Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Deleted member]

Anyone see that Greninja named AkashicSword play at Paragon? Sheesh.

 

[BlinkIV]

Nope. What did he do?

 

[FullMoon]

In your second gif you were able to kill Fox with Bair so soon because the first 2 hits of Bair have very strong fixed knockback if the last hit doesn`t connect. It doesn`t always work and I still don`t know how to perform it exactly, but I know the knockback is fixed because they launch the opponent very far even at 0% an they don`t kill even at 999%.
If we found out a reliable way to perform this, we could stage spike opponents at 0% or outright kill them with the Bthrow -> Bair -> Bair string.

I see, making the gif go in slow motion, it seems that for that to work the opponent needs to be pretty much inside Greninja when we use the b-air. The hitbox on it is pretty weird.

 

[Deleted member]

Nope. What did he do?

He played really well but got eliminated by a Pikachu on the 5th game of a bo5, unfortunately. You can tell he practices a lot with the character, might even focus solely on it. Is Pikachu a difficult match up for Greninja?

He also made an insane comeback game 4. Hopefully the videos get uploaded soon so you guys can see it. He's playing some friendlies right now if any of you want to watch.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Any fellow Ninja's want to join a smash club? It's a place myself and a friend created for people to challenge each other to get better, have random discussions on different topics, and to just have a good time. If you're interested, just let me know! Figured I'd let you guys know, since other than the Mewtwo thread, you guys have been rather kind and open to me, and I thank you for that. What was that? That was too cheesy? Eh, I tried my best.

 

[FullMoon]

He played really well but got eliminated by a Pikachu on the 5th game of a bo5, unfortunately. You can tell he practices a lot with the character, might even focus solely on it. Is Pikachu a difficult match up for Greninja?

He also made an insane comeback game 4. Hopefully the videos get uploaded soon so you guys can see it. He's playing some friendlies right now if any of you want to watch.

I don't think Greninja is a particularly bad MU for Pikachu, in fact I think the reverse is true since none of Greninja's attacks can really miss Pikachu since he attacks so low to the ground, he can play the projectile game with Water Shuriken and Pikachu has some problems nailing kills while Greninja can take him out fairly early due to him being light. Greninja and Pikachu both have excellent recoveries as well so they're probably going to struggle to gimp each other unless Pikachu gets lucky with a Thunder gimp.

I think the Pikachu MU is slightly on Greninja's favor myself.

 

[Ekans647]

Any fellow Ninja's want to join a smash club? It's a place myself and a friend created for people to challenge each other to get better, have random discussions on different topics, and to just have a good time. If you're interested, just let me know! Figured I'd let you guys know, since other than the Mewtwo thread, you guys have been rather kind and open to me, and I thank you for that. What was that? That was too cheesy? Eh, I tried my best.

Where is this club? It sound interesting?

I don't think Greninja is a particularly bad MU for Pikachu, in fact I think the reverse is true since none of Greninja's attacks can really miss Pikachu since he attacks so low to the ground, he can play the projectile game with Water Shuriken and Pikachu has some problems nailing kills while Greninja can take him out fairly early due to him being light. Greninja and Pikachu both have excellent recoveries as well so they're probably going to struggle to gimp each other unless Pikachu gets lucky with a Thunder gimp.

I think the Pikachu MU is slightly on Greninja's favor myself.

I agree. Greninja is the only speed-type character that can KO easily. The drawback is that you have to commit more. Pikachu not only has to be able to pressure Greninja, but also have to mind game him as well. This is hard considering that Greninja is about as fast as Pikachu, while also posses sign a superior projectile and over father reach, along with more KO options. However Pikachu does a a better combo game, so one he gets he'll probably get 30-40 average if he knows what he's doing. Overall I'd say the match-up is 60/40 in Greninja's favor.

 

[KERO]

Well either way, it seems to be more accurate than the in-game values because based on our Uthrow kill % from KERO`s thread, Greninja dies at 153% while Sheik at 148%, so Greninja is definitely heavier than Sheik.

While it's true that Greninja is definitely heavier than Sheik, just because he dies later than Sheik from Uthrow doesn't exactly prove it. Otherwise, D3 would be leagues heavier than any other character lol. Characters with higher gravity like D3 and Fox can actually survive longer against vertical kills than floatier characters considered slightly heavier than them. Conversely, I found that these same characters also die earlier from horizontal hits, though (Fox dying earlier than Puff from horizontal hits assuming he doesn't jump forward from them for example) while floatier characters live longer.

Edit: Oh, yeah, back from my small hiatus of being sucked into Hyrule Warriors.

 

[FullMoon]

Edit: Oh, yeah, back from my small hiatus of being sucked into Hyrule Warriors.

Yeah I saw you playing HW a lot while I was adding people to play with in Anther's Ladder. I saw you playing Hyrule all the time and I was like "Hyrule Warriors claims another victim." =P

 

[KERO]

Yeah I saw you playing HW a lot while I was adding people to play with in Anther's Ladder. I saw you playing Hyrule all the time and I was like "Hyrule Warriors claims another victim." =P

Man, I'm just gonna be full out gone during February with all the Majora's Mask stuff going on. Really don't think I'll be making that February 10th date for the edge Shadow Sneak percents <.<, Especially with Apex, my own tourney, and everything else going on as well.

But yeah, I finally buckled down and gave Nintendo money for all the DLC haha. Then I proceeded to get sucked in for a week as I remembered how much fun the game was. It's a shame that Smash had to come out right after Hyrule Warriors, though. I've barely managed to finish OR, have not even scratched the surface of Captain Toad and Persona Q, and I still have an ever growing backlog to deal with.

 

[Spirst]

I'm so excited for Majora's Mask 3D. That's going to be one of the few games to get me off of Smash.

 

[MartinAW4]

I see, making the gif go in slow motion, it seems that for that to work the opponent needs to be pretty much inside Greninja when we use the b-air. The hitbox on it is pretty weird.

I tested the Bair some more and I noticed that the strong fixed knockback occurs when we land the first or second hit of Bair (or both) without landing the third one and without landing on the ground. You don`t need to be close to the opponent for it to work. If we land as we fast fall out of Bair`s third hit, the opponent will be dragged down with us instead of being sent away, similar to the Uair spike. So this means that while we can`t Bair spike off stage, we should be getting the strong knockback every time while edgeguarding if we fast fall out of the last Bair hit. It`s easy to do if you aim at the lower half of the opponent`s body and fast fall immediately when you hit.

While it's true that Greninja is definitely heavier than Sheik, just because he dies later than Sheik from Uthrow doesn't exactly prove it. Otherwise, D3 would be leagues heavier than any other character lol. Characters with higher gravity like D3 and Fox can actually survive longer against vertical kills than floatier characters considered slightly heavier than them. Conversely, I found that these same characters also die earlier from horizontal hits, though (Fox dying earlier than Puff from horizontal hits assuming he doesn't jump forward from them for example) while floatier characters live longer.

Edit: Oh, yeah, back from my small hiatus of being sucked into Hyrule Warriors.

You`re right. I was only focusing on the Sheik/Greninja weight comparison, so I didn`t notice that King Dedede who is lighter than Bowser according to the Weight Rankings list in WiiU/3DS Smash Academy survives Greninja`s Uthrow longer.

Though there seems to be a lot of confusion about how weight works in the Smash community.
The Smash Wiki (linked source in the Smash Academy Weight Rankings thread) defines weight as:
"Weight is a measurement of how much a character can resist knockback."
It also says that knockback depends on weight and gravity, which they define as:
"Gravity is a measure of how fast a falling character reaches their maximum falling speed. A character with high gravity does not necessarily have a fast falling speed; they simply reach their top falling speed faster."
And they also say that:
"The vertical knockback suffered by characters is based on both their weight and their gravity, with higher-gravity characters taking slightly more knockback; horizontal knockback is unaffected."

This is where the confusion starts. The Wiki uses the same list as the Weight Rankings thread where Bowser and DK are heavier than DDD. There isn`t any gravity data on SSB4, but if we take the values from SSBB, we can see that the Gravity of Bowser is the highest, followed by DDD and DK has the lowest gravity among these 3. And since higher gravity means earlier vertical kills, it makes sense that Bowser dies sooner than DDD despite being heavier. But unless DK`s gravity got increased in Smash 4 it doesn`t make sense that he also dies sooner than DDD since he not only has more weight, but lower gravity as well.

And then there is the Smashpedia article ( http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight ) which defines Weight as:
"Weight is a measure of how far a character can be knocked back horizontally by an attack, if damage is held constant. It also affects vertical knockback in concert with falling speed."
So accoring to them, it is falling speed and not gravity that influences vertical knockback. They also have a different weight list where King Dedede (2. highest fall speed in the game) is the heaviest character in the game followed by DK (14. highest fall speed) and Bowser third (33. fastest fall speed), just like in your Uthrow kill % list. There are some differences between their weight list and your kill % list, but overall they are much more similar than the Weight Rankings list here on Smashboards.

So basically weight is very complicated and I`m glad we have a kill % thread which we can use to reliably find out the kill % against every character in the game instead of having to rely on a weight list.

 

[bc1910]

I don't have enough experience in the MU to say who wins out of Greninja and Pikachu (on paper I think it's 50-50 which is really good considering people are putting Pikachu in the top 3), but I do think it's pretty incredible that Greninja is one of the only characters who even stands a chance at gimping Pikachu's recovery due to Hydro Pump. Once you take Pikachu's double jump he'll probably be forced to use Quick Attack to recover unless he's high enough to use Skull Bash, which isn't too hard to edgeguard with Fair or Bair since it's a lot like a slower Fox/Falco Side B. Most characters have practically no answer to Quick Attack due to its great hitboxes and spurts of invincibility, but Greninja can hit Pikachu fairly easily using Hydro Pump and force him away from the ledge. PIkachu's terrible air speed during free-fall means that he probably won't recover if he gets hit with Hydro Pump during Quick Attack. Having a legitimately great way to gimp what some are calling the best recovery in the game is nothing to sneeze at.

I definitely think Hydro Pump is an incredible tool despite the nerfs because it's still a no-risk, high reward edgeguard that completely ruins some recoveries (such as Ness') and trashes others pretty badly. The difference now really is that you have to take their double jump before Hydro Pumping them, whereas before it didn't really matter because the pushback was so high. Hydro Pump now requires you to use the opponent's Up B momentum against them, which is still really effective. I honestly believe Greninja's edgeguarding ability is among the best in the game, right up there with characters like Pikachu and Jigglypuff because not only is his edgeguarding effective, he doesn't put himself in danger when he does it.

Also, I'd just like to add that I think Greninja's ability to kill with Up Throw is really important. If you look at the top characters in the game, almost all of them have a way to get kills from a throw, which is really important in this game since grabbing is very powerful in general. Up Throw might not start killing until 150-160% in most cases but that's still tons earlier than most characters can hope to get kills from a throw, and I think it's a fantastic safety net for Greninja if he's struggling to land the killing blow.

 

[FullMoon]

I still can't see how the R.O.B MU can be one of Greninja's easier ones, everytime I go against the robot he just keeps me away and when I do manage to get in his face I often get grabbed for my troubles. His gyros are also super in the way most of the time and I always get hit by them no matter what I do.

If it keeps up like that I think R.O.B is going to become my most dreaded MU, up there with Fox though in his case it's because I have little practice against him. Even Sheik and Sonic give me an easier time than him.

 

[KERO]

I still can't see how the R.O.B MU can be one of Greninja's easier ones, everytime I go against the robot he just keeps me away and when I do manage to get in his face I often get grabbed for my troubles. His gyros are also super in the way most of the time and I always get hit by them no matter what I do.

If it keeps up like that I think R.O.B is going to become my most dreaded MU, up there with Fox though in his case it's because I have little practice against him. Even Sheik and Sonic give me an easier time than him.

I'm pretty sure our jab can outrange his grab, so when you're in his face, just stay out of grab range. These days, I'm starting to see a Nair just outside of their shield range can really cause some players to panic. They either try to grab (which will whiff), roll away (giving you more stage control) or drop their shield (will get them hit by jab). Jab is a fantastic pressure tool against R.O.B. in general actually.

Also, from what I've seen, our shurikens sometimes(?) outright cancel his Gyro. Otherwise, it's completely possible and advised to just grab the Gyro and start camping while being wary of side-b. Once you have his Gyro, there's really not much he can do to approach you or camp you, and if he puts you in a bad situation, you can escape really easily. I've also personally just started throwing the Gyro straight up, going in and seeing if I can't get some hits on him (either by camping or approaching), then going back and catching the Gyro just to throw it back up. Also, as stated, he has so few options when he's above us. It's basically free Uairs/Usmashes or at least a jab.

Just gonna throw this out there, but on Wi-Fi the MU is probably a lot harder tbh. R.O.B. has a ton of long lasting hitboxes compared to our more precise ones, and even a little lag can get us hit by his Gyro and lasers. Offline, I feel it's definitely in our favor.

One more thing: At around 110%+, R.O.B. will be looking for grabs for that Uthrow. Avoid this at all costs. We have plenty of tools to outrange his grab that cannot be punished on shield: Jab, Dtilt, Bair, Fair, Whiffed Nair to jab, standing grab, etc.,

I think the more you play the MU, the more you'll slowly understand it. Hell, I got wrecked pretty badly by a random Link main a few tourneys ago even though we supposedly win that MU (humorously enough, I had issues with Link back in Brawl as an Oli main haha). Likewise, some MKs got destroyed by Olimar back in Brawl because the MK simply did not know how to really fight Olimar, but once they learned, they realized that MK had an advantage in the MU. A lot of MUs can be like that I suppose.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I still can't see how the R.O.B MU can be one of Greninja's easier ones, everytime I go against the robot he just keeps me away and when I do manage to get in his face I often get grabbed for my troubles. His gyros are also super in the way most of the time and I always get hit by them no matter what I do.

If it keeps up like that I think R.O.B is going to become my most dreaded MU, up there with Fox though in his case it's because I have little practice against him. Even Sheik and Sonic give me an easier time than him.

I know what you mean, ROB has been my most hated MU since Smash 4 3DS was released. I always find it hard to get in his face and deal damage on him without taking alot from getting up in his face. His gyros, grabs and aerials all feel too safe honestly, not to mention you cant even grab his gyro without taking damage, which i don't get.

Also, is it just me, or has anyone noticed that on the Conquest forum, this time its: Round guys vs. Bad Guys, and for some reason Greninja is listed under bad guys, lol. He's basically grouped up with Wario, Bowser and Ganondorf. It'd be one thing if that was Mewtwo, he could work, but i don't see how Greninja's a bad guy in anyway.

 

[Spirst]

I know what you mean, ROB has been my most hated MU since Smash 4 3DS was released. I always find it hard to get in his face and deal damage on him without taking alot from getting up in his face. His gyros, grabs and aerials all feel too safe honestly, not to mention you cant even grab his gyro without taking damage, which i don't get.

Also, is it just me, or has anyone noticed that on the Conquest forum, this time its: Round guys vs. Bad Guys, and for some reason Greninja is listed under bad guys, lol. He's basically grouped up with Wario, Bowser and Ganondorf. It'd be one thing if that was Mewtwo, he could work, but i don't see how Greninja's a bad guy in anyway.

I guess I can kinda see it. In the anime, a Greninja appeared under the ownership of Ninja Riot, an antagonist. Other than that, Greninja is pretty neutral in my eyes.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I guess I can kinda see it. In the anime, a Greninja appeared under the ownership of Ninja Riot, an antagonist. Other than that, Greninja is pretty neutral in my eyes.

Ah, that makes sense. I could see it too, given he's a pokemon, but i don't inherently see him as a bad guy right off the bat. That being said, with nothing to tell me otherwise before hand, i could easily assume Sheik and Snake to be antagonists just from how they look, lol. : P

 

[AkashicSword]

Anyone see that Greninja named AkashicSword play at Paragon? Sheesh.

Hey guys, Akashic here. Thanks for the hype. Pikachu is a matchup I have little experience with, but after talking to Riddle, and the like, we all figure it's actually bad for Ninja.

1. Pikachu has aerial dominance period. As a vortex character, you have to play guesswork as to when to dodge attacks and when to purely DI or counterattack. Greninja's counter attack game in the air is weak, leaving me pretty helpless after being grabbed. He racked more damage than Diddy does anytime.

2. Pikachu does move too low to the ground after landing to hit with grab or FSmash, this I have tested extensively, and it boggles me, but it's legit. His air approaches become almost entirely safe on us.

3. Greninja lacks safe kills. Most things people lsit as "safe" and "true" simply aren't, and Pikachu's floatiness gets him out of what really is.

I think it's winnable, it's not Falcon (which I say is 9:1 his favor, Immortality played me nine games and won 8) but I'd say it's 7:3. Pikachu has safer kills, and safe approaches. The only move we can reliably punish is D-smash. We have to outplay and read him.

John's corner: I also hadn't slept in 28 hours at that point. Perks of being chauffeur and host.

I did get to MM Xaltis and 2-0 him, that was hype. Top 48 was a nice place to finish, but Florida thinks I should've been top 16, and I agree, but I choked where it mattered, that's life.

Anyway, I say all that tired as hell to say this, if you guys ever wanna talk MU or improve your game, hit me up. I'm glad to help

Greninja is totally neutral in my opinion BTW. He could be a bad guy if you take the reasoning that he's a ninja, and is trained with the intent of killing, but it's a stretch.

 

[FullMoon]

Ninja Riot does reform by the end of the movie though, and there's another heroic Greninja in the anime that belongs to the ninja character, Sanpei.

Basically Greninja is just as moral as it's owner.

But really now, there's no way the Falcon MU is 90:10 to his advantage, there's just no way. And I don't think Greninja is at a disadvantage against PIkachu either. I've played a lot of both MUs and they all felt pretty even, I even felt like I had an advantage against Pikachu in some cases.

 

[AkashicSword]

Have you fought a good Falcon, like a really good falcon? I am finding an alt for it. He's 100% safe on shield since his jab can be done after everything, and he can dash grab any whiff, even a jab or a nair for goodness sake. It's dumb. He can combo Ninja from zero to 80 guaranteed, and can make one good read afterwards for a kill. If you hand a monkey the remote can have it mash A, Ninja can't beat Falcon, 90:10 is gracious as all get out.

 

[Funkermonster]

Ya think Greninja will be in Pokken Tournament? Considering he's a ninja and appears in Smash? I'd be very surprised if he, Zard, or Pikachu didn't make it in.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ AkashicSword
I agree that the Pikachu matchup is in his favor. His moves are so much safer than ours and he doesn`t even lack kill power.
For example his sweetspot Fsmash kills 10% sooner than Substitute which is our strongest move, and it has less end lag and more range than our Fsmash. His Usmash also kills at decent percents, is easier to land than ours since it also works against grounded opponents and it`s much less punishable. Even his Dash Attack is a kill move at around 135% if all else fails.

His recovery also rivals ours in safety, but his Up B is actually pretty gimpable. We don`t need to aim Hydro Pump at him, we just need to predict when he will use his Up B and then create a wall of water with Hydro Pump separating him from the stage. And because of how fast his Up B is, he will usually hit the water and get pushed away in free fall state.

Pikachu is also very light, so we can kill him with Uthrow at reasonable percents and if he makes a mistake, he won`t take our smashes or Shadow Sneak very well. But landing a kill move other than Uthrow against him is very hard when most of his moves are unpunishable.

Captain Falcon is also one of our toughest matchups, but I`m not sure whether it`s as bad as 9-1 in his favor or about the claim that he has a guaranteed 0-80% combo against us, since we can escape almost every combo with Shadow Sneak. But I haven`t played a really good Falcon yet, so who knows. Which character are you choosing as your secondary against Falcon?

And what do you think about the Sheik, Fox and Peach matchups? I find Sheik and Fox to be harder matchups than Falcon, and I have problems against Peach as well. Her Fair has too much range, priority and power for how little start-up it has. Water Shuriken works well against her, but I can`t approach her in the air, and even on the ground she is not easy to beat.

 

[Coffee™]

Hey guys, Akashic here. Thanks for the hype. Pikachu is a matchup I have little experience with, but after talking to Riddle, and the like, we all figure it's actually bad for Ninja.

1. Pikachu has aerial dominance period. As a vortex character, you have to play guesswork as to when to dodge attacks and when to purely DI or counterattack. Greninja's counter attack game in the air is weak, leaving me pretty helpless after being grabbed. He racked more damage than Diddy does anytime.

2. Pikachu does move too low to the ground after landing to hit with grab or FSmash, this I have tested extensively, and it boggles me, but it's legit. His air approaches become almost entirely safe on us.

3. Greninja lacks safe kills. Most things people lsit as "safe" and "true" simply aren't, and Pikachu's floatiness gets him out of what really is.

I think it's winnable, it's not Falcon (which I say is 9:1 his favor, Immortality played me nine games and won 8) but I'd say it's 7:3. Pikachu has safer kills, and safe approaches. The only move we can reliably punish is D-smash. We have to outplay and read him.

John's corner: I also hadn't slept in 28 hours at that point. Perks of being chauffeur and host.

I did get to MM Xaltis and 2-0 him, that was hype. Top 48 was a nice place to finish, but Florida thinks I should've been top 16, and I agree, but I choked where it mattered, that's life.

Anyway, I say all that tired as hell to say this, if you guys ever wanna talk MU or improve your game, hit me up. I'm glad to help

Greninja is totally neutral in my opinion BTW. He could be a bad guy if you take the reasoning that he's a ninja, and is trained with the intent of killing, but it's a stretch.

I'm from sfl, didn't make it to Paragon...but congrats dude! I didn't get a chance to see any matches but from the looks of it it sounds like you did great. Would have been nice to see another Greninja player doing work. Which Pika did you lose to? Kipa? If so..I was literally going through that matchup with him a few days before Paragon.

As for Pika it's definitely not a favorable matchup but you have to camp him to make it even worth playing. You can punish his landings pretty decently but for the most part you're right about your reads having to be fairly spot on. It's hard to land kills as well. Uthrow and SS are gonna be the go to kill moves here. If Pika doesn't gimp or read you he actually struggles to kill Greninja, you might just need to play out the matchup more.

Quick attack is most overpowering thing in the matchup imo. You can charge WS and get punished, space Nair wrong and get punished, misspace an Upair followup and get punished etc.....it's dumb.

 

[Ekans647]

SO does Greninja struggle in general with speed characters? Is it because he has to commit more?

I think they grouped Greninja in with the villains because he's naturally a dark type. But Conquest has some pretty wide picks sometimes.

 

[Mocha]

Hey guys, Akashic here. Thanks for the hype. Pikachu is a matchup I have little experience with, but after talking to Riddle, and the like, we all figure it's actually bad for Ninja.

1. Pikachu has aerial dominance period. As a vortex character, you have to play guesswork as to when to dodge attacks and when to purely DI or counterattack. Greninja's counter attack game in the air is weak, leaving me pretty helpless after being grabbed. He racked more damage than Diddy does anytime.

2. Pikachu does move too low to the ground after landing to hit with grab or FSmash, this I have tested extensively, and it boggles me, but it's legit. His air approaches become almost entirely safe on us.

3. Greninja lacks safe kills. Most things people lsit as "safe" and "true" simply aren't, and Pikachu's floatiness gets him out of what really is.

I think it's winnable, it's not Falcon (which I say is 9:1 his favor, Immortality played me nine games and won 8) but I'd say it's 7:3. Pikachu has safer kills, and safe approaches. The only move we can reliably punish is D-smash. We have to outplay and read him.

John's corner: I also hadn't slept in 28 hours at that point. Perks of being chauffeur and host.

I did get to MM Xaltis and 2-0 him, that was hype. Top 48 was a nice place to finish, but Florida thinks I should've been top 16, and I agree, but I choked where it mattered, that's life.

Anyway, I say all that tired as hell to say this, if you guys ever wanna talk MU or improve your game, hit me up. I'm glad to help

Greninja is totally neutral in my opinion BTW. He could be a bad guy if you take the reasoning that he's a ninja, and is trained with the intent of killing, but it's a stretch.

Good effort, and props for some Greninja rep! Have any videos/replays saved by any chance?

I have no idea what the Pikachu MU is like for Greninja, but as a pocket user of both characters, I can see Pikachu being really annoying for Greninja. As far as Pikachu aerial juggling you, what can Greninja do in this situation? I feel that he has trouble landing at times, not necessarily from off-stage, but just in general. I understand Nair is an important move for Greninja, but isn't that a bit punishable to land with? Mix ups aside?

Plus as you said, getting that kill move is the other tricky part. Like, what move have you guys killed with the most/reliably as Greninja? I'm trying to understand this character more, but it's been quite a struggle so far.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Ya think Greninja will be in Pokken Tournament? Considering he's a ninja and appears in Smash? I'd be very surprised if he, Zard, or Pikachu didn't make it in.

I hope Greninja is in it. That'd be awesomeeee.

...But it's an arcade game, sooo... I probably wouldn't have the opportunity to play it anyway. :/

 

[Ekans647]

Good effort, and props for some Greninja rep! Have any videos/replays saved by any chance?

I have no idea what the Pikachu MU is like for Greninja, but as a pocket user of both characters, I can see Pikachu being really annoying for Greninja. As far as Pikachu aerial juggling you, what can Greninja do in this situation? I feel that he has trouble landing at times, not necessarily from off-stage, but just in general. I understand Nair is an important move for Greninja, but isn't that a bit punishable to land with? Mix ups aside?

Plus as you said, getting that kill move is the other tricky part. Like, what move have you guys killed with the most/reliably as Greninja? I'm trying to understand this character more, but it's been quite a struggle so far.

Greninja is blessed with great KO power in comparison to his speed. I often use F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Smash and Substitute to get KO's on-stage. Most of time I get KO's by edge-guarding with aerials and Hydro Pump or using Hydro Pump in an edge-guard situation to set up for a KO with U-Smash. It can be hard to earn to KO with Greninja at first, but one you know and get comfortable with his options, you shouldn't have to much trouble.

 

[Mocha]

Greninja is blessed with great KO power in comparison to his speed. I often use F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Smash and Substitute to get KO's on-stage. Most of time I get KO's by edge-guarding with aerials and Hydro Pump or using Hydro Pump in an edge-guard situation to set up for a KO with U-Smash. It can be hard to earn to KO with Greninja at first, but one you know and get comfortable with his options, you shouldn't have to much trouble.

I don't usually kill early with him, unless I get a lucky sweet-spotted Upsmash or a Hydro Pump gimp. For me, it requires a bit of patience to get the KO move, and not rush for the kill, because I find several of his moves rather punishable (though it could be very well that I'm not spacing/using his moves right).

That being said, I would like to put an effort to improve with him, at least to the point I'm comfortable with his moves, and when to use them.

 

[Spirst]

I'd been doing better with netting KOs recently. Something I'm really liking is uthrow>follow them with empty hops and read their DI by fastfalling>dash sweetspot usmash. Shield drop>fsmash works quite well too though the hitbox appears on frame 13 so it may not be the fastest. I've gotten into reading spotdodges by holding down the charge after conditioning them to get used to spotdodging.

Spaced SH fairs have also been working well. Offstage, against characters that need a specific angle to recover (like Rosalina), I'd sometimes been trying offstage shadow sneaks though it's EXTREMELY risky.

 

[FullMoon]

The problem with Greninja is trying too hard to score a kill and ending up becoming a lot more predictable with it. You shouldn't try to desperately fish for KOs, you need to keep your cool and patiently wait for an opportunity to get the needed kill, which I admit is not easy when the match is being particularly intense. Not only that but you need to mix-up a lot if you want to actually get good hits and combos in.

By the way I bet you guys never scored a kill like this before =P

Funny that just after the Captain Falcon/Pikachu discussion here I end up fighting them left and right today.

 

[MartinAW4]

The problem with Greninja is trying too hard to score a kill and ending up becoming a lot more predictable with it. You shouldn't try to desperately fish for KOs, you need to keep your cool and patiently wait for an opportunity to get the needed kill, which I admit is not easy when the match is being particularly intense. Not only that but you need to mix-up a lot if you want to actually get good hits and combos in.

By the way I bet you guys never scored a kill like this before =P

Funny that just after the Captain Falcon/Pikachu discussion here I end up fighting them left and right today.

Nice, an Usmash spike kill. Those are very rare, I only remember getting one so far.

 

[wizardto1]

I have no idea why this week's conquest considers Greninja a bad guy.

 

[FullMoon]

It's even weirder if you consider that Greninja is in it and Dedede and Bowser Jr aren't.

By the way, can we get a guaranteed b-air when we steal the ledge grab from someone else? I feel like that can be a way of getting early kills since b-air's knockback is almost completely horizontal, so that can mess up characters with poor vertical recoveries, put them into unfavorable positions for a hydro gimps or just outright get us the kill.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

It's even weirder if you consider that Greninja is in it and Dedede and Bowser Jr aren't.

By the way, can we get a guaranteed b-air when we steal the ledge grab from someone else? I feel like that can be a way of getting early kills since b-air's knockback is almost completely horizontal, so that can mess up characters with poor vertical recoveries, put them into unfavorable positions for a hydro gimps or just outright get us the kill.

Given how quick his Bair comes out, i think it'd be pretty hard to react to if you steal the ledge and instantly input the attack. Unless the person has a counter, i don't think you'll have to worry about that.

 

[Lavani]

I haven't had ledge trump bair not work, I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed.

I haven't really been going for ledge trumps after it was discovered buffered ledge jump/roll/attack beats it out though.

 

[FullMoon]

I see, I often end stealing the ledge from my opponent when I fail to gimp them and I never really tried attacking them while they were thrown off the ledge. Something to keep in mind for later then.

 

[AkashicSword]

@ AkashicSword
I agree that the Pikachu matchup is in his favor. His moves are so much safer than ours and he doesn`t even lack kill power.
For example his sweetspot Fsmash kills 10% sooner than Substitute which is our strongest move, and it has less end lag and more range than our Fsmash. His Usmash also kills at decent percents, is easier to land than ours since it also works against grounded opponents and it`s much less punishable. Even his Dash Attack is a kill move at around 135% if all else fails.

His recovery also rivals ours in safety, but his Up B is actually pretty gimpable. We don`t need to aim Hydro Pump at him, we just need to predict when he will use his Up B and then create a wall of water with Hydro Pump separating him from the stage. And because of how fast his Up B is, he will usually hit the water and get pushed away in free fall state.

Pikachu is also very light, so we can kill him with Uthrow at reasonable percents and if he makes a mistake, he won`t take our smashes or Shadow Sneak very well. But landing a kill move other than Uthrow against him is very hard when most of his moves are unpunishable.

Captain Falcon is also one of our toughest matchups, but I`m not sure whether it`s as bad as 9-1 in his favor or about the claim that he has a guaranteed 0-80% combo against us, since we can escape almost every combo with Shadow Sneak. But I haven`t played a really good Falcon yet, so who knows. Which character are you choosing as your secondary against Falcon?

And what do you think about the Sheik, Fox and Peach matchups? I find Sheik and Fox to be harder matchups than Falcon, and I have problems against Peach as well. Her Fair has too much range, priority and power for how little start-up it has. Water Shuriken works well against her, but I can`t approach her in the air, and even on the ground she is not easy to beat.

I'm looking into Rosa for Falcon. I love her air spacing and kill power. Her side-B is a super slept on disruption too.

The combo game Falcon has on us is god tier. It takes a smart player to do so, but any smart Falcon can quickly wreck our lives. I was told, "just don't get grabbed." Pretty much our biggest fear is a halfway decent grab, and Falcon's is amazing. So we tend to get bodied.

Shiek is a patient game. Stay out of forward tilt range since we eat those terribly. Nair beats her aerials, but you need to space it very carefully. Bair is a powerful option too. If you can make the read, Fair will eat through all of her aerials too. Same for Dair, but it's risky. Use F-smash for spacing on the ground, and try to avoid eating needles.

Fox is the same as above actually. Verbatim. Don't eat lasers. Aerial space. Avoid Up-tilt range. Let Fox approach you, it's easier. Up-tilt rocks his world. Go to platforms.

Peach. Shield. Seriously. All of her aerials are super punishable, it is just that no one I know is patient, and they eat the last Fair always. Shuriken ruins her life. Don't go for counter hits, just wait and punish whiffs, you'll win. Fair has horrible cooldown, so F-smash her after every one.

I'm from sfl, didn't make it to Paragon...but congrats dude! I didn't get a chance to see any matches but from the looks of it it sounds like you did great. Would have been nice to see another Greninja player doing work. Which Pika did you lose to? Kipa? If so..I was literally going through that matchup with him a few days before Paragon.

As for Pika it's definitely not a favorable matchup but you have to camp him to make it even worth playing. You can punish his landings pretty decently but for the most part you're right about your reads having to be fairly spot on. It's hard to land kills as well. Uthrow and SS are gonna be the go to kill moves here. If Pika doesn't gimp or read you he actually struggles to kill Greninja, you might just need to play out the matchup more.

Quick attack is most overpowering thing in the matchup imo. You can charge WS and get punished, space Nair wrong and get punished, misspace an Upair followup and get punished etc.....it's dumb.

I agree. I was able to make game four comeback because I noticed he couldn't kill either. I just needed more experience. I re-watched my match, and saw all of my awful tech errors. I should've easily beat Kipa, but I really choked.

Also, I know you Coffee, I was actually a day one Greninja, who quit him after patch, only to get bodied by one in For Glory. (guess who?) I raged and counter picked Ninja with Ninja, and proceeded to kick ass. We went about 50-50, and I saw the potential I had left behind, and went back to the grind. I'd say your either the best or second best Ninja in Florida. We have to settle that debate soon, since everyone is sticking me with that title.

 

[Coffee™]

I'm looking into Rosa for Falcon. I love her air spacing and kill power. Her side-B is a super slept on disruption too.

The combo game Falcon has on us is god tier. It takes a smart player to do so, but any smart Falcon can quickly wreck our lives. I was told, "just don't get grabbed." Pretty much our biggest fear is a halfway decent grab, and Falcon's is amazing. So we tend to get bodied.

I don't think Falcon's that bad that you really need to find another character to handle him. (if you do though, try Pika. Utilt >>>> Falcon) For the most part he plays the same game as Greninja but hits harder. As long as you play patiently, and don't commit much you should come out on top. Let Falcon make the commitments then punish. The advice you got is probably the best. Falcon doesn't really have much on Greninja until he gets that grab, then he just does stuff. Play it kinda like a fast paced Ice Climber matchup.

On a random note. Greninja would probably be pretty good against ICs if they were in this game. WS + Dash Grab & Uthrow = lol.

I agree. I was able to make game four comeback because I noticed he couldn't kill either. I just needed more experience. I re-watched my match, and saw all of my awful tech errors. I should've easily beat Kipa, but I really choked.

Also, I know you Coffee, I was actually a day one Greninja, who quit him after patch, only to get bodied by one in For Glory. (guess who?) I raged and counter picked Ninja with Ninja, and proceeded to kick ***. We went about 50-50, and I saw the potential I had left behind, and went back to the grind. I'd say your either the best or second best Ninja in Florida. We have to settle that debate soon, since everyone is sticking me with that title.

Now that you mention it I do remember you dude lol. Definitely some fun games, I was like "Finally a decent Greninja on For Glory" xD. Glad I could steer someone back to the way of the Ninja.

We should play more though. I learned quite a few things from our matches.

 

[MartinAW4]

I`d love to see those matches when you decide to play. Do you have a way to record and upload them here?