Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[KERO]

Come to think of it, I don't think we've done much research on what we can escape via Shadow Sneak without being punished by something else. Anyone have the ability to easily test this out? I could go ahead and make a list of multi-hits if needed.

 

[Lavani]

I am so good at forgetting to reply to things.

Really? That's pretty nice. I'd definitely like to know his frame data sometime in the near future ahaha. Crossup nair is really good. I find it to work the most on Palutena and Falcon so far.

Regarding frame data, we have a data dump available, with non-specials labeled, and a pastebin containing a chunk of the same information in an easier-to-read format (ctrl+F "BEGIN gekkouga").

'Course, this doesn't cover ending lag and the hitbox locations might not be the easiest things to visualize. Maybe at some point I could make a thread compiling all of this stuff in an even more user-friendly format with the missing data, though I'm not making any promises (I'm really lazy, and I only secondary this character). I doubt I'd be motivated enough to do it for every move, but would people be interested in gifs with (rough estimates of) hitbubbles? Something like this:

Spoiler: fsmash

12f startup | 3f active | 35f ending
Total: 50f

If not I would really appreciate that could just keep things simple and make a table. Or do absolutely nothing because the pastebin is right there.

Come to think of it, I don't think we've done much research on what we can escape via Shadow Sneak without being punished by something else. Anyone have the ability to easily test this out? I could go ahead and make a list of multi-hits if needed.

Not really anything I could do on that front, but I'm interested in the results.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hey, everyone! I'm new around here and I am a huge Greninja fan and main him in 3DS. Don't have WiiU yet tho student budget 2 stronk 4 me.

Anyway, I'm a total beginner in the competitive smash scene and I probably won't go to any big tournaments, but I'm a decent player among people of my skill. I'm trying to learn a bit more about my buddy Greninja from this thread, but I have to break old habits before I get anywhere. But I digress. Nice to meet you all and I hope to stick around for a long time to come :D

Ayy. Welcome to the Pond, friend. Hope ya enjoy your stay!

As for Touhou, I've heard of it, but never actually played them. I know it's a bullet hell game... right?

 

[FullMoon]

Ayy. Welcome to the Pond, friend. Hope ya enjoy your stay!

As for Touhou, I've heard of it, but never actually played them. I know it's a bullet hell game... right?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BAqoNcbEg

Yes

Though to be fair at least a lot of the patterns are very pleasant visually. Touhou is also the master of awesome music from my experience. There's also fighting games that are pretty damn good actually. Though unfortunately they lack an online mode

 

[Marilink]

I'm so, so bad at Bullet Hells, or else I probably would have gotten into Touhou by now. Alas.

 

[MartinAW4]

I am so good at forgetting to reply to things.


Regarding frame data, we have a data dump available, with non-specials labeled, and a pastebin containing a chunk of the same information in an easier-to-read format (ctrl+F "BEGIN gekkouga").

'Course, this doesn't cover ending lag and the hitbox locations might not be the easiest things to visualize. Maybe at some point I could make a thread compiling all of this stuff in an even more user-friendly format with the missing data, though I'm not making any promises (I'm really lazy, and I only secondary this character). I doubt I'd be motivated enough to do it for every move, but would people be interested in gifs with (rough estimates of) hitbubbles? Something like this:

Spoiler: fsmash

12f startup | 3f active | 35f ending
Total: 50f

If not I would really appreciate that could just keep things simple and make a table. Or do absolutely nothing because the pastebin is right there.


Not really anything I could do on that front, but I'm interested in the results.

It would be really great if you could do such gifs with basic frame data (or just the frame data if doing gifs is too much work) for Greninja`s other moves. I really have no idea how you know which frames correspond to startup, active and ending frames in the data dump.
For example just for Fsmash in the "def game_5F():" part of the data dump you have:
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=8.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=13.000000, )
SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=3.000000, )
And in the pastebin it says Frame 13-15
So how do you know which frames are the startup, active and ending frames?

@ KERO
I don`t think testing which moves can be escaped by SS hitstun cancelling is necessary. Hitstun cancelling has practically no drawbacks, so we don`t really need a list of moves we should try to escape, we should try to escape them all. We need to grow the habit of mashing side B whenever we get hit, grabbed or trapped in a combo. I think it would be too much work to test every move in the game, but if we manage to escape a move during a match that we would expect to be inescapable or if a move can be escaped and punished at the same time like Sheik`s Fsmash, we can share that information here.

 

[FullMoon]

I wonder if we can hitsun cancel out of Diddy's grab so we have a way to punish him out of his dreaded d-throw -> up-air combo.

 

[MartinAW4]

I wonder if we can hitsun cancel out of Diddy's grab so we have a way to punish him out of his dreaded d-throw -> up-air combo.

Unfortunately you can`t escape the Dthrow, but you can escape all of Diddy`s smashes and Dtilt, possibly even dash attack.

 

[wizardto1]

Has anyone else been using aerial shadow sneak to edgeguard? It really hits hard and your opponents don't really expect it!

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Has anyone else been using aerial shadow sneak to edgeguard? It really hits hard and your opponents don't really expect it!

Master Perfect pivot it will help a lot with your spacing against Mario trust me.

Edit: This reply is for everyone lol

 

[wizardto1]

Master Perfect pivot it will help a lot with your spacing against Mario trust me.

Edit: This reply is for everyone lol

Umm.. i think you meant to reply to the post I made in the matchup thread but thanks.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Got my first local tournament today. Gonna be representing the ninja frog!

 

[Lavani]

It would be really great if you could do such gifs with basic frame data (or just the frame data if doing gifs is too much work) for Greninja`s other moves. I really have no idea how you know which frames correspond to startup, active and ending frames in the data dump.
For example just for Fsmash in the "def game_5F():" part of the data dump you have:
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=8.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=13.000000, )
SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=3.000000, )
And in the pastebin it says Frame 13-15
So how do you know which frames are the startup, active and ending frames?

AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=13.000000, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-6.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-2.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x17, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=-1.500000, X=1.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

The AsynchronousTimer means these hitboxes are appearing on frame 13

SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=3.000000, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()

The SynchronousTimer means after three frames, the hitboxes are removed. So the active frames are 13-15f, and everything before that is the startup.

End lag isn't available in the data dump, I measured that myself.

EDIT: I suppose it'd also help to explain:
Asynch timers tell you what frame something happens on
Synch timers tell you how many frames after the previous timer something happens

 

[MartinAW4]

AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=13.000000, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-6.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-2.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x17, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=-1.500000, X=1.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

The AsynchronousTimer means these hitboxes are appearing on frame 13

SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=3.000000, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()

The SynchronousTimer means after three frames, the hitboxes are removed. So the active frames are 13-15f, and everything before that is the startup.

End lag isn't available in the data dump, I measured that myself.

EDIT: I suppose it'd also help to explain:
Asynch timers tell you what frame something happens on
Synch timers tell you how many frames after the previous timer something happens

Alright, I thought you found the end lag in the data dump and I understand the SynchronousTimer now as well. But what I still don`t understand is how you know which AsynchronousTimer indicates the start-up frames since there are 3 different AsynchronousTimers for Fsmash:

AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=8.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=13.000000, )

In your gif you chose Frame 12 as the start-up frame while in the pastebin they chose Frame 13. So which one is correct?

 

[Lavani]

I meant that there's 12 frames of startup before the hitbox comes out on frame 13. I can see where you'd be confused though, maybe I should format that differently before I make a thread.

Would it be better to say it like "Active 13-15f, ends 50f"?

 

[MartinAW4]

I meant that there's 12 frames of startup before the hitbox comes out on frame 13. I can see where you'd be confused though, maybe I should format that differently before I make a thread.

Would it be better to say it like "Active 13-15f, ends 50f"?

OK, it makes sense now. But I think the "Active 13-15f, ends 50f" format would be more clear and also consistent with the pastebin. I`m looking forward to thread once it`s finished.

 

[KERO]

@ KERO
I don`t think testing which moves can be escaped by SS hitstun cancelling is necessary. Hitstun cancelling has practically no drawbacks, so we don`t really need a list of moves we should try to escape, we should try to escape them all. We need to grow the habit of mashing side B whenever we get hit, grabbed or trapped in a combo. I think it would be too much work to test every move in the game, but if we manage to escape a move during a match that we would expect to be inescapable or if a move can be escaped and punished at the same time like Sheik`s Fsmash, we can share that information here.

Well, my main concern is that there are some multi-hits (quite a few jabs) we can simply escape by mashing down and shield due to Greninja's low landing box (which can lead to a grab punish) while others it may be better to DI up and Shadow Sneak out of instead (like R.O.B.'s side-B). And then there's the question of what multi-hits can we do either option (so that we can decide to either go for a combo or a SS kill). I understand it may be difficult to test every move, but it would be nice to know imo. However, like you said, it's probably not necessary to test.

Got my first local tournament today. Gonna be representing the ninja frog!

Good stuff! We're gonna show the world that even post-nerf, Greninja is a hell of a frog to be reckoned with!

 

[FullMoon]

On a more depressing note, Greninja is getting suspected in Smogon and it's pretty evident that it's going to get banned. So soon we won't be able to use the ninja properly in Pokémon anymore.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

On a more depressing note, Greninja is getting suspected in Smogon and it's pretty evident that it's going to get banned. So soon we won't be able to use the ninja properly in Pokémon anymore.

I suspected thought that something like this would happen. Sucks cause Greninja is the staple Pokemon on all of my teams. :V

 

[Jaguar360]

Yeah, it's really sad. :/ It honestly really deserves to leave OU though. There's always Ubers, Doubles, Triples and Battle Spot to use it in though.

 

[FullMoon]

My problem with the ban is just that Greninja can't do a thing in Ubers due to how strong everything is there. So by banning it to Ubers they pretty much erased the ninja from the singles meta.

 

[Sneak Frog]

Well it's a good thing I only play doubles then...

 

[BlinkIV]

I am so good at forgetting to reply to things.


Regarding frame data, we have a data dump available, with non-specials labeled, and a pastebin containing a chunk of the same information in an easier-to-read format (ctrl+F "BEGIN gekkouga").

'Course, this doesn't cover ending lag and the hitbox locations might not be the easiest things to visualize. Maybe at some point I could make a thread compiling all of this stuff in an even more user-friendly format with the missing data, though I'm not making any promises (I'm really lazy, and I only secondary this character). I doubt I'd be motivated enough to do it for every move, but would people be interested in gifs with (rough estimates of) hitbubbles? Something like this:

Spoiler: fsmash

12f startup | 3f active | 35f ending
Total: 50f

If not I would really appreciate that could just keep things simple and make a table. Or do absolutely nothing because the pastebin is right there.

Looking at the gif is actually gdlk. Knowing where the hitbubbles are on his moves are more than enough. I'm not into frame data "that" badly, but hitbubbles do work just well. I'm likin' the look of that F-Smash haha.

 

[joaoTforce]

Guys I having a problem trying to do a short hop up air because for some reason pressing a right after jump while holding up on the circle pad does an up smash on 3ds. is there anyway to turn that off? It's really annoying to get punished for something I didn't mean to do.

 

[MartinAW4]

Guys I having a problem trying to do a short hop up air because for some reason pressing a right after jump while holding up on the circle pad does an up smash on 3ds. is there anyway to turn that off? It's really annoying to get punished for something I didn't mean to do.

You`re doing jump cancelled Usmash. It happens to me as well. You can avoid it by pressing jump first and waiting until you see Greninja jump, then immediately perform the Uair.

Or you could solve the problem like I do and simply avoid using Uthrow at such low % when you`d need to use short hop Uair. Below around 10%, the Uair follow up is not a true combo anyway and because of the weaker downwards pull of the Uair hits after patch 1.0.4, you won`t be even able to land the last Uair hit from the SH Uair. So it`s better to either use Bthrow which is your strongest throw, dealing 8% damage. Or you could combo into your throw at the start of the match with Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab which will allow you to use full hop Uair after Uthrow and even combo another Uair after the first one depending on the opponent`s DI.

 

[KERO]

Also, regarding the rough estimates of hitbubbles, I'd like it, but I'm a little cautious of these estimates. I feel like Fsmash is slightly longer and goes higher than you give it credit for in the gif. Then again, I've never been good at interpreting hitbubbles and tend to just kind of intuitively figure out my characters' hitboxes' ranges by playing them a ton against level 3s.

 

[Lavani]

Also, regarding the rough estimates of hitbubbles, I'd like it, but I'm a little cautious of these estimates. I feel like Fsmash is slightly longer and goes higher than you give it credit for in the gif. Then again, I've never been good at interpreting hitbubbles and tend to just kind of intuitively figure out my characters' hitboxes' ranges by playing them a ton against level 3s.

I did a decent amount of testing to figure out the blind spot and the max reach, I'm rather confident in those. I am less confident as to if the hitbubble sizes are accurate though, and while it doesn't really matter a whole lot I can't really consistently place the middle one so it tends to look rather sloppy.

I'm not crazy about putting a ton of work into something that is just an estimate though, and I certainly agree with your concerns.

 

[Spirst]

I think it could be a good idea but with it being simply estimation right now, it'd be a lot of work for an uncertain result. It should be held off on for the moment and we should work on what's concrete like the frame data. We just need recovery frames now.

 

[Lavani]

Sounds good. I'll see what I can get done tonight.

 

[Marilink]

You`re doing jump cancelled Usmash. It happens to me as well. You can avoid it by pressing jump first and waiting until you see Greninja jump, then immediately perform the Uair.

Or you could solve the problem like I do and simply avoid using Uthrow at such low % when you`d need to use short hop Uair. Below around 10%, the Uair follow up is not a true combo anyway and because of the weaker downwards pull of the Uair hits after patch 1.0.4, you won`t be even able to land the last Uair hit from the SH Uair. So it`s better to either use Bthrow which is your strongest throw, dealing 8% damage. Or you could combo into your throw at the start of the match with Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab which will allow you to use full hop Uair after Uthrow and even combo another Uair after the first one depending on the opponent`s DI.

I mentioned this in another thread, but U-throw > Dsmash works surprisingly well at low percents. Once you've conditioned your opponent to mashing Air Dodge to get out of Uthrow > Uair, they might be tempted to air dodge your weak early-percent Uthrow, which puts them right in the line of fire for a half- or fully-charged Dsmash. It does like 25% and is pretty satisfying.

 

[MartinAW4]

I mentioned this in another thread, but U-throw > Dsmash works surprisingly well at low percents. Once you've conditioned your opponent to mashing Air Dodge to get out of Uthrow > Uair, they might be tempted to air dodge your weak early-percent Uthrow, which puts them right in the line of fire for a half- or fully-charged Dsmash. It does like 25% and is pretty satisfying.

Ha ha, I was just about to post this same combo. I just faced a Cpt. Falcon player who I kept comboing with Uthrow -> Uair until he started mashing air dodge the moment I used Uair. Then when I got the first KO and he was at low %, I tried Uthrow -> Usmash but the invincibility from the air dodge lasted until he reached the ground where he avoided the Usmash. So I tried again but this time with a charged Dsmash and it connected very reliably for 20% damage. I`m definitely going to start using this instead of Bthrow at low %.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Got my first local tournament today. Gonna be representing the ninja frog!

Got 7th out of 18 participants. Pretty good for my first time, I think!

But when I was playing on stream it was so nerve wracking. .—. Coincidentally I got absolutely bodied when I was on stream but fared pretty well off of stream?

 

[FullMoon]

Ah, stage fright. If I ever go to a tournament, I'm probably going to leave the place trembling.

 

[David Galanos]

How do you guys punish rolls as Greninja? If they're rolling behind me I'll do down smash, If they're going towards me I'll charge a Shuriken, and away either a shuriken or try a running up smash. Anything you guys do different;y or better?

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

How do you guys punish rolls as Greninja? If they're rolling behind me I'll do down smash, If they're going towards me I'll charge a Shuriken, and away either a shuriken or try a running up smash. Anything you guys do different;y or better?

I usually like going for pivot grabs, and something I utilize as well is perfect pivot FSmash or DSmash.

Even Perfect Pivot uptilt.

 

[KERO]

Alright, so instead of finishing up the Sub percents like I'm supposed to, I figured out that Sub wrecks Ness's recovery. If he's recovering low, Sub and diagonal downward in his direction (just don't double jump before Subbing, fall down toward him), and it puts him in perfect range for a Hydro Pump gimp if it doesn't outright kill him. Since Ness's Up-B slows down and basically stops when it encounters a hurtbox, he's a sitting duck for Sub. If he's recovering high, jump toward him, Sub, and go straight down to spike him and then DJ to Hydro Pump to save yourself.

Also, percents will be finished tonight. I just got the third parties and Miis left to finish up.

Edit: Is it just me, or are there frames on Sub where you're just plain invincible but don't counter?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Edit: Is it just me, or are there frames on Sub where you're just plain invincible but don't counter?

I've noticed this too.

Got 7th out of 18 participants. Pretty good for my first time, I think!

But when I was playing on stream it was so nerve wracking. .—. Coincidentally I got absolutely bodied when I was on stream but fared pretty well off of stream?

also i actually got 9th since the results have been finalized so uh yeah

 

[joaoTforce]

guys what is your favorite stage to play on? My favorite is FD just because I can't figure out a way to use platforms effectively...

 

[Lavani]

Edit: Is it just me, or are there frames on Sub where you're just plain invincible but don't counter?

If you try to counter an unblockable attack you just invuln through it without countering.

If that isn't what you mean though then this potentially sounds really interesting.

 

[KERO]

If you try to counter an unblockable attack you just invuln through it without countering.

If that isn't what you mean though then this potentially sounds really interesting.

If by unblockable, do you mean like Mac's KO Punch? Or do you just mean invincible, like Pika Thunder?

I was getting it a lot against Ness's PKT2 while I was messing around with it.