Social The Perfect Specimen Of A Man Returns!- A Wario Return Thread

[Sari]

Look at how happy Wario is when using neutral air. He's having the time of his life now.

 

[Rakurai]

Wario apparently heals from eating projectiles now judging from the healing sound effect/sparkles when he ate Piranha Plant's spike ball in its gameplay video.

Now I just need to know if that powers up his waft.

 

[Treked]

EDIT: Wario seems to have some armor in his 'jump from Bike' animation. I forget, was that there in Smash 4?

I remember being able to ignore any sort of knockback from Ness's PK Fire while riding the bike don't know if it's the same type of armor though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Eating the bike does not heal

That is rather odd, since in Smash 3DS / Wii U, Wario did heal 1% damage whenever he ate the Wario Bike. So it's not like eating the bike was going to help lower his damage meter much.

 

[C-G]

Tires also do not heal

EDIT: More places having the game. If anyone can make it to any of these areas, let us know. I have things for you to test.

 

[Sari]

If anyone can go to one of the demos I'd like to know if the instant bike spawn trick with the ledge still works. I've been seeing clips of the bike being used in the air and unless I'm mistaken I think the bike physics may have changed a bit. I'm worried it'll disturb the bike spawn trick. Also if possible I'd like to know if there are any new Wario songs.

On a side note I can't believe they actually put a Wario wafting clip in this commercial. The people in the commercial look so excited about it.

 

[C-G]

Had a dream last night that Dthrow buried just like K Rool and ROB. Boy what a game changer that would be.

 

[MERPIS]

Had a dream last night that Dthrow buried just like K Rool and ROB. Boy what a game changer that would be.

Rob's dthrow isn't as good as it could've been

 

[C-G]

More WAH. Notably, hitting the edge of a stage with the bike to quick spawn it now causes a stunned state

 

[Sari]

Seems we will definitely have to rely less on the bike this time around. I'm worried since we'll occasionally get situations like 4:15 from the first video and bike tossing will be less reliable due to the bike cool down and the stun state. I'm not sure what to think of these changes.

 

[C-G]

I'll gladly take a nerf to Bike for an improvement of a lot of his normals and having a pretty damn good dash attack

EDIT: Looks like they massively decreased the turnaround of the Bike and it MIGHT be air possible now. You can see it at the beginning of this match

 

[WarioJim]

I'll gladly take a nerf to Bike for an improvement of a lot of his normals and having a pretty damn good dash attack

EDIT: Looks like they massively decreased the turnaround of the Bike and it MIGHT be air possible now. You can see it at the beginning of this match

In that same clip at 2:18, Wario gets healed when eating the bike. No other video so far shows him getting healed for it, so it makes me wonder what's up with that?

EDIT: Also seen clearly here at 5:40 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdaxUSIEwLI

 

[C-G]

Compiling Move changes. Note future editing will happen:

-The biggest story thus far for WAH is how his Nair got better. In Smash 4, the hitbox was tiny for the first hit, which lasted exactly one frame when it first came out before taking 15 frames for the sex kick portion to come in. For visualization's sake, it was from when he spun until he finished his twirl that he just had no hitbox. Now, the original twirl stays out until it transitions to his belly hitbox. Combined with how his jumpsquat got cut down, Nair is an actual reversal tool and oppression tool.

-Usmash now covers the entire arc around Wario, instead of stopping 70% of the way in and missing the front

-Fsmash, Utilt and Bair got speed improvements. Any moves where he looked like he just lagged in place for a janky effect have been cut down severely and he no long looks like he's trying to be GnW

-Dair got a range increase, as now Wario puts his hands together above (below?) his head when he drills. Also Dair-> Waft combo might be dead.

-Bike doesn't bounce when tossed as an item anymore, nor does it slide very far. The amount of time you have to act after jumping from the bike has decreased and you seem to be able to act sooner (might be placebo, but plausible). You can't freely insta-spawn the bike by Reverse Bing into the ledge, as now you enter a mini stunned animation.

 

[Sari]

EDIT: Looks like they massively decreased the turnaround of the Bike and it MIGHT be air possible now. You can see it at the beginning of this match

I think that's just due to Lylat Cruise's slopes. You could do it in Smash 4 as well. https://youtu.be/0_kz4pqciAo?t=129

In that same clip at 2:18, Wario gets healed when eating the bike. No other video so far shows him getting healed for it, so it makes me wonder what's up with that?

I also saw it happen in this video: https://youtu.be/IsQNkLbq5Fw?t=85

I have no idea why it didn't heal in the other videos. Maybe the bike has to take damage or something so that it counts as a healing item.

 

[Shmebulock]

Maybe eating the bike only heals in 1 v 1? Any footage to contest this?

 

[Sari]

Some questions/observations about f-air:

1. Does it trip now? In this video at the 11 second mark, Wario hits Ness with f-air and Ness stumbles on the ground.

2. Does it mess with Wario's hurtbox? In this video at about 16 seconds in, Wario clips through the platform while performing f-air. Not sure if it's an issue with the move or Skyworld's platforms.

 

[C-G]

It does seem to Trip Ness. A pity it will probably go the way of DK's Dtilt and at higher percents never trip. Imagine getting a trip and comboing into Waft from it.

As for Hurtbox, it's probably the same Hurtbox it always is. Limb extensions usually lack a solid area of interaction with the ground and whatnot compared to the main body. What's more important in that video to me is that Fair stops Gyro cold.

 

[C-G]

Alright, seems Wario Bash is the kill move we were looking for. It does good knockback to Chrom who was at 74% and absolutely deletes Wolf at 150.

You can see it in action at 2:04, where it gets a kill confirm from Fair tripping, which is indeed a thing.

Also they added a Smoking Effect to the Bike to show how damaged it is.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The nerf to the Wario Bike's respawn time seems unnecessary, since it's not like he was that great in Smash 3DS / Wii U anyway.

 

[C-G]

The nerf to the Wario Bike's respawn time seems unnecessary, since it's not like he was that great in Smash 3DS / Wii U anyway.

It's a hit to his recovery, something Sakurai is doing across the board.

 

[Jeck]

Probably for the best if we are to ever take magnet hands seriously. Wario still has some clutch recovery tools in the scheme of things

 

[Spinosaurus]

It's a good change to make bike more committal. I'm alright with it, cuz the move is hella braindead otherwise.

 

[Rakurai]

I've noticed the thrown bike has enough knockback to knock someone over now, though it still seems to be fixed knockback. Makes it pretty unlikely that it'll ever multi-hit someone if you throw it at them while they're recovering, which is a bit of a nerf.

On the flip-side, the new bike physics make it so the bike will stay almost exactly it first lands when you jump off of it in midair, so the seeming inability to ledge crash might not be too problematic.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ledge crash is fine, you can jump out of the tumble animation. (Need to know if we can tech tho, cuz that'd be a buff)

 

[C-G]

The Bike is/was a crutch for a man who didn't have a lot going for him. I'm glad to sacrifice some bike worth to get all the goodies currently headed his way.

Such as more evidence of Fair stopping projectiles when he defeats KKR's Cannonball here at 0:26. I wouldn't be surprised if it was only physical projectiles though

 

[MERPIS]

Big question here folks, does anyone here (aside from myself) think wario has potential to be actually good in smash ultimate? By good I mean high tier.

 

[C-G]

Big question here folks, does anyone here (aside from myself) think wario has potential to be actually good in smash ultimate? By good I mean high tier.

Wario has ALWAYS been a character that you can't identify as good or bad from the get-go. There are too many shenanigans and odd interactions both for and against him in the previous game that aren't apparent. Do not believe ANY initial impressions on him.

 

[shoff]

Big question here folks, does anyone here (aside from myself) think wario has potential to be actually good in smash ultimate? By good I mean high tier.

Being completely optimistic here.... unlikely. His bite still looks great, and will have to be abused to get that fart action and control the pace of matches.... but... the rest will depend on how much damage we can get from up air combos, are those up air combos practical and reliable, and does dash attack have super armor, and if down air is good???? The super armor on dash attack would be his best chance honestly. It would give him the opportunity to aggressively combat aerial disjoint approaches, which are going to be huge in this game. Cough...Young Link, Roy, Martha, Vampire guy, etc.That would force people to play a bit more defensively, which sets up more chomp set ups, which in turn sets up more poot/combo setups.

Being completely optimistic here.... unlikely. His bite still looks great, and will have to be abused to get that fart action and control the pace of matches.... but... the rest will depend on how much damage we can get from up air combos, are those up air combos practical and reliable, and does dash attack have super armor, and if down air is good???? The super armor on dash attack would be his best chance honestly. It would give him the opportunity to aggressively combat aerial disjoint approaches, which are going to be huge in this game. Cough...Young Link, Roy, Martha, Vampire guy, etc.That would force people to play a bit more defensively, which sets up more chomp set ups, which in turn sets up more poot/combo setups.

His damage output is really bad. You can punish his fair pretty easily, his bike doesnt seem to have much armor or protect from hits like it used to, and very few kill options (as of now) points to him having a tough time in most match ups. Plus, I feel like his waft was nerfed. And with footstool being techable, that limits our combos. I think most of his kill will have to come from gimping off stage. He really cant go head to head with some of the top characters from what I have seen. Still going to main him and K Rool..

With Shadow previously being announced as an asisst trophy for ultimate "Shadow returns as an Assist Trophy" (source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Shadow_the_Hedgehog)

that basically confirmed the fact he couldn't have been a playable character as assist trophies are never playable characters. Now something has changed all of this, leaving room for Shadow to possibly be a playable dlc character.

"On the removal of trophies…
“I came to this decision pretty quickly. I wanted to divide my strength among other things – making them took quite a bit more effort than people might think.”"
(source: https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...eroar-amiibo-creation-removing-trophies-more/)

 

[Spinosaurus]

A lot of his biggest weaknesses in 4 was a result of mechanics.

The air dodge change means Wario actually gets rewarded for winning neutral. Being above Wario and off stage against him now is an actual bad place to be. Meanwhile his smaller frame, airspeed and recovery means he doesn't get hurt anywhere near as much in that position himself. Smash 4 just completely worked against Wario's intended playstyle whereas Ultimate looks kind to him.

Never mind the buffs he got.

 

[C-G]

If anything, he might be suffering based only on everyone else getting buffs.

In Smash 4, he was hampered by:
1) Bad risk reward. He only had minimal risk for minimal reward or high risk for high reward.

2) Bad moves. Nair in particular, but also all his Smash moves and Utilt had numerous problems that made them.....less than appealing.

3) Jump Squat. I think it was like frame 6, or something. Pretty bad for someone who should be jumping regularly.

Now in Ultimate, they fixed his Nair, normalized Jump Squat, and gave him a new kill option that looks mad promising (Should Bash looks like it comes out very fast and kills at an above average percent).

 

[Spinosaurus]

That's really where I stand. I think Wario's honestly in more than a good place right now design-wise, but it comes down to if there's a significant amount of characters that just beat him, which is impossible to say right now.

Far as characters that theoretically love the mechanical changes in the game though, Wario is up there.

 

[C-G]

That's really where I stand. I think Wario's honestly in more than a good place right now design-wise, but it comes down to if there's a significant amount of characters that just beat him, which is impossible to say right now.

Far as characters that theoretically love the mechanical changes in the game though, Wario is up there.

If anything, the biggest nerf to Wario is that Marth is a titan.

 

[shoff]

If anything, the biggest nerf to Wario is that Marth is a titan.

Don't forget Roy, Chrom, Castlevania boyz, Young Link, Game and Watch, Pikachu, Elder Link, Toon Link, everyone with a good disjointed attack, Bayo, Villagers, Ice Climbers, essentially all of the really good characters that we know of so far. I think he has potential but his greatest strengths are simply not game changers, which means he can't be high tier unless he has some sort of spammable armored move or sick combo(s) that work consistently. I am realllly hoping his shoulder has armor. Happy it kills. Or maybe give dair armor or invincibility on his head, since he lost or traded in 4 (Even though it gave us a nice soft spike offstage). In short, too many characters have tools to deal with his best attributes, kill much faster, or do massive damage in a short period of time.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Dair is plenty disjointed in 4. It's fine as is, assuming they didn't extend the hurtbox to go with the animation change. (which I assume was done to match the disjoint.)

Also a bit premature to say he loses to all these characters already.

 

[shoff]

Dair is plenty disjointed in 4. It's fine as is, assuming they didn't extend the hurtbox to go with the animation change. (which I assume was done to match the disjoint.)

Also a bit premature to say he loses to all these characters already.

Plenty disjointed? Down air? What? No sir. It traded or lost to everything. Ever been under an up air happy falcon? I am assuming that everyone here plays competitively??? If not, my apologies. And on paper yes, he already loses to them just like they were bad matchups in 4. Wario never has matchups he dominates. Maybe he will with bowser now that bowser doesnt have his throw kill. I dont mind having even or even bad matchups, but I wont pretend he is better than what he is. I play em because I like em. He does not have advantages over these characters that matter enough to claim he wins them, while they have several against him.

 

[C-G]

Don't forget Roy, Chrom, Castlevania boyz, Young Link, Game and Watch, Pikachu, Elder Link, Toon Link, everyone with a good disjointed attack, Bayo, Villagers, Ice Climbers, essentially all of the really good characters that we know of so far. I think he has potential but his greatest strengths are simply not game changers, which means he can't be high tier unless he has some sort of spammable armored move or sick combo(s) that work consistently. I am realllly hoping his shoulder has armor. Happy it kills. Or maybe give dair armor or invincibility on his head, since he lost or traded in 4 (Even though it gave us a nice soft spike offstage). In short, too many characters have tools to deal with his best attributes, kill much faster, or do massive damage in a short period of time.

Alright, I'm gonna reply to this once and no further just because there's not much point in playing theory fighter right now.

Wario doesn't lose to disjoints, he loses to walls. Characters who use their disjoints to wall you out the entire match and get kills with proper spacing. This is not the same as characters using projectiles; Wario's aerial mobility means he WILL get in at some point, and his new buffs means he will be a better boxer when ontop of them (Nair in particular now that it doesn't suck). Of all the characters you listed, I would say that Marthcina is the only one I could see walling Wario out so often that the matchup is hella out of his favor, and that matchup has been historically bad.

Regarding the others. ICs want to get in. I don't see too much of an issue with keeping them out, and Nair should do a fine job of separating the two of them.

Roy is gonna be in your range enough that you should be able to box with him fine enough. Plus, in addition to Chrom, you WILL edgeguard him thoroughly.

Castlevania has sharp, linear angles. Wario is a mosquito that bobs and weaves like he's Puff. Not only will you be able to navigate his projectiles effectively, but once you get in you have a substantial advantage.

Hyrule boys all have their own flaws that Wario can exploit. Regarding Wario, they've got projectiles and swords to wall him out, but their disjoints aren't nearly as infallable as Marthcina. He has to commit to those options and use projectiles to cover. Young Link will probably be the hardest since he uses projectiles to get in rather than out, but his sword is pretty stubby in comparison, and I don't think he'll be able to really capitalize on disjoints, much like Roy.

GnW got too many of his moves replaced and they need research, so I'm not going comment on that one

I don't see how the Villager matchup has changed in a negative way from 4 to Ultimate, and as stated earlier, he's all projectiles. Skill based matchup IMO. Isabelle's new specials are both more dangerous, but aren't as spammable, so if you can get in they won't be problems.

Bayo was a losing matchup because Smash 4 Bayo was absurd and had Brawl Snake hitboxes. Both of these have been toned down substantially. Time will tell how much that matchup has changed.

 

[Mimic88]

Call me a hipster but it has always bothered me that they never included his hats or his tackle/charge (though I suppose it is his smash) from the original Wario Land games. Like he should have his viking hat at least as a costume. Can't tell if I'm going to main him or Jiggly, or both.

 

[Treked]

I hope that amplifying the Waft with the bike is still a thing.

 

[Treked]

I don't see how the Villager matchup has changed in a negative way from 4 to Ultimate, and as stated earlier, he's all projectiles. Skill based matchup IMO. Isabelle's new specials are both more dangerous, but aren't as spammable, so if you can get in they won't be problems.

The only bad thing about the Villager and Isabelle matchup is if they use Pocket to storage Wario's bike aside from that I would say it's a pretty standard matchup based in my experience in 3DS/Wii U.

Call me a hipster but it has always bothered me that they never included his hats or his tackle/charge (though I suppose it is his smash) from the original Wario Land games. Like he should have his viking hat at least as a costume. Can't tell if I'm going to main him or Jiggly, or both.

His iconic shoulder bash was in Brawl as his Forward Smash it didn't hit that hard but it was fast and had super armor so it was really depressing to see that being removed in 3DS/Wii U for a generic slower punch that rarely your gonna hit with. Now in Ultimate is his dash attack and I'm pretty glad its back but gonna miss making tripping and hitting on ledges with his old dash. About the hats yeah a shame Wario is one character that you could easily picture in a lot of different outfits from his games.

Seeing some spirits from Wario Land gives me some hope that we'll get at least more music from that series too.
Wouldn't complain about Wario World, Master of Disguise or more WarioWare music though.

EDIT: Huh... Don't know why the images aren't showing.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51jSErA9zSL.jpg
https://pre00.deviantart.net/e760/t...of_disguise_wario_by_shadowgarion-d65ikdb.png

 

[Rakurai]

I hope that amplifying the Waft with the bike is still a thing.

I've seen a lot of goofy non-Wario KOs occur a result of hitlag from hitting items or Olimar's Pikmin, so I'd assume you can still waft the bike as a silly edgeguard option.