Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[BlinkIV]

Cool! Well if you guys do end up going, hit me up and we'll hang out! :D

 

[FullMoon]

Oh, I dunno if anybody knows about this, but Smash Greninja is confirmed to be male. Nintendo did a Greninja event in X/Y distributing the ninja with the moves he knows in Smash, and those Greninja are always male.

Just a little bit of trivia =P

 

[Spirst]

I think I've only heard one person call Greninja a she in the entirety of the game's life so far. Good to know though.

 

[FullMoon]

I never ever saw someone call Greninja a female, but I've seen people use "it".

 

[Oblivion129]

Oh, I dunno if anybody knows about this, but Smash Greninja is confirmed to be male. Nintendo did a Greninja event in X/Y distributing the ninja with the moves he knows in Smash, and those Greninja are always male.

Just a little bit of trivia =P

Really? I would have liked that event.

 

[FullMoon]

Really? I would have liked that event.

Japan-only, unfortunately. Like most Pokémon events.

 

[Lavani]

Having a doll or a log to play around with after using Substitute is just the cherry on top for the move.

I love how hitting the objects toward people usually makes them shield, like they're thinking "wait he can attack me with that???"

Not that I wouldn't be afraid of a log flying at my face but still

 

[KERO]

Idk, looking at Serebii and am seeing a male/female sign for the event. Greninja just has a super high chance of being male.

I personally vote that it doesn't have a defined gender period. Whether he/she is male or female is up to you.

 

[MartianMedia]

So I've been losing my faith in my ability to play with and main Greninja :/ I'm not sure if I'm just not getting something but I always seem to miss combos and just end up getting frustrated and then spam SS all day erryday

 

[Coffee™]

Thoughts on starting up a stage discussion and/or moveset thread(s)?

 

[Gunla]

We have a moveset thread. Stage Discussion? Not really...

 

[KERO]

I would not mind managing a thread for stage discussion. I'd like to see one run in the same vein as our match-up discussion (grouping similar stages on a per-week basis, such as FD, Omegas, Town and City, Duck Hunt one week, Lylat+BF the next, etc.,).

Or, because there are fewer stages, maybe just one per week? I think it would also be a good idea to have a link to the stage analyzations from the Smash Academy Forum in the thread itself for reference purposes.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hey, look. It's all of us. :v

 

[FullMoon]

.... I'm guessing that's the movie considering the quality of the animation but... I thought there was only one Greninja in it? Or is that Double Team?

Because I swear the anime has been stealing my ideas lately. I did a whole team of Greninja first =P

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

.... I'm guessing that's the movie considering the quality of the animation but... I thought there was only one Greninja in it? Or is that Double Team?

Because I swear the anime has been stealing my ideas lately. I did a whole team of Greninja first =P

I'm not exactly sure. I found the .gif on tumblr. xD

 

[Sneak Frog]

Probably is the movie, although the quality of the anime has been pretty solid for Kalos.

 

[Lavani]

Now, I need MK help, though.

Now that I've seen some of your sets vs Katakiri, I can give some late advice!

- If you get grabbed, DI to his front. This puts you far enough away to limit dthrow/fthrow followups, makes uthrow more horizontal, and minimizes bthrow's knockback.
- Likewise, DI Shuttle Loop's first hit away from MK too. I'm told if you SDI it as well the second hit always whiffs but I can't say anything about the accuracy of that claim.
- Fsmash is a frametrap tool that I noticed you trying to punish a few times. There's only 18f of end lag on it and it has a ton of range, shieldstun, and pushback; we can't punish it on shield and even on whiff you have to be right at the end of its range and on point with a dash attack/dash grab to actually guarantee anything, in most cases it isn't worth trying. By that token, keep in mind that most MKs are likely looking for something to punish after throwing fsmash out, and that you might be able to bait something out of them.
- Be very careful about edgeguarding below the ledge. Drill Rush does a fixed knockback stagespike if canceled by grabbing the ledge. I think on most stages Greninja's recovery is good enough to make it back still, but you're put in a really bad situation. (theory: baiting drill rush and using up-and-toward-the-stage Substitute might work for a stagespike if the doll/log stays in the Drill Rush so MK's slowed down by hitlag and can't get to the ledge in time)
- Due to the nature of windboxes, Shuttle Loop is highly susceptible to Hydro Pump gimping. Spraying MK during the loop portion is death. If he isn't far below the ledge and you want to play it safe, you can usually spray a horizontal shot from onstage and hit him at the peak of the loop (crazy acceleration away from the stage), but jumping over the ledge for a downward spray to catch lower recoveries probably isn't as unsafe as it sounds, unless I'm remembering things incorrectly.
- Shadow Sneak could be useful for edgeguarding here. MKs like floating offstage to mess with your edgeguard timings, makes them a prime target for a sudden teleport kick when used sparingly.

And finally, some general advice: I see you trying to punish things with fsmash a lot (I'm guilty of this too) and three things happen: you're usually not getting as much damage as you could off something like dash attack>fair, you're staling a kill move, and if they dodge it you get punished for the horrid end lag. I don't really have a blanket suggestion to the problem, just keep in mind that there's safer and sometimes more damaging punish options.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Someone told me Greninja is a campy character? Would this be true?

 

[David Galanos]

Hey guys sorry if this is off topic but a lot of my threads have move locked or whatever and I was wondering like what it takes to make an actual thread. Thanks

 

[FullMoon]

Someone told me Greninja is a campy character? Would this be true?

Greninja only has shurikens for projectiles and he can't even store the charged ones so while Greninja can certainly camp to poke the opponent with shurikens for a bit, I don't think you'll get very far by just camping.

 

[Kite0692]

Now that I've seen some of your sets vs Katakiri, I can give some late advice!

- If you get grabbed, DI to his front. This puts you far enough away to limit dthrow/fthrow followups, makes uthrow more horizontal, and minimizes bthrow's knockback.
- Likewise, DI Shuttle Loop's first hit away from MK too. I'm told if you SDI it as well the second hit always whiffs but I can't say anything about the accuracy of that claim.
- Fsmash is a frametrap tool that I noticed you trying to punish a few times. There's only 18f of end lag on it and it has a ton of range, shieldstun, and pushback; we can't punish it on shield and even on whiff you have to be right at the end of its range and on point with a dash attack/dash grab to actually guarantee anything, in most cases it isn't worth trying. By that token, keep in mind that most MKs are likely looking for something to punish after throwing fsmash out, and that you might be able to bait something out of them.
- Be very careful about edgeguarding below the ledge. Drill Rush does a fixed knockback stagespike if canceled by grabbing the ledge. I think on most stages Greninja's recovery is good enough to make it back still, but you're put in a really bad situation. (theory: baiting drill rush and using up-and-toward-the-stage Substitute might work for a stagespike if the doll/log stays in the Drill Rush so MK's slowed down by hitlag and can't get to the ledge in time)
- Due to the nature of windboxes, Shuttle Loop is highly susceptible to Hydro Pump gimping. Spraying MK during the loop portion is death. If he isn't far below the ledge and you want to play it safe, you can usually spray a horizontal shot from onstage and hit him at the peak of the loop (crazy acceleration away from the stage), but jumping over the ledge for a downward spray to catch lower recoveries probably isn't as unsafe as it sounds, unless I'm remembering things incorrectly.
- Shadow Sneak could be useful for edgeguarding here. MKs like floating offstage to mess with your edgeguard timings, makes them a prime target for a sudden teleport kick when used sparingly.

And finally, some general advice: I see you trying to punish things with fsmash a lot (I'm guilty of this too) and three things happen: you're usually not getting as much damage as you could off something like dash attack>fair, you're staling a kill move, and if they dodge it you get punished for the horrid end lag. I don't really have a blanket suggestion to the problem, just keep in mind that there's safer and sometimes more damaging punish options.

If you press up when MK uses shuttle loop, they usually get only the first hit on you.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey, @ KERO would you be up to have a couple of matches against me? I kinda want to see how I'd hold up against you.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

Full moon, I'm actually looking to play at the moment if you'd like to.
I didn't know if you only wanted to play the ditto or not

 

[Spirst]

Hey guys sorry if this is off topic but a lot of my threads have move locked or whatever and I was wondering like what it takes to make an actual thread. Thanks

A thread should yield good discussion value and not have too much overlap with existing threads. A few of the threads you made so far are better purposed to be part of already existing threads (For Greninja players, who is he bad against?=MU thread, Why did everyone drop Greninja?=Social, thread about doing combos/having problems with Greninja in general after 1.0.4=patch thread).

As for the stage thread, that seems like a good idea. A format used on the DH boards brought in there by DunnoBro is:

Pros:
1: X
2: Y

Cons:
1: A
2: B

(Both should be simple, 1-3 sentence bullet points)

Verdict: Strike / Accept / Play

Clarification: (More in-depth about the previous if felt needed)
Characters/type of characters to take, or avoid here: (leave blank if unsure)


This format makes the most sense to me and organizes the stage discussion by distilling the necessary data rather than having unformatted paragraphs.

 

[FullMoon]

Full moon, I'm actually looking to play at the moment if you'd like to.
I didn't know if you only wanted to play the ditto or not

I'm more interested in the ditto right now, sorry.

 

[BlinkIV]

FullMoon, I'll play you tonight if you're down. It would be rather late since I work till 11:00 PM (central time). Just hit me up, i'm always down to ditto.

 

[FullMoon]

FullMoon, I'll play you tonight if you're down. It would be rather late since I work till 11:00 PM (central time). Just hit me up, i'm always down to ditto.

It's already 11 PM here so I'm not sure if that will be possible

 

[BlinkIV]

7:30 PM here. Maybe we can play in the morning? I'm open before 2:00 PM (central) and open after 11:00 PM.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd be up for it, certainly.

 

[KERO]

Hey, @ KERO would you be up to have a couple of matches against me? I kinda want to see how I'd hold up against you.

Sorry, kinda just got up because I have no idea how normal sleep works. I'd still be up for it, though (NNID is KEROnoKamen). Although, don't expect anything amazing haha. Wi-Fi tends to really mess me up.

In other news, some friends of mine just showed me this: https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

While this is a neat string, something really caught my eye in using Bair to force a get-up. If we Uair spike someone, and they fail to tech, we can get a Bair out to force a get-up to a Fsmash.

 

[FullMoon]

Sorry, kinda just got up because I have no idea how normal sleep works. I'd still be up for it, though (NNID is KEROnoKamen). Although, don't expect anything amazing haha. Wi-Fi tends to really mess me up.

In other news, some friends of mine just showed me this: https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

While this is a neat string, something really caught my eye in using Bair to force a get-up. If we Uair spike someone, and they fail to tech, we can get a Bair out to force a get-up to a Fsmash.

All right, I've sent you a friend request

And wow that combo. That's some crazy stuff.

 

[KERO]

All right, I've sent you a friend request

And wow that combo. That's some crazy stuff.

I'll go ahead and host.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh wow Kero. We were surprisingly even matched. Those were some great matches man.

I think the lack of sleep started making me really sloppy at the end so I should probably stop now. Still that was really fun.

We were so in sync that we even managed to hit ourselves with F-Smash at the same time =P

 

[KERO]

Haha, yeah. Ggs man! I think you're more of a Fsmash fanatic than I am XD

One thing I did notice was that occasionally you would go for a charged Usmash when I was super above you, and while that may work in the case that I would Dair, I think the best overall option would be to instead try and chase me from the ground to prevent my landings.

That said, Greninja dittos are fun if not a little strange lol. So much jab. Not to mention those Shadow Sneak shenanigans.

 

[FullMoon]

I have a bit of an issue of charging smashes even though I'm very well aware that I probably should never do it. Thanks for the advice though.

I was honestly expecting to lose a lot more than I actually did, even though I do think you won more matches than I, and you even three-stocked me twice.

Though honestly I think I spam Dsmash more often than Fsmash, it's a terrible habit that I really need to stop doing.

But I guess in the end I'm at least decent enough. At least I'm not as bad as I thought I was before.

 

[KERO]

Honestly, I thought I was about to be trounced. I knew that you had once been ranked 26th on that ladder, so I didn't anticipate myself doing too well at all haha. Thought I was going to be taught a lesson in humility so those wins over the weekend wouldn't get to my head (and to be fair, you still managed to humble me lol).

Also yeah, I noticed the Dsmashes (Fsmash is almost always a better option unless you see them running into you), but I didn't bring that up cause I chalked it up to you being tired.

Otherwise, you definitely have a really solid Greninja. You were going for a lot of things that I've never considered before (like punishing airdodge at low percent Uthrow with Utilt to Usmash).

 

[FullMoon]

Oh, my rank on the ladder is long gone, I fell all the way to 128th. I'm not even close to top there anymore.

Still, you've had some nice results in tournaments so I thought you would be the best one to go against to see if my Greninja could have any sort of tournament future and I guess I do if I keep practicing. It certainly gave me a motivation boost that I needed.

Those were some great matches in any case, if you want to face me again someday, I'm always up for a challenge

 

[MartinAW4]

Sorry, kinda just got up because I have no idea how normal sleep works. I'd still be up for it, though (NNID is KEROnoKamen). Although, don't expect anything amazing haha. Wi-Fi tends to really mess me up.

In other news, some friends of mine just showed me this: https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

While this is a neat string, something really caught my eye in using Bair to force a get-up. If we Uair spike someone, and they fail to tech, we can get a Bair out to force a get-up to a Fsmash.

Wow, great combo. That was Nair -> Uair spike -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Dair -> Footstool -> FF Bair -> charged Fsmash
But it`s not the Uair spike -> Bair that forces them into a get-up, it is Dair -> Footstool -> Bair which only works at specific percents, so it probably won`t be very practical in a real match.

 

[BlinkIV]

Siiiiicknasty combo.

Continuing from the convo with Marvin.

The MU with Shiek is definitely in her favor, neutral position is very scary. Beware for needles..WS can't beat them, her mobility is godlike, so she can easily weave in and punish us for tossing out WS.

The MAIN thing in this MU though. Is Shieks F-tilt, that thing is gdlk and can completely kill us if we aren't careful enough. We don't have any OoS option that is fast enough to beat F-Tilt shield pressure, and not to mention she can follow up easily to grab if you hold shield. A theory I had was to drop shield jab if she goes for F-Tilt > Grab. But it wouldn't beat out F-Tilt > F-tilt, so it's a 50/50 scenario. There is absolutely no way we can play campy against Shiek and hope to win, no way in hell.

Adding to Neutral, the best things you want to do are: SHFFL Nair/Fair and then occasional F-Tilt (Or sliding F-tilt) to kinda swat her away. I don't recommend using D-Tilt that much due to how much startup it has..with that, Shiek can just easily punish you with a jab/f-tilt before the move even comes out. The moveset seems kinda limited, but we can make it work.

Offstage isn't so bad for both sides. Be careful of how you recover because Shiek can swat us out with B-air/F-air/Bouncing Fish, so it can be a little tough to recover. The best thing I do against Shiek is when I'm above the ledge, I do Up-B Upwards, and then downwards into the ledge. That way it kinda pushes Shiek away abit so you can be safe on the ledge for a moment. And if Shiek is offstage, don't commit to trying to Hydro Pump her unless you know it's 100% guaranteed to kill. Best thing to do is just wait on stage, and throw fully charged WS when she's under the ledge and hope to hit..OR if she's above you, punish with Up-smash/Up-tilt/Shadow Sneak to catch her landings.

The big issue with Shiek is, she can't secure the kill. If she gets you above 130%, you obtained the Golden Banana. We have an easier time killing Shiek, but she has an easier time destroying us in Neutral. So as long as you stay out of B-air/F-Smash/Bouncing Fish/Up-Smash range from 130% and higher, you're good to go.

Another thing, she has Mii Brawler/Yoshi/Mario/Dr.Mario/Luigi syndrome. Where she can mash Nair at low %'s to get out of stuff. So if you Up-throw, they will likely mash Nair, and just punish that with Up-smash for the % lead. Otherwise if they air dodge, opt to do charged D-smash to catch the landing. I'd typically go for the up-air follow up at higher %'s (Around 50%). Another thing to do around 30-40% is to just bair her away and keep the stage control.

I don't really like to use Substitute in the MU though. I typically use it to do the upward version and punish characters who hit me and go above (Like Ness doing rising fair, or greninja doing dair, etc). It's an odd occasion that you will see Shiek do D-air on you, and if she does? Power to you, and Down-B kill her.

We NEED to be aggressive against Shiek at all times, stay in her area and don't let her be in the position to F-Tilt you, thats what makes the MU so hard for Greninja. 60-40 Shieks favor, debatable to be 70-30 Shieks favor.

 

[FullMoon]

Here's confirmation that Greninja has Protean in Smash.

And yes, I lost that match. Good Lucario are really hard to go against.