LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME
Smash Champion
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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Master Knight DH
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 460
The problem with the bucket is that it shouldn't be able to kill below 50% for something you can't even react to. It makes sure you can't use projectiles at all: use one projectile and it's bound to haunt you easily. And G&W's melee warfare is already rough enough as it is.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
we all know G&W is an above-average character, but the bucket isn't what you would want to nerf first, the bucket is a tradition now. The upair refresher needs to be nerfed, his nair should come out slower (he has a beast bair, he doesn't need that nair), and all his smashes need some power ner***e. The bucket, turtle, key, and lid are too beloved. Do not speak of them in such a way.
Yes, it was at an actual tourney (that was me playing). They were playing double MK. We were ROB and Peach. We never stood a chance, so for the second round we just picked double Metaknight and mashed B.
It was hilarious- I wish we could have recorded the crowd reaction.
hotgarbage
Smash Lord
Do tell
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Actually the first match wasn't so bad... its just that you partner lost two stocks before you even lost you first... even so, you did pretty decent in a 2v1 situation considering that both of your opponents were playing MK (and they were Gimpyfish + Eggz)
JLynn943
Smash Ace
I'm sure it's been brought up (and probably shot down), but I think there should be a temporary ban to hopefully get the metagame to develop more. Then, after a few months or however long, re-evaluate whether there really needs to be a full ban on MK.
If we did ban meta the metagame would go in a diffrent direction. The CURRENT metagame would not develope.
Bassically, the brawl metagame would be almost entirely new and we would be working with stracth.
Now if you reintroduce meta into that metagame. What you have is a character who doesn't belong. He would most likely retake control of the metagame and everything smashers did to develop their metagame in a non MK enviroment would be in vain.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I would like to point out that what was posted above is obvious. Anyone should realize that if you -remove- a dominant character from the metagame then reintroduce him, Meta Knight would dominate even more than ever before at that point as no one would be equipped to be handling him anymore. They'd be long out of practice.
JLynn943
Smash Ace
...........
Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "metagame."
With more and more people playing MK, we have less people playing other characters, which means less people developing techniques for those characters. Short term ban on MK ---> more people working to find techniques with other characters that will hopefully lead to MK having fewer significant advantages.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "metagame."
With more and more people playing MK, we have less people playing other characters, which means less people developing techniques for those characters. Short term ban on MK ---> more people working to find techniques with other characters that will hopefully lead to MK having fewer significant advantages.
ShaolinAce
Smash Ace
Dan't ban my MK!
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I reiterate the lack of a point in finding weaknesses to a character not then being played. People are already working their butts off looking for his weaknesses. You don't need to remove him to do that. Temporarily removing him from the game would only serve to increase the work being done on other less important matchups.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
*australian voice* As we see here, the jaguar has been released into his original habitat. The weaker prey have completely lost their defense mechanisms over time. Look at the jaguar go! Look, the antelope expects lag after that slash, but there isn't any! Look it's dead already! The jaguar is almost unscathed! Look, it's side-taunting!
For real though, he's right. A temporary ban doesn't work.
Darth JoBak
Smash Apprentice
The tourney results that ankoku will post nov 1st should be telling, I say if MK has 75% of the points he should be banned without question, 60%ish then we wait
Prancing Mad
Smash Rookie
It makes me sad to say it, but a lot of people sound completely totally convinced. I haven't played enough of the new brawl to play an incredible MK and see how cheap he really is. One thing is for sure, it's really a shame to ban a character. A really cool tournament I'd love to see is is all the people who main a certain character, face-off. Even the bad characters. That would be cool.
You mean everyone maining the same character? We're almost there....
Using the word "cheap" probably isn't the best way to describe Meta Knight. But he certainly does dominate.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
At the logical extensions of high level play, is metaknight completely broken? No. In a situation where everyone has mastered every (thusfar) masterable aspect of the game, is metaknight unbeatable? No. Is metaknight, at the end of the day, much more than the best character in the game? No.
The important part (in my personal view).
At the mid-high levels of the metagame, where everyone has full control of their character, and knows (at least is proficient with) how this game works. Is metaknight completely broken? YES. In a situation where everyone has mastered their own character (to an extent), and you're capable of playing in a skill based, competitive way, is metaknight unbeatable? Just about. Is metaknight, at one or two levels under top play, Far far and away the best character in the game, making lesser skilled players capable of winning small tournaments? YES.
So unless you can play M2K and have some confidence that you can at least take him to 3 games, a comparably skilled player using MK will STEAL YOUR LUNCH MONEY.
Is that worth a ban? I think yes. Though I can understand arguments against it.
The important part (in my personal view).
At the mid-high levels of the metagame, where everyone has full control of their character, and knows (at least is proficient with) how this game works. Is metaknight completely broken? YES. In a situation where everyone has mastered their own character (to an extent), and you're capable of playing in a skill based, competitive way, is metaknight unbeatable? Just about. Is metaknight, at one or two levels under top play, Far far and away the best character in the game, making lesser skilled players capable of winning small tournaments? YES.
So unless you can play M2K and have some confidence that you can at least take him to 3 games, a comparably skilled player using MK will STEAL YOUR LUNCH MONEY.
Is that worth a ban? I think yes. Though I can understand arguments against it.
AlAxe
Smash Journeyman
lol. You almost made my day.
gameandwatch 4 Lyfe
Smash Journeyman
so many people feel strongly about this, so why not ban mk? it seems to be the general census of the brawl community that mk is broken and deserves a ban. i think mk is stupid good, like hella better than anyone else times 2, but it is still early, so a ban at this stage may be too hasty... but not banning him will lead to mk winning every tourny we all go to... i say ban....
actually **** it, soul calibur time
actually **** it, soul calibur time
cman
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 17, 2008
- Messages
- 593
That is WAY too much. 75% would basically mean to the exclusion of all other characters, at which point the metagame is already so far dead that there is no way it would ever recover.
Mooplet
Smash Journeyman
Well, speaking as someone who's completely in love with Brawl+ // Melee 2.0 // whatever you call it homebrew brawl mod (L cancel, WD):
As more and more people come to embrace it (and hopefully when some very well-polished version of it gets adopted as a second standard in tourney play) the problems with MK are reduced drastically. A large portion of the brawl community who currently are for the MK ban will probably join the Brawl+ movement, and there will definitely always be a group of ... purists (is that the right way to put it?) who want to play brawl "as is".
The benefits to this theory are that either
1) The realization of the reasons behind an MK ban will become so apparant to everyone playing, that the demand for a ban will increase to a point where it makes more sense to ban him in order to please the majority (65% or so? not sure)
2) Brawl WD / LC hack gets enough momentum that we forget about this whole MK thing and start living the dream that most ex-melee players (myself included) have every ten minutes: all the characters demonstrate the same ability to cut lag and chain moves together.
Additionally, I should mention that I've tried playing Brawl, and www.mooplet.com has been on hold since about a month after release: I'm simply not ready to play it until wavedashing and L-cancel speeds it up.
Until then, I'm playing melee and waiting for starcraft 2.
...and i just realized that my sig has a link to the most stagnant brawl article site on the internet
As more and more people come to embrace it (and hopefully when some very well-polished version of it gets adopted as a second standard in tourney play) the problems with MK are reduced drastically. A large portion of the brawl community who currently are for the MK ban will probably join the Brawl+ movement, and there will definitely always be a group of ... purists (is that the right way to put it?) who want to play brawl "as is".
The benefits to this theory are that either
1) The realization of the reasons behind an MK ban will become so apparant to everyone playing, that the demand for a ban will increase to a point where it makes more sense to ban him in order to please the majority (65% or so? not sure)
2) Brawl WD / LC hack gets enough momentum that we forget about this whole MK thing and start living the dream that most ex-melee players (myself included) have every ten minutes: all the characters demonstrate the same ability to cut lag and chain moves together.
Additionally, I should mention that I've tried playing Brawl, and www.mooplet.com has been on hold since about a month after release: I'm simply not ready to play it until wavedashing and L-cancel speeds it up.
Until then, I'm playing melee and waiting for starcraft 2.
...and i just realized that my sig has a link to the most stagnant brawl article site on the internet
GofG
Smash Champion
In such a theoretical world where everyone is perfect, Wolf becomes the best character as his shine, when timed perfectly, outprioritizes every move in the game.
You underestimate perfect play. We have not, for instance, perfected the play of Baseball, and that game has been around for a hundred years at least.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Yeah! Wolf for High Tier!
Inui
Banned via Warnings
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200715
Largest tournament on the East Coast, 167 ENTRANTS WITH A LOT OF TOP PLAYERS:
1: Bum (DONKEY KONG)
2/3: D1 (FALCO)
2/3: Basic Sausage (DEDEDE)
4: Snakeee (ZERO SUIT SAMUS
5: DireVulcan (GAME AND WATCH)
5: NinjaLink (DIDDY KONG)
7: Atomsk (DEDEDE)
7: Zen
9. Blue (SONIC)
9. Eli
9. Ref (NESS)
9. Shadow (THE BEST META KNIGHT IN NY LOL)
I guess everywhere else just sucks too much to beat Meta Knight? NY sure did an amazing job at keeping them from even placing high. teh_spamerer and I weren't there and probably would have placed top, but that's still barely anything compared to what some of you claim about Meta Knight dominating every tournament.
You guys would be laughed out of any other fighting game community.
@My set with AlphaZealot being so close: I was nice and agreed to all neutrals without banning FD, which actually gives Diddy a huge advantage. I wanted to see how I'd do without relying on gay stages and get experience fighting Diddy on his best stage. It was fun. He is a really good player and we both knew that match-up really well. He may have won the set if he didn't get shaken up so badly after messing up on Lylat.
Largest tournament on the East Coast, 167 ENTRANTS WITH A LOT OF TOP PLAYERS:
1: Bum (DONKEY KONG)
2/3: D1 (FALCO)
2/3: Basic Sausage (DEDEDE)
4: Snakeee (ZERO SUIT SAMUS
5: DireVulcan (GAME AND WATCH)
5: NinjaLink (DIDDY KONG)
7: Atomsk (DEDEDE)
7: Zen
9. Blue (SONIC)
9. Eli
9. Ref (NESS)
9. Shadow (THE BEST META KNIGHT IN NY LOL)
I guess everywhere else just sucks too much to beat Meta Knight? NY sure did an amazing job at keeping them from even placing high. teh_spamerer and I weren't there and probably would have placed top, but that's still barely anything compared to what some of you claim about Meta Knight dominating every tournament.
You guys would be laughed out of any other fighting game community.
@My set with AlphaZealot being so close: I was nice and agreed to all neutrals without banning FD, which actually gives Diddy a huge advantage. I wanted to see how I'd do without relying on gay stages and get experience fighting Diddy on his best stage. It was fun. He is a really good player and we both knew that match-up really well. He may have won the set if he didn't get shaken up so badly after messing up on Lylat.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Plus that DK probably got lucky also. If he had to fight that Dedede, he would probably be screwed... unless infinites were banned...
Inui
Banned via Warnings
That DK is the best DK on the face of the planet in both Melee and Brawl and he CRUSHED Atomsk in a set the week before and always beats Basic Sausage.
The infinites were banned and should be.
The infinites were banned and should be.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Infinites are banned in NY I think.
How many Metaknights actually entered? I looked at the top 33 and didn't recognize any names.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I don't see ICs winning every tournament... what makes them gamebreaking?
They just give some really bad match-ups to a select few characters.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Who said anything about ICs? They aren't even special WITH the infinite.
Pools eliminated a lot of them LOL. Point is, the top players were not Meta Knights.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
We both know MK might as well be considered soft-banned in NY. None of the top players in NYC use him. NYC is generally anti-MK.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Shadow and Jman main MK and are top NYC players. I saw a lot of Meta Knights at the NYC weekly...they just weren't good.
Master Raven
Smash Master
IC's infinites require skill.
A 5-year old could infinite Bum to death with DDD's infinite.
A 5-year old could infinite Bum to death with DDD's infinite.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I was ranked 4th in NJ while maining Marth. I am still 4th after maining MK.
I don't think MK should be banned, so I don't know what you're talking about at the end.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
inui you are too good
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
But the infinites were banned universally according to you. I was pointing out that there is no justifacation whatsoever for banning infinites universally because they're not gamebreaking.
DDD's as well, all it gives him is some advantagious match-ups.
Which is the textbook definition of a bad match-up...
Why should a bad match-up be solved by banning moves? We have counter-picking for a reason.
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