Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Lavani]

I mean shield-piercing hits like Smart Bomb explosions. I noticed it at first when I was trying to check Substitute's counterattack for invincibility by countering a Smart Bomb, and instead just invulned through a few hits without countering then getting blown up.

If it's happening against PKT2 though then I have no explanation.

 

[KERO]

Kinda off-topic, but noticed Greninja's Dair makes him pretty tall. Example:

 

[Lavani]

Greninja are 4'11", Rosalina is like 7'7" based on model comparisons

seems legit

 

[Spirst]

And let's not forget that Olimar is 1.9 cm and Kirby is 8 in.

Smash scale, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Lavani]

To be fair, those characters would be really out of place heightwise if they weren't scaled up in size.

Characters like Charizard and Greninja would be perfectly fine at their canon heights but nooooo

Meanwhile Ridley is still too big

EDIT: I see what you mean by the invuln frames on Substitute now, I got it to happen a few times with PK Thunder. No idea what's up with this but it's intriguing.

 

[Spirst]

Kind of like how Mewtwo was so floaty and light but actually weighs more than Charizard in reality ( 269 lbs vs 199.5 lbs). Mewtwo is taller than Charizard too, funnily enough ( 6'7" vs 5'7").

 

[KERO]

Went ahead and revamped the Snatch and Fling thread into a general kill percent thread. Also, the upward Substitute List is finished! Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with a good name for the thread, so if anyone has any better suggestions, they'd be welcome.

Gonna take a little time off to relax for a bit, though. I'll try and get to Shadow Sneak starting next Monday.

 

[Marilink]

Kero, when you talk about gimping Ness with Sub, are you talking about Subbing PKT2 or just the projectile? If you Sub on PKT2, does he not hit you when you reappear?

 

[Kite0692]

Well, here's what I got regarding Substitute kill percents so far (all of them upward as it's the most powerful and easiest to test. For the other ones, you can probably add about 5-12 percent to get an accurate estimate. Don't really plan to go into those until after I at least cover Shadow Sneak). I only have baseline percents against the standard characters sans the Miis, but I like giving these small updates so that people that are super into this kind of data have it as early as possible.



Miis and Arts should come tomorrow (or rather, later today as it were) as I'm on my winter break. I'll try and get the level 1 rage done as well that(this) day if I can.

These % are before or after hit? I guess they are before...

 

[KERO]

Kero, when you talk about gimping Ness with Sub, are you talking about Subbing PKT2 or just the projectile? If you Sub on PKT2, does he not hit you when you reappear?

The PKT2. If he collides with a hurtbox on the initial hit, he loses hit hitbox entirely I believe. Either that or because it counts as a hitbox hitting Greninja, he can't hit Greninja with that same hitbox (and since he hit someone with the initial hit, he doesn't have the weaker hitbox afterward).

 

[FlareHabanero]

Everyone having a happy holiday?

Just remember, you guys are cold blooded but warm hearted.

 

[FullMoon]

I wrote a whole Christmas one-shot fanfic about Darkrai. I'm doing pretty well.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I wrote a whole Christmas one-shot fanfic about Darkrai. I'm doing pretty well.

Ooh? You write? Cool. :0

 

[FullMoon]

Ooh? You write? Cool. :0

Yeah, it's kinda of my hobby. Currently I'm writing a Slice of Life Pokémon fic, decided to make something Christmas themed just for fun, though it ended up kinda bad so I'm probably going to retcon it from the story proper =P

 

[FullMoon]

Double Post but... Merry Christmas from Brazil, fellow ninjas!

 

[Mister Eric]

I know this may sound patronizing, so I really apologize if it comes out that way, but you really just need to bear down on R.O.B. Just anticipate the lasers and power shield, and Fair over the Gyro (or just shield it or Nair it and R.O.B.), and keep going in. Once you're near R.O.B., just jab, or if you can, grab and Uthrow. Once R.O.B. is in the air, he really has no easy or reliable way to land against Greninja. Uair, Fsmash, Usmash, Bair, grabs, and Fair all catch him. You can throw a Shuriken occasionally, but you need to always be on him. Just tack on percent like crazy and then get a read for the kill (or Uthrow if they're at high enough percent). R.O.B.'s pitiful airspeed and floatiness makes him really easy to chase down once he's in the air. Like you said, the biggest problem probably is getting in, but it just takes a couple of precise attacks to throw him off once you're in mid-range, and then you can pretty much just go full ham. Just be aware of his grab range, though. Uthrow can kill us at around 135%, but stuff like Nair to spotdodge/roll and a well spaced Fair can help avoid grabs. Overall, I feel it's actually one of our easier MUs to be completely honest (all this is coming from my experience vs Mister Eric. We will be playing online later this week, so I may be able to provide replays and stuff if needed later on).

I honestly think I just don't have a handle on the character yet. Not that it's in ROB's favor, but easier MU? Mmm..we'll see.

 

[Sneak Frog]

Merry Christmas from California! Not much happening on my end but hope everyone else has a good day.

 

[KERO]

I honestly think I just don't have a handle on the character yet. Not that it's in ROB's favor, but easier MU? Mmm..we'll see.

I mean, it's certainly a lot easier than some MUs for Greninja imo.

Anyway, Merry Frogmas everyone! I got some Amiibos to play around with. Hope the holidays are going well for everyone.

 

[MartianMedia]

I got the money to buy Smash WiiU, but Walmart is closed until tomorrow I NEED DAT GAME

 

[Mister Eric]

I mean, it's certainly a lot easier than some MUs for Greninja imo.

Anyway, Merry Frogmas everyone! I got some Amiibos to play around with. Hope the holidays are going well for everyone.

You could also be used to fighting rob lol

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Merry Christmas!

Here's me displaying the plush I got with my awkward face in it as well.

Spoiler

 

[Sneak Frog]

I see you've joined the... Plush Frog Army. Haha, it's a nice little plush isn't it?

 

[FullMoon]

All of my jealously.

On another note I've been losing so badly currently that I almost feel like giving up. I even managed to get my shield broken twice going against a Megaman today.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I see you've joined the... Plush Frog Army. Haha, it's a nice little plush isn't it?

Indeed! He's so soft~

All of my jealously.

On another note I've been losing so badly currently that I almost feel like giving up. I even managed to get my shield broken twice going against a Megaman today.

:/ I've heard the advice of playing a different character for a few days to cool down from your main. Find a secondary to play as when your main isn't feeling on point.

But really though. You're the best Greninja I've had the pleasure of playing against.

 

[Sneak Frog]

I actually kind of rely on mine to fall asleep easier nowadays. I am 20 years of age.


And yes, I would recommend finding secondaries, though I understand feeling the need to learn how to win against the entire roster with your character. In my own case, I haven't even decided on my reliable secondaries since there are so many characters I know how to play well. I use the term "well" loosely.

 

[KingHerpOfDerp]

I use Fox from time to time because he feels to great with his aerials.

 

[FullMoon]

Ugh, I dunno, I feel like I'm just going to do even worse if I play with a secondary. I used to have a rating of 1400 in Anther's ladder but now it fell all the way to around 1280. It's just such a drastic fall that makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I actually kind of rely on mine to fall asleep easier nowadays. I am 20 years of age.


And yes, I would recommend finding secondaries, though I understand feeling the need to learn how to win against the entire roster with your character. In my own case, I haven't even decided on my reliable secondaries since there are so many characters I know how to play well. I use the term "well" loosely.

Planning on cuddling my Greninja to sleep~

Hmm. Need to think of a name for him.

Ugh, I dunno, I feel like I'm just going to do even worse if I play with a secondary. I used to have a rating of 1400 in Anther's ladder but now it fell all the way to around 1280. It's just such a drastic fall that makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

Rating doesn't mean much on Anther's ladder though. It's skillllllllllll. Yes, rating might help gauge skill, but it's not the end all be all. Plus, if they're close losses, it's not much to worry about any way.

 

[Sneak Frog]

Planning on cuddling my Greninja to sleep~

Hmm. Need to think of a name for him.

I feel the need to suggest the name "Kurozu" for some reason, or "Kuro" for short. I dunno why, but I like the name for a ninja frog. But that's just me.

 

[FullMoon]

Potential Double Post, sorry.

Rating doesn't mean much on Anther's ladder though. It's skillllllllllll. Yes, rating might help gauge skill, but it's not the end all be all. Plus, if they're close losses, it's not much to worry about any way.

Point. At least in most fights I lose I tend to at least get my opponent down to one stock or it was a very near victory for me. Sorry, I just tend to take this game a bit too seriously sometimes.

My favorite name for Greninja is "Teishi". It means "apprentice" and has a nice ring to it. It was the name of my Froakie in X and it's going to be the name of my Greninja Amiibo once it comes out.

 

[Marilink]

^Many of my losses are in last-stock, high-pressure situations. I know how it feels. Just try, try as hard as you can not to get frustrated (as hard as that may be in Smash!), and take every loss and win as learning opportunities.

 

[MartianMedia]

i finally got Smash Wii U today! plus my Walmart had a deal where you could get an amiibo for a discount, so I got a fox amiibo as well :D too bad there isn't a Greninja one yet

 

[SVGK]

Does anyone else have a serious difficulty using his up special on the Wii U?, more than half the time he uses his side special instead, making recovery almost impossible.

 

[Gunla]

If you are having issues recovering, be sure to use Shadow Sneak to recover in tandem with Hydro Pump.

Shadow Sneak's short endlag allows for quick followup with a Hydro Pump.

On the Shadow Sneak vs Hydro Pump input, it may depend on how you are activating it. I play the 3DS version, and have little issue executing Hydro Pump after Shadow Sneak. It also is good to practice inputs routinely.

 

[Marilink]

Just keep working on deliberately doing Up-B. Jump off the stage and try to Hydro Pump back. It should only take you less than an hour to get the hang of it, and then you'll never do an accidental side-B again.

Also, there was some earlier discussion about Tilt Stick Greninja. Well, something that Tilt Stick-style has in its favor (as everyone is talking about these days) is Perfect Pivoting. And I think there are some real applications for Greninja (13:32 timestamp if Youtube doesn't give it to you). For instance, I can say from experience that Perfect Pivot Utilt is killer. I mean, Utilt is pretty tough to hit, but it truly combos into Uair at much higher percents than Uthrow...and Perfect Pivot Utilt gives us a solid approach option with pretty good hitbox coverage.

Try it out. I was using it against my brother a bit, and while I can't consistently Perfect Pivot yet, I was landing some sweet PP Utilts > Uairs for high damage and occasional KO's. I think this is gonna be really important as our Ninja Metagame evolves.

 

[FullMoon]

I can't for the life of me get the hang of PP so I'm probably going to miss on the utility of that.

 

[Lavani]

I can PP left but not right. Even then, I can't really get a utilt in without a C-stick (thanks 3DS) so I'll be missing out on the fun too. I agree though, it looks potent.

So, frame data stuff. I have IASA for everything but dash attack (because I forgot about it). I'll try and get non-IASA end frames for everything tonight too, and doublecheck the IASA numbers. I put off collecting end lag on aerials, but I think I have an idea to check that now. Unsure how to go about checking the counter frames on Substitute, my first thought is seeing what frames in the animation a Smart Bomb begins to hit, but I don't know if those actually hit every frame or if it's a larger interval. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

I also have pretty much nothing on Hydro Pump, because I'm not sure what numbers we care about beyond startup and landing lag.

 

[KERO]

Oh man, IASA frames. Having those is definitely going to be a boon for us. As far as aerials go, the most important ones are gonna be Bair and Uair I feel, so try and be super sure with those. The other important one would probably be Fair, but not nearly as much as Uair or even Bair. I have a feeling that we all know that Dair and Nair have horrific amounts of end lag, so those would be a little less important (unless there's some super specific frame either one can be interrupted really early or something weird).

EDIT: Something I just realized: We don't have a stage discussion thread. If you all want, I could go ahead and make one, but I think it'd be smart to discuss stages similar to how we're doing characters (grouping similar stages on a per week basis).

Also, since I got nothing better to do, I messed around with Omega Stages, and Greninja's two best are Luigi's Mansion (the safest one for Greninja. It's almost impossible to die from bouncing off the stage as you need to go under the ledge toward a very specific spot of the mansion itself to completely miss the ledge upon bouncing upward. Otherwise, you're guaranteed the ledge if you up-b into it or into the mansion itself if the bounce reaches the ledge. Also, we still get Bair stage spikes) and Lylat Cruise (not safe at all but Bair puts the opponent in a pretty terrible position even if they tech the bottom of the stage).

Another Edit: Is is possible for us to Running Shadow Sneak after a full charged Shuriken and combo with it at higher percents? I'm trying it, and it's not seeming to combo, but it feels reeeeeaally close. I can get it with Shadow Dash, which comes out slower, so I'd imagine it'd be possible.

 

[Lavani]

Another Edit: Is is possible for us to Running Shadow Sneak after a full charged Shuriken and combo with it at higher percents? I'm trying it, and it's not seeming to combo, but it feels reeeeeaally close. I can get it with Shadow Dash, which comes out slower, so I'd imagine it'd be possible.

Oh man if this is possible it'd be the best combo ever

unfortunately I'm not even coming close to getting it to connect on Sheik in the 80-100% range. Not sure what percents I'm supposed to be trying at.

EDIT: Never mind got it a few times on 70% Sheik lol

Sheik's aerial hurtboxes are so bad for comboing though, I swear everything whiffs (though Shadow Sneak's animation is deceptive too). Gonna try this with a different victim.

EDIT2: Hnngnngnngngngngnggg

Gotta say, this was good practice for learning running shadow sneak timing too :V

 

[FullMoon]

Oh my god.

I need to learn Running Shadow Sneak now.