The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[M15t3R E]

I really would rather be agreeing with other SWF'ers and talking about more happy issues than meaningless debating/arguing.

I'm going to my friend Tope's place for some offline Brawl/Melee friendlies to prepare for my big C3 tournament on the 22nd of this month. Bye all.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I am just gonna say this cause I have not seen it anywhere in here so far.

If you move your shield to where the tornado is trying to stab you, you will NOT get shield stabbed. Thats the true way to counter it. The bottom of metas tornado is like a needle, its that thing. So you need to aim your shield towards it to but more shield power there and you wont get picked up by it.

I do this all the time against meta when he starts a tornado near me and the fast thing I can do is shield. And it works. aim your shield if you can't Fsmash fast enough of he is near you. 2 things can come out of this.

- The tornado will finish up and he will land near you trying to pick you up in it, and OMG! Free grab or attack out of the shield for you.

- Meta wont't be able to get you in it and if he realizes this, he will tornado away from you at the last min so you can't abuse his lag on the tornado recover, and you end up unharm, also a small bonus, You shield wont be eating so much from a full tornado piercing

Though I think this depends on the size of the character? Not sure how DDD/boswer/DK can take that. Butfor someone like Peach, I angle my shield in where the tornado is stabbing me and I don't ever get picked up by it at all.

So this smart was as well as the other options to take care of the tornado is done with.

 

[BentoBox]

brinboy vs brinboy2

 

[Plairnkk]

The reason I am so condescending and rude towards people here is because I don't respect them at all. It's a bunch of people who hardly ever go to tournaments trying to shape the competitive scene of the game. It's like if I were to go to a streetfighter forum and try to start enforcing changes on their game.

Is Anther pro-ban or anti-ban?

But anyway my main point is that all evidence for 'Omg metaknight should be banned" is theoretical. Theoretical matchups, theoretical statistics etc.

All I see are statements like "Mk has no bad matchups" or "mk is too fast, lagless, and strong"

If that's the case then why does he not swipe tournaments across the country? Why are only the absolute top level players winning with metaknight, and even then losing to other top level players who use different characters? Metaknight may be easy to pick up and use and win with at a low level (the level most people in this thread, explaining why everyone talks like they do) but sheik was the same way in melee. At a higher level its more difficult to win because people have so much practice against the character and LEARN the matchup. Metaknight is VERY hard to beat until you learn the matchup, but then it's not nearly as hard. You have to fight him very differently than most characters. But if all people do is whine about him and scream ban from the beginning they will never get to that point and will never be a top player.

In theory - yes maybe metaknight should be banned. But theory needs to be backed by fact and results. I want to see an awful player who cant win pick metaknight and start winning in a talented region. (i want to see inui's metaknight play in md/va)

in practice - there is asbolutely no reason to ban metaknight, hes not dominating anything right now. Only the dominate players are winning with him against anybody decent

 

[judge!]

ok first of all. is there a pikachu player wineing about tornado. im pretty sure pikachu is one of the top 3 chars that can get out of nado. 2nd if you think banning mk will help out tourneys you are wrong. Many players like myself are not just good with mk. in fact didnt m2k win the tourneys with d3 befor he went mk anyways?. While i agree mk is currently to good. there are ways around him. diddy on fd like others have mentioned is a nice way to take down 95% og mk players. ZSS on bf id say is 55/45 ZSS favor. but sadly there are not many great ZSS players to stand by me on that. IC olimar if played right can easily go 50/50 with mk. im not going to mention snake since everyone already knows. with DK play defense dont go charging into the mk hes to fast and your to fat. Take your time with mk with dk time the tilts and smashes perfectly and it should be an even match. The only thing ill say about mk. You pretty much always have to be better then the mk to win. if it comes down to you guys being even in skill the mk will probebly win since...well hes mk


dont mind my typing ty

 

[judge!]

like the above poster has said only the pro mk will win. the scrub mk will get knocked out of tourneys fast. or anther will just beat all the scrub and pro ones=P

 

[UTDZac]

No, I asked DMG, and it's during in his mouth. He was the first person to find it, then he told Bwett, then Bwett practically told everyone he could find. If the person does break out during the pull in, then he STILL breaks to the air, or in rare cases freezes the game. Really though, it's only possible if you do have a turbo controller, and put it to 1/4 speed in the first place.

DMG very well may have found this out, possibly even before me. However this does not remove the fact that I discovered a full proof way of escaping MK's chaingrab vs. Bwett's yoshi.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duzasgAA8ZQ (@ time 1:31)
Mind you I suck at MK cause I never play him.

On a side note, Turbo controller and 1/4 speed doesn't really mean anything. Imagine while in a grab pressing 1 button every frame of the game. Within a 1/10th of a second you have pressed 6 buttons. Now imagine press 4 different buttons every frame, that's 24 buttons in a 1/10th of a second. It is possible while being in the CG to press approx 7 buttons/actions (control stick counts) every frame resulting in an amazing 42 per 1/10 of a second. Why are so many buttons so fast necessary? Because each button/action pressed during a grab reduces the time you are in the grab.

Therefore it is possible to escape a grab so quickly that the "grab release" does not trigger or have effect. You simply pop out on the ground right next to Yoshi. Given human reaction time to the first initial grab of Yoshi, you probably won't break out from the first grab. You can however break out of all subsequent grabs because you know exactly when to start spamming buttons. And if you are quick enough for the first grab, Yoshi should only bite you once inflicting little damage before you are grab released for the first time.

Mind you this does not work if you are at very high percent, as:
Time to escape a grab is increased by "Percent" but is reduced by "Number of buttons/actions inputted"

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy vs brinboy2

brinboy wins

gtfo troll

 

[Mmac]

Way to completely ignore my other post of why this doesn't work, and the video does nothing but SUPPORT'S my first post of why it doesn't work.

I know how the mechanics works. Don't do that crap where you completely ignore the quote I made to you, but reply to the quote I replied to some other person about the quote I made to you and make me appear to look like a complete idiot that I have no clue that I'm talking about

 

[Naucitos]

At worst then, this ground release stops a little early on damage, but still leave it to the usmash kill on release

 

[Dark.Pch]

Seriously banning meta wont change a damm thing. Its pointless.

Ok meta is gone, who do we have still thats a pain?

G&W (omg)
Snake
DDD
Wario
ROB

These characters are still up there in tournaments. You compare the balance of taking out one character and having these guys still here. We wont see low tiers raising up on tournaments. You still got all the bad azz characters behind meta.

Sheik never went this far, and was just as bad. But look at who was beating up sheik. Marth fox and falco. and even smart Peachs got at sheik. and Sheik was so broken. And not even made TOP tier.

People don't understand having characters being used so much helps you learn them better. I played so many of them whoring metas that I learned the match up faster than my easier ones for Peach. meta has weaknesses and they have to be abused. How? Pick up your character and figure it out.

Peach Vs meta is not a pretty match up for me at all. But I took the time from all my wins and loses against one to learn what worked and what I am doing wrong. The main reason People cry about him is cause they get annoyed. and when annoyed, you don't think. And it gives the character more of the advantage then they already have.

I have seen the basics of meta. Even from the pros and how they play him. If you see something over and over, dont you think you would take a hint as to what to expect? People are just lazy and want the easy way out so they can still have a chance at tournaments.

Meta does not need to be banned. people need to just stop being lazy and wanting the easy way out. If meta is gone, you still have 5 more trouble makers to deal with. Fighting meta with Peach is fun to me. He really puts me to the limits. He always keeps me on point and he helps me get better FASTER when I play a really good one. And when I beat them with Peach, it lets me know I did something right.

This is comming from a Peach main, who people said back then that Peach was horrible and even the melee Pros quit her. Now if I am saying this about meta, then I trully dont see an excuse for characters above Peach or even on her level to complain about him. And if anyone is gonna come and tell me that Peach does good against meta and thats why I am saying this, get your Peach up there and fight a good/great Meta. then come back to me and tell me how simple it was.

 

[rehab]

The (I think) argument is something like those other guys currently aren't viable with mk, or there's no point in using them with mk around, or people just use mk because he's easier/more solid so those guys get are neglegcted, and if mk gets banned they become viable.

Also we're not allowed to compare to other games apparently.

 

[Mmac]

To your argument Dark.Pch, I'm just going to say that I would MUCH Rather have Five Characters dominating, than just one sole character

 

[Zankoku]

Seriously banning meta wont change a damm thing. Its pointless.

Maybe. This is a valid point on its own.

Ok meta is gone, who do we have still thats a pain?

G&W (omg)
Snake
DDD
Wario
ROB

These characters are still up there in tournaments. You compare the balance of taking out one character and having these guys still here. We wont see low tiers raising up on tournaments. You still got all the bad azz characters behind meta.

Incidentally, five dominant characters is better than one, so I'm not sure how well this supports your point.

Sheik never went this far, and was just as bad. But look at who was beating up sheik. Marth fox and falco. and even smart Peachs got at sheik. and Sheik was so broken. And not even made TOP tier.

Actually, Sheik was top tier in the US tier list for every tier list except for 2006/2007. The latest 2008 tier list places Sheik in top tier.

People don't understand having characters being used so much helps you learn them better. I played so many of them whoring metas that I learned the match up faster than my easier ones for Peach. meta has weaknesses and they have to be abused. How? Pick up your character and figure it out.

While this is indeed a valid call, it rather insults people who have put a lot of effort into trying to figure out the matchup and still want Meta Knight banned.

Peach Vs meta is not a pretty match up for me at all. But I took the time from all my wins and loses against one to learn what worked and what I am doing wrong. The main reason People cry about him is cause they get annoyed. and when annoyed, you don't think. And it gives the character more of the advantage then they already have.

This is a psychological thing. I'm not going to argue with it.

I have seen the basics of meta. Even from the pros and how they play him. If you see something over and over, dont you think you would take a hint as to what to expect? People are just lazy and want the easy way out so they can still have a chance at tournaments.

Meta does not need to be banned. people need to just stop being lazy and wanting the easy way out. If meta is gone, you still have 5 more trouble makers to deal with. Fighting meta with Peach is fun to me. He really puts me to the limits. He always keeps me on point and he helps me get better FASTER when I play a really good one. And when I beat them with Peach, it lets me know I did something right.

And this is an overgeneralization.

This is comming from a Peach main, who people said back then that Peach was horrible and even the melee Pros quit her. Now if I am saying this about meta, then I trully dont see an excuse for characters above Peach or even on her level to complain about him. And if anyone is gonna come and tell me that Peach does good against meta and thats why I am saying this, get your Peach up there and fight a good/great Meta. then come back to me and tell me how simple it was.

Take care not to brag about your own accomplishments when bringing up arguments.

Overall very strongly made, but also VERY subjective, points.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The (I think) argument is something like those other guys currently aren't viable with mk, or there's no point in using them with mk around, or people just use mk because he's easier/more solid so those guys get are neglegcted, and if mk gets banned they become viable.

Also we're not allowed to compare to other games apparently.

If I recall the characters that can't be used cause of him. Don't they still have others just as bad that can destroy them?

To your argument Dark.Pch, I'm just going to say that I would MUCH Rather have Five Characters dominating, than just one sole character

Thats how it was with sheik at first in melee. Look where that got sheik.

 

[Tenki]

hay guyz! ;D

Tornado

You fight bad MKs if they tornado you when it's easily punished.

Almost every good MK I play pulls out the nado like once a match, no matter what character I play :x. It's not that great of a move and kinda a bad basis for the argument. The better argument is the taking over the metagame/counterpick system one, just because he's easy to pick up and play... which is gonna be a flimsy point coming from me XD.

Tornado, if being used to be a good shield poking attack, NEEDS to be used in a way that's pretty easily punished. Otherwise they graze you and go too far away for either character to threaten the other. It's kinda like when you throw a projectile at someone just to make sure they aren't being lazy.

QFTs

Yes. I fight bad MK's. Either that or I am actually good and can shield drop/reshield correctly if they come back at you once you go after them. It's not difficult, and since I am a MK player I know how to do it correctly. People are just inexperienced. It helps to be certain faster characters or characters with quick shield/shielddrop animations, but it's punishable with almost every character.

Yesss this.
Releasing shield ASAP can set up for major success when chasing a tornado. Jumping + aerial immediately after shielding a shuttle loop is also quite full of win.

Try it. It's really cool.

I've been to enough local tournaments, and no one but the anti-ban people seem to believe that the tornado is easily punished. Unless you're a horrible MK, the tornado cannot be punished easily. The tornado has enormous priority and speed. Stick close to the ground when using tornado, and the ending lag will be too minimal to punish.



Says who, you? You can say Snake, perhaps, but not Lucario or Falco.

...I typically just, you know, hit Meta Knight out of his Tornado with something that outright beats it.

cold lol.

...

1. If the tornado is used on the ground, the tornado is not in the air.
2. If the tornado is not in the air, the top of the tornado is exposed.
3. The top of the tornado is weakest overall.
4. The tornado does not move faster than a character's jump.

Are any of the above incorrect?

#4 might be incorrect, unless I misinterpreted it. Tornado vertically rising compared to most characters' jumps? Then you're right, it's slower. However, horizontally speaking, it's like MK's running speed, but in the air. That makes him like, one of the fastest characters in the air, ever.



Yoshi Chaingrab.

You'll have to talk to Bwett about it.

The chaingrab, in and of itself (no pummels) is inescapable. The F-air he talked about isn't a jump+F-air, it's a:
[perfectly spaced grab near the edge] > [run+ walk-off F-air]. If you try to jump after him, he can escape.

DMG very well may have found this out, possibly even before me. However this does not remove the fact that I discovered a full proof way of escaping MK's chaingrab vs. Bwett's yoshi.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duzasgAA8ZQ (@ time 1:31)
Mind you I suck at MK cause I never play him.

On first glance- OMG! MK GROUNDINSTAESCAPED FROM MK!
If you pay attention closely, MK seemingly takes damage as he gets grabbed, then he gets ground-released.

He escaped as Yoshi was doing the first pummel and got groundreleased. Simple as that.

So with that said, it's pretty useless for anything except stage control/placement or some U-smashes here and there.

...Until MK is at a kill %, then he doesn't want to get grabbed.

 

[Zankoku]

Thats how it was with sheik at first in melee. Look where that got sheik.

...Top tier?

I understand you're enthusiastic about your arguments, Dark.Pch, but you're doing little more than "preaching to the choir."

 

[rehab]

If I recall the characters that can't be used cause of him. Don't they still have others just as bad that can destroy them?

Yeah, but theoretically people can know every matchup ever with mk and just use him all the time, which "destroys the counterpicking system upon which this game's competitive nature is founded." Which I don't fully agree with, but hey.

 

[leonin]

Hello!!

There are a few MK players here in brazil,but good ones,I personally dont have any problem in fighting a MK,but is still hard to win anyway,but not TOO HARD for me(Dedede player here).

I was a mk player before,and what i didnt like of MK is your weaknesses: MK IS EASY TO KO AND DO LITTLE DAMAGE. I had supreme hard time fighting charactes who have moves that KO easily and chars who deals lots of damage( I mean zelda and olimar).

I think that is the key to win against MKs,explore this weaknesses a max level.

Even if u are with 1 stock difference it still very possible to you kill mk early and get close in damage % by just hitting them,same thing as damage difference.

That's it ,no more,thanks.

 

[judge!]

to be honest im finding less people *****ing about mk. Iv never *****ed about mk becaus elike darkpeach says. I find him with any char to be just to dang predictable. hes like snake now in my book. played so **** many it just doesnt bother me. but when i play a char i havent fought many good ones ( IC pika zss diddy falco) i normally struggle or loose. i honestly will always think its just the knowledge of the matchup. mk is not unstoppable iv seen games where some chars are just unstoppable. mk is beatable and i think in time diddy will be his first true counter.

 

[Dark.Pch]

"Actually, Sheik was top tier in the US tier list for every tier list except for 2006/2007. The latest 2008 tier list places Sheik in top tier."

But Who was winning more tournys? Sheik or Fox/Falco/Marth? And for sheik being top tier at that.


"While this is indeed a valid call, it rather insults people who have put a lot of effort into trying to figure out the matchup and still want Meta Knight banned."

People gotta learn the match ups, and if they still lose then its ether thier character cant take it or the player was better. Like the match up od Peach Vs Marth in melee. But M2K against the greatest Peaches in the world. M2K is taking it. Match up is just hell on earth. And for reasons like this, people counterpick meta. a smart Snake can go about even with him. Same with Yoshi and even ROB (from what I heard, dont quote me on this)

"
And this is an overgeneralization."

How excatly? Explain.

"Take care not to brag about your own accomplishments when bringing up arguments."

Its not bragging. its being straight honest and being real. if anyone was to think it is that easy with my character and the reason I say not to bann meta, that's what I tell them. Cause people do that alot with other match ups with other characters.

 

[aeghrur]

But Who was winning more tournys? Sheik or Fox/Falco/Marth? And for sheik being top tier at that.

Well, atm, MK seems to be dominating tournies, like, 40% of tourny wins are his. Yups, something like that. Haven't checked Ankoku's list lately, so it might be off. Don't quote me on this.

[People gotta learn the match ups, and if they still lose then its ether thier character cant take it or the player was better. Like the match up od Peach Vs Marth in melee. But M2K against the greatest Peaches in the world. M2K is taking it. Match up is just hell on earth. And for reasons like this, people counterpick meta. a smart Snake can go about even with him. Same with Yoshi and even ROB (from what I heard, dont quote me on this)

Near even, not even, near even. Close enough to be called neutral, but technically not. Yoshi and snake are 55-45 MK. ROB is like, 65-35 MK at least from what I remember Overswarm said and trust me, that guy has worked his *** off trying to counter MK with ROB. What'd he do? Change to metaknight. =/

Its not bragging. its being straight honest and being real. if anyone was to think it is that easy with my character and the reason I say not to bann meta, that's what I tell them. Cause people do that alot with other match ups with other characters.

Yeah, but in the end, personal experience. =/ Credible? Not my call, what so ever. Just because you can beat a hard match up, doesn't make it an easy match up. Just saying. =/

 

[Mmac]

From the Anti-Yoshi Grab Break, I'll explain it to the best of my knowledge and as clear as possible.

When Yoshi Grabs people, He doesn't actually "Hold" People, but are actually standing invisible and in Midair a few feet above ground above his head. When Yoshi Grabs someone, he quickly drags them along the ground, then scoops them up to that position. If Yoshi Pummels at the first frames when he enters Yoshi (Which is very common), the first Pummel actually stalls the "Scoop Up" Action, so that the character is still on the "Ground" at that state. This is what causes it is because of the stall (The Stall lasts during the first frames, then after the first few frames after dealing damage). Because the character is still on the ground when he escaped, the game registers it as a Ground Release. The solution is simple, if Yoshi doesn't Pummel, he won't cause a Stall and therefore, Ground Breaks will be physically impossible to do.

TL:DR Version: If Yoshi Doesn't Pummel, a Ground Break is Impossible.

 

[Zankoku]

But Who was winning more tournys? Sheik or Fox/Falco/Marth? And for sheik being top tier at that.

While Fox, Falco, and Marth saw more representation and as a result won more tournaments, there is no question that Sheik made a very strong impact on the viability of many characters in Melee, moreso than the rest of the top tier. Sheik was a relatively easy to pick up character that allowed most competent players to win against better players solely based on the character matchup.

People gotta learn the match ups, and if they still lose then its ether thier character cant take it or the player was better. Like the match up od Peach Vs Marth in melee. But M2K against the greatest Peaches in the world. M2K is taking it. Match up is just hell on earth. And for reasons like this, people counterpick meta. a smart Snake can go about even with him. Same with Yoshi and even ROB (from what I heard, dont quote me on this)

It really does become a question of player skill versus character matchup. Since nobody is willing to admit that they might actually not be as good of a player as they thought, character matchup is the first scapegoat.

How excatly? Explain.

It is comparable, in a rather opposite sense, to saying that people not getting far in tournaments with Captain Falcon or Ganondorf are simply being lazy and not learning the matchups for their character to win. It's downplaying the other side with a generalization for your own argument's benefit, with no evidence to support it.

Its not bragging. its being straight honest and being real. if anyone was to think it is that easy with my character and the reason I say not to bann meta, that's what I tell them. Cause people do that alot with other match ups with other characters.

Then you should take a hint from the responses Mew2King gets and realize that anecdotal evidence in word form is rarely convincing.

 

[Dark.Pch]

...Top tier?

I understand you're enthusiastic about your arguments, Dark.Pch, but you're doing little more than "preaching to the choir."

No, I am saying even if sheik was top tier, she was not always winning tournaments cause people learned how to deal with the character. Space animals and Marth at times rained over sheik in tournaments.

Yeah, but in the end, personal experience. =/ Credible? Not my call, what so ever. Just because you can beat a hard match up, doesn't make it an easy match up. Just saying. =/

I never once said it was an easy one for me. that match up is hell for me. But I deal with it win or lose.

 

[Ayaz18]

I understand Dark. Pch's reasons but your comparing a game where anybody can zero-death anybody else (if they have insane tech skill) to a game where priority and hit&run tactics are most effective

It is true that characters like shiek were really gay in melee but the fact that he (it is a he right?) could be combo'd allowed different character's meta-games to evolve in the hopes of dominating both tournaments and the tier barriers that their character must fight against. people like Taj showed the entire competitive that low tiered characters can still rock foxs and shieks, it just takes a bit more time and effort.

banning MK would benefit the smash community because it would allow tournament scenes to be more varied and let's face it, fun

 

[UTDZac]

From the Anti-Yoshi Grab Break, I'll explain it to the best of my knowledge and as clear as possible.

When Yoshi Grabs people, He doesn't actually "Hold" People, but are actually standing invisible and in Midair a few feet above ground above his head. When Yoshi Grabs someone, he quickly drags them along the ground, then scoops them up to that position. If Yoshi Pummels at the first frames when he enters Yoshi (Which is very common), the first Pummel actually stalls the "Scoop Up" Action, so that the character is still on the "Ground" at that state. This is what causes it is because of the stall (The Stall lasts during the first frames, then after the first few frames after dealing damage). Because the character is still on the ground when he escaped, the game registers it as a Ground Release. The solution is simple, if Yoshi doesn't Pummel, he won't cause a Stall and therefore, Ground Breaks will be physically impossible to do.

TL:DR Version: If Yoshi Doesn't Pummel, a Ground Break is Impossible.

Wouldn't this make the CG useless if the Yoshi cannot Pummel and therefore not do any damage? GIven it repositions the MK player off the stage, that doesn't really help much.

 

[Zankoku]

It would prevent the chaingrab from dealing damage but would still allow for a guaranteed setup into a running usmash.

 

[Tenki]

Wouldn't this make the CG useless if the Yoshi cannot Pummel and therefore not do any damage? GIven it repositions the MK player off the stage, that doesn't really help much.

Yoshi Chaingrab.
So with that said, it's pretty useless for anything except stage control/placement or some U-smashes here and there.

...Until MK is at a kill %, then he doesn't want to get grabbed.

I think Yoshi can still grabrelease>U-smash.

 

[Gindler]

I think he meant don't pummel until after the "scoop up" action. That's what i do at least and they've never broken out. then again they didn't press 6 buttons in 10 frames or w/e

 

[Mmac]

Wouldn't this make the CG useless if the Yoshi cannot Pummel and therefore not do any damage? GIven it repositions the MK player off the stage, that doesn't really help much.

Chaingrabbing was never about Damage for Yoshi in the first place (We never really got worked up on a free 8%), but rather gaining temporary control and momentum of the match, while putting your opponent into an awkward position. Plus For characters like MetaKnight, we still have means of gathering damage on release. In fact Yoshi can even Dash attack to Jab, right back to a Regrab on release in modest percents. Plus characters like Ganondorf, Squirtle, and Falco are still screwed when grabbed, and I think it would be physically impossible to break out of after 40-50% when pummelled

 

[DraKmoN001]

#4 might be incorrect, unless I misinterpreted it. Tornado vertically rising compared to most characters' jumps? Then you're right, it's slower. However, horizontally speaking, it's like MK's running speed, but in the air. That makes him like, one of the fastest characters in the air, ever.

That's what I was afraid of. From my own experiences I always thought anybody outside of the fatter characters had a good chance of getting over the tornado to begin with, but apparently some preemptive action is required to be above MK before he flies over to you. Anyway thanks for the answer.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I understand Dark. Pch's reasons but your comparing a game where anybody can zero-death anybody else (if they have insane tech skill) to a game where priority and hit&run tactics are most effective

It is true that characters like shiek were really gay in melee but the fact that he (it is a he right?) could be combo'd allowed different character's meta-games to evolve in the hopes of dominating both tournaments and the tier barriers that their character must fight against. people like Taj showed the entire competitive that low tiered characters can still rock foxs and shieks, it just takes a bit more time and effort.

banning MK would benefit the smash community because it would allow tournament scenes to be more varied and let's face it, fun

I am saying the same mentality and hard work that people but to deal with a character as sheik can be put to deal with Meta.

 

[Praxis]

45 Is close enough to Neutral anyways! Who Cares!? It's not perfectly neutral, but it's not consistent with a 6:4 Matchup either. It's basically just "It's Neutral, but MetaKnight still has a very slight upper hand in this matchup, but not enough to give him an solid advantage".

Yes, it's very close to neutral.

The reason the pro-ban crowd points it out, though, is that, if Snake is his worst matchup, and is 55:45 MK's favor...MK's worst matchup is actually another MK, which shows something inherently wrong. Sure, a Snake that's even slightly better has a good chance of winning, but that's his WORST MATCHUP and they're even with a tiny disadvantage.

MK's worst matchup is another MK. That implies something seriously wrong with his balancing.

 

[XienZo]

Yes, it's very close to neutral.

The reason the pro-ban crowd points it out, though, is that, if Snake is his worst matchup, and is 55:45 MK's favor...MK's worst matchup is actually another MK, which shows something inherently wrong. Sure, a Snake that's even slightly better has a good chance of winning, but that's his WORST MATCHUP and they're even with a tiny disadvantage.

MK's worst matchup is another MK. That implies something seriously wrong with his balancing.

Perhaps an explicit explanation, since you can't assume that dittos being the worst match-up, will guarantee a bannable inbalance without some proof or logic.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Wow, I read these threads, and see the same cycles of arguements popping up over and over O_o

 

[Ayaz18]

I am saying the same mentality and hard work that people but to deal with a character as sheik can be put to deal with Meta.

uhh not really, because in melee when you punish you punish mistakes BADLY if you have choose the right attacks and have the tech skill for it.

in brawl how do you punish someone who basically can basically l-cancel all his aerials? and even if you do, with what? there's nothing thats really going to punish MK

 

[HeroMystic]

Wow, I read these threads, and see the same cycles of arguements popping up over and over O_o

It's been like that ever since page 20.

 

[Dark.Pch]

uhh not really, because in melee when you punish you punish mistakes BADLY if you have choose the right attacks and have the tech skill for it.

in brawl how do you punish someone who basically can basically l-cancel all his aerials? and even if you do, with what? there's nothing thats really going to punish MK

These questions you can answer yourself. But the safest was to punish ones attacks is out of the shield. What you punish Meta with depends on what character you are using and wether he is infront of you or behind you.

I would think this clearly. If I am fighting a Meta and he spaces an air attack on my shield. I would stay in there cause the next typical thing he would do is a Dsmash or side step to a Dsmash.

If he does not space his move and hits my shield, I can attack him out of it or grab him. or one of the safest things you can do is jab out of your shield and reverse Jab out of your shield.

You have to think, and this is what I say about most people who are against meta. they say things like you said and dont think fully enough on how to deal with it. they just give up when there is ways around it. And I just explained what you can do.

Remember unlike melee, you can do ANTHING you want out of the shield. Use this tool to help in fights.

 

[Browny]

VEGETA, WHAT DOES YOUR SCOUTER SAY ABOUT THIS THREADS POWER LEVEL?