~The Olimar Matchup Thread~Review: R.O.B. or someone~

[|RK|]

It only has 52 frames of end lag. On top of that, you wouldn't know when we'd hit. On a projectile to projectile basis, you do outcamp us, but you are still one of the few matchups in which Double Team is really useful, due to your lighter weight and latching projectiles. Especially at full power, in which we can use it to kill you at 78%. At TRUE full power (Onecario) Aura Sphere does 35%, so using the formula, Double Team would do about 21% and kill you BELOW 78%.

 

[jog]

are you telling me you're just going to sit there and leave pikmin(s) latched onto you just so you can use DT which is by far your worst move. the start up time for DT and the time before it hits is so slow that its very easy to shield and if you land next to us but we "don't know when you'd hit" all we would have to do is dsmash. double team should never be used (this is also coming from a lucario main).

if olimar ever gets hit by double team the olimar player should then put down his controller and slap himself in the face. then he should slap the lucario player just for using double team.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yes it's basically unpunishable and so what if lucario "has to" approach (which isn't true, it's really difficult to put damage on him from a distance), he's got good ways to get in

really. can i see a video of a lucario using Double Team effectively against one of the olimar mains on here?
(someone like yourself, black waltz, pyronic, etc)

it's just difficult for me to imagine it not being easy to predict. From the lucario mains I've fought i've never had it be a problem.

 

[Cook]

It only has 52 frames of end lag. On top of that, you wouldn't know when we'd hit. On a projectile to projectile basis, you do outcamp us, but you are still one of the few matchups in which Double Team is really useful, due to your lighter weight and latching projectiles. Especially at full power, in which we can use it to kill you at 78%. At TRUE full power (Onecario) Aura Sphere does 35%, so using the formula, Double Team would do about 21% and kill you BELOW 78%.

Wouldn't 52 frames be a LOT of end lag? On what stage does any move of Lucario's kill Captain Olimar? I'm guessing that's with no DI?

 

[|RK|]

You obviously don't hang around the boards much, do you? Double Team is generally considered a good surprise move. Yes I'd use it. And why would we land next to you again? First of all, we can sweep Double Team in either direction. Secondly it allows us to wall cling without using our double jump. Thirdly, we would not be in your range after using Double Team because we go back to where we were. Fourth, we could use it to dodge any other attacks coming our way. Fifth, we can use it to slow our fall to better aim our recovery. Sixth, we can fake opponents out by cutting off our jump early. We will not visibly move if we use Double Team while jumping on a spring, and it'll look fast enough. Sonics should watch for that illusion. Double Team is crazy good.




EDIT: Yes that is without DI. It was tested in the center of Final Destination. It sends you upwards 80 degrees.

EDIT2: Nvm, this doesn't seem like 52 frames...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTrTZZVA-M

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yeah jog, DT isnt really that bad of an attack... it's not a 'great' attack, but it's not horrible. if olimar does sheild it, lucario will keep moving past him (common knowledge). Although unless i'm mistaken, he's not out of dash grab range.

and yes. If DT hits, chances are it'll kill. Especially when Lucario's at high percents too.

 

[jog]

lucario can do everything you just said WITHOUT having to use double team, and thus not getting punished. like i said before even if DT was use as a "surprise attack" you have plenty of time to react to it. also since you end up where you started all you have to do is go to where the lucario started DT shield it when it comes out then punish. its almost as bad as PT switching a pokemon in the middle of a battle. also how do you dodge any attacks coming your way? if i see you using DT i'll just wait for the pretty little sparkles on his hands to stop then punish. or just charge a smash attack since the lag is so bad. and if you're going to use it to slow fall to aim your recovery i'll just grab the ledge or attack you in the time it takes for you to set up with DT to ES.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah... that's why Pikmin latch makes it useful... you won't see any sparkles... and did you watch the vid? You won't be able to get where we were in time. On top of that, we don't have to hit you to avoid your attacks.

EDIT: Do you see how fast you can shield/strike out of Double Team? Chances are that we'd lower your shield enough to stop you from using Pikmin for a while.

EDIT2: Besides, we're invincible while attacking. And your Pikmin are there to be hit as well.

EDIT3: I mean after fast-falling to momentum cancel. Otherwise, using ES to DT is just stupid.

EDIT4: Onto more important things, your Pikmin latching on to us gives us damage w/ out knockback. And if we want to play gay, we can. Being as you're lighter than Sonic, and at Onecario level an Aura Sphere kills Sonic from the center of Final Destination at 50%... and an F-Smash at 40-44%... let's put it this way, latching on Pikmin isn't a good idea. Obviously your grab range is better than ours, normal, dash, or pivot, your grabs are likely to kill us at high percents.

 

[jog]

i was speaking of it as if pikmin weren't on you because that's how your last post made it sound >_>
all i'm saying is if i'm playing lucario and they're going to use DT as much as you say they should with pikmin latch, i'm going to expect it (even if i don't expect it) and it will be easy to shield. no harm done to me while my little pikmin continue to hurt you.

 

[|RK|]

Edited the last post on why Pikmin latch isn't good to use AT ALL. Of course, we can hit you or shield instantly after the attack. I think the 52 frames of lag are for using DT without getting hit. So you can't retaliate as quick. Anyway, check my EDIT4 for more relevant things about this matchup. Although I'm not sure if your Pikmin beat out a Onecario Aura Sphere...

 

[jog]

telling olimar that his pikmin latch isn't good to use AT ALL. is like telling lucario not to use fsmash (or in your case DT >_>) and pikmin toss beats out AS all the time.
i'm going to bed... i'm getting a headache.

 

[Samuelson]

Ummmmmm....

I don't really like where this discussion is going...DT should never be used even if we have a little trick. It's just flashy and should never ever work, it has lots of ending lag and Olimar can easily grab us for a KO or Usmash us for a KO.

Your Uair beats our Dair but it pretty much has to be perfectly spaced. Olimar stops our AS which is pretty lame. I pretty much never take any damage from Olimar camping me but OLIMAR FORCES LUCARIO TO APPROACH...some said that Olimar doesn't force Lucario to approach....lol?

I think Olimar has the advantage. It's hard to put a number on this matchup though...it's either 60:40 or 55:45 in your favor.

 

[jog]

samuelson you're my hero

 

[Timbers]

DT doesn't work. Stop wasting precious bandwidth arguing why it does or doesn't.

it

does

not

yes it's basically unpunishable and so what if lucario "has to" approach (which isn't true, it's really difficult to put damage on him from a distance), he's got good ways to get in

I really wish this were true, or else Olimar must really have a hard time against characters that actually has "good ways to get in."

I honestly think this matchup is way under-developed. Every Olimar I play, my primary approach is SHAD, fair>AD or SHAD>dair. This **** like never works against other characters (fair>AD is a good fakeout and usually keeps Luc somewhat safe on approach, but fair just feels so discouraged in this matchup because you have to literally be ****ing ON TOP of Olimar to actually connect with it, the ****ers so small and Luc's shorthop is so high, and descending fair obv won't work without giving us gay landing lag) due to Luc being so **** floaty and "telegraphed" with it, but it's like the safest approach Lucario has in this match. I don't know why I beat olimars using probably the most punishable approach evar. It doesn't help when I see Lucarios beating Olimars using rolling as their primary approach, and beating them...it just further strengthens my opinion that either Olimars don't know how to fight Lucarios or just the both of us don't know ****all about this matchup.

btw DT still doesn't work.

 

[Dyyne]

If luc is above you, the best option to go for is probably up b, since uair needs perfect spacing to work.

 

[asob4]

if luc is above you, your best option is to shield/run ;D
i haven't played a luc in tourney for so long. i've only played samuelson in one friendly, but i play dory pretty often. we go back and forth, i'ma be cocky and say i win the most ;D hahah

hi spencer!!! :DDD

~skank

 

[DtJ Hilt]

If Lucario is above you or diagonally above you (almost within DAir or maybe FAir range) running is the best option, for a pivot grab.

Not pikmin chain, dyne.
xD

 

[Dyyne]

No? I guess I didn't really mean best, since I don't really know too much about it, but it seems like it would be a viable option.

 

[phi1ny3]

Phi1ny3 reporting!
DT is lame, it works, but it's everything you could do with DT is better invested in some other type of move. Too flashy, can be punished, only use it if the person has no experience fighting lucario lol.
Hate Olimar, the ground game is too scary, and aerial doesn't always suit me if I can't even hit him much. Lucario dair is actually pretty useful, so long as you aren't poor at hiding/spamming it. uair can be perfectly spaced to cancel, but it's tricky, and I'm sure you have other ways. Don't always count on pivot grab stuff, because a well spaced dair allows lucario to be able to get some more aerial options (stupid lucarios will just land where they dair if it was blocked).
AS is horrible, can't go hadoukening thru projectiles (like T-jolt) with pikmin around.
I don't have good matchup experience per se in this (only have one olimar that I've played, I want to play ppl like weroup more).
definitely in your favor, 45:55 or 40:60.

 

[|RK|]

Whatever, I'll still use it, 'cause anyone who plays Lucario and has experience won't expect it. That and I don't have to hit with Double Team, and I can fake them out with it? Do what you want.

 

[Dabuz]

i find full hopped fairs and shorthop upairs along with a up-b for a surprise here and there to be my main moves in this match, against a smart lucario not only will getting the grab be tough but if the lucario spaces right your ground grab will be destroyed pretty good in this match, generally though oli can kill lucario petty early with blue backthrow+purples everywhere but if he can't then this matchup because really hard to oli because lucario can force oli into a defensive position wherea t high percents oli can't make one mistake or he will eat fsmash and lose nless he is rweally good at super armoring



also, DT will work on olis without matchup experience but smart olis won't approach with pikmin throw unless its with a purple and even then it can be seen fast enoguh to react to

 

[gantrain05]

only good use in double team is to refresh your Fsmash =P

but anyway, olimar is like my 3rd char, and i can say i've never won against lucario with him, its always close, but it seems his range and disjoints are just a pain at least for me to get thru, with the pretty much zero cooldown of lucarios Fsmash i found it very frustrating to actually get in for a grab or smash.

 

[|RK|]

Most Lucario's believe at least on move in his moveset is useless. I find a way to use all of his moves, even Force Palm Flame. I even made a topic on the Aura Boost. So whatever, I can find ways to use 'em.

So yeah, not in Olimar's favor. We can use the Aura Sphere even as just a wall to block a single Pikimn, since our smashes are going to be used for killing anyway. Preferably F-Smash. DT can be used even to just avoid an attack. It doesn't need to hit. While Olimars probably won't approach with Pikmin Throw, they will use it to cancel an Aura Sphere, any size (must test w/ Onecario over the weekend). Your U-Air (U-Tilt?) outranges our Dair, lucky you. My excessively basic technique won't work ;_; thanks to your silly grab range. If both of us are trying to recover at the same time, then we will likely recover better. If we time it well enough, we can Extremehog the ledge to stop your recovery. Stock up and save your Purple Pikmin. Being as they don't latch, they'll do a lot better than latching Pikmin, as we only have a few options there, all rather predictable, either roll, spotdodge, do a REALLY telegraphed DT, jump, shoot an Aura Sphere, whatever. Striking hard is far better then not doing any knockback and lots of damage. Our Aura Boost will more than likely hurt you. However, I'm hoping this discussion lasts past Friday, cause I have a few things to test out for this matchup, and I'd like to share my findings if they work.

 

[Timbers]

Whatever, I'll still use it, 'cause anyone who plays Lucario and has experience won't expect it. That and I don't have to hit with Double Team, and I can fake them out with it? Do what you want.

fake them out? It takes like over a second between DT's activation till the actual hitbox comes out, even longer to see the startup of DT until it's hitbox comes out. The only way you're going to "fake someone out" with it is if they spontaneously have a seizure as soon as you throw DT out.

So yeah, not in Olimar's favor. We can use the Aura Sphere even as just a wall to block a single Pikimn, since our smashes are going to be used for killing anyway. Preferably F-Smash. DT can be used even to just avoid an attack. It doesn't need to hit.

AS is slower, laggier, and less versatile than pikmin throw in terms of spam/camp. We're not going to be clanking every pikmin, and as it is relatively easy to take 0% from pikmin toss, you're going to be the one approaching. You can't burn pikmin off you if you're throwing bas at him, which means you take damage for trying to camp, lol.

DT has like half a second of afterlag after your invincibility frames are over with. Plenty of time for Olimar to shield the DT and use his lengthy grab to snag you.

Stop playing CPUs/wifi.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I've only played against one Olimar (who happened to be Blackwaltz), so I don't know too much about the matchup (I was able to take a round off of him in a MM though... he must have been sandbagging).

Anyway, fair->dair works very well against Olimar. That's about as far as that will go, though.
Seriously, throwing pikmin may be the most annoying thing ever. Acts like a shield from our aura spheres, and that's lame as hell. So do that a lot.
We won't use DT. Unless you fight RK, don't even think about that being an option. Won't happen.

 

[KillerSOS]

Lucario is easy

Spam him with over b and pivots.

Wario is not a 5:5 matchup... lol

 

[Samuelson]

It find it odd how Fair>Dair works so well in this matchup when it pretty much sucks bawllz against everybody else. I don't really know what to say about this matchup...it's pretty gay hahaha

Hey Ian :D

Next tourney we gotta do some more friendlies! Ive only played you once lol

Most of my Olimar practice comes from Awex...his Olimar is pretty beastly though. It would just be nice to get more practice from other high level Olimar players.

samuelson you're my hero

Aren't i everybody's hero? If i'm not then i really should be :D

 

[|RK|]

fake them out? It takes like over a second between DT's activation till the actual hitbox comes out, even longer to see the startup of DT until it's hitbox comes out. The only way you're going to "fake someone out" with it is if they spontaneously have a seizure as soon as you throw DT out.


AS is slower, laggier, and less versatile than pikmin throw in terms of spam/camp. We're not going to be clanking every pikmin, and as it is relatively easy to take 0% from pikmin toss, you're going to be the one approaching. You can't burn pikmin off you if you're throwing bas at him, which means you take damage for trying to camp, lol.

DT has like half a second of afterlag after your invincibility frames are over with. Plenty of time for Olimar to shield the DT and use his lengthy grab to snag you.

Stop playing CPUs/wifi.

By faking out I mean shorthopping and canceling my jump early. And this is why I'll eventually be better than all of you :D I do remember saying that on a projectile to projectile basis they can outcamp us. I know it's slower/laggier. That's why I said a single Pikmin. I know we can't outcamp them. But we do have pretty good options against long distance attacks like that. I know how to play, Timbers. Whine about Double Team all you want, I'll just figure out how to better use it. Enjoy yourselves whining about it. If you don't use it you can't figure out how to make it good...

And Double Team is freaking good against long range attacks. So whereas you may not consider it an option, I'll use my time getting better than you.

 

[Rocann]

I didn't say it would work lol, it's just that if they do it right you can't really do ****

it doesn't change the matchup considerably at all because it doesn't do anything good for either side

talking about doubleteam btw

 

[Melomaniacal]

By faking out I mean shorthopping and canceling my jump early. And this is why I'll eventually be better than all of you :D I do remember saying that on a projectile to projectile basis they can outcamp us. I know it's slower/laggier. That's why I said a single Pikmin. I know we can't outcamp them. But we do have pretty good options against long distance attacks like that. I know how to play, Timbers. Whine about Double Team all you want, I'll just figure out how to better use it. Enjoy yourselves whining about it. If you don't use it you can't figure out how to make it good...

And Double Team is freaking good against long range attacks. So whereas you may not consider it an option, I'll use my time getting better than you.

Seriously?
...you act like we have been ignoring DT since Brawls release. DT is not good. It is extremely rare that it has good use, with no better options (I cannot think of one single time). DT is extremely punishable. You using DT won't make you better, it'll just waste your time until you realize it's not good. Don't be cocky and act like the entire Lucario community just decided to ignore DT and blindly call it a bad move. It's a bad move.

/headdesk

So basically, Olimars, don't worry about DT. If anything, hope your opponent uses it, because you can punish it pretty easily.

 

[|RK|]

Once again, the point isn't necessarily hitting. You're invincible until it ends, and once it does you can shield directly out of it. You can slow your fall mixing it in with D-Air for better results. You can better aim ES after using it to slow your fall after fast falling to momentum cancel. Also, if you're positioned right, you can slide from the sky and hit them in midair while getting to the stage, ledge, or wall. On Sonic's spring we can remain infinitely (till it disappears) still. Short hopping to DT is excellent to atack, especially after an attack with hitlag. THAT is why Pikmin Latch helps DT. At any time, say when Olimar's trying to recover, grab you, uses his laggiest move, you have an instant punish AND you **** his Pikmin. But whatever, I digress.


EDIT: Because we're obviously going to be that close? Oh and of course we're going to stand there even though as soon as the attack (and therefore it's invincibility) ends, we'll stand there? Psh.

EDIT2: Obviously using it normally is a great way to get punished, but with Pikmin Latch...

 

[Cook]

Once again, the point isn't necessarily hitting. You're invincible until it ends, and once it does you can shield directly out of it. You can slow your fall mixing it in with D-Air for better results. You can better aim ES after using it to slow your fall after fast falling to momentum cancel. Also, if you're positioned right, you can slide from the sky and hit them in midair while getting to the stage, ledge, or wall. On Sonic's spring we can remain infinitely (till it disappears) still. Short hopping to DT is excellent to atack, especially after an attack with hitlag. THAT is why Pikmin Latch helps DT. At any time, say when Olimar's trying to recover, grab you, uses his laggiest move, you have an instant punish AND you **** his Pikmin. But whatever, I digress.

You can't shield a grab, which is what the Olimar player will likely punish with.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Once again, the point isn't necessarily hitting. You're invincible until it ends, and once it does you can shield directly out of it. You can slow your fall mixing it in with D-Air for better results. You can better aim ES after using it to slow your fall after fast falling to momentum cancel. Also, if you're positioned right, you can slide from the sky and hit them in midair while getting to the stage, ledge, or wall. On Sonic's spring we can remain infinitely (till it disappears) still. Short hopping to DT is excellent to atack, especially after an attack with hitlag. THAT is why Pikmin Latch helps DT. At any time, say when Olimar's trying to recover, grab you, uses his laggiest move, you have an instant punish AND you **** his Pikmin. But whatever, I digress.

Something tells me you've never played against a decent Olimar.
Here it is in caveman speak for you:
DT no good. Make bad things happen. Many people make punish you for using. It bad. It can be punish from many different places. DT is NUH-UH!

I'm sorry about this whole thing, Olimar boards

 

[|RK|]

This I know, but can Olimar really run THAT fast to grab us as soon as we use it? Only with Pikmin latch, people. It's not that great for normal countering, unless the attack is really slow (Toon Link's Dair). As soon as we disappear, we have invincibility. We can't be grabbed during the attack, and by the time we get back to where we were, we can move again.

EDIT: Dodging attacks is easy w/a Pikmin latched onto you. They camp, you disappear and technically never move.

EDIT2: Do you people not see my edits? You're quoting the original post. Melo, before you posted I had edited it, so.

EDIT3: Say whatever you want Melo. I repeat, Double Team is good WITH PIKMIN LATCH. You can attack RIGHT OUT OF DOUBLE TEAM. You are invincible AS YOU SLIDE. You do not HAVE TO HIT THEM. It can help TO RECOVER. It can kill AT LOW PERCENTS.

 

[Melomaniacal]

This I know, but can Olimar really run THAT fast to grab us as soon as we use it? Only with Pikmin latch, people. It's not that great for normal countering, unless the attack is really slow (Toon Link's Dair). As soon as we disappear, we have invincibility. We can't be grabbed during the attack, and by the time we get back to where we were, we can move again.

EDIT: Dodging attacks is easy w/a Pikmin latched onto you. They camp, you disappear and technically never move.

EDIT2: Do you people not see my edits? You're quoting the original post. Melo, before you posted I had edited it, so.

Okay, here, I'll respond to that:

With Pikmin latch, it is now sometimes not easily punishable. Instead it just accomplishes nothing, and definitely not anything you could have done just as well without it.

Okay, I'm not going to bother responding to that anymore. Waste of time and space, I apologize for contributing to that, Olimars.

 

[|RK|]

That's what I meant the entire time. Only with Pikmin Latch. And besides, it allows for a free teleport when you need it, whether in the air (D-Air is out ranged by one of Olis attacks) or just to dodge a Purple Pikmin (the others don't pose much of a threat).

 

[asob4]

just.... shut up please

<3333 samuelson
i'm a top oli :]]]

 

[jog]

RK Joker... QFT

you've made your point
u <3 DT

now contribute something else or please leave.

 

[|RK|]

I was responding to Melo. But seriously, if you guys don't know how it works, and don't know about it, don't whine. Besides, I have been contributing other things.


The point is that you shouldn't throw a Pikmin at Lucario. You CAN throw it at an Aura Sphere, however. But seriously, the more Pikmin that latch on, the better for DT. At that point, we can teleport as soon as you begin a dash to escape a dash grab and keep you immobile temporarily. Then you will have to restart the dash, and the purpose will have been served. After all, as soon as the move actually starts, we are invincible until it ends. Plus because your U-Tilt/U-Air (don't remember which) outranges our D-Air, we can use it from the air. It's actually better to use from the air period. We can completely mess up your trajectory due to the fact we'd be on the ground as soon as it ends. That and depending on how high we were, we'd actually be on the ground right as we're able to move again. Our grab range sucks, period. That and you have one of the strongest U-Throws in the game. So when we're at high percentages, exploit that weakness. But be sure that you haven't latched any Pikmin to us. While some may simply try to get it off, others may use DT, which can save from killing moves if activated at the right time. Our recovery is better than yours, as we have quite a few options, and if we happen to kill your Pikmin, even better still. Some of us may save our Aura Sphere, because you're quite vulnerable when yanking up Pikmin. Force Palm... can't think of any uses here. Our F-Smash will make it plain hard to grab us, so we may not use it as a killing moves as much as a viable grab defense option. Um, yeah. I'd say the matchup is 45:55 or 50:50 if the Lucario player knows what he's doing. Stay out of grab range, F-Smash, etc.

 

[asob4]

or... we can throw more pikmin, you take damage, then you DT, then we proceed to throw more pikmin and build more damage on you. then we usmash you while there are NO pikmin on you and you die without touching us because you tried to DT...

powershield > luc fsmash