Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[FullMoon]

Chicken makes everything better.

 

[Marilink]

Blink, do you Up-Angle it for those purposes, or does just a straight Ftilt do all that for you?

 

[Mocha]

Well, for the Pokemon Showdown players here, Greninja is officially banned from OU. Bittersweet because even though it was rightly deserving of the ban, I'm going to miss using him in standard play. Time to start using it more in Ubers/Doubles/Triples I guess. Poor froggy.

Smogon why...

I'm waaay out of the loop with the current Pokémon meta since earlyish 6th gen. Still, has everyone really become that fed up with Protean, that they'd bump him up in the tiers?

 

[FullMoon]

Smogon why...

I'm waaay out of the loop with the current Pokémon meta since earlyish 6th gen. Still, has everyone really become that fed up with Protean, that they'd bump him up in the tiers?

It's less Protean and more Greninja's moveset making him virtually unstoppable thanks to ORAS giving him Gunk Shot, which made fairies go from being the main answer to him to being just nuked by him.

Greninja only needs 40 EVs in attack in order to be able to OHKO Azumarill and non-physically defensive Clefable with Gunk Shot, that's saying a lot.

In fact Greninja got so good with ORAS that he didn't even need a water move anymore. You could just run Gunk Shot/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam and a fourth move depending on what your team needs and sweep everything for days.

 

[Mocha]

It's less Protean and more Greninja's moveset making him virtually unstoppable thanks to ORAS giving him Gunk Shot, which made fairies go from being the main answer to him to being just nuked by him.

Greninja only needs 40 EVs in attack in order to be able to OHKO Azumarill and non-physically defensive Clefable with Gunk Shot, that's saying a lot.

In fact Greninja got so good with ORAS that he didn't even need a water move anymore. You could just run Gunk Shot/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam and a fourth move depending on what your team needs and sweep everything for days.

I didn't realize he got Gunk Shot in ORAS - I assume through the move tutors? Still need to finish the game lol, been too busy or playing other games otherwise.

I'm surprised his Gunk Shot, even with a little attack investment, would kill something as bulky as Azumarrill. That's nuts. But Poison only really covers Fairy and Grass (which Ice Beam tends to suffice for), but I suppose with his other moves included, he has well rounded coverage. And since Steel no longer resists Dark, you don't have to worry about getting walled by them.

A mixed offensive Greninja doesn't sound very strong though, since his base attack is 'ok' and his special attack is 'decent', and having to spread out EVs into both feels like he won't be hitting very hard. I suppose he still hits hard enough, to warrant that placement in tiers. Ubers though? Just seems a bit frail there imo.

 

[Ekans647]

I don't see why they just put in place a complex ban that prevented Greninja from running Gunk Shot/Low is alongside protean. He wasn't a problem before ORAS, so why ban him?

 

[Mocha]

It is also worth noting that Gunk Shot has less than desirable accuracy, so moving a character up a tier because of one move, which has lolz accuracy and only hits 2 types super effective, just seems a bit drastic, that's all.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't see why they just put in place a complex ban that prevented Greninja from running Gunk Shot/Low is alongside protean. He wasn't a problem before ORAS, so why ban him?

Doing a ban like that opens a whole new can of issues like "Let's make Blaziken legal by banning Speed Boost on him" and "Let's unban Shaymin Sky form by banning Air Slash on it" and stuff like that until the metagame becomes a mess of rules.

It's also worth nothing that nothing can reliably stop Greninja because his moveset is varied enough that almost nothing can switch into it without risking the possibility of it packing a SE move against your check.

 

[Ekans647]

Doing a ban like that opens a whole new can of issues like "Let's make Blaziken legal by banning Speed Boost on him" and "Let's unban Shaymin Sky form by banning Air Slash on it" and stuff like that until the metagame becomes a mess of rules.

It's also worth nothing that nothing can reliably stop Greninja because his moveset is varied enough that almost nothing can switch into it without risking the possibility of it packing a SE move against your check.

I goes that makes sense. To bad since I liked Greninja.

 

[Mocha]

I never saw the day Poison would become a staple in some move-sets lol.

You make a good point, and I suppose the addition of mega stones, and banning mega stones, further complicates the already rule-cramped competitive Pokémon community. It just shocks me how much Gunk Shot has apparently affected Greninja.

I remember back in the day, Mew used to be Uber because it could learn every TM, and was too 'unpredictable' to counter. Over time, it couldn't keep up with the terrors in Ubers, and it moved down to OU. Apparently, it still couldn't handle it - and last I checked it was in UU. It's funny how Smogon tiers can be.

 

[Ekans647]

As great as the site can be, the suspect tests make me feel this way.

 

[FullMoon]

For reference, looking at the OU Pokémon and hiding it for the not interested:

Spoiler

Azumarill: OHKO by Gunk Shot
Bisharp: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Breelom: OHKO'd by Ice Beam or Extrasensory
Chansey: Can be 2HKO'd by Low Kick if Stealth Rocks are in play
Charizard X: 2KO'd by Ice Beam, guaranteed if Stealth Rock is in play.
Charizard Y: Same as above
Clefable: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot unless using a physically defensive set
Conkelldur: 2HKO'd by Extrasensory
Dragonite: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Excadrill: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Ferrothorn: 2HKO'd by Low Kick, OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fire
Garchomp: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Gallade: 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gardevoir: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot
Gengar: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gliscor: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Gothitelle: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Gunk Shot; with Stealth Rocks in play that happens even if it has Intimidate
Mega Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Heatran: Potentially OHKO'd by Low Kick with Stealth Rocks in play
Heracross: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Mega Heracross: Same.
Keldeo: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Kyurem Black: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Landorus (both forms): OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Latios/Latias: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Latias: 2HKO'd by Ice Beam

I could keep going but I think you see my point now. Greninja can at least 2HKO the entirety of the OU tier with the right moves. So you just can't switch anything into it without taking a huge risk, plus if you sacrifice a mon to send something a scarf like Landorus-T to get it, Greninja can just switch out to one of his 5 teammates to deal with the threat.

Greninja is just too much awesomeness for OU to handle.

 

[Mocha]

For reference, looking at the OU Pokémon and hiding it for the not interested:

Spoiler

Azumarill: OHKO by Gunk Shot
Bisharp: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Breelom: OHKO'd by Ice Beam or Extrasensory
Chansey: Can be 2HKO'd by Low Kick if Stealth Rocks are in play
Charizard X: 2KO'd by Ice Beam, guaranteed if Stealth Rock is in play.
Charizard Y: Same as above
Clefable: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot unless using a physically defensive set
Conkelldur: 2HKO'd by Extrasensory
Dragonite: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Excadrill: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Ferrothorn: 2HKO'd by Low Kick, OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fire
Garchomp: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Gallade: 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gardevoir: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot
Gengar: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gliscor: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Gothitelle: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Gunk Shot; with Stealth Rocks in play that happens even if it has Intimidate
Mega Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Heatran: Potentially OHKO'd by Low Kick with Stealth Rocks in play
Heracross: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Mega Heracross: Same.
Keldeo: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Kyurem Black: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Landorus (both forms): OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Latios/Latias: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Latias: 2HKO'd by Ice Beam

I could keep going but I think you see my point now. Greninja can at least 2HKO the entirety of the OU tier with the right moves. So you just can't switch anything into it without taking a huge risk, plus if you sacrifice a mon to send something a scarf like Landorus-T to get it, Greninja can just switch out to one of his 5 teammates to deal with the threat.

Greninja is just too much awesomeness for OU to handle.

What is normally the hold item? Life Orb? Expert Belt? If it's a choice item, you can counter a bit more easily. This reminds me of the days where Porygon-Z and Genesect were monsters in OU, and how it would hurt to switch into them.

 

[Ekans647]

For reference, looking at the OU Pokémon and hiding it for the not interested:

Spoiler

Azumarill: OHKO by Gunk Shot
Bisharp: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Breelom: OHKO'd by Ice Beam or Extrasensory
Chansey: Can be 2HKO'd by Low Kick if Stealth Rocks are in play
Charizard X: 2KO'd by Ice Beam, guaranteed if Stealth Rock is in play.
Charizard Y: Same as above
Clefable: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot unless using a physically defensive set
Conkelldur: 2HKO'd by Extrasensory
Dragonite: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Excadrill: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Ferrothorn: 2HKO'd by Low Kick, OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fire
Garchomp: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Gallade: 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gardevoir: OHKO'd by Gunk Shot
Gengar: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gliscor: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Gothitelle: OHKO'd by Dark Pulse
Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Gunk Shot; with Stealth Rocks in play that happens even if it has Intimidate
Mega Gyarados: 2HKO'd by Low Kick
Heatran: Potentially OHKO'd by Low Kick with Stealth Rocks in play
Heracross: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Mega Heracross: Same.
Keldeo: OHKO'd by Extrasensory
Kyurem Black: OHKO'd by Low Kick
Landorus (both forms): OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Latios/Latias: OHKO'd by Ice Beam
Mega Latias: 2HKO'd by Ice Beam

I could keep going but I think you see my point now. Greninja can at least 2HKO the entirety of the OU tier with the right moves. So you just can't switch anything into it without taking a huge risk, plus if you sacrifice a mon to send something a scarf like Landorus-T to get it, Greninja can just switch out to one of his 5 teammates to deal with the threat.

Greninja is just too much awesomeness for OU to handle.

Alright. You've convinced me. If only these stats applied to smash.

 

[Mocha]

Alright. You've convinced me. If only these stats applied to smash.

Well you see... that's where Greninja has a perk over Pikachu. Pikachu will always be better in Smash than in Pokémon. Greninja can now boast the opposite

Jk, love Greninja

 

[FullMoon]

What is normally the hold item? Life Orb? Expert Belt? If it's a choice item, you can counter a bit more easily. This reminds me of the days where Porygon-Z and Genesect were monsters in OU, and how it would hurt to switch into them.

Greninja is packing a Life Orb 90% of the time. Those results are with Life Orb in play.

But hey at least Greninja is godly in Pokémon and great in Smash, Pikachu can really only boast about it's performance in Smash =P

 

[Mocha]

And Jigglypuff can be bad in all. Except Melee. Though I heard Jiggz is much better than Brawl this time around.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, she's not bad in Smash 4.

Mewtwo can boast being an uber yet garbage in Melee. That something to really boast about though?

Pichu can..well...nevermind.

 

[FullMoon]

And Charizard was NU until Megas became a thing and I'm not certain about this but wasn't he pretty low tier in Brawl too?

Lucario and Greninja seem to have been blessed with being decent at worst in both series =P

 

[Ekans647]

And Charizard was NU until Megas became a thing and I'm not certain about this but wasn't he pretty low tier in Brawl too?

Lucario and Greninja seem to have been blessed with being decent at worst in both series =P

Charizard was low tier in Brawl. My concorn about Greninja is that he needs to commit far more to his options than Shiek has to. Wht advantages does Graninja have over Shiek anyway?

 

[FullMoon]

An easier time killing, pretty much. Greninja is also more mobile than Sheik I think, he's a faster walker, runner and faller than her and he also weights more I think.

 

[MartinAW4]

An easier time killing, pretty much. Greninja is also more mobile than Sheik I think, he's a faster walker, runner and faller than her and he also weights more I think.

The mobility is actually very similar. For example the difference in dash speed is so minimal, that I couldn`t even notice it when I measured it with a stop watch. But you`re right, we do technically have a slightly better mobility than Sheik. The weight is identical for both characters though.

I think the biggest difference is that we have better range on many of our moves like all of our smash attacks, Ftilt, Fair, Nair, Jab, Grab, most of which have disjointed hitboxes, so they have very high priority and are good for spacing. Especially our Jab`s priority is crazy good. The first hit clinks with smash attacks, projectiles and even Doctor Mario`s Tornado, which normally outprioritizes everything.

We also have a better projectile against projectile-less characters because Water Shuriken racks up damage much faster than Sheik`s Needles and it can also kill when charged. That`s why I prefer to use Greninja over Sheik against characters like Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf and Charizard.

Other things that separate us from Sheik are our unique gimping moves like Hydro Pump and Shadow Sneak, the fact that we have a kill throw in Uthrow while none of Sheik`s throws kills even at 300%, we also have Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling which makes us the only character in the game that can cancel out of true combos and some of our moves are better than her`s like Jab, Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Uair, Dair and side B.

So while overall Sheik is a better character than Greninja, we aren`t completely outclassed by her either.

 

[Lavani]

the fact that we have a kill throw in Uthrow while none of Sheik`s throws kills even at 300%

I think that's a little unfair to say, though. Even if Sheik doesn't have any throws that kill directly, fthrow>bouncing fish (and fthrow>bair?) true combo around 100% and she has a uair/upB mixup off dthrow. After our uair nerf we don't get potential kills off throws that early.

 

[Ekans647]

The mobility is actually very similar. For example the difference in dash speed is so minimal, that I couldn`t even notice it when I measured it with a stop watch. But you`re right, we do technically have a slightly better mobility than Sheik. The weight is identical for both characters though.

I think the biggest difference is that we have better range on many of our moves like all of our smash attacks, Ftilt, Fair, Nair, Jab, Grab, most of which have disjointed hitboxes, so they have very high priority and are good for spacing. Especially our Jab`s priority is crazy good. The first hit clinks with smash attacks, projectiles and even Doctor Mario`s Tornado, which normally outprioritizes everything.

We also have a better projectile against projectile-less characters because Water Shuriken racks up damage much faster than Sheik`s Needles and it can also kill when charged. That`s why I prefer to use Greninja over Sheik against characters like Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf and Charizard.

Other things that separate us from Sheik are our unique gimping moves like Hydro Pump and Shadow Sneak, the fact that we have a kill throw in Uthrow while none of Sheik`s throws kills even at 300%, we also have Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling which makes us the only character in the game that can cancel out of true combos and some of our moves are better than her`s like Jab, Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Uair, Dair and side B.

So while overall Sheik is a better character than Greninja, we aren`t completely outclassed by her either.

So while lacking the flexibility of Sheik, we gain the disjoint of Marth. I predicted this when greninja was initially revealed.

 

[FullMoon]

The mobility is actually very similar. For example the difference in dash speed is so minimal, that I couldn`t even notice it when I measured it with a stop watch. But you`re right, we do technically have a slightly better mobility than Sheik. The weight is identical for both characters though.

Actually according to the weight rankings, Greninja's weight value is 94 (same as Ness) and Sheik's 85 (same as Zelda's fittingly). So we do weight more than her and so this means we're slightly better at surviving as well.

 

[MartinAW4]

I think that's a little unfair to say, though. Even if Sheik doesn't have any throws that kill directly, fthrow>bouncing fish (and fthrow>bair?) true combo around 100% and she has a uair/upB mixup off dthrow. After our uair nerf we don't get potential kills off throws that early.

Fthrow -> Bouncing Fish only works at low to mid percents. It`s good for early game damage dealing, but it doesn`t combo at kill %.
She does have Dthrow -> Uair which is a true combo at kill %, but even that can be DI-ed out of.
That`s why having a kill throw is so great, especially those that kill off the top, because you know that once you land a grab you are guaranteed to get a kill no matter what the opponent does.

Actually according to the weight rankings, Greninja's weight value is 94 (same as Ness) and Sheik's 85 (same as Zelda's fittingly). So we do weight more than her and so this means we're slightly better at surviving as well.

Oh, I thought you meant in-game weight which is 24 for both characters. Do you know how the weight in the weight rankings thread was calculated?

 

[FullMoon]

.Oh, I thought you meant in-game weight which is 24 for both characters. Do you know how the weight in the weight rankings thread was calculated?

Not really. I just went there to see it because I thought for sure Greninja was heavier than Sheik.

 

[MartinAW4]

Not really. I just went there to see it because I thought for sure Greninja was heavier than Sheik.

Well either way, it seems to be more accurate than the in-game values because based on our Uthrow kill % from KERO`s thread, Greninja dies at 153% while Sheik at 148%, so Greninja is definitely heavier than Sheik.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh, so yeah, that's another thing Greninja has over Sheik. Not as relevant but still good to know.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

So I was using Greninja in a tourney on Wednesday and got 9th out of 22. Probably would have done better if I didn't switch to Sonic last game. (Been doing horrible with Sonic as of late but Greninja has been doing surprisingly well. weird..)

 

[Spirst]

So I was using Greninja in a tourney on Wednesday and got 9th out of 22. Probably would have done better if I didn't switch to Sonic last game. (Been doing horrible with Sonic as of late but Greninja has been doing surprisingly well. weird..)

This actually reminds me we don't have any tournament results thread. Would anyone be in favor of one?

 

[FullMoon]

Well, I certainly don't see a reason to go against the idea.

 

[Coffee™]

*Random thoughts after practicing Greninja for a few hrs again yesterday.*

I realize most people still play the character quite aggressively akin to how pre-patch Greninja was played, myself included. However I started to see quite a bit more success as I shifted his playstyle from fairly aggressive to mainly defensive. The patch nerfed a lot of Greninja's offensive potential in general, we all know this. However, his punish game is still really good ( one of the best in the game) and combined with his mobility options and ability to make opponents approach via WS I feel like he actually plays more effectively as a hit and run character similar to Brawl Fox / Wario.

He plays a pretty good keep away game with his high jumps, fast run speed and Hydro Pump spacing game and with the constant threat of whiffed moves being punished by his insane dash grab or SS I feel like this may be something to look into a bit more.

 

[Spirst]

*Random thoughts after practicing Greninja for a few hrs again yesterday.*

I realize most people still play the character quite aggressively akin to how pre-patch Greninja was played, myself included. However I started to see quite a bit more success as I shifted his playstyle from fairly aggressive to mainly defensive. The patch nerfed a lot of Greninja's offensive potential in general, we all know this. However, his punish game is still really good ( one of the best in the game) and combined with his mobility options and ability to make opponents approach via WS I feel like he actually plays more effectively as a hit and run character similar to Brawl Fox / Wario.

He plays a pretty good keep away game with his high jumps, fast run speed and Hydro Pump spacing game and with the constant threat of whiffed moves being punished by his insane dash grab or SS I feel like this may be something to look into a bit more.

I share a similar sentiment. For a while after 1.0.4, I kept playing Greninja the same way and while it had a certain degree of effectiveness, I felt like something was off. I swtiched to a more reactive/defensive/patient style of play with Greninja and I'm finding that it actually works quite well given his ability to make quick punishes and bait things out. He has some tools to play an offensive game but I feel he shines when being used as a reactionary character rather than one constantly dealing pressure.

 

[FullMoon]

Have some gifs from my adventure through For Glory today:

I'm a jerk.

I have no idea how this happened.

Something I'll keep in mind when I have other Greninja dittos =P

The best way to have revenge on Diddy.

Substitute is still amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Have some gifs from my adventure through For Glory today:

I'm a jerk.

I have no idea how this happened.

Something I'll keep in mind when I have other Greninja dittos =P

The best way to have revenge on Diddy.

Substitute is still amazing.

LOL, dat last one.

 

[Golden Sun]

Anyone else rage when they BNF where the stage is? shadow sneaking when you accidently want to use hydro pump up but also want to do it vertical but when you do it vertical you do shadow sneak, I rage so much over this.
also, Greninja vs Kirby who wins?

 

[Spirst]

Greninja, I'd say. Kirby has good combo potential but Greninja has better mobility/damage output/range/a good projectile/KO potential and Kirby's smaller hurtbox is mostly negated by the fact that Greninja has a smallish hurtbox too and thus won't whiff a ducking Kirby much at all.

 

[MartinAW4]

Have some gifs from my adventure through For Glory today:

I'm a jerk.

I have no idea how this happened.

Something I'll keep in mind when I have other Greninja dittos =P

The best way to have revenge on Diddy.

Substitute is still amazing.

In your second gif you were able to kill Fox with Bair so soon because the first 2 hits of Bair have very strong fixed knockback if the last hit doesn`t connect. It doesn`t always work and I still don`t know how to perform it exactly, but I know the knockback is fixed because they launch the opponent very far even at 0% an they don`t kill even at 999%.
If we found out a reliable way to perform this, we could stage spike opponents at 0% or outright kill them with the Bthrow -> Bair -> Bair string.

 

[wizardto1]

So I been doing more running up smashes lately....
Why didn't I used this earlier! It is absolutely amazing!