The Road to Smash 4: A Plan for the Future

[Attila_]

Before I begin, I want to say that this post is not directed at anyone in particular, and is largely generalized. I also want to apologize to those new members of the scene, who may interpret this as an attack of sorts. Read the whole thing before replying please.

The Smash Bros for WiiU invitational tournament today at E3 caused quite a stir among all factions of the smash community, who all collectively took the social media to express their thoughts and opinions. Some posts expressed hope, others had questions, while others posters were simply unimpressed. Which is fine; everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and not everyone is going to like the same things.

As a general rule, however, posts can be split into two main categories: The brawl players and the melee players. Brawl players essentially received an upgraded version of their game, and were happy for it. While the melee players felt cheated by Nintendo, expressing distaste for the floaty, slow paced nature of the game. It appeared that melee players expected melee V2.0, despite the fact that this clearly was never going to happen. Sighting a lack of dash dancing and wavedashing, they took to social media, and began bashing the game that they have never even played.

This behavior is unacceptable.

Many people, including myself, love brawl and the mechanics that make up the game. It is a different beast to melee, but a beast nonetheless. Options exist, even if they are different to those you are currently used to. And the restriction of certain options only increases the value of correct option selection.

In general, I feel there are two main reasons why brawl is dying:

1. A broken metagame in a serious need of a patch
2. The constant negativity of the melee community

For those of you who feel that mechanics are the let down, those same mechanics led thousands of people to tournaments over the past 6 years; we don't have a problem with them. They are different to melee mechanics and that is fine.

Point number one is Nintendo's fault, and the fault of the community for not banning MK earlier. This move would have freed up the metagame and led to increased viability of the rest of the cast. I feel for Smash 4, all ruleset committees must be more diligent for the sake of everyone.

And point two... It's really silly. Over the past 5 years I've spent in the scene, I've seen this negativity time and time again, both in person and online. At times it seems like simple banter, but over time, that elitist mentality alienates members of the scene, making them feel unwelcome, and eventually, causes them to leave the scene.

More than anything, it's just really unnecessary.

So in the post-invitational mess all over facebook, the hype began to get lost in the negativity. Negativity from a group of people who were hyped for a game that they were never going to like. All this does is take away from all the people that do want to play this game.

And so, for the future of the smash community, this negativity needs to end now.

I'm not sure why the brawl community tolerated it for so many years. I know personally I grew into the scene and just became accustomed to the generalized melee arrogance. I didn't like it, but I didn't feel that I was able to do anything about it. And perhaps even worse, I couldn't see the global effects that this attitude would have on an otherwise popular game.

And now, in the leadership position that I am in, I have decided, it ends here.

Should the negativity continue to fester, I feel it best that the community splits into two. This is something that I feel the brawl community should have done a number of years ago; it would be a lot healthier for it. The melee community has become toxic, unable to tolerate anything outside itself. It stands outside the greater smash community, only claiming unity when assistance is needed.

And if this does not change, I feel it best for the community to split.

In order to capitalize on the influx of popularity upon release, and to maintain optimal new members to the smash community, change is needed. If melee causes harm to Smash 4, I will indeed rally to split communities, I feel that should melee remain selfish, the rest of us need to be cut free from her.

There is no potential for growth in that environment.

Once again, I apologize if I offended anyone, but this genuinely how I feel. There is no way forward the ways things are currently. And in order to forge a path, we need to work together, or go our separate ways.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Criticizing smash 4 doesn't immediately put you in the "melee elitist who was hoping for melee 2.0" camp, y'know

 

[FinXx]

But wait, doesn't every game get bashed for not being perfect when it comes out?

As a melee player, sure I'm disappointed, but I never expected Nintendo to drop their entire gaming philosophy and give a game that catered towards competitive play. That's not Nintendo. Melee is not Nintendo. Smash 4 represents what Nintendo wants Smash to be, not what the heavy competitors demand.

Sure, we're going to be let down, and I agree that some people are overreacting, but I think demanding a split in the community because of "some toxic behaviour" is also overreacting.

 

[Noxus]

I have only been in the community for a little while but I can see where you are coming from and I agree. I am a melee player but i think everyone needs to be a bit more accepting of all smash games, I am eagerly awaiting smash 4. I know it won't be melee 2.0 and i dont think it will just be brawl 2.0 either, I think it will be it's own game and I think it will be able to have some balance changes unlike past games.
So let's not bash it, if we dont like it then we can each go back and main our respective smash games.

 

[Nido]

I'm hating on smash 4 because it's looking worse than brawl, like, what the **** is up with no ledgehogging?

 

[SurPr15e]

I know that Melee was one of the best games in the Smash series with Sakurai himself saying it was one of his most sharpest and well made games. However, we all need change in our lives. Smash 4 is meant to be it's own unique game and not Melee 2.0. If it was Melee 2.0, then it would just be basically the same as Melee and we just have a better version of Melee with better graphics. The community knew it was not going to be exactly like Melee but yet they still got hype for it. Sometimes change can be good. Just because, the game looked slow does not mean that it's like Brawl or slower. It's still in development and it might change. Change is something that happens in gaming, the world and our everyday lives. We need to accept that change whether we like it or not. Smash 4 might not be Melee but it's unique and might even be good.

 

[Jamwa]

Well said Atilla.

I think demanding a split in the community because of "some toxic behaviour" is also overreacting.

It's not just "some". When I joined the scene I didn't know people's attitudes, and felt kind of excluded from the community as a Brawl player due to some of these posts on Smashboards (not just in Australia). In Atilla's position, I understand that he views this as necessary to expand the Brawl scene, since no one else is taking up a position of leadership and stopping the negativity.

Of course now I don't mind any of it, but it can be very unwelcoming for new players coupled with the current elitist view that is almost everywhere else (YouTube, Twitch, Twitter (not that I use Twitter)).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think if you need to look to other people for validation when it comes to liking something, instead of just liking it for your own reasons

the problem lies with you, not anybody else

 

[Splice]

This is pretty accurate in a lot of ways but at the moment Smash in Australia is partly supported by the FGC. Essentially the games would be sharing the spotlight at FGC events anyway, unless one game was to suffer. And splitting scenes means splitting resources, it's not possible to propose such a thing without damaging both communities. Basically, dealing with negativity is actually a better strategy then stepping away from it.

So the discussion is preferably not "lets split the scenes" but "can you just for one second not be a total ****wit?" to the general community.

There are going to b new people who have never short hopped with Fox in any Smash game in their life, coming to play Smash 4
There are going to be people who think it's kind of weird people still play Melee even.
There are going to be people who fell in love with Melee last year, and see Smash 4 as an entry point into the scene (I already have met a few)

And of course there are the current members of the community,
Ready to play Smash 4 if it's good or bad,
Some already dissatisfied with what they see
Some ready to work hard to make the game work, but ready to step back to Melee at the same time (me)
And others

You basically have to put what you wanted aside, and how you feel aside, and literally nurture new members of the community even though they play a game you may despise on principle. Be ready to play Smash 4, love it or hate it, or enter solely Melee/P:M if you can't deal with it.

You're not in the wrong for expressing opinions, or being upset. But it's in the communites interest, at large, if you Handle It and welcome what Smash 4 brings with open arms.

I think Smash 4 looks way better than people realise, but even if I'd come from the future only to discover that it's functionality is more disabled than Cartoon Network Punchtime Explosion, I'd still say all this. There are people who will want to play it and be good at it, and that should be respected, ideally, by all members of the community.

 

[smopup]

I'd be very surprised if any Melee player expected it to be Melee 2.0. Instead of being mad about it not being like Melee, I think most are disappointed that it's so similar to Brawl. It's perfectly reasonable for people to want Smash 4 to be its own completely different "beast", and I don't think what was shown today met those expectations. Very little of what we saw was fresh and exciting (at least from my perspective), and some of the changes to the game's mechanics are definitely worthy of criticism. It's pretty hard to show enthusiasm for fewer movement options and a less dynamic ledge game among other things.

 

[Dekar289]

Essentially the games would be sharing the spotlight at FGC events anyway, unless one game was to suffer. And splitting scenes means splitting resources, it's not possible to propose such a thing without damaging both communities.

/thread

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

Do you think that the negative attitude you observe towards brawl has had a negative impact on both the brawl and melee communities or specifically brawl?

 

[Attila_]

/thread

Good job discrediting my genuine concern for the longevity of the smash community. This comment helps no one, it simply downplays a very real problem.

Seriously mate, you're better than that.

 

[Anders]

I think if you need to look to other people for validation when it comes to liking something, instead of just liking it for your own reasons

the problem lies with you, not anybody else

Whereas that's partly true, there's really no justifiable reason to be a **** to people about which game you might prefer. I do feel like the threat of a community split is a bit melodramatic though. Sometimes people just have low self-awareness or no filter and need to be reminded to stop being ***** to others.

Honestly, it did leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth when a PM player on netplay was being obnoxious about how 'Project M is objectively a better game than Melee'. He couldn't seem to accept that I simply prefer the way Melee feels/plays and was just kind of being a jerk about it. Somehow the conversation immediately went from 'so which do you prefer?' to 'mines better than yours!' and even though it didn't make me want to stop playing Melee or anything, it left a pretty bad impression. Same with another Project M player who was ****-talking me when he won games (and not even in an ironic way).

Thankfully, I've also played with a few PM players that were awesome, and the Melee community has been insanely welcoming. If I'd played with those two PM players before people like Phil, or Billy, or Matt G though, I might have thought twice about getting involved in the community myself.

So basically, absolutely nothing good can possibly come from being a **** to somebody who is new to the community. I don't think the issue Attila speaks of is Melee players not liking Brawl or (what they've seen of) Smash 4, but more that sometimes people can be really ****ing obnoxious about not liking things and it can be off-putting to newer players.

 

[Splice]

It's pretty hard to show enthusiasm for fewer movement options and a less dynamic ledge game among other things.

That's cool and I agree, but this isn't reason to pull out your pitch forks. Which no-one has yet!
But it felt like that was the case for Melee'ers on Brawl when I joined the scene in 2009 and later when Phil was running things solely pretty much.

Like a minor example; it's commonly known between the group of VIC smashers I play with that I think P:M is ****ing terrible, but at the same time I try to support people like Jamwa who are genuinely interested in the game as much as I can.

(P.S. A less dynamic ledge game is hardly a fair call at this point. So little is known about it, it's a unique feature to the smash series)

 

[Dekar289]

Good job discrediting my genuine concern for the longevity of the smash community. This comment helps no one, it simply downplays a very real problem.

Seriously mate, you're better than that.

k longer version, but by the way, i find it hard to believe that your concern is for the longevity of the smash scene, when melee and PM are bigger than ever right now

as bill said, splitting up not really an option
also saying there are 2 reasons for brawl dying out, and that melee elitism is one of them, is a stretch (completely... made up?)
melee is at evo and mlg, drawing record numbers of participants and viewers, surely this contributed to the brawl falloff

people comparing the new smash to melee (and brawl) is inevitable, they talk about it because they love smash and enjoy talking about smash
this will continue to happen in the future

we still share tvs/laptops/projectors/streams, we're still one big community


tl:dr - splitting scene would be very bad for both, melee 'elitism' will continue, deal with it

 

[Splice]

Melee elitism definitely hindered Brawl's growth in Australia at several points, but it died because it is really really bad.

If Smash 4 is as bad as Brawl, then we just need to kindly wean people off it onto Melee. But that's a stretch; we always thought Brawl had issues and would get better, now 6 years down the track... Metaknight and Ice Climbers alone in the top 5 of many tournaments... Do I even need to explain? As Attila said, people making rulesets and big decisions need to be way more on point with balancing the game through rulesets, just in case the game is this bad.

Optimally just turn Melee Elitism into Melee Kindness through better use of tact when it comes to new players who don't know what to make of all this.

 

[Dekar289]

There is no way forward the ways things are currently.

yes, there is

new smash is release, hugely popular for at least a year, hopefully longer if game is gud
everyone plays it, discovers new stuff, etc etc
melee tournaments also continue, either on crts or (hopefully) crts on wiiu vc

the huge influx of existing and new players for the new smash will drown out the few people (if any) who immediately reject smash 4.
no problem imo

oops dub post

 

[Splice]

yes, there is

new smash is release, hugely popular for at least a year, hopefully longer if game is gud
everyone plays it, discovers new stuff, etc etc
melee tournaments also continue, either on crts or (hopefully) crts on wiiu vc

the huge influx of existing and new players for the new smash will drown out the few people (if any) who immediately reject smash 4.
no problem imo

It's beautiful because it's an easy reality

 

[Shaya]

I'm concerned about Smash 4 competitively.
But "melee elitism" and general anti-community behaviour which was pretty rife forever to the point at which Brawl was dead... Is a boulder I believe existed. If it even remotely happens again I'd rather us, or rather them be separated. And imo there's a lot of reasons for it being for the better (a transition from monstrosities known to the public as CRTs to light and cozy silky beautiful cover LCDs [when you move them])

Being told that you shouldn't enjoy a game you like, seen as a "widely" accepted opinion by the pillars/royalty/long timers of the scene is cancerous. I may not like Smash 4, and may even be inclined to say I think Brawl is better in the aspects I care for (big surprise here though, I like brawl), but I'm not going to try to convince a new generation of players that they shouldn't enjoy their game. When the people who win tournaments are being slandered by parts of the scene for not being good at all, worthless, etc etc, it sticks, it frustrates. Manipulation is great and all, everyone has an agenda, but Smash is a grand hobby, with what I call an amazing WORLDWIDE community, and its because of the people who give to it, not because of the widely tolerated cynicism that makes this so.

 

[Jamwa]

melee 'elitism' will continue, deal with it

y tho???

 

[Dekar289]

but I'm not going to try to convince a new generation of players that they shouldn't enjoy their game.

neither is anyone else?

When the people who win tournaments are being slandered by parts of the scene for not being good at all, worthless, etc etc, it sticks, it frustrates.

when has this ever happened?!

 

[Redact]

When it comes to why melee players are generally unhappy with whats been shown of the new smash is that it looks like another brawl rather than its own smash game. Like each game is very clearly its own iteration thus far and what most of us (I can't speak for everyone) wanted was not melee 2.0, we wanted another whole new iteration. What it looks like we will be getting is brawl 2.0 which is what is dissapointing.

While in one aspect we have nintendo running their own tournaments and recognition for the community which is great, we also have the development side appearing to completely dismiss the majority of the players appeals for a different game. See the round table discussion to understand what I am referring to.

The majority of the melee community has matured with age. The things many of us have said or done 6 years ago will not be the same as now. The general age of melee has grown from mid teens to early 20s and our behavior has changed as well. We all understand that hurling abuse wont help anyone, if anything all most of us will do is try to convert people to melee or pm through actual reason and niceness rather than bullying.

Splitting communities wont help either game, this is simply not a solution. You may get people running meets for 1 or 2 games only, but when it comes to our locals or majors we need to work together. We may be able to split off from the FGC but splitting into our own divisions for iterations is not the way to go.

I personally don't believe things will go the same as previously in terms of the negativity. I do wonder for the future on smash 4 in terms of its long term competitive draw and spectator appeal of the game does continue to be the same as brawl, but these are other issues. I don't think smash 4 will face the same road as brawl, it instead will face the path that has already been paved that the abuse and bullying is just not the way to go, and instead needs to co-exist with other smash games through mutual respect.

I think this is an over-reaction to the initial negativity but it is justified. The future is bright for smash 4, you just need to place a bit more faith in the melee community's maturity now.

 

[Attila_]

k longer version, but by the way, i find it hard to believe that your concern is for the longevity of the smash scene, when melee and PM are bigger than ever right now

as bill said, splitting up not really an option
also saying there are 2 reasons for brawl dying out, and that melee elitism is one of them, is a stretch (completely... made up?)
melee is at evo and mlg, drawing record numbers of participants and viewers, surely this contributed to the brawl falloff

people comparing the new smash to melee (and brawl) is inevitable, they talk about it because they love smash and enjoy talking about smash
this will continue to happen in the future

we still share tvs/laptops/projectors/streams, we're still one big community


tl:dr - splitting scene would be very bad for both, melee 'elitism' will continue, deal with it

Once again, completely dismissive. A number of brawl players have already stepped in and called it a factor, denying it doesn't quite work here.

And melee/PM are big right now, but I think we all know that won't last forever. Hell Australian melee virtually died a few years ago. In fact, I was one of a handful of people trying to keep it together. It might not be anytime soon, but this will eventually happen again. In comparison, new iterations of the game will always bring new blood to keep the scene alive. Outside of the present, longevity exists in supporting a new scene.

Comparisons are fine, as are criticisms. But comments that negativity label the game or the community remain unnecessary.

And if melee elitism will continue, then you can get used to running your own ****ing scene. Comments like that really push my point; @ Redact , even if your scene is older, examples like this show that it clearly hasn't grown up yet.

 

[Redact]

Once again, completely dismissive. A number of brawl players have already stepped in and called it a factor, denying it doesn't quite work here.

And melee/PM are big right now, but I think we all know that won't last forever. Hell Australian melee virtually died a few years ago. In fact, I was one of a handful of people trying to keep it together. It might not be anytime soon, but this will eventually happen again. In comparison, new iterations of the game will always bring new blood to keep the scene alive. Outside of the present, longevity exists in supporting a new scene.

Comparisons are fine, as are criticisms. But comments that negativity label the game or the community remain unnecessary.

And if melee elitism will continue, then you can get used to running your own ****ing scene. Comments like that really push my point; @ Redact , even if your scene is older, examples like this show that it clearly hasn't grown up yet.

There will always be examples and we can attempt to moderate them but we cannot prevent them. I haven't seen any excessive bashing quite yet myself or any bullying or such, but I know it will happen and probably already is which is what you've obviously seen.

When it comes to the maturity I am referring to the majority of players, not all of them. It previously was a minority that respected brawl and did not give it flak where as now I feel its flipped around so whilst the critic is the common player, the bully is now the minority.

I'm happy to work with you as a TO to actually enforce anti bullying behaviour as I have seen first hand myself people leave due to it, and I want to make the community more friendly than it used to be. I think we are heading in the right direction and all have the same common goal so rather than anyone cutting anything out, you need to realise we are not each other's enemies, instead we have people within our groups (more on the melee side very obviously) that may need to step back and re-think their behaviour.

We both have experience in this matter, one on the receiving end and one on the giving end, so together we really should be able to prevent this becoming common place thus instead create the environment you are looking for atilla.

 

[Dino63]

Yep, smash 4 was always going to inflame the scene both in a negative and positive way.

As a melee player, I have no gripe with the brawl scene, I had fun with brawl but grew out of it, my main problem is smash 4, not the game, but what it will lead to:

I remember when brawl came out (well in japan at least) and everyone was buying consoles from japan to play the game which was fine, but I remember playing it and loving it. However after 6 months and brawl getting released in Aus, by then the game was ripped to shreds, tier lists made, most techs found and the general game play style was created. I got a basic understanding of if you just do more research than the other opponents, you'll win. Then like most melee die hards, went back to playing melee. Don't get me wrong, brawl is a good game but I'll only play it around doyles who just play for the fun of it. Being playing melee for 12 years and going to tourneys for 8 years, not stopping any time soon.

My point is, the M2Ks and many others are going to tear this game apart just like brawl and suck the fun out of it and yeah I know everyone has different opinions and blah blah blah but I know my chances of playing proper tourneys with smash 4 are very limited by the knowledge that the game will already be ripped apart before I get to play it.

Oh wells

 

[S.D]

Attila - I fully understand your frustrations, and I respect your viewpoint, but I don't think this is a blanket issue on any account.

Firstly what you see as 'bashing' a game we haven't played, from my perspective it's largely a robust discussion. If people have negative things to say about the gameplay it isn't necessarily because they wanted or expected melee 2.0, it's because they have legitimate concerns about the direction of the series from a competitive standpoint. I think this is healthier than blindly creating false hype and jumping on the bandwagon without hesitation. Sure some people are bashing it for the sake of it, but my personal arguments have been based on more than "it's not melee".

On the other side of the coin you appear to be prematurely defending the game's mechanics which you yourself have also not tested. Why should your standpoint have any more legitimacy than people more critical of what they see? You point to reduction of options as a positive, forcing players to adapt "correctly", I see it as a negative, an inhibitor of creativity and depth. That's fine, we each have our opinion, and can argue it, but neither of us is categorically correct and I resent your suggestion that critical analysis of something, be it positive or negative, is "unacceptable".

Regardless of what Smash 4 turns out to be, I will support the game, the community, the new players, the scene at large, because I love smash, I love the community and I feel privileged to be a part of it. That doesn't mean I have to embrace it as a competitive game, time will tell.

As for melee elitism, I won't argue that this has been an issue in the past, but I think it has largely dropped off as people grew up somewhat. Yes there is a minority that still holds these attitudes but I don't think it is as prevalent as you infer. If anything these feelings are probably exacerbated by the fact that Brawl is currently somewhat cornered, and any negativity is intensified because of its perceived position right now. As a melee player, I would like to think that I have lent my support to the community in general wherever I can, despite my lack of interest in Brawl as a player - be it recording and uploading videos, commentating for streams, spectating, encouraging players - whatever it may be, I would like to think I have not detracted from the Brawl scene in general.

Another issue I see with your idea of cutting the cancer of melee or whatever you want to call it, is that a LARGE proportion of incoming players will actually have been more exposed to melee than Brawl, despite the new games apparent similarities to the latter. These players are likely to want crossover with melee, possibly moreso than Brawl, given the point of difference and popularity of melee. Ostracising them from this opportunity seems to make little sense on the whole. You paint melee players as a sinister breed of brawl bashing hatred, when I'm sure there are just as many people on the other side of the fence. Immaturity and bullying should be dealt with on an individual and personal level, not as an extension to everyone on 'their side of the divide'.

EDIT: In fact I have entered Brawl events in the past to help increase numbers for the benefit of the scene. 2 BAMs ago was the last time I did this after (no names) I was trash talked, sneered at and was the subject of real condescension from an opponent. So believe me poor attitudes exist in Brawl players too.

I have good friends on both sides of the community, yourself included, and I appreciate all the work you've put in for us and to keep the scene alive. My personal opinion is to target individual behaviour that causes harm to the scene AS A WHOLE, not simply vilify us for preferring melee.

 

[S.D]

Double post for prominence.

Praxis has summarised my viewpoint quite well in THIS POST

Essentially it eschews arguments about melee specific ATs and focuses on what makes a game competitive and the early indications that Smash 4 deliberately flies in the face of them.

EDIT: THIS POST from the same thread reflects my concerns about depth. Very interesting.

Read the whole thread if you have time, it's full of thought out rational responses (including one of my own see if you can pick it out).

Double edit: I actually believe while the invitational was made to look like an olive branch to the competitive community, it was more likely a chance for Sakurai to take a look at what our best players can do in order to further stamp out any competitive tactics they successfully employed. He has stated many times previously that he wants "everyone to win" he believes "smash is a party game" and wants everyone on the same playing field.

 

[woodsta]

For me at least, especially as a game designer, it is frustrating to see a game get the spotlight because it's new characters beating each other up on new stages INSTEAD of because the hitboxes are moving in more elegant, complex, deep ways. Especially when the hitboxes are moving in (provably) clunkier, less deep ways. It makes me feel like I'm in the minority in terms of the reason I play smash. I'd play melee even if it were just hitboxes. I wish we lived in a world where game designers were lauded for making deep games first and foremost, but that generally isn't the case. Melee is looking more and more like a fluke

But I don't think people have to be ***** to each other for enjoying different games for different reasons. It's easy to forget that everyone's brains work in COMPLETELY different ways, and we should have compassion for one another because of that. I can't know what it's like to think brawl is just as good as melee, or that smash 4 looks promising, but the reverse is true as well. It all comes down to just being nice to one another.

Just my 2c y'all

 

[Cup]

I think what needs to be understood here is that with each inclusion of a smash title comes a new wave of players. As a predominant melee player I was let down at first by smash 4 because, yes I will admit, it wasnt melee, but after reviewing the content shown a second time it will definitely have potential, this game is still a demo but it's being treated as a final product. A lot can change between now and release.

On the topic of brawl vs melee, there should never be a division, both carry the name "Super Smash Bros." And both are simply a variation of a game we all love to play. Personally I can't stand the way brawl plays but that doesn't mean I have the right to deny someone else playing it, heck I played it myself when it came out. One thing I never understood is how someone playing brawl or someone playing melee effects the you, its your choice to play one game, the other or both, sure brawl is slower and more floaty than melee but the game is a solid product, apart from meta knight...and tripping, it is as structurally sound as a game as melee, just different and so will smash 4. We want to bring people to smash, not drive them away.

The one thing melee does well and the reason i love it is freedom of movement which opens unlimited doors for potential allowing creativity. One thing brawl does well is that it teaches you patience and the value of a well timed hit. Smash 4 will be a middle ground of these and while it most likely wont have wavedashing, l canceling or smash d.i to name a few it would highly benefit from melee's dash dancing. The ability to change direction quickly feels almost necessary at times as both an offensive and defensive option.

I may be new to the scene, but believe me, everyone I have spoken to has been nothing but welcoming with open arms regardless of whether they play Brawl, Melee or P:M, it's the reason I keep comong back and Smash 4 will bring more good than people think. Anyone who cant understand and respect a persons choice to play a game they enjoy will find themselves in a very awkward, non sociable position.

As for the invitational, I think people are reading into it too much. Smart move by nintendo to let some pro's demo an unfinished game to gauge everyones feedback. I have no doubt this game will be subject to many changes before its final release and until then I think we should leave everything to speculation. The only things that should be treated as confirmed are characters and maybe stages.

As for your concerns attila, like I said im new and I may not know the history of our smash scene very well but I hope we can all move forward as one community to over take other fighting communities and make "Super Smash Bros." The best fighting community around the world regardless of whether we play 64, melee, brawl or smash 4

 

[Atticus]

I think most will agree the argument over whether the Brawl gameplay mechanics are interesting/positive/tolerable/fun/competitive/creative/whatever has been totally done to death and isn't really worth revisiting. People who love them have the right to enjoy them, and those of us who think they're **** have the right to disdain them, almost everyone has an entrenched opinion by now and arguing about them is going to convince nobody. Is it fair to ask that we respect the legitimacy of Brawl competition and don't sabotage your scene with negativity? Yeah, I do think that's reasonable, and even worthy of being addressed as a serious issue. We might think your taste in game is poor, but it's rude and detrimental to rain on your hype parade at your co-located tournaments.

But with that said, the accusation that 64/Melee/P:M enthusiasts are somehow out of line for expressing our strong disappointment at the gameplay direction that Smash 4 is evidently taking is unfair. For most of us, we've had a passion for playing Smash games for more than a decade, and despite being disappointed in what Brawl turned out to be and resultingly extremely guarded in our expectations we can't help but feel some level of emotional investment in the potential of a new installment. We are perfectly within our rights to criticise what we don't like in advance of its release, especially in the slim chance that our reaction could influence Nintendo to make changes that swing back towards and evolve upon the gameplay paradigm we prefer. That ideal may be at odds with your preferred outcomes, but that doesn't make it 'unacceptable'.

If it does play like it looks so far when it comes out, it looks like Smash 4 is going to be the 'new Brawl' - for better or worse, a game geared for your enthusiasts, not ours - but even though I was disappointed with Brawl as a game, I'm glad it happened. Despite being adversarial at times, Melee and Brawl have overall had a mutually beneficial relationship, and not just in terms of being able to afford venues and ****. Brawl's competitive scene was built off the foundation that Melee had built over many years, and Brawl reinvigorated the scene as a whole and brought new blood to Melee. This time the competitive foundation for the new game will also be from the Brawl scene, and Melee is thriving and drawing new players even without a new game. Even so, I still think even more growth opportunities from crossover interest in a unified scene are there to be taken for both sides if we approach it with the right attitude.

 

[Shaya]

Is it fair to ask that we respect the legitimacy of Brawl competition and don't sabotage your scene with negativity? Yeah, I do think that's reasonable, and even worthy of being addressed as a serious issue.

That's all I'm pretty sure we want, with Smash 4 rather Brawl. If its remotely a problem again under similar circumstances, then ****; ****, ****. ****. ****. ****. ****. A lot of the newer players coming into the scene right now are already melee preferentials, so there's a whole layer of players that aren't the mature 20 year old somethings that is touted now; ones that have experienced the negativity on both sides and hopefully won't remain ignorant/tolerant of it when it next comes around.

 

[Redact]

That's all I'm pretty sure we want, with Smash 4 rather Brawl. If its remotely a problem again under similar circumstances, then ****; ****, ****. ****. ****. ****. ****. A lot of the newer players coming into the scene right now are already melee preferentials, so there's a whole layer of players that aren't the mature 20 year old somethings that is touted now; ones that have experienced the negativity on both sides and hopefully won't remain ignorant/tolerant of it when it next comes around.

That's what I at least myself as a TO and pretty prominent member Australian of the community am going to enforce where necassary where I can. The sort of behaviour that was tolerated previously with brawl simply will not be allowed to happen again. I'd rather see people banned from tournaments and forums instead of communities crumbling through bullying and abuse.

It sounds damn cheesy but i'ts a real problem with real consequences anywhere else. Whether it be in the work place or at school, our community should not be different when it comes to tolerating any form of negativity like previously.

I'd rather not have to ever deal with anything actually happening, because that would be easiest and best, but its something that no doubt we will end up dealing with.

I'm not going to prevent things from happening, but I'll be doing my best to remove anyone that is a problem at all to our community.

 

[D.J Cat]

Refer to my post in this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/brisbane-southside-social-meet-up-of-kings-ii.355846/

*old man rant to come later if anyone gives a ****...*

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

The biggest problem I see is how tournaments are going to be run in the future. There is simply no space/time to have 4 games running 8 events. Does it mean brawl will only have 1 stock singles? No doubles for PM? Due to the clearly slow nature of the game will we go straight to 1 or 2 stock rule sets for smash 4?

 

[Dekar289]

@ Darkwing SykeDuk : general consensus seems to be that smash 4 will, at least initially, replace brawl

@ Attila_ : i'm not sure we're on the same page here.
melee and p:m have way more entrants, spectators, way more MEETS (when was the last brawl meet!?), overall more passion from their communities to the game.
at what point does celebrating these games become 'elitism'?
from what i've seen, melee/p:m players still give tips to brawl players when they can, help with setups, all that good stuff

really having trouble understanding the issue here, beyond an overreaction to facebook comments about smash 4
please enlighten me (<-- not sarcasm)

 

[Anders]

The thing is, it's very easy to celebrate the greatness of Melee without disparaging the other games or the players who choose to play them. I agree with you that this all might be a bit of an overreaction, but there's nothing wrong with taking preventative measures to ensure that people don't take their criticism too far.

As far as respect goes, Helping with set ups and whatnot is fantastic, but it's pretty bare-minimum if you then (not you in particular of course) start talking about how **** their game is either at the event, on the forums, or both.

Seriously, there's so much to love about Melee, and it's pretty easy to talk about those things without putting emphasis on how much better you think it is than the other games.

 

[PKBeam]

Great post and insight, Attila.
[2c] tbh, I can understand how Melee players feel because I felt cheated after realising recently that Smash is leaning towards sales. I know how frustrated people can get and I don't blame Melee players for taking out their anger on Brawl/Smash 4. Some people develop a superior attitude towards Brawl/Smash 4 out of their frustration and it's not entirely their fault for doing so. It needs to stop but at the same time you gotta empathise. Some people just aren't that good at controlling their emotions. If Smash 4 had turned out to be what Sakurai was implying, we wouldn't have had this giant pinata party with Smash 4. Really if you want to blame someone though, blame Nintendo. [/2c]

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Good to see you bringing up concerns in the form of discussion Attila.

I play the characters I like, and I want to be able to do that. In Melee I've played Roy or random in multiple tournaments and won or placed. In Brawl I quickly fell out of contention with Ike due to the nature of his character within the games limitations - limitations that the most viable characters are all but immune to (eg. you can't trip in the air or spamming projectiles).

We have Melee 2.0 in Project M. I want a new Smash with new techniques and skills to learn. More than anything though, I want another game where I can pick the character I like and (given enough work at it) be able to pose a challenge to anyone. Brawl could have been that with the right fine tuning on Sakurai's part (I now know Attila that you agree with this). My concern is that he's making the same mistake he made again even though we're all screaming the answers to him.

Let me decide how and why I use my moves. Give me a corner and I'll try bringing a knife to a gunfight, but me on an open field and i'll take the sniper rifle 10 time out of 10.

 

[Splice]

Hopefully all the numerous newcomers provide people interesting ways to play that can hold your attention for at least a year Shaz (and others).
Also there could be no dash dancing with the removal of initial dash frames but watching some vids of Americans at Best Buys today, you can just turn around in the dash which is actually pretty fast on some characters and definitely gives you less control than Melee but you could totally rely on this given there is no tripping and it is really fast on like Fox/Greninja/Sheik.

Greninja is like P:M Mewtwo with Sheiks aerials/tilts (and Mewtwos Nair, praying for good priority)

You might not be getting your open field like in Melee, but at least you should get some pretty interesting knives with crazy properties for your gunfight in the corner.