The Official Yoshi FAQ/Q&A Thread -- [Please look here before posting!]

[Mr. game and watch]

So you know how your recovering with eggs and your movin forward and everything's great and then Yoshi decides he'll hit a nice big invisible wall and he stops moving forward and he falls to his death?

Why does that happen and how do I stop it?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just tilt the way you wanna go in between egg tosses.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I do. I'll be recovering from the left, upB slightly tilted right, and not even move my control stick, and Yoshis momentum just stops... I don't wanna make a video, but I can!

 

[Admiral Pit]

I've been reading around here not too long ago (like 20-40 minutes ago) after fighting a Yoshi by the name of Blacktwins. This reminded me that I kinda need to work on matchup data again like I did back then. Unfortunately, I kinda lack Yoshi info not just because he's one of those "uncommon" characters, but he's kinda bizarre compared to other characters, and it's hard to explain.

So my questions are these:

-Is there a recent (and detailed) Matchup thread of some sort of the Pit v Yoshi Matchup? I kinda want to be up-to-date if you know what I mean.

-Is there any Yoshis with at least a fair amount of Pit experience that can help with input on the MU? I kinda have a format on a document in which I get input from the "other side" of the MU (in this case, from Yoshi players).

-Although I did check the the moves section from the "Healthy Yoshi" guide, I was curious if there's a vid or something that shows those yellow spots that represent the range of the character's moves. I'm not really picky about it, but anything can help. I just like being organized and detailed. I know this isn't technically a question btw.


If I can get help on my research project that I'm getting back into again, I'd appreciate it tons. For more details, feel free to ask me, and thanks in advance. Hope I won't be bashed too much. *shivers*

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sadly no, there's no thread discussing Yoshi Vs Pit yet. Most likely discussion in the Brawl panels, but of course we can't access those.

Kinda busy right now so can't make a small terrible Yoshi vs Pit MU, will for now say it's -1.

There's no video showing his hitboxes sadly...

Spoiler

Remember me from Rel_12's forum back in 08?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well, in the document I keep and had since 2009, I've had different sections/categories, w/e you wanna call it. Here, I had stuff like the "intro" of the MU, comparing camping, speed, and weight/power (this one gives an idea on who can kill faster in a way) between the 2 characters, the general basics, a few character-exclusive parts (such as armor piece-related stuff bout ZSS), and of course, the Edgeguarding/gimping part, Pit to "character x" and vice versa. I can send the info thing on AIM or can give you an idea of my format by posting the categories.

And I do remember the forum, but I may have forgotten you. There were quite a bit of Yoshis there back then, though. Thanks for the friendly welcome, though. It kinda makes me feel a bit more relaxed compared to what a few other boards are like.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well, in the document I keep and had since 2009, I've had different sections/categories, w/e you wanna call it. Here, I had stuff like the "intro" of the MU, comparing camping, speed, and weight/power (this one gives an idea on who can kill faster in a way) between the 2 characters, the general basics, a few character-exclusive parts (such as armor piece-related stuff bout ZSS), and of course, the Edgeguarding/gimping part, Pit to "character x" and vice versa. I can send the info thing on AIM or can give you an idea of my format by posting the categories.

And I do remember the forum, but I may have forgotten you. There were quite a bit of Yoshis there back then, though. Thanks for the friendly welcome, though. It kinda makes me feel a bit more relaxed compared to what a few other boards are like.

Still busy with work stuph.
But once i'm done, i'm pretty sure someone would respond by then. For now.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

For looking at our moves, there's no video that I know of, but check out our hitbox repository by toomai. It's REALLLY nice.

 

[Admiral Pit]

You don't mind showing me that hitbox thing you were talking about? I mean nearly any info is helpful.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You don't mind showing me that hitbox thing you were talking about? I mean nearly any info is helpful.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308212
Thought you would've been able to see it, unless you're subscribed to this thread and not going through from the Yoshi boards.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you wanna know what the Pit v Yoshi is like, it's literally just 'oh man, we're so even in every situation, except Pit out camps Yoshi hard, so Yoshi has to work harder to approach.'

It's a solid +1 in Pit's favor.

 

[Admiral Pit]

That's um... amazingly detailed... Sometimes, I wish the Pit boards were very detailed and organized like that. Unfortunately, I may never see that day, at least not soon if we're lucky. I appreciate it. All I gotta do is find some input bout the Matchup (if possible), and I'll be 1 step closer to finishing this thing.

As for being able to see it, maybe I was a bit blind since each board has their own unique way of naming certain guides. Still impressive on the move data. I mean I couldn't even be that detailed.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I would be more detailed, but I really dont play the MU too much as I only have one Pit player in my scene and he's not really that amazing. I have played KiraFlax, Krystedez, and Earth (the Japanese Pit) though, so I've played the better Pit players and I can tell you, it's most definitely not that bad for Yoshi, but noticeably slightly in Pit's favor. Pit outcamps hard, up close they both wreck/combo each other (basically whoever hits the other first up close, whether through better spacing or a punish), and they both have similar kill potential. Yoshi is generally more mobile, but Pit's glide makes up for a lot of it and his run speed is still quite good, they both have very similar range on their moves so no one is really out-ranging the other, etc.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I see. Well anything's better than nothing.

Oh, and I know the MU's +1 our favor (is it 55:45 or 60:40 in basic ratio terms), but I just prefer the more-detailed way, you know. Knowing what to watch for, how to gimp and not be gimped, if you can CG or not, what stages to CP/ban against said character, all that mumbo jumbo. Nonetheless, thanks a bunch. The final thing is the Yoshis' input (I do like long and detailed).

Speaking of which, the format I use is kinda like this (it is subject to change):

-Intro
A small introduction of the MU, usually is about it's easy for Pit to win against said character (if it is), or said character is kinda tricky or bizarre, etc.

-Opponent character's Move hit-boxes (In this case, it's Yoshi)
Information on the opposing character's moves and hit-boxes go here

-Range/Priority
Range and priority comparison, and it includes projectiles

-Weight/Power
Compares the weight and KO power of both characters discussed. It gives a small idea on who can last longer regularly.

-Speed (may change it to Mobility or something after what you told me)
Comparing the speed of both characters, and seeing who overall has faster moves and such.

-Camping
Comparing camping potential between the 2, and can include details about the opponent's projectiles if applicable.

-General Basics/Strategies
Pretty much the overall basics. It can contain what stuff the other character can do, what you can do to avoid or counter it, what to watch out for, the general idea.

-Edgeguarding/Gimping (Pit to Character x)
What Pit can do to edgeguard and/or gimp the opposing character.

-Edgeguarding/Gimping (Character x to Pit)
What the opposing character can do to edgeguard or gimp against Pit, and how do we avoid it

-Stage CPs/Bans
Pretty much what ti is. What stages to CP and ban against the other character and the reasons.

-Synopsis, or overall
The closing of the matchup.

____
-Opposing character players' input goes here
I place slots for some matchups where the other character's players can give their input on the matchup, so we get a bit of details and info from both sides.


Based on what you said, perhaps the MU's ratio is 55:45 in Pit's favor in advance, and I can slowly work on getting some more details in, and it can be revised later on? And you gotta love Krys. While many of the other Pits are being quite lazy and/or they haven't been discussing matchups much , I'm just trying to get more MU stuff in like I used to (surprisingly got a lot of stuff on my own), that's why I'm moving around.

Thanks for the help and kindness so far. I truly appreciate it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'll see what I can do:

Oh, and I know the MU's +1 our favor (is it 55:45 or 60:40 in basic ratio terms), but I just prefer the more-detailed way, you know.

45:55 Pit's Favor imo.

Knowing what to watch for

Watch for Yoshi's grabs, his jab, and egg lay mostly.

how to gimp and not be gimped

Neither of these characters are good at gimping each other, so I'd say, dont plan on getting a gimp on Yoshi, and so long as you recover safely, Yoshi doesnt have too much to stop you either.

if you can CG or not

Im pretty sure we can't, but if we can I dont know how lol.

what stages to CP/ban against said character

Yoshi has no good or bad stages really, so just ban places you personally dont like and go places you do like.

-Intro
Basically what you're going to see in this MU is a lot of pressure on the other characters' approaches and a very spacing/read heavy game up close. Both of these characters can camp the other out when one needs to approach, and both have great fast tools up close with similar range. Both characters can punish a read with a good amount of damage, and they have very similar ways of doing so, meaning this MU will be a VERY dependent on both Skill and MU experience.

-Opponent character's Move hit-boxes (In this case, it's Yoshi)
The moves from Yoshi that you're going to need to know about are Egg Toss (up B), Egg Lay (Neutral B), Jab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab, Uair, Bair, Nair and Usmash. While this is quite the laundry list, Yoshi actually does have quite a few options and mix ups, so you're going to need to stay on your toes. As you can see, all but one of these demands that Yoshi needs to be somewhat close to Pit, so the first step to avoiding them would obviously be to camp him out to keep him as far away from you as possible. Now, I'll go through the moves and how they help Yoshi in the MU:
*Egg Toss - Just read the next section, I went into a lot of detail on that move there.
*Egg Lay - A command grab that has great range, very fast, little to no lag, can be used from the air, can alter Yoshi's aerial momentum instantly, cancel Yoshi's jump to 'slide' across the ground, goes through shields, forces the one receiving it above Yoshi, and has grab priority. With just that said, you can obviously see that Egg Lay is quite the dangerous move, and when you partner all that with the fact that Yoshi has the greatest air speed in the game, that means he can come at you faster than anyone else, with the ability to completely shift his aerial momentum at any time with it as well. With it's lack of lag, it is also near impossible to punish on reaction. This move will be a HUGE threat. You'll need to know it's range (which is quite far) and know how to recognize the signs of it coming to avoid it.
*Jab - Yoshi's jab is frame 3, and has pretty decent range, but the reason it's so good is due to it's other properties. As you may or may not know, Yoshi is tied for the best Spotdodge in the game, and if a Yoshi jabs directly after a spotdodge, you have a 4 frames window to punish him, that's literally 1/15th of a second. His jab also cancels into a lot if his moves, like his tilts and most dangerous of all, his Yoshi Bomb (down b), which can kill Pit around 120%. Jab 2 is also a great GTFO move for Yoshi, which can also lead to follow ups due to where you'll end up.
*Dash Grab - This move reaches REALLY far and comes out REALLY fast, it will punish bad spacing, landing options, and much more. His throws also place you in bad positions, which means follow ups are very likely. Luckily, this move has some decent lag, so you'll be able to punish it if it's whiffed or baited.
*Pivot Grab - I personally think Yoshi has the best pivot grab in the game. It has the reach of a tether grab, and the lag of a normal grab. This move is pretty much completely nonpunishable, and can quite easily wall any grounded approach.
*Uair - This will most likely be Yoshi's go to kill move. It's fast, has long reach, and coupled with Yoshi's air speed and the fact that his grabs and Egg Lay all put you in almost the perfect spot to get hit by it, it needs to be watched for. Air dodging it also doesnt work as it is much faster than an air dodge.
*Bair - This is one of Yoshi's main approach move, and is easily autocanceled into Yoshi's tilts, jab, etc. This move can rack up damage quite well, and has a tendency to shield poke.
*Nair - It's a sex kick, and a strong one at that. If you've played any other character with a sex kick, you should know how this works.
*Usmash - One of Yoshi's main anti airs, and it can kill (although it usually won as it can get pretty stale). During this move, Yoshi's head is completely invincible, which means he can usmash through a lot of other attacks and projectiles, so watch for that.

-Range/Priority
Egg Toss is Yoshi's only projectile, and while Pit still has a much better projectile, Egg Toss is very commonly overlooked and still can give Pit some problems. While I could write a novel on the many things Egg Toss can do, and why it's such a great projectile, I'll just summarize the main points it'll be used for in this specific MU. The main reason Egg Toss can be such a pest is that the move actually has 2 hitboxes; the initial contact from the egg itself, and then the explosion after it makes contact. The main reason this is so good, is that it makes Eggs near impossible to Power Shield if thrown correctly (and I'd say almost every Yoshi who frequents these boards can throw them correctly). You cant just sit back and powershield Eggs all day as they will still blow up and do shield damage even if you powershield them perfectly, meaning they will quickly force an approach. Egg Toss can also limit space VERY well with it's strange trajectory, meaning Yoshi can easily get control of crucial areas in a stage without putting himself into much of a threatening position. Also, Egg Toss can actually create true combos into other moves, like grabs, even if shielded, and if thrown straight up, will explode where Yoshi is standing, creating a so called 'shield' hitting anyone who tries to run up and grab him, dash attack him, etc during his animation (and yes, the trajectory of the egg can be altered even during the last frame before the egg is thrown, it has very flexible range), which can make punishing Yoshi for throwing eggs difficult.
Luckily, Pit's arrows out camp Yoshi just due to sheer speed. If Pit has a lead, he can keep the pressure on Yoshi with arrows and those can be quite difficult for Yoshi to approach through. While most of Yoshi's moves will beat out arrows (nair, jab, dash attack, etc), they still can be a huge hindrance to a Yoshi trying to approach, and any small mistiming on one of those fast projectiles results in even more unnecessary damage for Yoshi. Another huge thing that allows Pit to camp Yoshi, is that Yoshi has a TERRIBLE shield, making it usually a really bad idea for Yoshi to shield arrows, and makes Powershielding useless.

-Weight/Power
Yoshi is quite heavy, being tied with Wario for weight and being the 8th heaviest in the game (only lighter than Bowser, DK, Snake, D3, Charizard, Ganon, and Samus), so he will be able to live for a long time. Yoshi also has a great recovery. He has his Up which can he used as a jump 5 times, and a huge Double Jump which has a special Type of armor on it to negate knock back, all of which can be used in any order (he can say, use Up B 2 times, then DJ, then Up B more. He can DJ right away and use all 5 Up Bs. He can use all his Up Bs first the DJ, etc) and coupled with his great momentum cancel and his ridiculous air mobility, he can be hard to keep offstage. When it comes to Yoshi's own power, he's pretty average. His fsmash is pretty strong, but it isnt that fast, which makes it unreliable. His uair is very good, but if needed to juggle can get stale. His usmash is a great kill move and very hard to dodge, but it is most often VERY stale. His nair and down b are also great kill moves, and his fair can spike (even though Pit is hard to spike).

-Speed (may change it to Mobility or something after what you told me)
Yoshi is easily one of the fastest overall characters in the game. He has the fastest air speed in the game, with a commendable air acceleration (however with wavebounces, especially with options like Egg Toss and Egg Lay to do it with, it more than makes up for it) and has a great running speed. Yoshi's moves all come out really fast (Jab, his tilts, aerials, egg lay, etc) aside from a few like his fsmash.

-Camping
I went into this in the projectile section.





Aaaaand Ill do the rest later, I need to leave. Hope this helps so far.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I have a very simple question.

Is Yoshi a heavyweight character?

According to the Smash wiki, he is a heavyweight character in 64 and Melee, but the problem comes in a contraddiction in his Brawl profile..."Few characters are as unusual in Brawl as Yoshi. Yoshi is a rather light character, tied with Mario in weight, but rather small and weak for his weight". But in the "Weight" article, it states that Yoshi is tied with Wario as the 8-9th heaviest character in the game.

So what is it, really? Personally, I would say he is on the heavy side. I've had him survive many times over 150%~. He does seem alot like Wario in this sense, as Wario is heavy, small and floaty.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I consider Yoshi to be on the heavy side as well.

Mind if I use your post as your response to the MU, while not only giving you credit (obviously), but it can be altered whenever you're ready to finish your report? Thanks again so far.

 

[Deleted member]

yoshi is obscenely heavy.
Pit beats yoshi pretty bad imo. Not -2 but like a solid -1.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I now see the mistake the wiki editors made. They most likely meant Wario, as Yoshi IS pretty small and weak for his weight.

 

[Sharky]

Many have insisted that one of Yoshi's major flaws is that - because of his minuscule third jump - Footstool Jumps, grabs (such as special grabs that can catch in the air), and attacks with enough knockback to cancel his midair jump's resistance are devastating to Yoshi when he is trying to recover. This is quite false, however; Yoshi's up-air has incredible priority and super-armor frames, and can be used simultaneously with Yoshi's second jump. In essence, it works to make Yoshi's second jump function as an up-B that hits everything above and immediately to the sides with virtually transcendent priority. People do not understand this because they still aren't used to the fact that double jump cancelling is gone, so it does not occur to them to flick their tail as they are rising through the air. Once in this habit, however, it is literally impossible for any opponent to do any of the above before getting nailed by Yoshi's potent up-air (often resulting in a KO). Also, after being hit, Yoshi virtually always regains his second jump the way other characters regain their Up B. This renders the (nonexistent) issue of getting hit or grabbed on the way up irrelevant, as Yoshi can simply try again. Footstool hopping doesn't count as hurting Yoshi, so Yoshi won't regain his second jump - but if anyone tries to footstool hop an even remotely competent Yoshi, they will be sent into the ionosphere with no questions asked, so this too is not a concern. Furthermore, Yoshi can air dodge with his second jump, giving him the distance of his second jump while mitigating its lag, allowing Yoshi to capitalize upon having the fastest air speed in the game while covering substantial distance. He is also the only character in the game with a fast recovery move that is also a projectile move (and hits the opponent with a projectile that is unrelated to the recovery), allowing him to exercise his projectile game while recovering. In short, it is almost literally impossible to edgeguard a competent Yoshi.

This lost any and all credibility that smashwikia every could have potentially had with me. I'm gonna just say this now: don't pay any attention to anything posted there.

edit: it's pretty damn hilarious, though XD

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Smash wiki is only good for slang.


"whats johning mean? *wiki*"

 

[Aurablast]

As for me, I would say mostly 60-40 Pit's favor.

The biggest problems for me in this MU is :
- Pit outcamps Yoshi hardly
- I consider Pit as one of Yoshi's best counter on edgeguard. Pit has just got way too much moves that easily break super armor double jump (Bair/Side-B and Fsmash mostly) and Pit is also good to make some footstools because of his multiple jumps. In the other way, Yoshi doesn't really have something effective on Pit, maybe Reverse-B but it's really dangerous (can be footstool easily after that), but Pit's Uair really makes our edgeguard hard to be really effective
- Pit punishes really better Yoshi's landing than Yoshi does on Pit (Uair > all, including Down-B, except fastfall airdodges that can be hardly punish by smashes onstage. Yoshi has his Uair than beat all Pit's aerials thought, but they are harder to place well, imo.

Hope my English is good. I have probably don't have practice this MU with the world bests Pits, but that's how I see the MU right now, as I have practice it a lot.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I'll probably come back later to gather data, and pick up the more-detailed summaries if there's any.

In other news, I enjoyed the matches Delta gave me on the ladder. The rest, he can probably tell you about.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey admiral pit. Remember when i destroyed you on ladder with Mk, and then you said i was a noob because i used Mk against you

 

[Admiral Pit]

And when you cheated me outta a win the next set, and disputed against me when I won, how could I ever forget such weaselish acts by you and your betrayal? Oh, and you still are noob to me, and a traitor. However, this isn't the place to discuss it. Take it to social thread, while I wait for my MU data here.

 

[Deleted member]

O LOL.
good times.
3-0 vs AP
to be fair, i disputed u for lolz and didnt even tell the mod my side of the story and they gave me the win

 

[Dinowulf]

Battle of the Spikes.

I got a Question Guys which spike would you say is more powerful.

Yoshi's Dair or Yoshi's Fair.

I'm guessing it's the Dair but i'm not sure..


Second question.

What qualifications would be a good partner for Yoshi? In the topic i made before it got locked (I messed up) Lucario was a charecter brought up how is he effective with Yoshi?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Define "powerful"? His fair is a better move, for sure. More powerful spike, more sourspot knockback, but dair is good when autocanceled.

 

[Dinowulf]

Define "powerful"? His fair is a better move, for sure. More powerful spike, more sourspot knockback, but dair is good when autocanceled.

yea that's what i meant. Which one may promise a kill more. I do like the Fair but i find it harder to connect the "Spike" or meteor smash (w/e you wanna call it) i haven't gotten that "Sweet spot down yet"....sorry i'm a yoshi with bloodlust lol

 

[Mr. game and watch]

It is hard to connect, but a much stronger hit. and with Dair being a multi-hit move, people can SDI out of it, and not get killed.

 

[Dinowulf]

It is hard to connect, but a much stronger hit. and with Dair being a multi-hit move, people can SDI out of it, and not get killed.

okay good then i been doing right applying Fair into my playstyle. I'm about to post some vids in that Yoshi video topic mind critique my yoshi there?

 

[Aurablast]

I would say Fair and Dair both don't really kill if the opponent has reflexes, as for me they both have the same killing potential, it mostly depends on the situation and the % on the guy who took damage.

As for the second question (the best Yoshi teamate in 2v2), I don't know officially, but as for me, the best choices are MK (really ? =D), DK (really love these two together, I think they complete very well their weekness if they mix up), Marth and Lucario. I also like pretty much Double Yoshi, Yoshi+Luigi & Yoshi+G&W. I've never tested, but I think that ROB can be a good choice also (I think he can mostly help Yoshi when he is in trouble offstage, with lazer to hit Yoshi's opponent, or Uair if he's near to get Yoshi back onstage)

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I did Yoshi+Snake last weekend!






We got double-eliminated.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi+Ness is godlike, Ive won local tournaments going Yoshi+Ness (which goes to show how good they are together as Im only like, #8 in state and the Ness I team with isnt even ranked).

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Go critique me scrub.

 

[Sharky]

yoshi+ness is really fun to play

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo though, the top characters for Yoshi to team with in order are:
1. Meta Knight
2. Lucario
3. Olimar
4. Wario
5. Ness

I think double Yoshi is probably up there just due to the fact that other Yoshi players know how to team with another Yoshi better due to their character knowledge, but if you're assuming your teammate knows what to do with Yoshi on their side I wouldnt say double Yoshi is a top choice, maybe Top 10 though....

 

[~Firefly~]

maybe Top 10 though....

no

no

no

no.

Double Yoshi can be a funny team, but it's by no means good...at all. It even gets bodied by double Ike.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I said MAYBE, as in I dont think so but it MIGHT be.

Imo its not bad, but its not good.

 

[~Firefly~]

It's not even close to top 10. =/ Maybe top 30~