Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[elusiveTranscendent]

So, wait, I don't use this move at all lol. The upward one is the one u mentioned, right? I know this is a pretty dumb question, but I don't really know lol, how do I angle it upward? I have to press Up right after down B?

Precisely! Right after Greninja gets hit and disappears during substitute, that's the time you can direct which direction he'll appear from.

 

[joaoTforce]

so upwards sub is VERY strong. I was fooling around with computers on training mode for 3ds and on prism tower I have been able to KO jigglypuff at like 60%

 

[KERO]

Well, here's what I got regarding Substitute kill percents so far (all of them upward as it's the most powerful and easiest to test. For the other ones, you can probably add about 5-12 percent to get an accurate estimate. Don't really plan to go into those until after I at least cover Shadow Sneak). I only have baseline percents against the standard characters sans the Miis, but I like giving these small updates so that people that are super into this kind of data have it as early as possible.

Miis and Arts should come tomorrow (or rather, later today as it were) as I'm on my winter break. I'll try and get the level 1 rage done as well that(this) day if I can.

 

[MartinAW4]

Nice, I like the discussion on Substitute. Greninja needs all the kill moves it can get to make up for its killing problems, so it makes sense to explore its strongest kill move.

@ KERO Great work as always! It`s really appreciated.

One more thing we should find out about Substitute is the minimum amount of end lag frames a move needs to have for the opponent to be unable to block Substitute in time. I can`t find Substitute in Dantarion`s data dump, so we`ll probably need to test it personally through wifi. Any volunteers?

 

[Ekans647]

Well, here's what I got regarding Substitute kill percents so far (all of them upward as it's the most powerful and easiest to test. For the other ones, you can probably add about 5-12 percent to get an accurate estimate. Don't really plan to go into those until after I at least cover Shadow Sneak). I only have baseline percents against the standard characters sans the Miis, but I like giving these small updates so that people that are super into this kind of data have it as early as possible.



Miis and Arts should come tomorrow (or rather, later today as it were) as I'm on my winter break. I'll try and get the level 1 rage done as well that(this) day if I can.

What move did you use to activate Substitute? Does it's knock back vary depending on the attack?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

What move did you use to activate Substitute? Does it's knock back vary depending on the attack?

If I remember correctly, the damage and knockback is constant for Substitute, regardless of how strong an attack was countered, unlike the other counters.

 

[Spirst]

Nice, I like the discussion on Substitute. Greninja needs all the kill moves it can get to make up for its killing problems, so it makes sense to explore its strongest kill move.

@ KERO Great work as always! It`s really appreciated.

One more thing we should find out about Substitute is the minimum amount of end lag frames a move needs to have for the opponent to be unable to block Substitute in time. I can`t find Substitute in Dantarion`s data dump, so we`ll probably need to test it personally through wifi. Any volunteers?

I activated Greninja's counter with Palutena's jab in training mode at 1/4 speed and Palutena, upon activating it, was able to power shield the upwards counter just in time. Unfortunately, the Palutena boards don't seem to have frame data with recovery frames listed. I tried the same thing with Mac's/DH's jab and they were unable to shield in time. Additionally, Mega Man is able to fire two pellets, one activating the counter, and have just enough time to power shield the substitute counter.

I'm told that for Mega Man, the first A comes out at f8, second at f20 and the IASA of 2 shots is f48.

 

[Ekans647]

If I remember correctly, the damage and knockback is constant for Substitute, regardless of how strong an attack was countered, unlike the other counters.

That's odd. I would've preferred for Greninja to have a base knock back but still have a modifier for stronger attacks.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

That's odd. I would've preferred for Greninja to have a base knock back but still have a modifier for stronger attacks.

http://smashboards.com/threads/counters-reflectors-and-absorbs-wip.369298/

Yeah. It doesn't scale.

Fortunately, it's already pretty strong.

 

[FullMoon]

I think for the most part you shouldn't use Substitute against jabs and some of the faster tilts. Aerials might work because if they try it while you're on the ground, by the time Substitute starts they're likely going to be in their landing animation.

 

[KERO]

I'll add in my own two cents: I know for a fact that Robin's first hit of jab has enough ending lag for him to not be able to shield the sub. I'd imagine that's the limit, but I don't know anything solid about frame data =/ For another comparison, Mac cannot shield if he Ftilts either.

I think an important thing to remember is that the Substitute isn't just for show. It can actually cause some multi-hits to suffer quite a bit of hitlag (I believe the hit that activates the counter always suffers hitlag). While this is good in some cases (MK Fair, Greninja Bair, Mac Ftilt, etc.,), it does result in the slower multi-hits being extended way too long.

I think I'll go ahead and test to see if anything faster than Robin's Jab also works and edit this post with said results.

Edit: Fastest jab I could punish before a shield comes out is DK's (for reference, it's faster than Duck Hunt's and Wario's I believe). Of course, any character that continues the jab combo is gonna hit Greninja out of the attack, but having a frame of reference for how slow a move has to be for Sub to connect is nice.

 

[FullMoon]

If they continue the jab it's going to hit Greninja even if you aim it upwards?

 

[KERO]

If they continue the jab it's going to hit Greninja even if you aim it upwards?

Yep. Actually, if they continue the jab, it's usually better to try and come in from behind them (you can come in the front as well, but it's risky). It's kind of a mix-up really as some characters like DK can shield the side-hit but not the upward hit but at the same time, they can get a second jab out to punish an upward hit but not a side-hit. Should be noted that side-hit only has marginally less knockback distance (entirely due to the angle it sends them at as well as doing less damage) than an upward hit. You could also try for the semi-spike down-diagonal hit as well.

In other news, beginning testing on rage level 1!

Edit: Found that down strike bounces and avoids jabs entirely (from what I've seen). Given that downward strike has almost as much knockback as up strike, it may be even a better choice than the side-hits. The downward strike can also be punished by characters that can shield in time after a jab by them doing an OoS Nair or Uair. Can't be grabbed, though!

Edit: Finished with the Rage Level 1 kill percents! I probably won't get to level 2 or 3 until Sunday (got a tourney to practice for haha). Rage doesn't seem to have that big of an affect on Sub, though, so hopefully this will hold you guys over until then.

 

[Marilink]

I have a question: How do you guys predict your opponent well enough to land Substitute? I have always been terrible with Counters, so I usually avoid characters that have them. But I love Greninja too much not to learn how to use this move effectively.

 

[Ekans647]

After starting a winning streak snagging consistent KO's with Greninja, Ekans647 fell in love with Greninja's play style and his Substitute.

 

[KERO]

Yeah, messing around with it in For Glory. Definitely safer than I thought, and the kills are delicious.

Funnily enough, there are a couple characters that can duck UNDER the Counter. Notably, Kirby.

 

[Ekans647]

Yeah, messing around with it in For Glory. Definitely safer than I thought, and the kills are delicious.

Funnily enough, there are a couple characters that can duck UNDER the Counter. Notably, Kirby.

Most fun I've had on FG yet. FG can stress me out, but playing like this has brought back that awesomeness of Smash for me. I play a disruptive defense with Greninja and Substitute fits perfectly. It also helps considering I also won a match via Aethercide as well (I main Ike. Don't play him as frequently because I wreck my opponents with him).

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Substitute is awesome on Greninja I killed a Ness at 85% predicting his pk thunder. It looks like no matter where the pk thunder is it still hits Ness.

 

[Spirst]

It looks like no matter where the pk thunder is it still hits Ness.

Not exactly, from what I'd tested. You have to be within a certain range (about an uncharged Mega Man fsmash range) for the substitute to target the user rather than the projectile hitbox. Would be sweet if it was from anywhere.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Not exactly, from what I'd tested. You have to be within a certain range (about an uncharged Mega Man fsmash range) for the substitute to target the user rather than the projectile hitbox. Would be sweet if it was from anywhere.

Thank you for finding that out for me. I could use substitute on a suprise hit. Man I can't wait to do this in tournament match.

 

[Lavani]

Edit: Found that down strike bounces and avoids jabs entirely (from what I've seen). Given that downward strike has almost as much knockback as up strike, it may be even a better choice than the side-hits. The downward strike can also be punished by characters that can shield in time after a jab by them doing an OoS Nair or Uair. Can't be grabbed, though!

Does the down strike bounce when it contacts the floor, or when/if it hits the Substitute? I only briefly messed with it but it seemed like it bounced off the Substitute, which also made me think that there might be some use with dairing the doll/log to bounce instead of suffering landing lag. Hypersituational, but maybe there's some potential there.

Also, if you land with the down strike without bouncing it has some pretty nasty landing lag. I think this only happens at heights where the attack's active frames end before you get a chance to bounce though.

 

[FullMoon]

I think this is a good example of using Substitute to punish projectiles

I think Substitute just became my new favorite move. Pulling those stunts just feels so damn satisfying! Greninja is best ninja.

 

[Marilink]

This isn't Substitute-related, but I landed this in FG today and I thought you guys would appreciate it. Dashwaving, it's the new meta.

 

[joaoTforce]

wow... and we all thought sub was a terrible move at first. And that was beautiful Marilink XD

 

[FullMoon]

So something I was testing that could possibly be useful against Villager:

If he tries to KO you by dropping the bowling ball on you while you're hanging from the ledge, if you're quick you can quickly use Substitute to take the bowling ball and aiming it towards Villager, allowing you to both return to the stage and punish him, depending of the damage even possibly KOing him.

I tried doing an upwards Sub, but Greninja never teleported on Villager so it's not as good unfortunately.

Not sure how practical that may be but if it does help it's something that can be useful for the Villager match-up.

 

[KERO]

So, cause I'm apparently addicted to testing, I figured out that downward sub kills earlier than upward sub starting from about 1/8 the length of FD (or where the cracks meet for the first time in the middle on the right side) from the center of FD. It's also a ton safer against jabs, BUT if a jab or attack moves the opponent forward, it will hit them the wrong way. For the sake of range, it kills Mario in the middle of FD at 97% and on the sides at 63% (all without rage). I have a desire to test which characters going down may be better than going up on jabs @_@

Does the down strike bounce when it contacts the floor, or when/if it hits the Substitute? I only briefly messed with it but it seemed like it bounced off the Substitute, which also made me think that there might be some use with dairing the doll/log to bounce instead of suffering landing lag. Hypersituational, but maybe there's some potential there.

Also, if you land with the down strike without bouncing it has some pretty nasty landing lag. I think this only happens at heights where the attack's active frames end before you get a chance to bounce though.

No, it bounces off the ground for sure (just tested to make sure and had the downward one start really high up. It hit the Sub and kept going and landed after the hitbox was no longer out). As you said, it seems that the attack needs to finish entirely before you get the nasty landing lag.

 

[Lavani]

Went to experiment with downB 3 to compare to downB 1, since it has higher base knockback (but lower knockback growth) and more damage. Jesus Christ it takes years before you can act after the attack. Doesn't seem to kill any earlier either, but that might change with rage.

It's probably just garbage in general, which I think we already knew.

 

[Gunla]

It's slow enough to where you'll get the opponent once if they don't know how long it takes for the counter to actually counter the opponent, and that's it.

It's a reason why I dislike a lot of custom moves that are just like "Slower yet stronger".

 

[joaoTforce]

https://gfycat.com/UnhappyWhiteDragonfly So 2 matches in and I already got my first upwards sub kill against a sheik! (sorry for low quality)

 

[iVoltage]

I never knew you could use sub this way! I've been looking for reasons to keep playing greninja after they removed everything that made him good and fun to me. I'm going to try this out when I can.

 

[FullMoon]

Shulk mains better be more careful with his recovery against Greninja from now on

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Shulk mains better be more careful with his recovery against Greninja from now on

Holy crud. That's brilliant!

 

[Lavani]

Very nice.

Shulk's one of my favorite characters to fight with Greninja. Ike's a close second because Aether is so free to Hydro Pump before he can grab the ledge.

 

[FullMoon]

I also did this just because I could

As you can imagine I wasn't exactly taking anything seriously. Such is the joy of playing with friends.

 

[Marilink]

In general, Shulk is a very easy character to gimp with HP...granted you can get past his Wall of Nairs long enough to get him off-stage.

And that Substitute edge-guard is brilliant, FullMoon. Makes me wonder what other character you could catch with that.

 

[FullMoon]

You can probably do the same to Kirby and his Final Cutter and maybe Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop if he doesn't grab the ledge immediatelly with it. I'm not sure if doing it on Ike will result in Greninja getting hit though. Other than those, I don't think it works on anyone else unless someone really messes up Lucina/Marth's recovery or something of the like.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I think it would work with Marth/Lucina as well? They're pretty much in the same vein as Shulk's.

 

[FullMoon]

Marth and Lucina are usually better about going straight to the edge without hitting you in the process. Even if they did hit you, they would likely grab the ledge in time to dodge the counter. Unless somebody messes up their recovery enough to make them go over the ledge you're likely not going to counter it.

 

[Lavani]

It might work on Kirby, I don't think it'd work on Meta Knight, and it definitely wouldn't work on Marcina.

Shulk's susceptible since his upB doesn't sweetspot until really late in the animation, aside from a weird instance in the first few frames. Offhand the only other recovery I can think of like that is Little Mac's.

EDIT: Kinda 'd

 

[KERO]

Guys! I beat a Ness main today!

Oh, and I also placed 4th in a 50 man tourney going solely Greninja minus two matches in pools.

Now, I need MK help, though.