the point of this thread was that some of the negative attitudes can be unwelcoming for new players joining the scene. There's some post in the intro thread of someone saying "if you think brawl is **** then i like you". It's not nice to see in an introduction thread first of all, and secondly Atilla was the only one who kind of addressed that statement. What will people think this community is like if they go to the intro thread and see that? Does it encourage Brawl players to join?

Anyway, can we just say that we shouldn't encourage this kind of exclusive behavior at the least?Yes it's mainly social media where the bashing is present and yes nothing has been super serious, but it's still ok to acknowledge that if the negativity was occurring, you would not approve.

aaaaaanyway no full circle pls

 

[Attila_]

It's pretty easy to find basic examples if you search at all. Here are a few I find almost instantly:

this has nothing to do with 'smash in the eyes of the FGC', lol
even they understand that brawl is inferior and will be dead when the new smash comes out

also, brawl is boring
we usually only do melee amateur brackets in vic anyway

disclaimer: the real 'joke' is that we don't play these games at monthlies instead of brawl
tak can you do us a favour and get the amazing race for wii
apparently it's 4 player
yiss

by all means play more aggressive in an attempt to trick yourself into thinking brawl is fun
one last time

It's nothing that directly offends me in isolation, but when comments like this stack, that really grow wearisome. Not to mention if gives potential new players false impressions before they can even play the game.

These were just from smashboards; facebook has been a lot more brutal.

Actually, Jamwa's point is a really recent one; I was the only one who made reference to the post by the new member. A communal approach to stopping bad behavior would be much more effective.

@ Grim Tuesday : The point about Nairo is a very strong one, but in reality, was the result of poor culture. And this is where it starts.

@ Gords : I am glad that you have had such a positive experience with the scene. Most points directed at me ignore or misconstrue my original post, and I don't feel the need to reply to them.

And the last question... I still don't understand it.

Actually, one other quote that I came across:

we're a community, we work together to solve ****.
saying/doing nothing helps nobody

Yep.

 

[blaze3927]

I honestly believe that anyone who finds competitive Brawl matches enjoyable to play or watch has a brain impediment.

watching the smash 4 invitational final made me sad as smash 4 is probably going the same way.

 

[Attila_]

I honestly believe that anyone who finds competitive Brawl matches enjoyable to play or watch has a brain impediment.

watching the smash 4 invitational final made me sad as smash 4 is probably going the same way.

And this is exactly the type of behavior that I've been talking about.

More than anything, it's completely unwarranted and unnecessary. But instead of showing disapproval, people 'like' it. Well done guys.

 

[J-Birds]

Hey man, everybody is literally regurgitating the same point all throughout this discussion to the point where this thread is going nowhere. So if i see a post that i think is funny I'm gonna go ahead and like it. Its clearly the exact thing you're trying to point out so the fact that someone went there, is hilarious to me.

Honestly it just seems like you're looking for opportunities to whinge at this point.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Have some tact though, yeah? No need to fan the flames when there's legitimate issues being discussed. In the end we should all be friends here - that's what I like about our scene, the Japanese scene etc. over the US one. We can compete, have different opinions, and prefer different games, but if we start making it personal it's only going to spiral out of control.

If you don't like Brawl, you're entitled to that opinion. I'm sure a lot of us are happy to hear and discuss reasoning in a mature way too. Saying people have a brain impediment helps nothing, and sooner or later that kind of crap just leads to black eyes or damaged property. What's the use in that?

 

[Black Mantis]

but instead of generalizing, could you please give examples of behavior you have witnessed that has been deemed 'toxic' and detrimental to the brawl scene, that you are worried may continue to occur for smash 4

http://smashboards.com/threads/if-t...wanted-to-save-melee-it-better-be-now.267358/
http://smashboards.com/threads/synikals-brawl-impressions-when-hearts-cry-edition.141716/

I'm not saying every melee player is evil or mean to brawl players by default. I'm talking about the kind that would boo a teenage kid who won his first international. The kind that won't acknowledge the mental aspects of the game. The kind that hold every other fighting game in the world to melee standards while ignoring the flaws of melee itself. The kind that make and play terrible mods, and get invited by Nintendo themselves to play a demo, but still complain about a demo (a game that is far from complete). Those kinds are bad. I know a whole bunch if cool melee players, but many of them fall into those categories I mentioned.

Two more:The kind who think that because brawl players choose to play brawl they must be bad at melee and melee players who are mean to brawl players simply because they play brawl.

Check MIOM for more negative and unnecessary garbage.

 

[Mytus]

This seems relevant right now.

 

[Dekar289]

blah blah

this is the australian scene
australian players are not 'mean to brawl players simply because they play brawl'
australian players do not 'think that because brawl players choose to play brawl they must be bad at melee'

it appears the actual issue in australia being raised by attila here is people badmouthing brawl online...
many people laugh at brawl's expense but it appears some of the brawl community feel this behavior is 'toxic' and perhaps even targeted towards them personally (i think the 'hate' has always been towards the game, never the player)

so is the solution to try and stop people posting negative comments about a game on the internet? because that seems ridiculous.

even if, when the new smash comes out, people were to complain about it, this would NOT stop a huge influx of numbers, and people excitedly discussing details of the new smash online also.
if enough people play and enjoy the game (which is bound to happen for at least the first year), then will negative comments on the internet really matter?

 

[Dino63]

And imo there's a lot of reasons for it being for the better (a transition from monstrosities known to the public as CRTs to light and cozy silky beautiful cover LCDs [when you move them])

You're still angry about Inadvertently head butting Berta at summer smash of 09 aren't you?
CRTs are the best, from Berta, to Ron to Dora, the blazing inferno, I enjoyed getting these TVs, kerbsiding for hours just for couple, naming them and helping the scene by giving them out to new guys, to help invite them into the scene and to further develop the QLD scene.

Flat screens are expensive and weak (compared to CRTs)
You don't break CRTs, CRTs break you!

And if your complaint is 'there too heavy' then don't be a soft ****

 

[Gords]

@ Gords : I am glad that you have had such a positive experience with the scene. Most points directed at me ignore or misconstrue my original post, and I don't feel the need to reply to them.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the message I get from your original post is that you believe that the negativity exerted by the melee community throughout brawls history has played a significant role in brawls decline. I also see that you are concerned about Smash 4's longevity if this situation would repeat itself, to which you have stated to have seen strong signs of this already, and that a viable option to the problem would be to split the communities into their separate camps.

Is this interpretation of your post close to what you're trying to say? (serious question), if so my short response would then be:
I agree that the Melee camp has been harsh on the Brawl community and may have hindered the growth of brawl somewhat during the earlier years of brawl, however I don't think it is the reason for Brawls current decline. I haven't seen very much of such hate or bashing on smash 4 that rivals the brawl treatment recently posted by @ Black Mantis but rather critical discussion like what @S.D posted. I don't believe that Smash 4 will receive such treatment as well as the community has matured a lot since brawl and that those that have leadership roles within melee will deal with this negativity on a case bases. I also believe that splitting the wider smash community up wont help the Australian scene very much especially if the Split is only in Australia (as in for it to be a solution to the problem your trying to address with this action it will need to be a global one as negativity would be visible on all social media everywhere). Also that splitting the scenes up would also hinder the growth of all the games to some degree and possibly more then dealing those spreading the negativity.

And the last question... I still don't understand it.

I assume you are referring to

Attila, I am still feeling down and concerned and I would genuinely like you to link me to something about Smash 4 that you feel is positive in terms of Smash's longevity.

I am concerned for Smash's longevity as well but more for the reasons described by @S.D and those he quoted on reddit, and also your point 1. I am hoping that Smash 4 doesnt have a broken metagame that needs patching.
What I was looking for from you was an idea that you might have had, seen or heard about Smash 4 that may address some of the above concerns in a positive manner.
One example I have had since my last post is that even if the metagame is damaged in a similar way to brawl's that we can use character customization and equipment (as described here) to help balance the game somewhat.

I feel for Smash 4, all ruleset committees must be more diligent for the sake of everyone.

I couldn't agree more, and I hope that they consider all options and features Smash 4 has to offer to make it the most enjoyable it can be to both play and watch competitively?

 

[Redact]

this is the australian scene
australian players are not 'mean to brawl players simply because they play brawl'
australian players do not 'think that because brawl players choose to play brawl they must be bad at melee'

it appears the actual issue in australia being raised by attila here is people badmouthing brawl online...
many people laugh at brawl's expense but it appears some of the brawl community feel this behavior is 'toxic' and perhaps even targeted towards them personally (i think the 'hate' has always been towards the game, never the player)

so is the solution to try and stop people posting negative comments about a game on the internet? because that seems ridiculous.

even if, when the new smash comes out, people were to complain about it, this would NOT stop a huge influx of numbers, and people excitedly discussing details of the new smash online also.
if enough people play and enjoy the game (which is bound to happen for at least the first year), then will negative comments on the internet really matter?

I think you're just a little bit off the path here dekar, you're not wrong just slightly missing the point.

From what I understand, atilla is not expecting us to prevent people from posting negative views, he is unhappy with how previously it has been tolerated and even encouraged to the point we have had a brawl hate culture within the melee community.

No one can magically prevent people from expressing their views or being idiots and flat out insulting people for playing another game, but we can stop it from getting to the point where the community begins tolerating the abusive level actions and encourages excessive brawl hate like previously.

At least this is what I think he is trying to get at.

 

[Black Mantis]

@ Dekar289 That may not happen a great deal in Australia, but in other places particularly U.S. (and Europe) it's a common thing. It still does not make the behavior any less acceptable though.

 

[woodsta]

It seems to me that one should be able to express dislike for something regardless of how someone else might feel when they see it, as long as i'm not ACTIVELY harassing people for thinking differently... If there's a post on some public forum about the design flaws in brawl / smash4, it's sort of down to the brawl / smash4 fan to be thick skinned enough to not care, isn't it?

Like there are constantly ignorant statements about the ATs in melee being posted on the reddit, people saying brawl contains more "thinking" than melee, etc. but I don't give a ****... I know the game's good...

I can see a problem with directed harassment, but I can't see why we should all have to keep negative opinions to ourselves

Forgive me if that's not what anyone's saying - I just haven't witnessed much/any direct harassment over game preference, so it seems kind of trivial to me

 

[Oblivion]

I have another example of uncalled for rudeness from a Melee player directly to me (I am a fan of all smash titles but only play Brawl competitively).

I managed to end up at a mini Salty Suite (M2K and Armada were there) right before Super Sweet (a large Melee/PM tourney) about a week ago. I was playing a guy and I managed to kill him with an up b out of shield with Marth and he said, "What the f***, are you a Meta Knight main?" He knew before that I played Brawl, not Melee.

It was quite belittling and I didn't really know how to respond. It was just so rude...

 

[woodsta]

My friend Jeremy cops so much **** just for playing sheik. But he knows we're just kidding around - it's different I guess if you don't know the person saying it, but trash talk is kind of a part of every competitive game scene

 

[Dino63]

Wait you guys are kidding around? I really don't like shiek, but that doesn't change my opinion of Mytus, top bloke

 

[smopup]

What Oblivion said doesn't even sound like trash talk to me. Maybe the tone of the guy's voice was offensive or something, I don't know. But if this is the kind of thing that is upsetting people to the point of wanting to split the community, I have no words.

Oh yeah and Jeremy is the best. Sheik can get ****ed though.

 

[Redact]

I have another example of uncalled for rudeness from a Melee player directly to me (I am a fan of all smash titles but only play Brawl competitively).

I managed to end up at a mini Salty Suite (M2K and Armada were there) right before Super Sweet (a large Melee/PM tourney) about a week ago. I was playing a guy and I managed to kill him with an up b out of shield with Marth and he said, "What the f***, are you a Meta Knight main?" He knew before that I played Brawl, not Melee.

It was quite belittling and I didn't really know how to respond. It was just so rude...

So wait he asked you if you played a character in a different game and somehow thats belittling?

I'm sorry but in reality it sounds like you're making massive assumptions and jumping to conclusions if you're taking that as belittling.

Even if the guy didn't know if or if not you played brawl, it's not something that could be taken as an insult unless you're twisting words to fish for a way to play the victim.

I'd understand if the guy said "that's ****ing gay you must play brawl" or something along those lines, but using a tactic that's strong for a character in another game and then being asked about it is far from an insult.

 

[Attila_]

From what I understand, atilla is not expecting us to prevent people from posting negative views, he is unhappy with how previously it has been tolerated and even encouraged to the point we have had a brawl hate culture within the melee community.

No one can magically prevent people from expressing their views or being idiots and flat out insulting people for playing another game, but we can stop it from getting to the point where the community begins tolerating the abusive level actions and encourages excessive brawl hate like previously.

This is pretty much correct.

I think one thing that people forget is that the smash community is not an online one. Whenever someone posts something online, I immediately have a face I can associate with that name. And then, at some point, I will be made to associate with them.

Negativity and rudeness spread easily, and need to be stamped out here first, because their effects spread into the real world too easily.

Commenting negative views on something is obviously fine, there is just a way to do it.

 

[Oblivion]

Sorry for the double post, please delete.

 

[Oblivion]

What Oblivion said doesn't even sound like trash talk to me. Maybe the tone of the guy's voice was offensive or something, I don't know. But if this is the kind of thing that is upsetting people to the point of wanting to split the community, I have no words.

Oh yeah and Jeremy is the best. Sheik can get ****ed though.

It was all in the tone.

So wait he asked you if you played a character in a different game and somehow thats belittling?

I'm sorry but in reality it sounds like you're making massive assumptions and jumping to conclusions if you're taking that as belittling.

Even if the guy didn't know if or if not you played brawl, it's not something that could be taken as an insult unless you're twisting words to fish for a way to play the victim.

I'd understand if the guy said "that's ****ing gay you must play brawl" or something along those lines, but using a tactic that's strong for a character in another game and then being asked about it is far from an insult.

I assure you, I was not twisting anything. I was genuinely enjoying myself, not looking to be a victim or any bs. The way he said it made it similar to "that's ****ing gay you must play brawl." I know has wasn't trying to be rude, but when I'm sitting in a room full of Melee dudes and know no one and receive a comment like that I was most definitely offended. I, like most normal people, know when something offends me.

 

[Redact]

It was all in the tone.



I assure you, I was not twisting anything. I was genuinely enjoying myself, not looking to be a victim or any bs. The way he said it made it similar to "that's ****ing gay you must play brawl." I know has wasn't trying to be rude, but when I'm sitting in a room full of Melee dudes and know no one and receive a comment like that I was most definitely offended. I, like most normal people, know when something offends me.

Wait so you said he was not even trying to be rude, and you still take it to heart?

If you can't take a small remark that other people don't even consider rude or offensive, and the other guy was not trying to be rude, then I think competitive gaming may not be for you because there will always be small banter. Heck you're probably taking offence to this and you should probably just toughen up.

On top of that, this is in relation to Australia as it is in the Australian sub forum, I think if you could stick to anything related to Australian smash it would be great thanks, if you still wish to discuss this for your own region or for general smash, go make a thread in one of the more general forums please.