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The Road to Smash 4: A Plan for the Future

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Oblivion

Smash Journeyman
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From the OP,
Before I begin, I want to say that this post is not directed at anyone in particular, and is largely generalized.
Sorry if I'm stepping over boundaries by posting here, but with a first sentence like that it sure sounds like Attila is talking to everyone.

Anyways, the Melee Elitism was there intentional or not. It's bad for the community. That's all I'm getting at, I shouldn't have to argue this more.
 

PrettyCoolGuy

Smash Ace
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595
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Reading some of the first page, this is melee fans trying to deal with the frustration of their favourite game being marginalized because of the success of brawl. They're understandably worried their community will die and some want to blame brawl because it's taken what was meant to belong to melee, especially since they don't think the game will justify the investment because they don't enjoy it. Have I missed something? This seems normal to me.
They don't go about expressing themselves perfectly but I don't read in particular disrespect for the brawl community, just for the game
 
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Dino63

Smash Journeyman
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247
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i think you know
Why are these Americans pointing out old facts about US smash that's kind of irrelevant to Australia.
This thread has become pointless, nothing but nit picking and pointless arguments about how new people will react to this scene.
We are Australians, we are the most unserious country in the world, we swear a lot and mock each other openly and if people are going to be put off by conversations on smash boards or at tournaments about disliking different smash games and their scenes then there wouldn't be any smashers left
 

Black Mantis

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Writing my own road...................
Reading some of the first page, this is melee fans trying to deal with the frustration of their favourite game being marginalized because of the success of brawl. They're understandably worried their community will die and some want to blame brawl because it's taken what was meant to belong to melee, especially since they don't think the game will justify the investment because they don't enjoy it. Have I missed something? This seems normal to me.
They don't go about expressing themselves perfectly but I don't read in particular disrespect for the brawl community, just for the game

Let me know when you find a thread made by brawl players that bashes melee for getting in EVO. You won't because they don't exist.
 

cheese619

Smash Ace
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You seem salty, here let me show you the door before you embarrass yourself.

So many Americans =_=
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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Let me know when you find a thread made by brawl players that bashes melee for getting in EVO. You won't because they don't exist.
If one did exist, no one would care
as someone else already said, bashing a game isn't the same as bashing its players

and, as I said just before, it was a different situation

I was discussing Brawl on forums since back when we were calling it "Smash Bros Revolution" (for the Nintendo Revolution), I would refresh the Smash Bros. Dojo constantly for updates on Friday nights and I bought the Wii almost exclusively for Brawl

then it comes out and, idk, even as a casual player it just didn't feel right, it wasn't crafted with the same heart that melee was

I don't really care to argue whether that's a legitimate criticism of brawl or whatever, and I ended up playing competitive Brawl for years anyway, but I totally empathise with the opinions expressed in that thread
 
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Jamwa

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From what I understand, atilla is not expecting us to prevent people from posting negative views, he is unhappy with how previously it has been tolerated and even encouraged to the point we have had a brawl hate culture within the melee community.

No one can magically prevent people from expressing their views or being idiots and flat out insulting people for playing another game, but we can stop it from getting to the point where the community begins tolerating the abusive level actions and encourages excessive brawl hate like previously.
This is where this thread should have ended

i should add though, oblivion, asking someone if they play meta knight is only insulting to low tier mains and you were playing marth.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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I think you're just a little bit off the path here dekar, you're not wrong just slightly missing the point.

From what I understand, atilla is not expecting us to prevent people from posting negative views, he is unhappy with how previously it has been tolerated and even encouraged to the point we have had a brawl hate culture within the melee community.

No one can magically prevent people from expressing their views or being idiots and flat out insulting people for playing another game, but we can stop it from getting to the point where the community begins tolerating the abusive level actions and encourages excessive brawl hate like previously.

At least this is what I think he is trying to get at.
This is pretty much correct.

I think one thing that people forget is that the smash community is not an online one. Whenever someone posts something online, I immediately have a face I can associate with that name. And then, at some point, I will be made to associate with them.

Negativity and rudeness spread easily, and need to be stamped out here first, because their effects spread into the real world too easily.

Commenting negative views on something is obviously fine, there is just a way to do it.
Please stop confusing the point.

Please stop derailing the thread.

Direct your attention here, because this is the core message of this conversation.
 

Luco

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I only just waltzed in to this thread and didn't go through page 2 (sorry if I missed critical discussion :/ ), but I think I might add a little something here.

I'm a player who's been networking across a rather large portion of the boards for quite some time. Whilst doing so, I have bumped in to certain aus players in particular threads at particular times but for the most part, I seem to notice the Australian community tends to keep where it is. It's nothing bad, but I think if some players aren't sure what I mean when I say "it's the insults and constant rejection of Brawl over the years and in some cases, very much vice versa, that have made me almost leave the boards on several occasions", then I think I should explain where I see all the cynicism.

I was a really early smash 4 speculator and resided in that one thread where the discussion was meant to take place. In that time I was pretty quickly invited into what was then known as the 'Smash 4 BR' or basically, the speculation room for "intelligent" posters. That group has had its own unique set of advantages and disadvantages as a community and to go into that right now would be a digression, but what i'm trying to say by it is that yes, i've had quite a bit of experience with the speculation community.

Once the actual forums were created for smash 4, they went chaotic pretty quickly. Most of it was pretty decent but I'd say this is where my point lies. So many people from both the Melee and Brawl scenes went here to "speculate" on the new game by saying how it would "fix" all the problems of previous games. And naturally this incited flame wars. But as silly as the premise sounds, some really off-hand, hurtful things were said to the detriment of both communities and... well basically it just sucked.

I think the Australian community has had this problem a lot less - I feel that most of us are far more insular and as a result, we tend to be more closely banded and less prone to this kind of bickering. But I will say that even here I have noticed little under-handed jabs that really just aren't conducive to anything. Hell, it even happened in the most recent BAM thread.

I'm not going to say that melee players should not express their opinion on a game that is still in alpha, nor am I attempting to say they should not have the freedom to give their opinions on Brawl, however I feel more sensitivity is needed when doing so. An opinion is very much an opinion, but, intentional or not, the "x game sucks" approach to posting is a bad way to do it. Simply because it gives a connotation that the players that play that game are stupid for liking it. And this puts down the players of that game. Indeed, tact is needed, because I know at least in the case of many Brawl players, we end up feeling like wounded animals that continuously have their bandages torn off and the scabs ripped out. It sounds extreme but it's gotten to the point where i'd rather people said "well x and y mechanics for this game I feel are a bit clunky/un-needed and I don't really enjoy them but I suppose you could if you played the game from this perspective." Like it sounds like I want those players to dance around the point they're trying to say for the sake of not offending others, but maybe that is actually needed for a while so that NEW players can come into the community with a more objective view towards the series.

Anyway, i've basically just re-iterated what other people have said i'm sure. I just wanted to point out that the insults are real and have been going on and I think especially in the case of the Brawl community who tend to network across the boards a little more (no offense to the melee players, it's just an observation i've made), we feel that sting a little more than the people who observe it.

Aaaaaand i've kinda turned it into just Brawl and Melee but I am looking at it in a lens which aims to support the smash 4 players.

But yeah, that's my thought process atm. Could have been better worded but I think i've kinda said what I wanted to say.
 

woodsta

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To me, it's like saying chess players should accept that checkers is just as deep and should be considered equal. I'm not going to be mean to checkers players, but I simply do not accept that they are on the same level of depth. If that offends you, I'm sorry, but if you disagree, you should have the confidence in your position to not care what I think.
 

smopup

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I think most will agree the argument over whether the Brawl gameplay mechanics are interesting/positive/tolerable/fun/competitive/creative/whatever has been totally done to death and isn't really worth revisiting. People who love them have the right to enjoy them, and those of us who think they're **** have the right to disdain them, almost everyone has an entrenched opinion by now and arguing about them is going to convince nobody. Is it fair to ask that we respect the legitimacy of Brawl competition and don't sabotage your scene with negativity? Yeah, I do think that's reasonable, and even worthy of being addressed as a serious issue. We might think your taste in game is poor, but it's rude and detrimental to rain on your hype parade at your co-located tournaments.

But with that said, the accusation that 64/Melee/P:M enthusiasts are somehow out of line for expressing our strong disappointment at the gameplay direction that Smash 4 is evidently taking is unfair. For most of us, we've had a passion for playing Smash games for more than a decade, and despite being disappointed in what Brawl turned out to be and resultingly extremely guarded in our expectations we can't help but feel some level of emotional investment in the potential of a new installment. We are perfectly within our rights to criticise what we don't like in advance of its release, especially in the slim chance that our reaction could influence Nintendo to make changes that swing back towards and evolve upon the gameplay paradigm we prefer. That ideal may be at odds with your preferred outcomes, but that doesn't make it 'unacceptable'.

If it does play like it looks so far when it comes out, it looks like Smash 4 is going to be the 'new Brawl' - for better or worse, a game geared for your enthusiasts, not ours - but even though I was disappointed with Brawl as a game, I'm glad it happened. Despite being adversarial at times, Melee and Brawl have overall had a mutually beneficial relationship, and not just in terms of being able to afford venues and ****. Brawl's competitive scene was built off the foundation that Melee had built over many years, and Brawl reinvigorated the scene as a whole and brought new blood to Melee. This time the competitive foundation for the new game will also be from the Brawl scene, and Melee is thriving and drawing new players even without a new game. Even so, I still think even more growth opportunities from crossover interest in a unified scene are there to be taken for both sides if we approach it with the right attitude.
 

woodsta

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Warning Received
Yo why'd Mytus get warned for that? It's a legitimate comment on the state of the thread
 

Shaya

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I should've made it more obvious that the thread is going to be taken more seriously and be moderated more seriously than most other threads around here. The Australian section for the most part is pretty liberal.

Stuff like the shadowloo thread we're looking at keeping clean/seriousish because we're representing Australia on an international level. Attila chose to advertise this thread on facebook to the international audience, hence why people were coming in and most could see, at that point, that it was a pretty solid discussion which we would've like to maintain.

I agree that the main intent of the thread being a bit of a 'warning' to the community took place, and that there wasn't much else constructive going on at that point. People shouldn't feel the need to take that opportunity to 'ensure its death', so to speak. It was probably coming close to its end anyway, but I would of heavily preferred a PM or a message of "Can this thread go anywhere else at this point" rather than the lol/spam/strawman posts.
 
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