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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

Guimartgon

Guimartgon

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So Waveguider (that super good WFT from Australia) still plays Greninja quite a bit. He got 5th at Battle Arena Melbourne 8, featuring great players such as Abadango(who he pulled the frog against), 9B, Umeki and mr R.
 
Guimartgon

Guimartgon

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So Footstool out of shield. Greninja gets Dair as we all know but any ideas on what else we could get? I've been messing with Footstool and fast fall bair. As in you hit them with the first 2 hits of bair as you land, which true combos into Utilt at high %s and can kill confirm into Uair. I've gotten it a few times in training mode but I couldn't tell you if it was true (the FS to Bair) since I don't have a lab partner. Other ideas? I guess Dair spike can already combo into a footstool combo as well as Uair spike set ups.
 
free33

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Guimartgon said:
So Footstool out of shield. Greninja gets Dair as we all know but any ideas on what else we could get? I've been messing with Footstool and fast fall bair. As in you hit them with the first 2 hits of bair as you land, which true combos into Utilt at high %s and can kill confirm into Uair. I've gotten it a few times in training mode but I couldn't tell you if it was true (the FS to Bair) since I don't have a lab partner. Other ideas? I guess Dair spike can already combo into a footstool combo as well as Uair spike set ups.
Click to expand...
I wonder if fastfall nair is possible. it comes out 3 frames earlier than dair spike, but dair spike doesn't have to change momentum first. I actually kinda doubt it now that i think about it. But bair would probably work with frame 5 startup.
 
Jaguar360

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@Coffee™ I see you with that quiet losers run at VSGC. Good stuff dude.

Guimartgon said:
So Footstool out of shield. Greninja gets Dair as we all know but any ideas on what else we could get? I've been messing with Footstool and fast fall bair. As in you hit them with the first 2 hits of bair as you land, which true combos into Utilt at high %s and can kill confirm into Uair. I've gotten it a few times in training mode but I couldn't tell you if it was true (the FS to Bair) since I don't have a lab partner. Other ideas? I guess Dair spike can already combo into a footstool combo as well as Uair spike set ups.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I can't seem to come up with anything practical for this aside from d-air. N-air's too slow, the specials and U-air hit too high to work, and there aren't any other options that can work after a grounded footstool aside from maybe the fastfall b-air that you mentioned. D-air is still really cool at least though, even though it's techable.
 
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Y2Kay

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Dark Aura is in GF of Montreal SSB. Give him good vibes, ninjas ◥θ┴θ◤

:150:
 
free33

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Guimartgon said:
So Footstool out of shield. Greninja gets Dair as we all know but any ideas on what else we could get? I've been messing with Footstool and fast fall bair. As in you hit them with the first 2 hits of bair as you land, which true combos into Utilt at high %s and can kill confirm into Uair. I've gotten it a few times in training mode but I couldn't tell you if it was true (the FS to Bair) since I don't have a lab partner. Other ideas? I guess Dair spike can already combo into a footstool combo as well as Uair spike set ups.
Click to expand...
I believe the first 2 hits of bair also confirms into dtilt, which can confirm into Usmash or fair or RAR bair depending on percent.
 
Jaguar360

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iStudying, Venia and aMSa are all gonna be at Super Smash Con next week. :) It's gonna be good.
 
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Guimartgon

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Awesome. Match up spreads are always fun food for thought imo.

So let's get onto this:
40-60: I agree that Sonic is our worst MU and the only one bad enough to be considered a 60-40. We have very limited tools vs spindash, and those tools are extremely hard to use due to the versatility and speed of spindash. So we get consumed in the neutral really fast.

45-55: Now I do have some discrepancies here. I agree with Sheik, Mewtwo, Fox and Diddy but I don't have enough practice in the Lucario MU to know why you'd say it's 45:55 so I'd enjoy reading your opinion on it. I also feel like we lose the MM MU but there was a whole discussion on that in the MU thread.

50-50:I agree with all of them, I'd also add Mario to this since I think that we only really beat him on FD and maybe DH whereas he is hell in lylat, BF and DL64 thanks to his frame data and cape.

55-45: First off, please enlighten me on the Olimar MU since it's incredibly foreign to me. I agree with most of it, I do not know how to feel about the Yoshi MU but since I learned that his armor is knockback based and not % based I've seen it as a much better MU than I previously thought. I also think Ike and Samus are 60:40.

60-40: I think we **** puff, crouching Utilt breaks 90% of her options and leads to kills. I'd put it at 65:35 easily. Everything else I can agree with. I'd wanna put Zelda here too since I don't know the MU and apparently she has scary crap + decent reflector.

65-35: Yeah rip these people.

So yeah I pretty much agree with you but I just wanna know your reasoning behind a few things
 
Illusion.

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Beating Mario? Yeah, I heavily disagree.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Mewtwo beats us.

Lucario beating us is interesting, I don't know the MU very well so I have nothing to say.
 
Y2Kay

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I put Lucario as a losing MU because of our kill confirms. They aren't bad, but they all require getting very close to Lucario. We don't kill him below 100% without some luck. Once he hit's the 120 mark He can just completely wall us out with his gigantic aura spheres and force palms. It could still be even, but right now I think we lose slightly.

Don't see what's controversial about us beating Mario 55:45. Tricky movement, smart shuriken usage, and well spaced Forward Airs give Mario a hard time. Ally lost to Amsa and Some, and also has dropped multiple sets to Dark Aura. He doesn't even go Mario anymore if I remember. I'm not entirely sure if he has changed his opinion, but he believed it was a bad match up for Mario. He thought it was even worse than I do. To top it all off, Oisiitouhu beat Tatsutsuyo, Japan's best Mario.

Also happy birthday Mocha~
:150:
 
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Illusion.

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Did DarkAura beat Ally off stream? Every set of them I saw on YouTube is of DarkAura losing. Was Some vs Ally also offstream, I never heard about him losing to Some and I couldn't find footage of it either. aMSa beating Ally was also an entire metagame ago. Also, I'm certain that FILIP is Japan's best Mario, unless things have changed. In fact, FILIP convincingly defeated Lea (the Greninja that sent Abadango to loser's at one of the recent tournaments) at Umebura 23 and Gibus lost to MilkyCoco at a recent Shockwave. I know exactly how to play this MU, but I don't even use Greninja in this MU anymore because it's frustrating, I opt for Mewtwo.

The thing with Mario is that his frame data, combo game, and damage output are just way too good. One can say "keep Mario out, we outrange him" as much as they want, but it is inevitable that Mario is going to get in. His mobility is better in this game, he is going to get in at some point, and when he does, it's going to hurt a lot. His combos are so much easier to pull off/set up and do more damage that it's easy for him to make a comeback from a deficit or strengthen a lead, meanwhile any damage we get on Mario tends to be chip damage from Fair or Shuriken due to being hard to contest his little endlag, fast moves. He can safely pressure our shield because of a lot of his moves are safe and our OoS options are bad. Our Fair (frame 16) move can be easily seen and perfect shielded, resulting in us being punished; remember that I said Mario gets harsh punishes on us. It can be hard for him to kill though since we are faster, but in return it is also hard for us to kill him since he has a spammable, relatively safe kill option in Usmash that he can just throw out when he expects us to go for a grounded kill move.

I can see people believing it's even, but winning? I just don't see it.
 
Y2Kay

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My b. I meant Dark Aura took games off of Ally. Some beat Ally off stream, yeah. Tatsu is considered the better Mario, according to the Japanese last time I checked. Tofu is better than Lea, you can tell by how they play.I already broke down why he lost that match in the tourney critique thread. I definitely get that Mario gives you a rough time, but the evidence leans to the MU being in our favor.

:150:
 
ROBnWatch

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NonSpecificGuy said:
Freaking Mii fighters are the most useless things ever, in my opinion. They're not viable in the least. They took way too much development time. And they aren't even fun to dress up. My opinion though, no offense meant to anyone.
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This is not meant to attack your opinion (since I really don't feel like getting into an argument with a Moderator, lol), I just thought I'd share mine.

While I know Mii Fighters aren't represented much in the competitive scene (since some tournaments allow them while others don't), I think they are quite fun to play. Maybe not the most fun to play as, but they have their gimmicks, quirks, etc. just like every other character. I especially enjoy the Brawler, who, in my opinion, is the best of the three. Followed by the Gunner and then Swordfighter.

Viable, well from the current tier list it doesn't seem like they are, but I honestly think that's because, again, not all tournaments allow them and thus they aren't represented fully. But I honestly don't think I should delve too much into that, simply because I'm not that much of a competitive player.

As for dressing them up, well, you're pretty right about that. You might find one or two outfits you really like for each class of Mii, and that's probably the one you'll stick with for a loooooong time. I've only got two outfits I enjoy for my Brawler, two for my Swordfighter, and only one for my Gunner.

Again, just my opinion. I think they're cool enough, and this coming from a guy who absolutely hated the idea of Miis in Smash up until I saw what Sakurai and co. did with them. But if you feel like hating them go right on ahead. We've all got that character(s) who we hate.

Back to Greninja though.
 
NonSpecificGuy

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ROBnWatch said:
This is not meant to attack your opinion (since I really don't feel like getting into an argument with a Moderator, lol), I just thought I'd share mine.

While I know Mii Fighters aren't represented much in the competitive scene (since some tournaments allow them while others don't), I think they are quite fun to play. Maybe not the most fun to play as, but they have their gimmicks, quirks, etc. just like every other character. I especially enjoy the Brawler, who, in my opinion, is the best of the three. Followed by the Gunner and then Swordfighter.

Viable, well from the current tier list it doesn't seem like they are, but I honestly think that's because, again, not all tournaments allow them and thus they aren't represented fully. But I honestly don't think I should delve too much into that, simply because I'm not that much of a competitive player.

As for dressing them up, well, you're pretty right about that. You might find one or two outfits you really like for each class of Mii, and that's probably the one you'll stick with for a loooooong time. I've only got two outfits I enjoy for my Brawler, two for my Swordfighter, and only one for my Gunner.

Again, just my opinion. I think they're cool enough, and this coming from a guy who absolutely hated the idea of Miis in Smash up until I saw what Sakurai and co. did with them. But if you feel like hating them go right on ahead. We've all got that character(s) who we hate.

Back to Greninja though.
Click to expand...
You disagree with my opinion? Imma infract you! Lels!

No, seriously though I can see why people would like them. I'm sure they can be fun for others. For me though it's more of an excuse for Sakurai to avoid scepticism. Which is fine but it took a lot development time to get them working right. Plus, they're super ugly. All of them. Just blegh. The costumes are nice but I didn't get them because the faces are just so unappealing.

Again, opinions are opinions. That's mine.

Edit: it doesn't help that I don't like any of their individual playstyles either...
 
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ROBnWatch

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NonSpecificGuy said:
You disagree with my opinion? Imma infract you! Lels!

No, seriously though I can see why people would like them. I'm sure they can be fun for others. For me though it's more of an excuse for Sakurai to avoid scepticism. Which is fine but it took a lot development time to get them working right. Plus, they're super ugly. All of them. Just blegh. The costumes are nice but I didn't get them because the faces are just so unappealing.

Again, opinions are opinions. That's mine.

Edit: it doesn't help that I don't like any of their individual playstyles either...
Click to expand...
Cool. Agree to disagree.
 
Guimartgon

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I'm gonna support the screw miis crew for 1 reason:
Mii players are annoying as heck, at least the ones in my two communities (CO and spain) who won't shut up about them wanting us to fill surveys to help miis and going on crazy rants about them that are just filling our FB page with useless stuff.
If all mii players I've encountered weren't the most obnoxious creatures on Earth, miis would be fine.
 
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Lawliet626

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Not sure if anyone noticed, but this weekend we had ALOT of frog rep at SSC, as venia got 25th taking out a lot of notable names such as Rango, Gomamugitya, Wadi, Matty G, not only that but this man actually outplaced gibus and Amsa
The age of the frogs is coming!
 
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