Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Coffee™]

Reply in response to comments in matchup thread:

He's still a tournament viable character. By no means is he not anymore. I agree that he was top tier before the patch, but it was just a degenerate style. The notable Greninjas dropped him after the patch, including Nietono from Japan. People just aren't used to his style and can't comprehend how to play him "correctly" to make him tournament viable these days. There are matches were we do see Greninja lose, or not place high enough. But just give it time, the results will change in given time.[/quote/]

What do you mean by degenerate style?

Nietono is one of Japans best players and has been playing since Melee I believe. You can't simply throw out people aren't comprehending his style, (people that are mostly likely better players than yourself) when there are legitimate reasons as to why people are steering away from him. Amsa is the only notable Japan player I've heard of that has chosen not to drop him and you can see from results that he isn't placing that high.

I wouldn't say he gets outclassed by the other top tiers at all. He actually does pretty well against Diddy Kong, and doesn't have TOO much of a hard time against Shiek. Same thing for Rosalina/ZSS. Maybe it's MU wise, or me being relatively good at the game and figuring out what to do, idk.

I actually think he beats Diddy. He does however lose to Shiek, Yoshi, Ness and Sonic for sure. Rosa and ZSS are probably even. With that said...how can you really consider the character to be tourney viable with that much losing/even matchups to popular characters?

Despite his main approaches being dash grab, and SHFFL Nair. Those are 2 REALLY good things he's got going, and besides he's got tons more we haven't even BEGUN to utilize yet. Have you ever done SHFFL Fair > Grab? Or what about sliding F-tilt? Or how about using WS to bait your opponents approach? Even if it hits their shield, what can we do after it? Bait the roll and grab/dsmash/upsmash? Or we can roll up and just grab for free! He's got the tools to stay in top 10, we're just waiting for the person that can do that. =)

Yes those 2 moves are good but they cannot carry his whole kit, they aren't that good. Fair is a mediocre move in general in neutral. It's only good for followups and retreating approaches. Ftilt is strictly a punish move. Neither of these moves help address Greninja's main problems. WS is dealt with in the same way people deal with Diddy and his Bananas. It's not as free as you're suggesting.

Yeah, that`s how I see it as well. I can usually hold my own against most characters, but once the opponent switches to a high tier, especially Sheik, Yoshi, Fox and Sonic, I feel I have to work so much harder and outplay them heavily just to keep up with their standard game. Their movement speed matches or surpasses ours and their moves have less start-up lag than Greninja`s so I`m basically forced to play one step ahead of them if I want to land a hit.

Nail on the head right there.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'll have a full reply to this momentarily, going to work.

 

[KERO]

Wow, great combo. That was Nair -> Uair spike -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Dair -> Footstool -> FF Bair -> charged Fsmash
But it`s not the Uair spike -> Bair that forces them into a get-up, it is Dair -> Footstool -> Bair which only works at specific percents, so it probably won`t be very practical in a real match.

I know what the "combo" was, but what gave me the Uair spike to Bair force get-up idea was the fact that he was able to use Bair to force that get-up. I did some testing before I played Fullmoon, and sure enough, if they don't tech the Uair spike, we can Bair them and force a get-up from it before the bounce from the failed tech ends (even as early as around 80ish percent from a Utilt), forcing the get-up.

 

[MartinAW4]

I know what the "combo" was, but what gave me the Uair spike to Bair force get-up idea was the fact that he was able to use Bair to force that get-up. I did some testing before I played Fullmoon, and sure enough, if they don't tech the Uair spike, we can Bair them and force a get-up from it before the bounce from the failed tech ends (even as early as around 80ish percent from a Utilt), forcing the get-up.

But you don`t get a "forced" get-up after the Uair spike. You can test it against lv.1 bots. When you do meteor Dair -> FF Bair, the CPU gets up automatically as soon as possible and always the same way which makes it a forced get-up. However after an Uair spike -> FF Bair, the CPU will stay on the ground as long as is wants to just like when it gets knocked down by any other move and they can choose to get up with a get-up attack or a roll to prevent your Fsmash follow-up.

Edit:
@ BlinkIV
Thanks for all the great advice against Sheik. I just don`t understand why your reason for not using Dtilt is that it has high start-up lag when it is our second fastest move after Jab, starting on frame 5 while Ftilt which you reccomended starts on frame 10 and also has more end lag than Dtilt.

My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves.

Once I land a hit, I can combo her pretty well since I tested all the combos in the combo thread against Sheik, so I know exactly which combos are available at which percents. But landing that hit is very hard against a character with such great mobility, attack speed and a faster projectile that outranges ours.

 

[KERO]

No, I tested it for sure on a Control dummy in training. I also just tested on a level 1. The forced get-up doesn't depend on the move used to get them on the ground, just that you hit them while they are bouncing on the ground. For some characters, it's harder to do this than others, but I'm definitely getting consistent results with Sheik with Utilt->SHFF Uair (lower percents)/FF Uair (higher percents)->SHFF Bair->Fsmash.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

No, I tested it for sure on a Control dummy in training. I also just tested on a level 1. The forced get-up doesn't depend on the move used to get them on the ground, just that you hit them while they are bouncing on the ground. For some characters, it's harder to do this than others, but I'm definitely getting consistent results with Sheik with Utilt->SHFF Uair->SHFF Bair->Fsmash.

At what percents are you doing this?

 

[KERO]

At what percents are you doing this?

Good point. About 80% to 120% on Sheik.

 

[Lavani]

Random thought that's probably been brought up before, but since dtilt>bair true combos starting around 60% or so, dtilt>footstool>stuff should be doable too, no?

This is something I should probably try incorporating.

 

[KERO]

Random thought that's probably been brought up before, but since dtilt>bair true combos starting around 60% or so, dtilt>footstool>stuff should be doable too, no?

This is something I should probably try incorporating.

Dtilt>Footstool? Please, do go on. That would be incredible. That would lead right into a Bair with no fear of teching.

Also, Uair spike to Bair force get-up is definitely easier on some characters than others. Bowser Jr. and heavies are especially easy for obvious reasons while someone like Mac doesn't even bounce if he lands on his back.

 

[Lavani]

I'm not entirely sure if dtilt>footstool would work for force get-ups, I'm really bad at trying to do that anyway (doesn't help that I'm trying on Sheik though) and the footstool launches Greninja pretty high up.

I had something more like this in mind:

 

[BlinkIV]

Reply in response to comments in matchup thread:

What do you mean by degenerate style?

Nietono is one of Japans best players and has been playing since Melee I believe. You can't simply throw out people aren't comprehending his style, (people that are mostly likely better players than yourself) when there are legitimate reasons as to why people are steering away from him. Amsa is the only notable Japan player I've heard of that has chosen not to drop him and you can see from results that he isn't placing that high.


I actually think he beats Diddy. He does however lose to Shiek, Yoshi, Ness and Sonic for sure. Rosa and ZSS are probably even. With that said...how can you really consider the character to be tourney viable with that much losing/even matchups to popular characters?

Yes those 2 moves are good but they cannot carry his whole kit, they aren't that good. Fair is a mediocre move in general in neutral. It's only good for followups and retreating approaches. Ftilt is strictly a punish move. Neither of these moves help address Greninja's main problems. WS is dealt with in the same way people deal with Diddy and his Bananas. It's not as free as you're suggesting.

1 - Perhaps degenerate isn't the correct word. What I meant is, people will play a character that is currently "broken" then drop the character right after a nerf happens. Despite Nietono being one of japans best players, he wants to win like everyone else, so he feels Greninja isn't the answer for him. So he went to the character placing really well, and has the best neutral through the cast, Shiek. In no way am I saying I'm a better player, or don't even travel to that part. Amsa, sure. Notable player, but how long has he played Smash 4? Remember Melee is his main game, and he's also dropped Project M. If you want to see him do well, give him some time to get on the level of the top players.

2 - Yeah I agree he beats Diddy, but he does not lose to Ness. Yoshi/Sonic, eh sure. I'll have to play more against them to get a feel for the MU's and learn them, I'm all about that. We'll discuss that more whenever the right time comes in the MU discussion thread.

3 - Fair is a mediocre move in general in neutral? What. No offense but I disagree with that. If I'm able to consistently wall out opponents with that move, and unable to get punished even if they shield. That tells me one thing: The move is super good. F-tilt isn't a punish move imo. I also use it for spacing purposes to mix it up, and it works wonders against some characters! WS isn't the best projectile, but it's definitely better than some others. I don't treat like Diddys bananas at all, mind telling me why the comparison? I'm interested.

All in all, it's more or less we're judging Greninja just from the game being out a few months (wii u). We should let time pass, grind it out and see where we'll end up. It also might be you and I having different mindsets? Regardless..good read.

@ MartinAW4
"Thanks for all the great advice against Sheik. I just don`t understand why your reason for not using Dtilt is that it has high start-up lag when it is our second fastest move after Jab, starting on frame 5 while Ftilt which you reccomended starts on frame 10 and also has more end lag than Dtilt.

I use F-Tilt instead just because of range. That's..the only reason. Shiek can't grab OoS it.

My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves.

I feel that we have the answer against Shiek, but we haven't really found what it is yet. I've got a gut feeling we can do this!

Once I land a hit, I can combo her pretty well since I tested all the combos in the combo thread against Sheik, so I know exactly which combos are available at which percents. But landing that hit is very hard against a character with such great mobility, attack speed and a faster projectile that outranges ours.

I'll have to get some of that from you, I normally don't do "this combo at this %" I kinda just go with what flows, ya dig? haha

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I'm still trying to decide between Greninja and Lucario...it's so difficult because they're BOTH good! >.<

 

[KERO]

I'm still trying to decide between Greninja and Lucario...it's so difficult because they're BOTH good! >.<

Greninja needs more representation. And he's a ninja. And he's a frog. Also, we have cookies.

More seriously, though, it really depends on your preferred playstyle. Like, if both feel natural to you, perfect. Co-main them or main one and second the other. I'd personally go with the second option as you'll want a good solid character as a base rather than two mediocre characters.

I honestly don't know a thing about Lucario's playstyle. However, Greninja is one: super duper precise. Like, you do not have a move you can throw out and hope your opponent rolls into it. You do, however, have plenty of moves where you can predict a roll, and time your move with the roll's end. About half of his moves have hitboxes for a scant two frames and the other half don't last much longer, so you need to be certain that when you throw out a move, it will hit or not get you hit. Greninja is two: always thinking. You cannot go into any situation blindly. You need to constantly be thinking of what your opponent might be thinking, watching for patterns (in both the opponent and you), and have a plan for if your immediate action succeeds, and about two for the outcomes if the action fails. You must also be able to effectively use each of Greninja's moves. Everything in Greninja's toolset has its own uses.

While all this may seem intimidating (Greninja takes a ton of dedication), there is a reward for it all. We play one of the few characters in the game with what is probably a good MU against Diddy Kong, has fairly evenish MUs against most of the top tiers (except Ness imo, but BlinkIV seems to disagree with my in that regard, and Sonic). I've also heard Sheik isn't too hot for Greninka, but I don't have too much experience with that MU oddly enough, but that Diddy MU is still huge. Also, Greninja has so much untapped potential. I expect him to be constantly developing over the course of Smash 4's metagame. We're figuring out new things with him every day, and while the nerfs may have turned some away, I believe that we are overcoming our initial disappointments and realizing that Greninja is definitely a very viable character. I've personally managed to place 2nd in a 40-person Ohio tourney and 4th in a 50-person KY tourney. Yeah, MW and all, but I can proudly say I went sole Greninja for both of these tourneys.

Again, it's your choice, but we'd definitely be happy to have you along!

(Also, I really need to stop giving this same speech all the time to simple questions >.>)

 

[joaoTforce]

hey guys I have a question: do you guys ever do b-reversals with greninja's shuriken? is it useful at all?

 

[KERO]

Btw, thank you Lavani for the advice. I had no idea his Fsmash could be canceled that quickly. I'll definitely give that move the respect it deserves in the future.

About Hydro Pumping Shuttle Loop, are you sure he doesn't grab the edge too quickly? He can do during the initial strike even, so unless he starts it really far below, not sure if Hydro Pump could get him (although, as you may have seen in the videos, when I did get it, it led to a free Bair kill).

As for Fsmash... yep. I'll admit that I use Fsmash more than I should, probably because I didn't realize how nice of a move it was until recently. The more I begin to learn when and when not to use it, I'll gradually start using it less overall.

Btw, some other MK things I noticed: we can't punish a whiffed dash attack from a defensive position (roll, spotdodge), but he can punish ours if he's in the same situation. Our jab clanks MK's Fsmash for no reason. I believe our jab also clanks with their DA, which puts MK in a situation if we clank when he's in range of another jab. No reason we should get hit by Bair off stage. Greninja's recovery is excellent. Jab either clanks or hits through tornado (I forget which). Shadow Sneak out of tornado is impossible.

 

[Coffee™]

1 - Perhaps degenerate isn't the correct word. What I meant is, people will play a character that is currently "broken" then drop the character right after a nerf happens. Despite Nietono being one of japans best players, he wants to win like everyone else, so he feels Greninja isn't the answer for him. So he went to the character placing really well, and has the best neutral through the cast, Shiek. In no way am I saying I'm a better player, or don't even travel to that part. Amsa, sure. Notable player, but how long has he played Smash 4? Remember Melee is his main game, and he's also dropped Project M. If you want to see him do well, give him some time to get on the level of the top players.

Before the nerf Greninja still wasn't the best character. He was really good but definitely not broken. The majority of Greninja's nerfs were actually fine. The one that really ended his shot at being a "competitively viable" character was the lag added to Water Shuriken. That move was the foundation of his approach game. Nerfing it caused a lot of issues for his kit in general.

As for Amsa, you're right. It's still early in the games lifespan and Amsa is generally an outliner for whatever character he chooses to play. I'm interested in seeing how he progresses.

2 - Yeah I agree he beats Diddy, but he does not lose to Ness. Yoshi/Sonic, eh sure. I'll have to play more against them to get a feel for the MU's and learn them, I'm all about that. We'll discuss that more whenever the right time comes in the MU discussion thread.

I played Shaky's Ness for hours these last few days. Trust me. The character loses to Ness. Greninja's kit simply does not play well against him. Fair destroys your standard Nair approach and WS while good in the matchup has it's limitations as Ness can weave around it pretty easily as he's generally in the air the entire match. He also kills earlier than Greninja and has guaranteed strings out of Dthrow at a fair amount of percents. I could go on if you want about it but it's definitely not a matchup I see being even or in his favor. Feels more like a 6:4 for Ness to me.

Yoshi I still need more experience in as well but from what I've played so far I can tell that a Yoshi playing aggressively applies a ton of pressure that Greninja will have trouble dealing with. I think Ness does better than Yoshi though so it's probably not what you'd really consider a "bad" matchup but I don't think it's even either. Sonic is dumb... Before the patch this matchup was probably even. But the lag on WS which was Greninja's main counter to Sonic's approaches really sealed the deal for him here.

3 - Fair is a mediocre move in general in neutral? What. No offense but I disagree with that. If I'm able to consistently wall out opponents with that move, and unable to get punished even if they shield. That tells me one thing: The move is super good. F-tilt isn't a punish move imo. I also use it for spacing purposes to mix it up, and it works wonders against some characters! WS isn't the best projectile, but it's definitely better than some others. I don't treat like Diddys bananas at all, mind telling me why the comparison? I'm interested.

Fair is mediocre because you can't really use it as a SH approach. If short hopped it has to be used as a retreating aerial or it can be easily punished on shield by most character's decent OoS options. If your opponent's aren't punishing it then I'd blame that on a lack of experience with their options towards it. Ftilt is also punishable as hell on shield. It's good for spacing if you know you're gonna hit the opponent but if shielded it's far from safe. WS is pretty amazing honestly, I just wish they didn't add that much lag to it from the patch. In reference to Diddy's Bananas I meant how opponents deal with the move will be similar to what is done when Diddy throws a banana at you. The options most characters have in that situation are generally the same.

All in all, it's more or less we're judging Greninja just from the game being out a few months (wii u). We should let time pass, grind it out and see where we'll end up. It also might be you and I having different mindsets? Regardless..good read.

Don't get me wrong. I love the character and will continue to play him and use him in tourney (provided Mewtwo isn't amazing). I just don't see a reason to main him competitively as I feel he will always have these glaring weaknesses. But yeah definitely nice having some discussion about this kinda stuff.

We should play some time btw!

I use F-Tilt instead just because of range. That's..the only reason. Shiek can't grab OoS it.

You can get Bouncing Fished or Dash Attacked though.

My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves.

Jab is really good against Shiek. It helps a lot in the situations when you land with your Nairs in about her Ftilt range. It's faster than her Ftilt as well and I believe either the same frame or 1 more than her Jab. Most Shieks aren't using Jab that much though and generally won't through it out in that scenario anyway so abuse that.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

I think using Perfect pivot, Sliding Dtilt or DSmash, and foxtrotting. Will help Greninja movement options against sheik. We have to use all of Greninja's speed options. I think mastering these advanced techniques with Hydro Pumps gimps will help out immensely.

Also lets not forget Shadow sneak hitstun cancel from sheik's FSmash.

 

[MartinAW4]

Good point. About 80% to 120% on Sheik.

Yes, this is what caused the problem. I didn`t realize that the meteor effect has to reach a certain strength to make it force a get-up. I tested it against King Dedede who is more resistant to the Uair spike than Sheik and I tested it at lower percents too. So while the Dair meteor (which is much stronger then the meteor from Uair) was strong enough to force a get-up, the Uair spike was too weak and that`s why I thought it didn`t work. I retested it just now with Dedede at 90% and the Uair spike really does force a get-up just like you said.

Despite this, because of how hard Uair spikes and Dairs against opponents lying on the ground are to perform, I don`t see much practical use in the footstool -> Dair -> Bair -> Fsmash or Uair spike -> Bair -> Fsmash combos.
Though I do like the Dair follow-up after a footstool which seems to be unavoidable and truly combos into Fair at mid-high % when it causes a ground bounce.
The Dtilt -> Footstool combo that Lavani posted also looks really cool. But I`m not sure if Dtilt -> Footstool is inescapable because Dtilt causes very low hitstun, so they might be able to airdodge before you reach them.

 

[Spirst]

Also lets not forget Shadow sneak hitstun cancel from sheik's FSmash.

I've played against pretty good Sheiks a number of times and the issue with that is that while in works in isolated tests, having that kind of reflexes mid-game can be hard considering that there isn't a large telegraphed animation beforehand unless it's charged. It will require very fine-tuned reflexes for the input to be done on time. Shadow sneak canceling in general strikes me as less useful than something like Rush canceling. It's great when it works and you're able to punish the opponent for the multi-hit but the fact that's it not instant and has, according to the frame data thread, 66f of cooldown makes it situational. It works best when you're canceling a longer multi-hit like Sheik's ftilt chain/Mega Man's dash attack or something telegraphed like Ganon's choke.

 

[MartinAW4]

I've played against pretty good Sheiks a number of times and the issue with that is that while in works in isolated tests, having that kind of reflexes mid-game can be hard considering that there isn't a large telegraphed animation beforehand unless it's charged. It will require very fine-tuned reflexes for the input to be done on time. Shadow sneak canceling in general strikes me as less useful than something like Rush canceling. It's great when it works and you're able to punish the opponent for the multi-hit but the fact that's it not instant and has, according to the frame data thread, 66f of cooldown makes it situational. It works best when you're canceling a longer multi-hit like Sheik's ftilt chain/Mega Man's dash attack or something telegraphed like Ganon's choke.

That`s what I also thought until I realized that I often find myself in situations (especially against Sheik) when I know I will get punished because I can`t shield in time due to being stuck in end lag of a missed move, frame trapped or for whatever other reason. And in that case, the only thing left for me to do is mash side B to at least escape her Fsmash if she tries to use it.

Another example when SS cancelling is easy to use is when paralyzed by ZSS to punish her Fsmash if she decides to use it instead of a grab. When paralyzed, you know a punish is coming and you can`t do anything to prevent it, but you can at least punish her if she makes the wrong choice.

So while you`re right that it is very hard to use SS in reaction to being hit by a fast move such as Sheik`s Fsmash, it can still be used effectively if you can predict a punish in advance.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Happy New Years to the few, the proud, the 1.0.4 Greninja mains/seconds!

Decided to go ahead and release a little bit of the data I've collected on Shadow Sneak kill percents in the thread as a small gift. It's definitely a little different from testing the vertical kill moves, and I forgot to change the bolded percents (Fox and Bowser should have the bolded percents now), but I might have it done by the tenth hopefully (I'm basically performing a total of sixteen tests on each character+Shulk's arts+Miis).

Also, as for Greninja's up-b "bug," it works with any windbox (just tested with Ike's Tempest). It's not Greninja specific, and I don't believe it's a bug (except for perhaps how large the window is). I know it happened to Kirby, MK's Tornado, and Oli's Up-B back in Brawl if the platform under them disappeared during each move's grounded ending lag.



In regards to Pikachu/Greninja, I don't really know much about Pikachu, but Greninja's weaknesses I feel are a poor shield game/defensive game in general (he lacks any decent oos options because his Nair comes out slowly, and his standing grab comes out on frame 14. Can do Shadow Sneak oos oddly enough, though, but you can't hold the shield while moving the shadow unless you do a specific tech), and a lack of effective options against aerial approaches (most of his moves cover horizontal and vertical distance well enough, but he has a 45 degree blindspot outside of Fsmash and Fair, both of which are notable commitments compared to say Utilt or Dtilt or jab). Greninja also has a bit of trouble killing reliably in some cases (something I am trying to find ways around that via my kill percent charts to spread aware of some of Greninja's more obscure kill options) and doesn't tack on damage amazingly well.

On the other hand, Greninja is phenomenal against more grounded characters, and in general has fantastic range to keep them in the position you want them in. His mobility guarantees that you will also be able to get where you need to be as soon as needed. I mean, we're looking at 6th best air mobility (if Brawler is included and without modifications), 4th fastest walk speed (beaten only by Marth/Lucina and Fox), 6th fastest running speed (we beat Sheik!), 3rd fastest falling speed, the 4th fastest fast fall speed, and one of the largest perfect pivots in the game (tied with Sonic and Fox actually). This means that Greninja potentially has the best overall mobility in the game outside of Mii Brawler. This gives him extremely good zoning abilities as well and a fantastic chase game.

Finally, one of the biggest aspects of Greninja play is precision. When you make one move, you need to be at least three moves ahead in your mind, having a back-up plan for if the move fails and a definite plan for if your strategy is succeeding. If you go in without a plan, you will suffer greatly for it. Greninja takes a lot of dedication now. None of his moves could really be considered "bad" (no, not even Dair), but at the same time, he doesn't have one move you can really rely on for most situations. You need to constantly be aware of all the tools in Greninja's toolbox and all their uses for any particular situation. While this does give the frog the advantage of being able to do better against the likes of Diddy or Sheik than a lot of characters, at the same time, he has very few match-ups that are definitively easy match-ups for him (only Mac and Puff come to mind for me). He still does suffer against some characters (I strongly believe Ness may very well be his worst MU), but I feel that Greninja is an extremely adaptable character once you learn what he is capable of.

Basically, tl;dr: Greninja struggles against aerial characters and characters that can outrange him in general (the latter of which there are very few of), has a bad shield game, and requires a lot of precision and dedication. On the other hand, all of his moves have their uses meaning he has very few "outlier" match-ups, does decently enough against top tiers (imo), has insane mobility, and honestly, if he feels good, use him. I personally feel he's the closest to Melee that this game gets, even though I don't play Melee competitively much haha. Idk if what I said really works for Pika, but that's just my own experience here in the MW, and I didn't really see anyone else replying, so I decided to give my two cents.

Also, just realized you were Technical Chase haha. Man, I'm tired....

May as well mention that I feel that Greninja is horrifically difficult to play online, but that might just be me =/ Wi-Fi even irritated me back when I played Oli in Brawl because the only way to get anything accomplished was to play a scrubby Wi-Fi Oli.

Oh you're from Kentucky aren't you? I remember you from some School is in Session events if my memory serves me correctly. Either way, thank you for such a detailed reply. I think I'm gonna keep on with him and see how he plays out. He's certainly a blast to play.

I think what I find horribly ironic for me is that pre-patch, there were Greninjas everywhere in Michigan and I couldn't figure out how to play as him at all. Post patch, there's NONE now and NOW I get the character/find him fun. I keep telling the old Greninja mains that he's still extremely solid/capable and they don't believe me.

 

[Spirst]

That`s what I also thought until I realized that I often find myself in situations (especially against Sheik) when I know I will get punished because I can`t shield in time due to being stuck in end lag of a missed move, frame trapped or for whatever other reason. And in that case, the only thing left for me to do is mash side B to at least escape her Fsmash if she tries to use it.

Another example when SS cancelling is easy to use is when paralyzed by ZSS to punish her Fsmash if she decides to use it instead of a grab. When paralyzed, you know a punish is coming and you can`t do anything to prevent it, but you can at least punish her if she makes the wrong choice.

So while you`re right that it is very hard to use SS in reaction to being hit by a fast move such as Sheik`s Fsmash, it can still be used effectively if you can predict a punish in advance.

That much is very true (especially the YOLO part). I just find a cancel to be superior when it has a lot of usage on reaction (like Rush canceling) rather than having to anticipate the read beforehand. If there were earlier intangibility frames rather than it starting at 12f, it would definitely be a lot easier to execute.

 

[MartinAW4]

That much is very true (especially the YOLO part). I just find a cancel to be superior when it has a lot of usage on reaction (like Rush canceling) rather than having to anticipate the read beforehand. If there were earlier intangibility frames rather than it starting at 12f, it would definitely be a lot easier to execute.

Yeah, it`s unfortunate how late the intangibility frames on SS activate. You can see that the SS hitstun canceling works even on moves such as Meta Knight`s Tornado or Drill Attack because the smoke appears, but you get hit again before you become intangible causing you to stay trapped. If the intangibility activated on frame 1, we`d probably be able to escape every multi-hit attack consisting of several weak hits in the game.

Another big drawback of SS is its end lag. Because of how punishable it is if you miss, it is very risky to use for escaping multi-hit moves that don`t allow you to land the SS hit like most Jabs or Utilt combos. Even if you escape the combos, you will just get hit by a harder punish during the SS end lag, so you end up taking more damage than if you stayed in the combo.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly with jabs I kinda prefer to just try to get out of the multi-hit, it happens a lot when I play with Greninja for some reason and usually that allows me to shield and punish with a F-Smash after the last hit. It happened a lot when I played with KERO too.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Check out this crazy stuff.

Check out れ あ's post on Vine!
https://vine.co/v/Op5LZh9vdru

I knew perfect pivot was going to be useful!!!

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Greninja needs more representation. And he's a ninja. And he's a frog. Also, we have cookies.

More seriously, though, it really depends on your preferred playstyle. Like, if both feel natural to you, perfect. Co-main them or main one and second the other. I'd personally go with the second option as you'll want a good solid character as a base rather than two mediocre characters.

I honestly don't know a thing about Lucario's playstyle. However, Greninja is one: super duper precise. Like, you do not have a move you can throw out and hope your opponent rolls into it. You do, however, have plenty of moves where you can predict a roll, and time your move with the roll's end. About half of his moves have hitboxes for a scant two frames and the other half don't last much longer, so you need to be certain that when you throw out a move, it will hit or not get you hit. Greninja is two: always thinking. You cannot go into any situation blindly. You need to constantly be thinking of what your opponent might be thinking, watching for patterns (in both the opponent and you), and have a plan for if your immediate action succeeds, and about two for the outcomes if the action fails. You must also be able to effectively use each of Greninja's moves. Everything in Greninja's toolset has its own uses.

While all this may seem intimidating (Greninja takes a ton of dedication), there is a reward for it all. We play one of the few characters in the game with what is probably a good MU against Diddy Kong, has fairly evenish MUs against most of the top tiers (except Ness imo, but BlinkIV seems to disagree with my in that regard, and Sonic). I've also heard Sheik isn't too hot for Greninka, but I don't have too much experience with that MU oddly enough, but that Diddy MU is still huge. Also, Greninja has so much untapped potential. I expect him to be constantly developing over the course of Smash 4's metagame. We're figuring out new things with him every day, and while the nerfs may have turned some away, I believe that we are overcoming our initial disappointments and realizing that Greninja is definitely a very viable character. I've personally managed to place 2nd in a 40-person Ohio tourney and 4th in a 50-person KY tourney. Yeah, MW and all, but I can proudly say I went sole Greninja for both of these tourneys.

Again, it's your choice, but we'd definitely be happy to have you along!

(Also, I really need to stop giving this same speech all the time to simple questions >.>)

Thanks for the reply. My issue is my indecisiveness: For example, I have hard times picking freaking wow characters because I don't know which one would have the greater benefit with racial abilities and the like, even though there isn't much of a boost in the first place. This decision, Lucario vs Greninja, is also key (kinda) for a project myself and some friends are working on. Maybe I just need to play somebody and have them determine who's better fit? Idk for certain.

 

[Makani]

Oh you're from Kentucky aren't you? I remember you from some School is in Session events if my memory serves me correctly. Either way, thank you for such a detailed reply. I think I'm gonna keep on with him and see how he plays out. He's certainly a blast to play.

I think what I find horribly ironic for me is that pre-patch, there were Greninjas everywhere in Michigan and I couldn't figure out how to play as him at all. Post patch, there's NONE now and NOW I get the character/find him fun. I keep telling the old Greninja mains that he's still extremely solid/capable and they don't believe me.

I live in Michigan and play Greninja, but i'm not a tourney goer (yet) so...

 

[BlinkIV]

Before the nerf Greninja still wasn't the best character. He was really good but definitely not broken. The majority of Greninja's nerfs were actually fine. The one that really ended his shot at being a "competitively viable" character was the lag added to Water Shuriken. That move was the foundation of his approach game. Nerfing it caused a lot of issues for his kit in general.

As for Amsa, you're right. It's still early in the games lifespan and Amsa is generally an outliner for whatever character he chooses to play. I'm interested in seeing how he progresses.

I played Shaky's Ness for hours these last few days. Trust me. The character loses to Ness. Greninja's kit simply does not play well against him. Fair destroys your standard Nair approach and WS while good in the matchup has it's limitations as Ness can weave around it pretty easily as he's generally in the air the entire match. He also kills earlier than Greninja and has guaranteed strings out of Dthrow at a fair amount of percents. I could go on if you want about it but it's definitely not a matchup I see being even or in his favor. Feels more like a 6:4 for Ness to me.

Yoshi I still need more experience in as well but from what I've played so far I can tell that a Yoshi playing aggressively applies a ton of pressure that Greninja will have trouble dealing with. I think Ness does better than Yoshi though so it's probably not what you'd really consider a "bad" matchup but I don't think it's even either. Sonic is dumb... Before the patch this matchup was probably even. But the lag on WS which was Greninja's main counter to Sonic's approaches really sealed the deal for him here.

Fair is mediocre because you can't really use it as a SH approach. If short hopped it has to be used as a retreating aerial or it can be easily punished on shield by most character's decent OoS options. If your opponent's aren't punishing it then I'd blame that on a lack of experience with their options towards it. Ftilt is also punishable as hell on shield. It's good for spacing if you know you're gonna hit the opponent but if shielded it's far from safe. WS is pretty amazing honestly, I just wish they didn't add that much lag to it from the patch. In reference to Diddy's Bananas I meant how opponents deal with the move will be similar to what is done when Diddy throws a banana at you. The options most characters have in that situation are generally the same.

Don't get me wrong. I love the character and will continue to play him and use him in tourney (provided Mewtwo isn't amazing). I just don't see a reason to main him competitively as I feel he will always have these glaring weaknesses. But yeah definitely nice having some discussion about this kinda stuff.

We should play some time btw!

You can get Bouncing Fished or Dash Attacked though.

Jab is really good against Shiek. It helps a lot in the situations when you land with your Nairs in about her Ftilt range. It's faster than her Ftilt as well and I believe either the same frame or 1 more than her Jab. Most Shieks aren't using Jab that much though and generally won't through it out in that scenario anyway so abuse that.

"

Oh my lanta. I do agree on that, the lag on WS kinda..eh. hahaha. I'm kinda interested to see where Amsa takes this game as well. I don't recall him planning to take the game super serious, but it'd be awesome if he did!

It's kinda funny how we disagree! I practice with Awestin's Ness a lot, and you practice with Shaky. So on paper, you'd have the "higher hand" due to Shaky being a really good player, and well known. How do you typically handle Ness' Fair approaches? Granted we can't SHFFL Nair him at all or we get punished. But I know we can constantly swat him out with SH Fair (granted he does a F-air approach), and since he is in the air a lot. It feels a little rough, but I typically wait on stage and punish his landing. Fair also knocks out PKT if he goes for it while you're offstage. Ness' Nair offstage does beat Hydro Pump too so recovering is a little tough, yeah.

Yoshi, yeah. I'm definitely in the same boat as you hahaha. The only experience I get is by playing YellowRello, and he BARELY plays Yoshi on WiFi. He only plays his secondaries. Sonic in general is stupid, that's DEFINITELY not in our favor anymore. I mean, I haven't played StaticManny, or 6WX, or Blue. But I have played against Espy Rose, so I kinda know some stuff, not as much as i'd like though..

PERFECT PIVOT F-TILTS THO (insert joke). But yeah, i'm definitely down to play sometime, just add me and we can play. Maybe tonight when I get off work, or whenever. NNID: BlinkIV

Yeah, I actually got to try that out more. Dropshield jab is gdlk against Shiek, it really helps against her pressure on our shields. We just can't get gung-ho with it though, or else we'd get OoS grabbed lol.

 

[KERO]

Honestly with jabs I kinda prefer to just try to get out of the multi-hit, it happens a lot when I play with Greninja for some reason and usually that allows me to shield and punish with a F-Smash after the last hit. It happened a lot when I played with KERO too.

Because Greninja has such a low landing box, he gets out of a ton of jabs just by SDIing down and shielding. I think the only multi-hit I have yet to escape is Falcon's.

Also @ ZTD | TECHnology , That patch was such a blow to Greninja's usage.... But I'm certainly not giving up on him. I still feel the character has a lot of untapped potential (look at all the crap the Japanese figured out in the past couple days). I really think that Utilt->Uair spike->Bair->Fsmash can be a thing, and from what I've discovered, on floaty characters, weak hit Nair->foostool->Bair force get-up->Fsmash can also work. Glad to see that you're gonna keep working on him. We're happy to have you on board.

 

[BlinkIV]

So with the new japanese tech. Especially the most recent one using Perfect Pivot F-Tilt and Up-tilt. It makes me think, should we change the C-stick to attack to get that? Or should we keep it as smash attacks so we can still get Perfect Pivot D-Smash? It's been a good punish to enemies who do laggy attacks on shield that are spaced. dropshield pp d-smash.

Whatcha think..?

 

[Coffee™]

" It's kinda funny how we disagree! I practice with Awestin's Ness a lot, and you practice with Shaky. So on paper, you'd have the "higher hand" due to Shaky being a really good player, and well known. How do you typically handle Ness' Fair approaches? Granted we can't SHFFL Nair him at all or we get punished. But I know we can constantly swat him out with SH Fair (granted he does a F-air approach), and since he is in the air a lot. It feels a little rough, but I typically wait on stage and punish his landing. Fair also knocks out PKT if he goes for it while you're offstage. Ness' Nair offstage does beat Hydro Pump too so recovering is a little tough, yeah.

Fair is honestly the only problem Greninja as a character has with Ness, but it's a big problem cuz it's his bread and butter move. Greninja has nothing that flat out beats it's disjointed range. For dealing with it I typically stick to the ground in the matchup and try to get into Ness's face to force the fair early enough at a point where I'm close enough to punish. Most of the time I punish with Jab or turn around Jab if he ends up behind me. Jab is nice cuz it's fast and has decent range. Depending on the spacing, you can punish with Fsmash as well. I'm guessing you can try SSOoS as well but I didn't try it out much.


Lmk if you need to discuss the matchup in detail. I can go through more.


PERFECT PIVOT F-TILTS THO (insert joke). But yeah, i'm definitely down to play sometime, just add me and we can play. Maybe tonight when I get off work, or whenever. NNID: BlinkIV


Lol, sounds good. I'll add you when I get home today.

Yeah, I actually got to try that out more. Dropshield jab is gdlk against Shiek, it really helps against her pressure on our shields. We just can't get gung-ho with it though, or else we'd get OoS grabbed lol.

Lol it's actually amazing against most the cast. It's easily one of the best in the game, but yeah just don't get predictable and you're good to go.

So with the new japanese tech. Especially the most recent one using Perfect Pivot F-Tilt and Up-tilt. It makes me think, should we change the C-stick to attack to get that? Or should we keep it as smash attacks so we can still get Perfect Pivot D-Smash? It's been a good punish to enemies who do laggy attacks on shield that are spaced. dropshield pp d-smash.

Whatcha think..?

Imo Greninja gains more utility from tilt stick than smash stick.

 

[MartinAW4]

So with the new japanese tech. Especially the most recent one using Perfect Pivot F-Tilt and Up-tilt. It makes me think, should we change the C-stick to attack to get that? Or should we keep it as smash attacks so we can still get Perfect Pivot D-Smash? It's been a good punish to enemies who do laggy attacks on shield that are spaced. dropshield pp d-smash.

Whatcha think..?

I think Greninja`s tilts benefit more from Perfect Pivot than his Smashes. Especially Utilt and Dtilt are great moves with a lot of combo potential and both combo into kill moves at high percents when almost none of our other combos work. Their only problem is their lack of range and PP helps to fix that. Being able to land tilts more easily would really help Greninja secure kills at above 100%.

Our smashes are basically the opposite. They aren`t so great, but they have good range. So while PP could help with their spacing, I think tilts benefit from PP much more.

 

[Funkermonster]

Going to a tournament tomorrow and casuals tonight, Greninja's gonna be my go-to again. Wish me good luck in there guys!

 

[FullMoon]

Uh, hints for dealing with Fox? I just got wrecked by one pretty badly because I had no idea of what to do.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I tried drawing Greninja.

 

[FullMoon]

Well, you're a better artist than I could ever hope to be.

 

[Lavani]

I laughed more than I should've at this.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Well, you're a better artist than I could ever hope to be.

Bwah. You don't get anywhere with that thinking! :1

I laughed more than I should've at this.

Ehehe. ;P

Ohhh. Almost forgot. Ordered a Greninja hoodie and it arrived today.

Spoiler: whoops its sideways but I can't fix it

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Anyone have any tips against Ness?

 

[Golden Sun]

I thought Greninja was going to have a lot of potential and people would pick him up, like, pro players since his moves are userful and his speed is great, but sadly I see barely anyone good who use him, im not talking about the Greninja forum, im just saying on For Glory its VERY hard to see a good Greninja player who actually use his moves competitively, he's like a Sheik but more lower, amazing speed, great counter, pushing recovery to people offstage, sneaking up people who are edge guarding with shadow sneak offstage, man he has ALOT of potential, but I don't see anyone use him correctly on for glory, hence why that makes sense, but still, a lot of potential, most best Greninja I've seen so far https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PCQhoBDwYI