Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Lavani]

You can paint the comparison that Greninja and Sheik are both ninjas that run fast, but that's more or less where it ends. When you start looking at their toolkits and frame data, you realize Greninja commits much more heavily to everything, has terrible options out of shield, and has fairly gimmicky B moves outside of Water Shuriken that can be effective when used as a surprise, but are heavily punishable when your opponent expects it.

Not that I think Greninja is a bad character, but when you compare him to the top 10 or so it's not hard to see why he's seldom used.

most best Greninja I've seen so far https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PCQhoBDwYI

Ah, the joys of 1.0.0.

 

[Spirst]

RIP IN PEACE TOP TIER GRENINJA

SEPTEMBER 13 2014-NOVEMBER 18TH 2014

NEVER FORGET

 

[FullMoon]

RIP IN PEACE TOP TIER GRENINJA

.... Rest in peace in peace?

 

[MartinAW4]

.... Rest in peace in peace?

Yeah, the nerfs were that bad.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I'm kinda glad nobody is REALLY good with the 'ninja.Makes him easier for me to get behind,playing an underdog.

Btw,are any of you guys bronies?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Frankly I think people are being babies about Greninja's nerfs. There are a lot worse cases of nerfs.

 

[MartinAW4]

Frankly I think people are being babies about Greninja's nerfs. There are a lot worse cases of nerfs.

For example?

 

[Golden Sun]

Frankly I think people are being babies about Greninja's nerfs. There are a lot worse cases of nerfs.

Sure Greninja is still great and hard to go up to, but the cancels have been removed, like how Sonic still has his spindash cancel but isn't taken away.

 

[FlareHabanero]

For example?

Well Kirby between the first Super Smash Bros. game and Super Smash Bros. Melee is your classic example. Literally everything was stripped away from Kirby, the range, power, speed, all gone, which crippled Kirby in a game like Super Smash Bros. Melee since it makes him easy to be combo'd to death and conversely couldn't pull off combos himself. This is a sharp contrast to his appearance in Super Smash Bros where he is among the best characters in the game, to the point where his up tilt alone is considered arguably the best attack in the series.

For another example, there's Captain Falcon between Melee and Brawl. He's arguably the most nerfed character in the game, both from a combination of varies nerfs to his moves to make them more limited and the general physics themselves making Captain Falcon having a much harder time to combo and approach.

In comparison, Greninja is a lot more tame, and technically Greninja did gain some new tools from the supposed nerfs.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think anybody has been nerfed as badly as Greninja did, but I do agree that people tend to really exaggerate his nerfs.

Edit: Nevermind I didn't see the post above. So yeah.

 

[MartinAW4]

Well Kirby between the first Super Smash Bros. game and Super Smash Bros. Melee is your classic example. Literally everything was stripped away from Kirby, the range, power, speed, all gone, which crippled Kirby in a game like Super Smash Bros. Melee since it makes him easy to be combo'd to death and conversely couldn't pull off combos himself. This is a sharp contrast to his appearance in Super Smash Bros where he is among the best characters in the game, to the point where his up tilt alone is considered arguably the best attack in the series.

For another example, there's Captain Falcon between Melee and Brawl. He's arguably the most nerfed character in the game, both from a combination of varies nerfs to his moves to make them more limited and the general physics themselves making Captain Falcon having a much harder time to combo and approach.

In comparison, Greninja is a lot more tame, and technically Greninja did gain some new tools from the supposed nerfs.

I meant in patch 1.0.4. Greninja was nerfed by far the hardest despite being far from broken or even the best character in the game (I think Rosalina, Diddy and Sheik were slightly better and only Rosalina`s nerfs were significant while Sheik`s weren`t that bad and Diddy only got his Popgun hitstun cancelling removed and his Jab hitbox was actually buffed).

On the other hand, Greninja got 5 of his best moves nerfed pretty badly (Usmash, Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, Uair, Fair) while the only buffs he received were to 2 of his least used moves: Dsmash and Shadow Sneak (which lost its landing lag cancelling properties, so it is arguable whether it was even buffed overall, but I think it is better now).
Before, Greninja was a character with amazing mobility and amazing moves, but now he just has amazing mobility and all of his moves are pretty average except from Jab and Bair which are still great and Ftilt which is still bad.

Complaining in itself is not a problem as long as it is justified, which I definitely think it is in this case. Everything won`t be always great and if there is a problem, it is important to talk about it as well. That is the only way to let Sakurai know what he did wrong and help him fix it in the next patch.

 

[FullMoon]

Guys

Spoiler

Why don't these exist? Rock Star Greninja is just too cool to not exist.

And the dorkiness has never been so real with Doctor Greninja. The Water/Dork Pokémon has just stepped up his game and nothing can beat it anymore.

But seriously I would throw so much money at Game Freak and Nintendo if it meant Rock Star Greninja becoming official.

 

[Golden Sun]

Guys

Spoiler

Why don't these exist? Rock Star Greninja is just too cool to not exist.

And the dorkiness has never been so real with Doctor Greninja. The Water/Dork Pokémon has just stepped up his game and nothing can beat it anymore.

But seriously I would throw so much money at Game Freak and Nintendo if it meant Rock Star Greninja becoming official.

lmao

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Guys

Spoiler

Why don't these exist? Rock Star Greninja is just too cool to not exist.

And the dorkiness has never been so real with Doctor Greninja. The Water/Dork Pokémon has just stepped up his game and nothing can beat it anymore.

But seriously I would throw so much money at Game Freak and Nintendo if it meant Rock Star Greninja becoming official.

I had seen the maid Greninja, but not the others. o_O These are nice.

 

[Sneak Frog]

I adore the maid one the most

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Off topic, but Game Theory on Smash Bros! If you're interested, here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_2OPd25FOw

 

[KERO]

Edit: So, I know that the discussion was prompted by someone posting a video of 1.0.3 Greninja and that we generally have moved past the nerfs, but I'll go ahead and leave this here since I still feel it may have some amount of relevance, especially in regard to not being too negative about the character. Note: I made everything below this prior to reading the post that prompted the discussion.


Look, I love all you guys, but are we seriously still on about the nerf? It happened, and there's as much a chance of Sakurai undoing those nerfs as there is of Game Freak making a Pokemon MMO. It's not gonna happen, and there's no use crying over it. Rather than debating on whether Greninja is still viable or whatever, why don't we show that he's viable? Look what the Japanese found over the course of two days. Look at the work MartinAW4 has put in cataloging all of Greninja's combos. Look at the work Lavani has put in to record our frame data. We all need to keep working to bring as much out of Greninja as we can, to tap into whatever potential the character still has. Focusing on a character's weaknesses is a trap that sucks all the interest in a character away from anyone potentially curious about maining the character in question as well as people already maining the character.

The Greninja we knew in 1.0.3 is dead, may as well have never existed. This is the character we use now. Top 10 material? Not at all, but I would argue he is in the top 20 for sure, and I personally think that the character has a lot of room to develop, but we need to keep breaking down and dissecting him in order to foster that development. You may think that I'm being overly optimistic and unrealistic, but optimism drives production, and if the other option is discussing the nerfs nearly two months after they happen, I think I'll choose the optimism route.

All of this said, I just want to say I really appreciate all of you that have stuck around after the nerfs (as well as those that picked him up post-patch). You guys are the ones that are truly passionate about the character, and if we can keep working at it, collecting data, discussing match-ups, and sharing techniques, I feel that by the end of the game's life, we will be able to witness Greninja's true potential. No matter how great or underwhelming that may be, I'll be satisfied as I have seen too many characters abandoned before they were really figured out, and the one thing I do not want to ever happen is for Greninja to suffer that same fate. But we gotta stay focused, and most importantly, positive.

*Hops off soap box* Or maybe I'm just blowing smoke lol. If you guys disagree, that's cool. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

In other news, Shadow Sneak kill percents from the center of FD have been posted.

 

[MartinAW4]

Well said KERO. You`re right, complaining at this point won`t help anything. And if Sakurai isn`t willing to improve Greninja with a patch, it`s up to us to improve it by finding alternatives to its lost tools, towards which you`ve also greatly contributed with your Kill Percents thread. Now that I think about it, almost every nerf brought with it some positive aspects:

Fair - the reduced knockback helped increase its combo-ability. We can now combo it into Jab, Dtilt or Grab for much longer at low percents and I`m not sure whether combos like Fair -> Fair or Fair -> Dash Attack -> Fair were even possible before the patch. It kills around 13% later now, but that damage can be dealt with a single extra hit from Fair, which could come from a combo that wasn`t even possible before. So overall, I think I like the new Fair better than the old one.

Uair - just like Fair, it only got its knockback reduced while the damage stayed the same which allows us to do the Uair -> Uair combo more easily. The other change was that it is easier to escape the last hit because of the weaker downwards pull, but this also allows us to perform the Uair spike more easily and the smaller ground bounce from the weakened Uair spike allows us to combo it into Fsmash or the newly discovered FF Bair -> charged Fsmash during the forced get-up.

Hydro Pump - the reduced pushback from the water makes gimping some characters and killing off the top with it much harder, but the characters who are weak to it can still be gimped with it just as well as before and the ones that aren`t were edgeguarded more effectively with Bair even before the nerf. It also still sets up into Usmash very well if you hit them during their Up B and they get sent upwards.

Usmash - the 10 frames of extra end lag, reduced sweetspot hitboxes and reduced sourspot damage made us play more carefully with more precision using our Usmash and lead to a much greater variety in the usage of our moveset. Instead of having the same answer for vertical hits, horizontal hits, landing punishes and roll punishes, we now use Usmash only for anti-air punishes when we`re sure that we can land the sweetspot hit. And for that use, Usmash is just as good as it was before, because the sweetspot`s damage and knockback stayed the same and the end lag doesn`t matter if we get the kill. But now we also use Shadow Sneak for punishing landings which kills sooner from the edge with the backwards kick than sweetspot Usmash did off the top and Dsmash for punishing rolls which also kills sooner than sourspot Usmash did pre-patch. So the Usmash nerf helped us find better alternatives in situations when it shouldn`t have been used in the first place.

Water Shuriken - this was in my opinion the most severe nerf we`ve gotten and the only one where I can`t find anything positive about it. But I guess it was a problem when a character like Greninja got a projectile that could outspam characters like Link or DHD, so this one was probably justified. At least when facing DHD, Link or any other projectile user, we won`t be the ones blamed for projectile spam.

So overall, Greninja can still perform almost as well as it did before, it just requires more precision and knowledge of its entire moveset and combos. This is a character I can definitely see improving over time as people learn to use him optimally and master the advanced techniques and combos like Perfect Pivoting, Utilt -> Uair spike combos and the new meteor Dair/Uair spike -> FF Bair -> Fsmash combo or any other ones that might be discovered eventually.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I love jumping toward someone and reverse charging Shuriken.Sometimes they roll right in front of cause they didn't expect it.

Also,I have trouble doing the Uair spike.I know you have to fast fall as soon as the first hit connects,but I usually end up just not doing the final hit,and still do the semi,which results in them bouncing up.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Hey, 'sup

Just for you to know : there will be a Greninja in the TOP 6 of BEAST V (biggest tournament in EU)

It starts right now on : (can't post a link cause I haven't enough message on Smashboard) it's on vgbc's twitch.

And he ****in' play with a wiimote + nunchuk !

 

[Lavani]

Discovery of the day, and something I'd been suspecting for awhile: Greninja's blind spots when facing right are Z axis related. Flat Zone X, Duck Hunt, and PAC-Land (Wii U) and Flat Zone 2 (3DS) are actually 2D stages with no Z axis, and for fsmash vs idle opponents playing on these stages fixes the blind spot. Omega versions of these stages share this property.

EDIT: Fair's blind spot also appears to be smaller on flat stages.

EDIT2: Might actually be gone entirely, jesus the last active frame has hitboxes practically on Greninja's face

 

[Spirst]

That's awesome. Do you know why it's only for the right side and not the left too?

While we lose the blindspots on smashes due to stages with no Z-axis, we also lose the viability of SS. Not that SS is something you should be throwing around anyway but it's easier to note on the flat stages due to the lack of dynamic lighting/shadows and textures that veil the shadow more. Oh well though, I'll take functioning hitboxes.

 

[Lavani]

My main theory is that even though Greninja's front always faces the camera (animations "flip" instead of rotating 180°), the hitboxes on his attacks might still rotate instead. So while fsmash always starts its swing from the foreground visibly, the hitboxes might come from the background when he faces left, and that just happens to hit characters more reliably.

I don't have any real way to test this though, if I had the Wii U version I'd try some stuff with spot dodges to verify.

 

[Funkermonster]

Just came back from tournament I attended yesterday, it went well! Used Greninja at least once for all but one set (using Duck Hunt instead), and placed 7th out of 42 people this time (last time I placed 5th out of 37). I eventually was knocked out by 2 good Wario and Mario players though, so those are matchups I definitely want to work on.

This is also the first time I've seen other s at the tournament, last time I remember being the only one who used him. For me personally, this might actually be a good thing

 

[BlinkIV]

There's a few of us out there who play him in a competitve environment.

Also regarding the perfect pivot post. I made a seperate tag so I can mess around with it. It's yielding some...interesting results. I haven't really played with my "crew" in a while, but I plan to try it against them this coming Wednesday/Thursday/Friday (Shockwave, streamed by Tourney Locator). It just comes down to me attempting to master the skill and be 100% consistent with it. I'm stoked to find more stuff out!

Also @ Lavani
I did the Dtilt > footstool > dair > fair last night. I did it for you, haha.

@ Funkermonster
Congrats man! Keep it up! =)

 

[FullMoon]

You guys and your tournaments that I can't go to because the only tournaments here in Brazil happen mostly in another state.

By the way, asking again but... Any tips for dealing with Fox?

 

[Funkermonster]

Speaking of Brazil, Nintendo announced that Brazil's enormous taxes run them out of town and they'll no longer sell any games or consoles in your country anymore. I don't live there, but I can already feel bad for some Brazilians who'll miss out on all the fun, and it doesn't look like your tournament scene is gonna grow any bigger because of that.
Sorry.....

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah that's old news already. Thanks for the sympathy though.

 

[Jaguar360]

Well, for the Pokemon Showdown players here, Greninja is officially banned from OU. Bittersweet because even though it was rightly deserving of the ban, I'm going to miss using him in standard play. Time to start using it more in Ubers/Doubles/Triples I guess. Poor froggy.

 

[FullMoon]

I haven't cared about the OU metagame ever since I learned that I can use Darkrai in Smogon Doubles.

 

[Jaguar360]

I haven't cared about the OU metagame ever since I learned that I can use Darkrai in Smogon Doubles.

Yeah I was amazed by all the stuff that's allowed in Smogon Doubles. Love that Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile and Deoxys are legal! Good thing that Dark Void is banned. Doubles is strange though; I'm going to have to have more commitment to understanding it if I want to enjoy it to its fullest.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Well, for the Pokemon Showdown players here, Greninja is officially banned from OU. Bittersweet because even though it was rightly deserving of the ban, I'm going to miss using him in standard play. Time to start using it more in Ubers/Doubles/Triples I guess. Poor froggy.

Was gonna come here and say, but you beat me to to punch. Oh well. :/ Haven't really cared about the Pokemon metagame for a while, but it still makes me sad.

 

[Gunla]

Good night, sweet frog prince.

At least I can count on him in the Battle Maison and he'll be in my Ubers team.

 

[KERO]

Great job Pika Kong! Wario is probably a really awkward MU to play since he's not only heavy but floaty as well, and that bike certainly isn't doing us any favors haha.

As mentioned, looks like the frog has ascended to the plane of the gods. Fortunately, unlike Mega Mawile, it seems he actually has a bit of a niche, anti-leading both Deoxys-A and Deoxys-S with Taunt and Shadow Sneak shenanigans.

Really enjoyed the comparison write-up btw MartinAW4, brought up a lot of good points that should be noted. Nothing is ever truly black and white after all.

 

[Lavani]

So I completely forgot I could just pause and rotate the camera, it was pretty easy to confirm my theory.

Facing right:

Facing left:

I'm guessing this has more to do with the other characters rather than being Greninja's fault (Shulk has similar issues with his ftilt), but there you go. Awfully silly that a character's facing is enough to make the difference between a sword going behind them and going straight through the middle of their body, but who am I to question Sakurai?

 

[BlinkIV]

Based sakurai!

So I got to play Eazy yesterday. Randomly ran into him in FG rofl. We played secondaries mainly and did a bo3 with our mains. Shiek (I believe he mains), against Greninja. I somehow managed to win, but I tried some new stuff that works good against Shiek. F-Tilt as an anti air to Shieks approach, and dropshield jab helps against her shield pressure. We can jab before she tosses a 2nd f-tilt on shield.

 

[MartinAW4]

Based sakurai!

So I got to play Eazy yesterday. Randomly ran into him in FG rofl. We played secondaries mainly and did a bo3 with our mains. Shiek (I believe he mains), against Greninja. I somehow managed to win, but I tried some new stuff that works good against Shiek. F-Tilt as an anti air to Shieks approach, and dropshield jab helps against her shield pressure. We can jab before she tosses a 2nd f-tilt on shield.

Good to know. Maybe I`ve been underestimating Ftilt too much. It always seemed to me as an almost strictly inferior Fsmash, with only slightly lower start-up, end lag and range at the cost of dealing less than half the damage you`d get from Fsmash and not being a disjointed hitbox. That`s why whenever I could have used Ftilt, I rather used Fsmash instead. But if you`re saying that it works well against Sheik, I`ll have to give it a try.

 

[Ekans647]

I'm back! Sorry I haven't posted in a while, but (again) my notifications were't being sent. I'll try my best to be active here.

So what the big deal about these nerfs? The nerf was in late October. We've adapted now. The entire roster is somewhat balanced with the exception of that ****ing monkey…

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I'd fallen off playing before the patch so the nerfs weren't that noticeable.It was somewhat the same with the new P:M update,my playing made the nerfs not very bad for me.
Course I was a newb at that game,so...

 

[BlinkIV]

Good to know. Maybe I`ve been underestimating Ftilt too much. It always seemed to me as an almost strictly inferior Fsmash, with only slightly lower start-up, end lag and range at the cost of dealing less than half the damage you`d get from Fsmash and not being a disjointed hitbox. That`s why whenever I could have used Ftilt, I rather used Fsmash instead. But if you`re saying that it works well against Sheik, I`ll have to give it a try.

Yeah, at first glance it seems very weak. But it's actually pretty good. I use it for anti airing and punishing approaches mainly. Or sometimes you can use it to punish "leap" moves. Like Diddy's Monkey Flip for example. I want to find out more applications for it, but it has good reach. So maybe we can use it to punish other characters who do moves that extend hurtboxes?