Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[ROBnWatch]

I can speak Spanish, but I just don't want to. Welcome to the Greninja boards, Igneo.

 

[Igneo]

It is normal.
It is the main language in the forum
Thank you

 

[Jonarobin]

So how are our Matchups against Corrin and Bayonetta? I haven't played the matchups too much and haven't bought the characters/caught up on recent Greninja discussion.

Any tips? I have played some Bayonetta on for glory and she's just annoying... I've been sdi ing down on side-b to get out of that one air combo but... I have been hit from that too when the bayonetta just drops down and I think baired me.

 

[Calvonta]

Okay, out of mild annoyance I would like to bring up a possible bug. When Greninja does his Footstool>Dair>Footstool>first (or second) hit of bair to force the getup; on some characters for some reason the second footstool is refreshed so its the same jump hight as first. Has anyone talked about this? Is this supposed to be like that? It annoys me that it's only for this character. So I doubt Nintendo will fix it.


Edit:

If you're unaware of what im talking about try it on mario.



if you're not aware of the combo i'm talking about then smh

 

[Jalil]

Okay, out of mild annoyance I would like to bring up a possible bug. When Greninja does his Footstool>Dair>Footstool>first (or second) hit of bair to force the getup; on some characters for some reason the second footstool is refreshed so its the same jump hight as first. Has anyone talked about this? Is this supposed to be like that? It annoys me that it's only for this character. So I doubt Nintendo will fix it.


Edit:

If you're unaware of what im talking about try it on mario.



if you're not aware of the combo i'm talking about then smh

Yeah I just tested it and it does refresh. I tried it in slo mo just to make sure I'm doing the input for a small footstool fast enough but it's still the same height. Really weird bug but I doubt something like this will get fixed

 

[Calvonta]

Yeah I just tested it and it does refresh. I tried it in slo mo just to make sure I'm doing the input for a small footstool fast enough but it's still the same height. Really weird bug but I doubt something like this will get fixed

There's gotta be a way to let Nintendo know.

This bug isn't only on Mario BTW.

 

[Igneo]

So how are our Matchups against Corrin and Bayonetta? I haven't played the matchups too much and haven't bought the characters/caught up on recent Greninja discussion.

Any tips? I have played some Bayonetta on for glory and she's just annoying... I've been sdi ing down on side-b to get out of that one air combo but... I have been hit from that too when the bayonetta just drops down and I think baired me.

-----------------------------------------

I have played a lot against bayonetta.
using missiles and then attacks.
the missile forces her to protect herself.
you do not give time to use your Witch Time
Spanish:
Aprovechare que en español estoy mas cómodo.
Usar el shuriken apropósito para que bayo se proteja, aprovecho para ir a hacer agarre o atacar.
ya que después tiene que quitarse su escudo para poder moverse y atacar.
no le doy tiempo para que ataque y use su contra y al mismo tiempo me creo una oportunidad para ganar.

Como dato curioso, si estas alado de bayanetta y esta usa tiempo brujo pero tu primero hiciste Upsmash, las espadas al bajar pueden pegarle a bayonetta si esta se pone a cargar su smash.

 

[Guimartgon]

I went to a pseudo major(only 96 registered participants - some DQs) an hour away from me (I literally drove all the way to CSU lol) I ended up getting 13th(made it out of pools to then lose R1 of top 16 essentially). Anyways on my last round of pools I had to beat the best sheik in the area for the spot out of pools (who also happened to be the very first person I lost to in a major tournament). Anyways I won 2-0.
Needles are punishable now! if you can read them you can easily jump across and nair sheik in the face. Also we really don't care about being grabbed as much as other characters since our air mobility and double jump height allows us to have a lot of time to decide our landing and prevent it from being covered by sheik. The new weight may have mattered, I took a stock on the second game at like 80% with dtilt to sweetspot Usmash on dreamland with rage.
We still lose to Fair in the neutral but now our shurikens can pressure sheik to approach which is great. You can also try to outspace the sheik player with a pivot Fsmash to punish the fair while it's active and landing.

http://challonge.com/BB5WUS/groups (my tag is Plastic_Mac)

 

[Igneo]

As we all they have more experience than me.
What are my mistakes?
Clashes:
Sheik: 0:00
Link: 4:37
Falco: 7:30
Mr Game and Watch: 11:30
Diddy Kong: 15:04
Capitán Falcon: 17:47
Toon Link: 21:48
It would be nice to play against you.
So I learn a lot and it would be fun.
Learn toblows (??)

 

[Marilink]

Hey friends! Haven't been here in a while but I wanted to let you all know that I've been repping the Frog pretty well in Wisconsin. took 2nd at a local, and I also ended up at #10 on the State PR. If I'm actually able to show up to tournaments this season, I have a definite shot at getting higher. Nice to see the Pond is still full.

 

[Jaguar360]

As we all they have more experience than me.
What are my mistakes?
Clashes:
Sheik: 0:00
Link: 4:37
Falco: 7:30
Mr Game and Watch: 11:30
Diddy Kong: 15:04
Capitán Falcon: 17:47
Toon Link: 21:48
It would be nice to play against you.
So I learn a lot and it would be fun.
Learn toblows (??)

Only got to watch the Sheik match, but from what I've gathered:

• Try to be a bit more erratic with your movement. I noticed that you would stand and wait a lot then charge Water Shuriken in neutral. Greninja excels with his mobility and trickiness, so mixing this up with some walking, running and jumping around should make your approach less predictable.
• Practice using short hop fast falled (SHFF) aerials in Training mode. SHFF N-air and F-air are some of Greninja's best options to approach an opponent and he can also combo off of them (especially N-air).
  
• Tone down your use of d-air and Shadow Sneak. They are unsafe and easily punished in most cases.
  
• I noticed that you were mostly getting damage off of single hits. I'd suggest practicing some of Greninja's combos to rack up damage easier and get more ways to kill. Check this thread (the ones in the 1.04 spoiler tag). The most important combos for you to learn first are probably the d-tilt combos, dash attack -> f-air, the n-air combos and the u-throw combos.

Also try watching a couple of the matches in the Greninja section here to get a feel of how the best Greninjas play. We also have a video thread in the Greninja subforums where you can post matches you want critiqued or watch more Greninja videos. I hope that I helped. Be sure to take things one step at a time so that you don't get overwhelmed.

 

[Igneo]

Only got to watch the Sheik match, but from what I've gathered:

• Try to be a bit more erratic with your movement. I noticed that you would stand and wait a lot then charge Water Shuriken in neutral. Greninja excels with his mobility and trickiness, so mixing this up with some walking, running and jumping around should make your approach less predictable.
• Practice using short hop fast falled (SHFF) aerials in Training mode. SHFF N-air and F-air are some of Greninja's best options to approach an opponent and he can also combo off of them (especially N-air).
  
• Tone down your use of d-air and Shadow Sneak. They are unsafe and easily punished in most cases.
  
• I noticed that you were mostly getting damage off of single hits. I'd suggest practicing some of Greninja's combos to rack up damage easier and get more ways to kill. Check this thread (the ones in the 1.04 spoiler tag). The most important combos for you to learn first are probably the d-tilt combos, dash attack -> f-air, the n-air combos and the u-throw combos.

Also try watching a couple of the matches in the Greninja section here to get a feel of how the best Greninjas play. We also have a video thread in the Greninja subforums where you can post matches you want critiqued or watch more Greninja videos. I hope that I helped. Be sure to take things one step at a time so that you don't get overwhelmed.

Clear!
Especially try to practice jumps and air attacks.
as indeed I am more on the ground, I can hardly fight in the air.
I forgot to put it is not necessary to see everyone. D:
Thank you for your help.
I'll check everything you told me!

 

[KERO]

Heeey, so... out of nowhere, I randomly had a ton of inspiration to look into what options our new grab gives us... even though I said I was done with research for a while. Well, anyway, I'm sure most of you guys figured this stuff out anyway, but it does have a number of advantages over our jab OoS both in terms of frame data vs some characters as well as in terms of range and options it gives us. I went ahead and made a video detailing most of what I'm talking about (warning: it is very text-heavy). I'm not in any way saying our grab is one of the best nor does it really help our poor OoS game, but the buff is more substantial than quite a few of us may have thought at first.

Description includes a number of characters where our grab benefits over our jab as a punishing tool frame-data wise. Notable characters include Bayonetta, Cloud, Falcon, Corrin, Ness, Rosalina (no Luma), Villager, Yoshi, Diddy Kong, Sonic, and Toon Link (last three get frame trapped by grab if they opt for a spot dodge after an attack that is safe on shield and lack attacks that come out quickly enough to hit us out of the grab if they opt for an attack instead). I do think that if Greninja had any kind of passable OoS option that our standing grab would be given a lot less ire now, but no matter how good it is outside of being a quick option, it's still a harsh reminder of how bad our shield game is. Still, worth looking into what we can do with this. Notably, it is much safer than dash grab, even if it does come out a couple frames slower.

If I got anything wrong in terms of frame data (I've made mistakes regarding data in the past), please let me know, and I'll edit the video (or take it down if necessary). Also, I do plan on making a list of moves that grab can punish that jab cannot in the future at some point.

Also, from the video description, here's the data regarding what characters it's better to punish with grab and the characters it's better to punish with jab:

Character data

Here are all the characters where grab punishes attacks on shield better than grab, along with their fastest options (that aren't shield):

Bayonetta (frame 4 Witch Twist and frame 5 spot dodge)
Bowser (frame 4 spot dodge)
Bowser Jr. (frame 3 spot dodge)
Captain Falcon (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Charizard (frame 3 spot dodge)
Cloud (frame 3 spot dodge)
Corrin (frame 3 spot dodge)
Donkey Kong (frame 4 spot dodge)
Ganondorf (frame 4 spot dodge)
Ike (frame 3 spot dodge)
Jigglypuff (unless it uses Rest, frame 4 spot dodge)
King Dedede (frame 4 spot dodge)
Kirby (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Link (frame 3 spot dodge)
Lucina (frame 3 spot dodge)
Marth (frame 3 spot dodge)
Mega Man (frame 3 spot dodge; jab may work better against Nair into jab)
Mii Swordfighter (frame 3 spot dodge)
Mii Gunner (frame 3 Echo Reflector and spot dodge)
Ness (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Olimar (frame 3 spot dodge)
Pac-Man (frame 3 spot dodge, unless he uses Pac-Jump)
R.O.B. (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Robin (frame 3 spot dodge)
Rosalina without Luma (frame 3 spot dodge)
Roy (frame 3 spot dodge)
Samus (frame 3 jab, intangibility on Screw Attack, and spot dodge)
Shulk (frame 3 spot dodge)
Villager (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Wario (frame 3 spot dodge)
Yoshi (frame 3 jab and spot dodge)
Zelda (frame 3 spot dodge)

Essentially, grab punishes some moves on shield that jab cannot due to shield coming out two frames earlier than any of their other options (with Greninja's jab only coming out one frame earlier than his grab out of shield now).

Grab forces the following characters into a situation where we can punish them , but we do not actually get the grab (assuming they are able to dodge the grab after hitting our shield):

Dark Pit (frame 2 spot dodge)
Diddy Kong (frame 2 spot dodge)
Duck Hunt (frame 2 spot dodge)
Greninja (frame 2 spot dodge)
Lucario (frame 2 spot dodge)
Meta Knight (frame 2 spot dodge)
Mewtwo (frame 2 spot dodge)
Mr. Game&Watch (frame 2 spot dodge)
Pit (frame 2 spot dodge)
Sonic (frame 2 spot dodge)
Toon Link (frame 2 spot dodge)
Wii Fit Trainer (frame 2 spot dodge)

Even if these characters were to use a move that is technically unpunishable for Greninja, such as Diddy's Nair, they are still unable to interrupt our grab during its start-up since they lack an attack that comes out on frame 2, and as grab goes through shields, they are forced to spot dodge, but as demonstrated, we CAN punish that spot dodge with a jab. We won't get the grab, but our grab will allow us to punish some attacks on shield that our jab normally cannot.

With the following characters, neither jab nor grab has a frame advantage:

Dr. Mario (frame 2 jab)
Falco (frame 2 jab and spot dodge)
Fox (frame 2 jab and spot dodge)
Lucas (frame 2 jab)
Luigi (frame 2 jab)
Mario (frame 2 jab)
Mii Brawler (frame 2 jab)
Peach (frame 2 jab)
Pikachu (frame 2 jab and spot dodge)
Rosalina and Luma (no moves or dodges that come out earlier than frame 3, but Rosalina can input a move that Luma will still be using even if she gets grabbed, knocking you out of the grab)
Sheik (frame 2 jab and spot dodge)

In these cases, if a move can be punished by jab, it can also be punished by grab as a jab or spot dodge from these characters will always come out one frame later than a shield. Our new grab does give us an interesting work-around of sorts against these characters however; if a move, is unpunishable by one frame on shield by normal means for Greninja, such as Peach's Nair, we still have a 50/50 chance of punishing them. For instance, if Peach shields on the first possible frame, our jab will get blocked but, obviously, our grab will not. On the other hand, if the opponent opts for a jab on the first possible frame, because it comes out one frame later than the shield, our jab will connect.

Lastly, the following characters, jab does have an advantage over grab in certain situations:

Jigglypuff (frame 2 Rest [frame 1 intangibility])
Little Mac (frame 1 jab, frame 2 spot dodge, Rising Uppercut has intangibility from frames 1-3 and comes out frame 3)
Pac-Man (frame 1 Pac-Jump)
Ryu (frame 1 intangibility on true shoryu, frame 2 light jab and light Dtilt)
Zero Suit Samus (frame 1 jab and frame 2 spot dodge)

If jab comes out one frame before the opponent can do anything after hitting Greninja's shield, jab should be used as a punish in these five characters' cases; if you go for a grab instead (which is one frame slower), these five can hit you out of it (it is riskier for Jigglypuff, Ryu, and potentially Pac-Man to try to do so, however, especially as Ryu can simply rely on light jab or Dtilt instead in most scenarios given his fantastic frame data and is never likely to be in the described situation).

For those that have a hard time discerning the difference in grabs, if you look up the frame data, you can see that Greninja's is clearly faster overall than any other grab with similar range.

 

[Y2Kay]

what the heck happened to us?

 

[ROBnWatch]

what the heck happened to us?

We've been Emblemed.

We've been April Fooled. It happens every year and there's no way you can do anything about it. If I remember correctly, it'll only be this way for today.

I'm also upset I didn't get Corrin.

 

[Y2Kay]

I can't believe I forgot today was april fools

 

[ROBnWatch]

I can't believe I forgot today was april fools

Actually, it's also Opposites Day. So no, there's not much stuff you can do when April Fools and Opposites Day aren't on the same day.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

I'm not a Number Hunter anymore, I've been Emblemed to some Kawaii elf girl.

Haven't done much new with the frog since the patch, but I really like the bonk change and grab buff. I wish his Fair was faster, but I don't think that'll happen, since his landing lag is better now. I have seen how well that works now, but I haven't done well with Bair combos at all.

 

[Steve.Stone]

Oh snap I think you're Nowi!
Who am I?

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh snap I think you're Nowi!
Who am I?

Saizo, a ninja from FE Fates

 

[Igneo]

woman? what?
I have a theory, you can do a combo with: ( + B)
Not as they say in English.
In the air, if you stick to: ( + B) In the direction ↑ + Jump + Up Air
Playing with my brother almost succeeded.
but we were so high that neither we met, not as people succeeds blows well.
It would like a slightly more complicated version of combos: Bayonetta, Sheik, Metanight.
I try to practice to see if it is possible
or maybe, just this drugged

 

[ROBnWatch]

I think it's obvious who I am...

But just to make sure who am I?

 

[Guimartgon]

woman? what?
I have a theory, you can do a combo with: ( + B)
Not as they say in English.
In the air, if you stick to: ( + B) In the direction ↑ + Jump + Up Air
Playing with my brother almost succeeded.
but we were so high that neither we met, not as people succeeds blows well.
It would like a slightly more complicated version of combos: Bayonetta, Sheik, Metanight.
I try to practice to see if it is possible
or maybe, just this drugged

I'm pretty sure counter into Uair was always a thing, it's just super unreliable cause both greninja's counter isn't easy to get and the combo itself is really hard to get

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait, is Venia dropping smash 4 competitively?

Pound already left a bittersweet taste in my mouth, and now this.....

 

[Guimartgon]

Wait, is Venia dropping smash 4 competitively?

Pound already left a bittersweet taste in my mouth, and now this.....

What? Is he actually quitting?

 

[Y2Kay]

What? Is he actually quitting?

I couldn't see the whole tower but he said something about how he apologizes to all the people who wanted to see him go far in tournaments.

 

[FullMoon]

Can't believe I forgot to mention this in the Greninja boards of all places but Saturday I got 2nd in a 71 people tournament going solo Greninja. Lost badly to a Sonic player but he was the only one to beat me and I went through most of the tournament without losing a single game.

 

[Y2Kay]

"I'm a decent greninja player"

-FullMoon, 2016

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm really sorry to everyone who wanted to see me go far but I have to end my career alittle earlier than I wanted to I'm sorry

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) April 3, 2016

 

[Guimartgon]

I'm really sorry to everyone who wanted to see me go far but I have to end my career alittle earlier than I wanted to I'm sorry

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) April 3, 2016

Well that sucks :/

 

[ROBnWatch]

I'm really sorry to everyone who wanted to see me go far but I have to end my career alittle earlier than I wanted to I'm sorry

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) April 3, 2016

 

[FullMoon]

"I'm a decent greninja player"

-FullMoon, 2016

I am indeed quite a decent player, I just happen to be part of a fairly weak Smash scene =V

 

[Y2Kay]

I am indeed quite a decent player, I just happen to be part of a fairly weak Smash scene =V

If you say so man! :^)

 

[Alaslayon]

I have a question, F-Air and B-Air LL got reduced but both of them have autocancel-windows at the beginning. So combos like SHFF - Bair to Uptilt to Upair (saw this on Some´s Twitterpage) must have been already true before the patch or am I completely wrong?

 

[Jaguar360]

I have a question, F-Air and B-Air LL got reduced but both of them have autocancel-windows at the beginning. So combos like SHFF - Bair to Uptilt to Upair (saw this on Some´s Twitterpage) must have been already true before the patch or am I completely wrong?

The autocancel windows on those moves aren't when the hitbox is active, so the autocancels are pretty irrelevant when it comes to combos. The autocancel window for f-air for instance is frames 1-12 and frames 40-65, when the hitbox is only active on frames 16 and 17. The landing lag buffs on those moves do make a difference with safety on shield and also combos like F-air -> F-air, F-air -> Dash Attack -> F-air, SHFF B-air -> F-smash etc.

 

[Alaslayon]

The autocancel windows on those moves aren't when the hitbox is active, so the autocancels are pretty irrelevant when it comes to combos. The autocancel window for f-air for instance is frames 1-12 and frames 40-65, when the hitbox is only active on frames 16 and 17. The landing lag buffs on those moves do make a difference with safety on shield and also combos like F-air -> F-air, F-air -> Dash Attack -> F-air, SHFF B-air -> F-smash etc.

I´ve never realized that, thank you very much

 

[ROBnWatch]

Hey everyone, bit of a late notice but I'm hosting a tournament tomorrow from 2:00-3:30 pm EST time. I'll post the password around 30 minutes before it starts. Here's the info. and rules.

Tourney Name: RnW's Tourney #2
Up to 100 participants. So enter the password quickly!!!
The winner will be the participant with the most POINTS, not most wins.
Time limit per match: 10 minutes.
3 Stocks each match.
You get to select a preferred stage.
The Smash Ball is the only item on, and is on the "high" likelihood of appearing.
Mii Fighters are allowed.
Custom Fighters are NOT allowed.

Good luck to everyone!!!

 

[ROBnWatch]

Sorry guys, slight time change! It will now be from 7:00-8:30pm EST time.

 

[ROBnWatch]

So the tournament is up but won't start till 7. If you guys want in, the Tourney ID is 62277070272286. Password is Overdrive.

 

[Hashoraq]

Who's that pkmn..? It's Mewt..Greninja! XD