Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Igneo]

Hi guys, I just made my first Greninja smash youtube video. Please take a look and like/sub if you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8RAGV9Y4s

#Feedback #ThankYou

I can that learned a new way, thanks to video :D
I explore the character.

 

[Ludiloco]

Hi guys, I just made my first Greninja smash youtube video. Please take a look and like/sub if you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8RAGV9Y4s

#Feedback #ThankYou

You flat out copied my video, just changed the color filter and the intro. I'm reporting it for takedown. I suggest you take it down.

Here is my video for proof. Check the upload date.

 

[ROBnWatch]

You flat out copied my video, just changed the color filter and the intro. I'm reporting it for takedown. I suggest you take it down.

Here is my video for proof. Check the upload date.

*Tries to compare videos to see if Ludi is telling the truth*

*First video already taken down*

Well, guess that proves that.

 

[Guimartgon]

Hi guys, I just uploaded my first game vs some Pikachu I fought at a tournament. Please take a look and like/sub if you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vAN9h6yvtA

#Feedback #ThankYou

 

[DrizzyDrew]

HOLY JEBUS, Amsa with the Greninja tech!

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8oetOaaRs

 

[Ludiloco]

Hey guys. I just finished up the text portion of a Greninja guide I want to release before the end of the month. I'm going to add video examples before I release it here.

However, I need some help. It's 14 pages long and needs to be proofread before I release it. If any of you guys would be willing to read just a page or two and proofread for incorrect information or typos, I would be eternally grateful. I'll attach it to the post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAArEzEcEaFJ0xMHb3B5SMTR2IBiqTJCnzx0AYJT5e0/edit?usp=sharing

 

[free33]

Hey guys. I just finished up the text portion of a Greninja guide I want to release before the end of the month. I'm going to add video examples before I release it here.

However, I need some help. It's 14 pages long and needs to be proofread before I release it. If any of you guys would be willing to read just a page or two and proofread for incorrect information or typos, I would be eternally grateful. I'll attach it to the post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAArEzEcEaFJ0xMHb3B5SMTR2IBiqTJCnzx0AYJT5e0/edit?usp=sharing

hey I got you. I'll read as much as I can I'm gonna start this weekend tho cuz i'm reading a giant book this week.

 

[Ludiloco]

Got 5th at my first CO tourney I wasn't also trying to run. I actually played really well for the first time since moving here, felt like I turned some heads by beating some solid players. Also finally made some cash. Felt good!

 

[Megamang]

Very cool. You think there will be VODs uploaded?

 

[Ludiloco]

Nope, no stream. The weeklies don't tend to have one I don't think.

 

[Guimartgon]

Nope, no stream. The weeklies don't tend to have one I don't think.

FGF used to have a stream but we depend on a person who's been busy with work and personal stuff as of late, hopefully we will get to streaming again when he is back.

 

[Megamang]

Is this general discussion for metagame discussion? I didn't see a metagame thread that was too active.


I wanted to ask... how do you guys confirm damage out of grabs, vs someone who knows the MU? At low percentages I tend to uthrow uair (when I think it'll combo) which is alright damage, and sometimes leads to another uair or some fair/bair stuff... But after this range, before kill throw range, I often encounter a problem. Against someone who responds to dtilt and dthrow with like, jumping away + airdodging, I can't really get a solid punish, even if I know its coming. Shadow sneak is a good mixup, but doesn't keep up with the fastest characters.

Is this just a universal problem of trying to corner characters with really good mobility? Because I do well vs less mobile characters by a lot, but like ZSS, Shiek, Mario... are really hard.

 

[Y2Kay]

I usually go for down throw at really low percents. up throw should only be used around that 20% percent mark. fast fallers can be hit with down throw jab around 10%.

 

[Megamang]

Down throw into just rapid jabs, or jab into something? Jab 2 has a great FAF for a jab 2, and jab 1 is pretty damn good too, comparatively, so I like to use those but jab mixups don't feel guaranteed. Of course, jumping away from a mixup isn't a great situation to be in anyways, so its going well if you hit those... but I feel like I could do more. I like dtilt regrab, but that doesn't always work.

 

[bc1910]

Is this general discussion for metagame discussion? I didn't see a metagame thread that was too active.


I wanted to ask... how do you guys confirm damage out of grabs, vs someone who knows the MU? At low percentages I tend to uthrow uair (when I think it'll combo) which is alright damage, and sometimes leads to another uair or some fair/bair stuff... But after this range, before kill throw range, I often encounter a problem. Against someone who responds to dtilt and dthrow with like, jumping away + airdodging, I can't really get a solid punish, even if I know its coming. Shadow sneak is a good mixup, but doesn't keep up with the fastest characters.

Is this just a universal problem of trying to corner characters with really good mobility? Because I do well vs less mobile characters by a lot, but like ZSS, Shiek, Mario... are really hard.

Uthrow Uair true combos for a decent amount of time, from around 20-60% on most characters. After this, it's a 50/50. It still true combos people who try to jump or attack out, airdodging is the only option and that can be beaten by Uair spike, Dair or Shadow Sneak. It's just a case of being confident in your offensive option and reacting to/reading DI. The only characters who are hard to combo after the true percents are Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo because their airdodges have greater aerial mobility.

From around 100% onwards Uthrow Uair stops being a 50/50 as Uthrow sends them high enough for jumping to escape. However, Dthrow becomes a 50/50 where Fair will beat jumping (there's too much hitstun for DJ airdodge to work) and delayed Fair/Usmash will beat airdodging or attacking. This is DI-able, but if you condition forward DI you can Fthrow them to put them in a horrible offstage position. Dthrow is quick anyway, so they're unlikely to react and DI every time.

 

[Megamang]

Oh, also, whenever I hit a uair at the top of the screen, especially against not giant characters, theres a good 60%+ it doesn't fully connect. I can get them to fully connect when im hitting anywhere else, but when you're straining at the top of your double jump... uair just won't connect. It limits my effective uair kill range pretty significantly. Is this just a property of the move, or is there some timing I can use where I can hit them better? I was thinking about doing it like fox in melee, where I start it really early so the last hit of uair is the only one that hits them, but I haven't really tested that.

 

[bc1910]

Oh, also, whenever I hit a uair at the top of the screen, especially against not giant characters, theres a good 60%+ it doesn't fully connect. I can get them to fully connect when im hitting anywhere else, but when you're straining at the top of your double jump... uair just won't connect. It limits my effective uair kill range pretty significantly. Is this just a property of the move, or is there some timing I can use where I can hit them better? I was thinking about doing it like fox in melee, where I start it really early so the last hit of uair is the only one that hits them, but I haven't really tested that.

You can thank 1.0.4 for that.

Uair was nerfed so that hit 5 pops them up rather than sucks them in. You don't notice if you're using it while rising, but if you use it while falling or static in the air (like at the apex of your double jump) then they'll fall out.

Nothing can be done about it besides waiting for the opponent to fall lower before initiating the move.

 

[FullMoon]

You can pseudo chaingrab fastfallers like Captain Falcon and Sheik with D-Throw -> D-Tilt at low percentages if you get the hang of the timing. They can escape by jumping out, but if they do anything else they get hit and even if you whiff you shouldn't be punished for it. If you manage to get them caught in it as long as possible you can easily rack up around 25%

 

[Hashoraq]

Hey guys I got ''Another one!" Greninja vid. Please take a look like/sub if you want =)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgue2RXNZAw
Oh yeah! All feedback is appreciated.

 

[Mocha]

Hey guys. I just finished up the text portion of a Greninja guide I want to release before the end of the month. I'm going to add video examples before I release it here.

However, I need some help. It's 14 pages long and needs to be proofread before I release it. If any of you guys would be willing to read just a page or two and proofread for incorrect information or typos, I would be eternally grateful. I'll attach it to the post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAArEzEcEaFJ0xMHb3B5SMTR2IBiqTJCnzx0AYJT5e0/edit?usp=sharing

I am willing to help, did you want me to wait until you're completely done first? Thanks for taking your time to write this by the way, I've been writing an essay of notes myself on this character...

Congrats on your tourney as well c:

 

[Y2Kay]

happy birthday Illusion. !!!!!

imagine you're eating this:

 

[Illusion.]

Thank you, that looks delicious

 

[free33]

Hey guys. I just finished up the text portion of a Greninja guide I want to release before the end of the month. I'm going to add video examples before I release it here.

However, I need some help. It's 14 pages long and needs to be proofread before I release it. If any of you guys would be willing to read just a page or two and proofread for incorrect information or typos, I would be eternally grateful. I'll attach it to the post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yAArEzEcEaFJ0xMHb3B5SMTR2IBiqTJCnzx0AYJT5e0/edit?usp=sharing

hey Ludi I read and edited your guide over the weekend. I made a google drive copy so I could make comments. Can I have your email so I can share it with you?

 

[Megamang]

So, i'm sure im not the first person to think of this, but I've been pressuring shields in a new way. Using a RAR'd nair, often just SH without the FF, or FH with a FF, or even FH -> AD -> Nair... whatever way I can, I land the nair behind their shield while facing them, and start doing pressure mixups. This is especially deadly on those without a great OOS upB. If you are behind someone who can't effectively burst out of their shield, simply dtilting their shield and mixing in jabs is pretty damn terrifying. I like to do this when they are conditioned to expect to have to shield a FH -> Fair, since the nair can hit them out of a dodge if they try, and based on how distant I am spacing to land behind them its usually the sourspot.

So, they end up either sourspot nair -> usmash killed, or me just sitting behind their shield dtilting and jabbing, hoping mostly for a dtilt to hit to lead to yet another usmash.

Of course, this is a mixup and isn't totally safe. Its just a neat crossup greninja has against shield happy opponents. Often when you do this once, it'll radically decrease the % of time they shield, meaning fair gets to do much more work.

Anyone else have stuff they think might be under utilized in the general community?

 

[free33]

So, i'm sure im not the first person to think of this, but I've been pressuring shields in a new way. Using a RAR'd nair, often just SH without the FF, or FH with a FF, or even FH -> AD -> Nair... whatever way I can, I land the nair behind their shield while facing them, and start doing pressure mixups. This is especially deadly on those without a great OOS upB. If you are behind someone who can't effectively burst out of their shield, simply dtilting their shield and mixing in jabs is pretty damn terrifying. I like to do this when they are conditioned to expect to have to shield a FH -> Fair, since the nair can hit them out of a dodge if they try, and based on how distant I am spacing to land behind them its usually the sourspot.

So, they end up either sourspot nair -> usmash killed, or me just sitting behind their shield dtilting and jabbing, hoping mostly for a dtilt to hit to lead to yet another usmash.

Of course, this is a mixup and isn't totally safe. Its just a neat crossup greninja has against shield happy opponents. Often when you do this once, it'll radically decrease the % of time they shield, meaning fair gets to do much more work.

Anyone else have stuff they think might be under utilized in the general community?

yeah. Am i the only one who thinks Dtilt->RAR Bair should be used more often? Because I was labbing it a few days ago, and it is guaranteed after like 35% through like 95% (very rough estimate but you see my point.) We normally don't get much off of dtilt at mid percents. but this works perfectly, but i never see anyone do it ever. I would use it, but I haven't trained my RAR to be consistent mid-battle yet. Another one is Perfect Pivot Utilt. It should technically combo out of jab cancel, Dtilt at low percents, and Dthrow as an alternative to dtilt (about fourt more frames of startup for a better hitbox and better followups. I don't know how any of these would work (except out of jab cuz it's less startup than fsmash, which we already use).

 

[Mocha]

Pretty much most set ups that might lead into a Fair, such as Dash Attack, Dtilt, Dt-hrow, Nair, etc - could definitely be explored more for RAR Bair mix ups.

For instance, would it be a better alternative to Fair in the situation where an opponent is air dodge happy? Aside from the fact that you can delay the Fair or punish their landing with another move, I've been wondering if the multi-hit of Bair is something worthwhile to consider, since we have Jab for spot dodge happy folks.

 

[Megamang]

If they are airdodging, I like to try and land an usmash, even if it isn't kill percent. It does a lot of damage, hits easily (if you misstime the airdodge slightly you'll often still get a hit) and sets them up directly above greninja, which is a terrible place to be. Bair would be a decent choice for lower risk and lower reward, and if you feel you can win from keeping them in disadvantage a little longer than it is a good choice.

Its nice out of the back hit of utilt if they are DIing away, its the only thing that will hit I believe.

I use it mostly when greninja needs that fast startup aerial, although sometimes that is hard because you are being beaten up and its hard to turn around...

I use it landing a lot as well, to push people back. It can confirm into utilt at high percentages so if they drop shield, that works. or you can time it a little earlier, and the last hit is pretty good range and knockback but NOT a disjoint so be careful vs swords.


And of course, edgeguarding, its great. If someone is going to come up on the inside, don't have a hitbox, and aren't especially susceptible to hydro pump gimp, it can be a nice stagespike. I'd say its worth trying at lower percentages, since you might get a kill and a ledgetech isn't a terrible situation for you. At higher percents, hydro pump is ideal because you can kill with usmash if they go flying.

This might mean bair is a better choice at battlefield, which has both a bigger underside and a platform at the top where a hydropumped person can land to avoid usmash.

 

[Acton]

New greninja here; is there anyway to control whether greninja does the kick or flip out of shadow sneak? I've been labing utilt to ff dair to util to ss, seems like the kick is what you want for that follow up. . .

 

[Ludiloco]

New greninja here; is there anyway to control whether greninja does the kick or flip out of shadow sneak? I've been labing utilt to ff dair to util to ss, seems like the kick is what you want for that follow up. . .

Yes, you can control the kick. Greninja *should* automatically correct his kick to the direction of an opponent, but you can manually do so by inputting the direction you want him to kick, too.

I have no idea what that string even is that you're suggesting, but if you have video I would love to see it lol

 

[Acton]

I meant to say utilt> ff uair >utilt to ss, my bad. It's not like a guaranteed combo or anything, depending on the characters horizontal air movement it may be an option if people don't immediately jump, I figure I can wait for the air dodge then punish with shadow sneak. If they jump I can just use my second jump for the uair I figure. I figure it may be something I can use as a 50/50 option at 120% on characters like ike. Obviously it'd be different on other characters depending on weight and horizontal air movment, if they can DI to far to the left or right I may not be able to follow up for the ss.

I know greninja has a lot of mixups with shadow sneak in the air, I've seen phazex3ro use them frequently in his combo montages. At this point I'm just working on his bread and butter and 50/50s before I get into any fancy foot stool techniques or anything. It seemed like ss should be something I could control so I came here just for some general advice.

I'm actually looking for a greninja sensei, if anyone wants to teach me a thing or two I'm always willing! My nnid is acton678. I'm from the tristate area, been getting out to a lot of locals and made it out to shequinox over at hitbox arena in butler nj. I feel like I'm learning something new every time I get out so hopefully I can keep improving.

 

[free33]

technically greninja will use the flip if the opponent is in front of him and the kick if the opponent is behind him. But you can use the frontstab technique to always use the back kick (which you always want). It's one of the AT's described in the AT thread.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Way to represent @istudying!!!

 

[Larkisaurus]

Hey this idea came to my head today but I can't find the time to test it, I'm looking for someone that can. I think Gren may have a nice option select off down tilt around 80-120. Right after the down tilt, buffer a full hop up air. I think this would eat jump. If they air dodge or attack, they should be stuck in landing lag long enough to get a footstool>Dair spike into jablock or late dair into fair kill. Let me know if you try this out and its success rate, thanks

Edit: not option select, i think frame trap is the right term

 

[Partial_Credit]

Hey this idea came to my head today but I can't find the time to test it, I'm looking for someone that can. I think Gren may have a nice option select off down tilt around 80-120. Right after the down tilt, buffer a full hop up air. I think this would eat jump. If they air dodge or attack, they should be stuck in landing lag long enough to get a footstool>Dair spike into jablock or late dair into fair kill. Let me know if you try this out and its success rate, thanks

Edit: not option select, i think frame trap is the right term

You had me excited there when you said 'option select.' Really wish gren had some actual useful option selects.

 

[Megamang]

We can probably create some option selects around shield, much like anyone can, where powershield has a different outcome than regular shield. Something like fsmash or roll in would be sick, but dangerous to be rolling often.

But yea, I need to look into it with someone better at that kind of thing but a footstool confirm is ideal. Hmmmm, im interested now.

Option selects are something we will only see very, very theory/lab/practice based players pull out first, but it'll start making a huge difference. I think the lack of them in other smash games has slowed their general uptake by the community.

 

[Larkisaurus]

I should have time to test the down tilt thing later today, I'll let you all know what I find out

 

[Partial_Credit]

Yep. The only good option select that I know for greninja is shieldgrab/uptilt to catch landings. Unfortunately, greninja doesn't have the frame data to make option selects happen :| At least we have perfect pivot tho

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

By the by, some people who advocated against Greninja claimed that it was because it's moveset was redundant. To whom, may I ask. And how?
I bet they say it because of Sheik's presence but she and Greninja have nothing in common despite sharing a ninja motif, although Sheik is more akin to a medieval assassin while Greninja adheres to traditional japanese ninjutsu. I swear, anyone who says that the two are alike deserves as slap, it's no different from the asinine claim of Lucario being an edited clone of Mewtwo.

 

[Jaguar360]

By the by, some people who advocated against Greninja claimed that it was because it's moveset was redundant. To whom, may I ask. And how?
I bet they say it because of Sheik's presence but she and Greninja have nothing in common despite sharing a ninja motif, although Sheik is more akin to a medieval assassin while Greninja adheres to traditional japanese ninjutsu. I swear, anyone who says that the two are alike deserves as slap, it's no different from the asinine claim of Lucario being an edited clone of Mewtwo.

There is no redundant move in Greninja's kit, at least ever since f-tilt and d-throw got buffed. People will say anything as an excuse to keep this character down.

 

[Megamang]

Redundant to himself? I don't think so, I use almost every move in each match. Maybe I go most matches without a counter, but that is MU dependent.

Redundant to the rest of the cast? Well, he has a great dashgrab, a startup-loaded fair, a yomi-on-shield-nair... you know, things that happen to be in common because the cast is almost freaking 60 characters so they can't all have different properties everywhere unless you made Mario through zzMario who is purple and has 15 jumps.