Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Jaguar360]

Hey guys I have Lucario secondary (main in customs) and I'm wondering if he loses to Greninja, or if he beats him. It would also help to know if he's higher or lower than Lucario on the tier list.

Lucario vs Greninja is pretty even. Greninja's mobility allows him to avoid a lot of Lucario's stuff and he can wall Lucario out with Shurikens, but despite having some good kill setups, he can sometimes struggle to take Lucario's stocks which allows Luc to build up Aura and kill him easily. I think Greninja might have a slight edge though.

Lucario and Greninja's position on the tier list is interchangeable atm. Both of them around 15th-22nd or so on the tier list with characters like Toon Link, Pit, Ike and Corrin probably.

 

[RosalinA]

Lucario vs Greninja is pretty even. Greninja's mobility allows him to avoid a lot of Lucario's stuff and he can wall Lucario out with Shurikens, but despite having some good kill setups, he can sometimes struggle to take Lucario's stocks which allows Luc to build up Aura and kill him easily. I think Greninja might have a slight edge though.

Lucario and Greninja's position on the tier list is interchangeable atm. Both of them around 15th-22nd or so on the tier list with characters like Toon Link, Pit, Ike and Corrin probably.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Mocha]

So as I'm sure you guys know by now, there was a patch update today. Shall we discuss Greninja's changes?
Patch notes link: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-5-patch-notes.433162/

• Standing Grab Startup: 14F -> 11F
• Bonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved)

Does this mean we can't ledge bump SD as easily? I just tested it and he can still ledge bump SD, but it 'seems' like he bops a little higher? Also, yay standing grab lol

You guys notice any other changes?

 

[Y2Kay]

Wassup my ninjas ◥ θ┴θ◤

I got some great news for you

Sheik was nerfed

Yeah you heard right.

Sheik was nerfed

No, this isn't a dream

SHEIK WAS NERFED!

 

[Gunla]

So as I'm sure you guys know by now, there was a patch update today. Shall we discuss Greninja's changes?
Patch notes link: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-5-patch-notes.433162/

• Standing Grab Startup: 14F -> 11F
• Bonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved)

Does this mean we can't ledge bump SD as easily? I just tested it and he can still ledge bump SD, but it 'seems' like he bops a little higher? Also, yay standing grab lol

You guys notice any other changes?

Bonk angle was changed, it goes towards the ledge instead of away now. We can still SD but it's a lot harder to do so.

 

[BlitzTrain]

Aw, I was hoping that meant the angle needed to bonk off the stage was more forgiving somehow. But I can live with better chance of bonks still snapping me to the ledge!

Nooooot gonna complain about Shiek nerfs. No clue what it could mean for Greninja's Tier ratings, but if it helps there be more than three (from what I can remember) "Top Tier"/"Viable" characters, I'll be happy.

 

[Gunla]

Dash attack's startup was also altered, 9 -> 7 frames.

Overall a good patch for us!

 

[Onyxsbayne]

I'm liking the standing grab buff, bet that'll come in handy now, but not really noticing the dash attack at all. The head bonk is a god send thank you. The only thing I can really hope for now is a faster fair if we get any more patches.

 

[FullMoon]

F-Air and B-Air landing lag decreases boyz

We have been blessed this night.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

I didn't see anything, source?

 

[KERO]

Just wanted to drop in and say that today is a good day for us. Sheik gets nerfed (needle range is now shuriken range, and it seems harder for us to get caught by repeated Fairs), our Fair gets made even safer for no reason (SHFFing it consecutively looks super scary now), and I just figured out that fast fall Bair into Utilt now combos at around 115% on some characters. Honestly, I had really hoped that if standing grab received a buff, it'd come out on frame 10 in order to equal jab OoS, but I'm pretty satisfied overall. Come to think of it, since most spotdodges come out on frame 2 or later, it will almost be on par with our jab, really only suffering in comparison against characters with frame 1 or 2 jabs, but being better than jab against characters that lack those and have a frame 3 spotdodge (hello, Corrin). Also, frame 6 dash attack seems interesting; pretty nice having an option that fast out of dash; we'll be able to punish a few more things than we used to be able to with it, and it often leads into Fair, which is nice. Overall, pretty satisfied with this patch. Also happy I decided to hold off on updating any kill percents until I get back in August since the team since to be getting a bit less conservative with character traits. Definitely believe that Greninja is gonna be rising a bit after this, and I trust you guys are gonna find plenty of new things to do with the reduced end lag on those aerials.

Still waiting for our blindspot fixes, though =x Fixed our HP bouncing and grab having that weird delay, but they still got a long way to go in order to fix some of the more... questionable aspects of the frog.

 

[bc1910]

To paraphrase what I said in the CCI thread, we haven't received anything gamechanging. Greninja has never really risen in usage and nothing here is as significant as the Shuriken rebuff so don't expect him to rise, either in usage or on the tier list - let it be a pleasant surprise if it happens. To experience a proper usage spike Greninja would need a top tier buff - perhaps better throws or the restoration of Usmash/Hydro Pump.

DA buff gives it a FAF of 30 making it the fastest overall DA in the game. Having another grounded option with sub-7 frame startup is nice as well. Would have preferred an endlag reduction to be honest since DA > Fair is easily airdodged but I'll take what I can get. I do like this buff since DA's unnecessarily long startup has always irked me - it had no reason to be 8f startup.

Grab is still a slower OoS than jab which frankly I find pathetic. Grab would need another 3 frames off the startup to be significantly better. Being faster than point blank tethers is nice, I guess.

Headbonk thing lets you ram into walled stages and recover easily which is hilarious.

LL buffs are potentially big but I won't say any more until I actually play the patch.

The biggest buff comes indirectly with Sheik nerfs. On paper needles will still be a pain but Sheik will really struggle to close our stock. With Bair being safer and her Fair getting a range nerf, we may be able to contest her Fair spam with Bair since it should now outrange it.

I think these are QoL changes, little more than a pat on the back for those of us who stuck with Greninja. Fair and Bair's LL buffs are solid though - I really wanted to see a LL buff for Fair and was starting to wonder if Greninja would ever get LL buffs, considering so many others have.

 

[Ninja101]

Up air and Down air buff by 1 frame

 

[Lone V]

The bonk angle correction is going to save so many stocks.
Also, yay SHFFFair for days.

 

[ReroRero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fjg2Ar9FBc

CHRISTMAS IS 9 MONTHS EARLY GUYS

 

[DrizzyDrew]

Our boy got BUFFED. Fair/bair showcase

https://twitter.com/NiKeRuV2/status/710051909395156992?lang=en

 

[Jalil]

I don't know whether it's a true combo or not but before the patch I was able to get fair->grab at mid percents pretty often. Should be more consistent now and maybe even true combo if it didn't already.
Also footstool->bair lock is even better and bairs reduced landing lag gives us more time to prep+ kill earlier

 

[Ludiloco]

I don't know whether it's a true combo or not, but before the patch I was able to get fair->grab at mid percents pretty often. Should be more consistent now and maybe even true combo if it didn't already.
Also footstool->bair lock is even better and bairs reduced landing lag gives us more time to prep+ kill earlier

Yep! Fair -> Grab at low % was already a really good follow up, but now it's even more applicable. I'm not sure it's a true combo especially on fast fallers, but a lot of people will shield after they hit the ground from the fair so it's pretty safe to go for. This actually makes dash attack a lot more consistent as a follow up too so we can get Fair -> DA -> Fair for big damage.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Shoot greninja got some sweet buffs.

Also with the nerfing of Sheik, how does this affect the ¨Frog Sheik vs. Sheik¨ MU?

 

[Ludiloco]

Shoot greninja got some sweet buffs.

Also with the nerfing of Sheik, how does this affect the ¨Frog Sheik vs. Sheik¨ MU?

A fair amount. I don't think shield grabbing sheik will be very effective on much of anything minus her whiffing something really bad like f smash. But her fair getting nerfed and her losing the d throw 50/50 means she has less threatening tools vs us. We also outrange needles with shuriken now, which I think is the most important thing. She can't just camp us out and we actually can force her to approach.

I dunno if it'll tip it toooooo much in our favor? But I'd say it may tilt the matchup back to 55:45 Sheik. She can still combo the crap out of us and edge guard us pretty well, but now she has to get in to do it. She also has an f throw 50/50 with bouncing fish now, which actually is better for us because it will kill off the sides on the ledge instead of off the top all over the stage. Fair's nerf may prove to be really helpful too, I'm not sure if it's as safe as it was now that the range is smaller.

 

[Lavani]

Ribbit.

I haven't updated yet, but I bet the combination of decreased fair landing lag and decreased dash attack startup makes fair>dash attack>fair a 35% combo at lowish percents.

All in all I like this patch a lot.

 

[Ludiloco]

Bair -> DA -> Fair also works!

 

[ROBnWatch]

I haven't been able to play the newest patch (due to being quite busy), but for the last few patches I've been able to do a F-throw, dash attack, Fair. Does that still work after this patch?

 

[bc1910]

Fair can combo into itself. I love this patch.

Bair and Fair are hilariously safe.

Grab is still ass but is actually usable. You can grab a shielding opponent without them spotdodging on reaction.

Sheik MU is significantly better. Whilst we don't win, it's nowhere near unwinnable. I've played it from both sides and I honestly don't know how she's supposed to kill us. Meanwhile her weight nerf makes rage-less Uthrow kill her at 145% fresh. Shurikens contest needles really well and our aerials outrange her Fair.

 

[31IV]

I'm wondering if DA -> PP Uptilt is a thing at low %. Haven't labbed it yet.
Overall, pretty gud patch. I like the new Fair.

 

[KERO]

Maaaan, SHFF Fairs feel so smooth now, and perfect pivot standing grab is actually worth something. Why'd they have to make Greninja so much more fun to play right before Pokken comes out? Was gonna take a break from Smash for that game, but now, I'm not sure if I want to. Not to mention that Mewtwo was also made better....

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'm honestly enjoying the Fair change more than the shuriken change in 1.1.0. Move with only 15 frames of landing lag, doing 14%, and with that kind of range is utterly ridiculous. Even trying to roll around it to punish it seems super difficult, and Greninja is no stranger to being able to escape corners if he's backed into one; also, as mentioned, Fair can lead into a few more things now, meaning at low-mid percents, the reward for hitting one is pretty high.

 

[Y2Kay]

Maaaan, SHFF Fairs feel so smooth now, and perfect pivot standing grab is actually worth something. Why'd they have to make Greninja so much more fun to play right before Pokken comes out? Was gonna take a break from Smash for that game, but now, I'm not sure if I want to. Not to mention that Mewtwo was also made better....

this litterally goes exactly the same way for me too lol

 

[bc1910]

A Fair-spamming Greninja is about as hard to approach as a Nair-spamming ZSS. But Greninja also has shurikens to force the approach more consistently.

You really don't want to lose the lead against Greninja now.

 

[FullMoon]

How much safer exactly is B-Air on shield now?

 

[Guimartgon]

Did up B always pop villager's balloons and put him in free fall?

 

[Aqua 水]

Did up B always pop villager's balloons and put him in free fall?

I personally haven't been able to hit them and not Villager, but from what I've heard, yes it has always been able to do that.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Anyone found some comboes?

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

As a whole, how much would you say Greninja has risen as compared to the rest of the cast?

The fair buff gives Greninja a solid lead punch of sorts. It works well with Greninja defensive play while still having enough power to kill at a reasonable percent.

 

[Piipp]

As a whole, how much would you say Greninja has risen as compared to the rest of the cast?

The fair buff gives Greninja a solid lead punch of sorts. It works well with Greninja defensive play while still having enough power to kill at a reasonable percent.

I say Greninja has risen pretty significantly. Nobody has been given as much love as greninja has in this patch. Not only did our terrible grab actually get buffed, but the LL on two of our greatest aerials was decreased, making it 10x more safe on shield and in general. Overall I feel like Greninjas potential has skyrocketed and that he could be a potential threat in high level play.

 

[Y2Kay]

If Sheik doesn't gatekeep us anymore, the sky is pretty much the limit

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

I saw a post of r/smashbros saying Greninja's grab range was buffed? Is this true and if so, is it for standing, pivot, and dash grabs?

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm pretty sure it's just the start up that's decreased

 

[Piipp]

I feel like the only character that Greninja does really bad against is Rosaluma. Not too bad against sheik but he still doesnt win it. I'd say 55/45 Sheik but for Rosa I'd say 65/35

 

[Y2Kay]

Rosalina is even man. It's definitely one of his hardest one, but I dread Fox and Sonic more

 

[KERO]

Honestly, Greninja maaaaay gain a slight advantage against Rosalina with our Fair being more flexible. I could see it being a factor in pushing us slightly over the edge in a few of our other even MUs, too. Can't wait to really be able to explore things after I get back (FG and tourneys are pretty okay, but not a lot of Smashfests that I've found over here, and being able to play against someone consistently is important for exploring this stuff). On the other hand, I did find that full charged shuriken to Fair to dash attack to Fair at low percents can work on some fast fallers/heavy weights, which is nice. Might've been a combo before, Idk, but if it was, we have a ton more leniency on it now.

Edit: Also forgot to mention Bair being safer will probably end up being a nice boon against Rosalina, too, since it's one of the moves we have that always knocks Luma away. As much love as I give our new Fair, I should probably look into Bair, too. Guess that'll be the thing I use to pull myself out of Pokken haha.