Clearly you are not pressing the buttons fast enough. Are you telling me Bwett is not "a really good yoshi"? He could do nothing about it. I'll get a video later today and upload it to the Yoshi boards.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
You mean like marth?
Fair-dair-utilt
what other moves does he have, again? i forget, dolphin something occasionally?
Also, the pro ban people are the ones with the radical idea, we don't even NEED ammo, YOU are the ones who need ammo, we just need to debunk what you say (Which we've done, i must say. If you could bring up points that i agree with, i'd easily switch over, i'm against the ban because its foolish and has no good reasoning behind it)
Thats complete bull****. It is EXTREMELY easy for yoshi to break through the tornado, be it with grabs, neutral b, or upsmash(if they try to go above the grab) on the ground, or nair, dair, or down b in the air. Theres also the whole matter of a SHIELD. This ALSO stops attacks that are not grabs(Such as the tornado) and can be angled for people who aren't yoshi.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Yes, like Marth. With Marth, it's all about fairs. Unless you're up against one of the few characters Marth is disadvantaged to. Then there's strategy to take into account. But not with Meta Knight.
So... foolish and no good reasoning behind it? Well, there's what I just said and also the fact that Meta Knight has ZERO 50/50 match-ups and ZERO bad match-ups. Therefore, if you choose Meta Knight in tournaments you know you have a good chance to win. It breaks the fundamental aspect of counter-picking and that degrades the competitiveness of Brawl.
It's very difficult. Refer to my previous post.
Mister_E im not trying to be a ********, but you're a perfect example of the people who are arguing for a MK ban. You use a mediocre character, and you've been to how many tournaments? You've played how many good players?
There needs to be a place where only very experienced players can discuss topics like this, the newbies spam it up with inexperienced opinions.
If you think the tornado isn't easily punishable, you don't have enough experience. And that's that.
There needs to be a place where only very experienced players can discuss topics like this, the newbies spam it up with inexperienced opinions.
If you think the tornado isn't easily punishable, you don't have enough experience. And that's that.
A smart/campy snake is easily 50/50 with MK. As are lucario and falco. It may even be feasible that a campy fox is 50/50 with MK.
Again, how much tournament experience do you have and on what grounds do you have any sort of right to comment on metaknights matchups?
Because you're incredibly vocal about being wrong.
Frame advantage is not pure speed. It's a relative term. Stop using "frame advantage" because you obviously don't actually know what it means.
Meta Knight has no attacks that come out faster than Zero Suit Samus' jab, which hits on frame 1. You are, once again, wrong. This might have something to do with you not understanding what "frame advantage" means, though.
So he's broken because he has one of the best kill moves in the game, by speed: power ratio? I mean, Marth's tipper fsmash is ridiculously strong and comes out **** fast...
In short, you're arguing in a topic you don't really know much of anything about, yet acting like you do know what you're talking about. It's practically like brinboy, except that you're arguing for the ban instead of against.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
No it isn't. Refer to my previous post.
Having zero 50/50 matchups is heavily debated, and having no exclusively bad matchups on its own is nowhere near grounds for banning a character. Besides the fact that counterpicking characters is nowhere NEAR a fundamental aspect of brawl, MK doesen't break it anyway, since there are even matchups, or nearly even matchups, if you want to be stubborn.
You people act like every time someone loses a match they immediately switch to their opponents most disadvantaged matchup, and then win, making this an odd game of chess based solely on the two players starting characters
Having zero 50/50 matchups is heavily debated, and having no exclusively bad matchups on its own is nowhere near grounds for banning a character. Besides the fact that counterpicking characters is nowhere NEAR a fundamental aspect of brawl, MK doesen't break it anyway, since there are even matchups, or nearly even matchups, if you want to be stubborn.
You people act like every time someone loses a match they immediately switch to their opponents most disadvantaged matchup, and then win, making this an odd game of chess based solely on the two players starting characters
M15t3R E
Smash Master
I've been to enough local tournaments, and no one but the anti-ban people seem to believe that the tornado is easily punished. Unless you're a horrible MK, the tornado cannot be punished easily. The tornado has enormous priority and speed. Stick close to the ground when using tornado, and the ending lag will be too minimal to punish.
Says who, you? You can say Snake, perhaps, but not Lucario or Falco.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
for the last time, MK is NEUTRAL with yoshi. i posted this about 50 times and people keep on going on with the NO NEUTRALS arguement. and he is HEAVILY debated with the snake matchup. most people with actual hardcore evidence believes that snake > MK. there has been many other chars brought up as MK counters, suck as oli, shiek, ect.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
What don't you get about you can attack through the tornado? Also, grounded tornado is worthless, and can be hit through with almost anything, unless you mean dropping close to the ground after using it.
Sheik doesn't counter Meta Knight.
Yoshi is 45:55 Meta Knight, isn't he? Hasn't the link to the matchup thread been posted several times already?
I have no input on Snake matchup.
Mister_E: On tornado...
...I typically just, you know, hit Meta Knight out of his Tornado with something that outright beats it.
Yoshi is 45:55 Meta Knight, isn't he? Hasn't the link to the matchup thread been posted several times already?
I have no input on Snake matchup.
Mister_E: On tornado...
...I typically just, you know, hit Meta Knight out of his Tornado with something that outright beats it.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Gindler
Smash Champion
I think he means inching off the ground so that's it's just barely in the air but right before ending it get it spinning on the ground, that works quite nicely.
The description is breaking while Yoshi is pulling MK into his mouth, not a ground release after he's been grabbed and is being held.It doesn't work though. I tested this multiple times when Dr. Mario Guy told me about it. And then it's just as simple as tapping random buttons as fast as you can, then that's not it. I even got a turbo controller for the purpose of it in 1/4 Speed, and I still couldn't get MetaKnight to break to the ground. I can only assume that it has something to do with Yoshi doing something during what you are doing, such as Jabbing on the very first frame as soon as he's in stalling his invisible hurtbox so that he's still on the ground on release. If that's the case, then the CG is still possible and still has other means of gathering damage from release such as his Dash to Jab to Regrab Combo.
At least, that was how I was always reading it.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Enough with the tornado. It's not even about that. Meta Knight's attacks are in general, highly speedy, has high priority, and high range, and decent power.
Good MK's are absurdly difficult to punish because, unlike every other character, MK's don't have to worry about landing lag + their attacks are so quick it acts like an offense and a defense. That's a broken combination.
I can't wait for the hobo12 results. The characters that win such MK-banned tournaments will be more diverse, although still probably top tier.
Good MK's are absurdly difficult to punish because, unlike every other character, MK's don't have to worry about landing lag + their attacks are so quick it acts like an offense and a defense. That's a broken combination.
I can't wait for the hobo12 results. The characters that win such MK-banned tournaments will be more diverse, although still probably top tier.
Anther
Smash Champion
Almost every good MK I play pulls out the nado like once a match, no matter what character I play :x. It's not that great of a move and kinda a bad basis for the argument. The better argument is the taking over the metagame/counterpick system one, just because he's easy to pick up and play... which is gonna be a flimsy point coming from me XD.
Tornado, if being used to be a good shield poking attack, NEEDS to be used in a way that's pretty easily punished. Otherwise they graze you and go too far away for either character to threaten the other. It's kinda like when you throw a projectile at someone just to make sure they aren't being lazy.
Tornado, if being used to be a good shield poking attack, NEEDS to be used in a way that's pretty easily punished. Otherwise they graze you and go too far away for either character to threaten the other. It's kinda like when you throw a projectile at someone just to make sure they aren't being lazy.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You insulted him repeatedly and then had the gall to call him immature.
At least he supports his arguments withuot flaming.
Tell me who is more mature? The guy who flames in an incoherent fashion? Or the one who supports his arguments without calling someone ********?
Dude i am talking about melee.
Anyways EVO had items hence he lost because he doesn't play with them well.
Considering he palces consistently i would say he is good.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
yoshi is neutral with MK. i thought we all knew that by now. both boards agree. even the legendary mmac agrees >_>.
btw, on that tornado topic, every char has a reliable counter to the tornado except for 2, or so i've heard.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
salabob:No, that isn't possible, and isn't what was being talked about. What would break the CG is a ground release.
Mister E: Yes. we know this, MK has good moves.Mk is hard to punish unless he locks himself into an attack (any of his specials) Its NEVER been denied
I'm also sad that hobo has decided to go that way, as its a terrible idea.
Mister E: Yes. we know this, MK has good moves.Mk is hard to punish unless he locks himself into an attack (any of his specials) Its NEVER been denied
I'm also sad that hobo has decided to go that way, as its a terrible idea.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Once again, ankoku criticizes me. If it makes u happy sir know-it-all i wont post anymore on any thread other than the TL boards how does that sound? That way u dont have to look for me out of all posts and criticize me? OMG i wrote something ankoku's going to criticize me.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Are you dense? We have agreed with you over and over. Meta Knight is "neutral" with Yoshi, but Meta Knight still technically wins with 55/45 in his favor.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
What the heck are you smoking?
Marth pokes with fair, dtilt, and ftilt, generally depending on the character.
Beyond that he's about dancing blade and dolphin slash, his two supreme punishing moves (which give him an INCREDIBLE defensive game).
Utilt has nice utility and Dair is a reasonable gimper, but neither are even close to the cornerstone of Marth's game.
Look, I agree with you in that it's far too early to ban MK....
But your argument totally sucks.
You're throwing out constrant ad hominems, bringing up irrelevant factors like personal skill.
lNobody cares about the skill level of the players purposing banning, we only care about which characters are legitimately broken. We know which characters are legitimately broken by comparing character attributes and arriving on conclusions based on the metagame.
You might be the most skilled person in the world, but that doesn't mean anything in a debate, because it doesn't make you inherently right about any factor. THE EVIDENCE is all that matters, and as for individual arguments, how well they disseminate the evidence is what matters, including lack of logical errors.
Your argument was totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and we request that you confine your arguments to the matter at hand instead of taking cheap shots at the pro-ban crowd.
When they're wrong EXPLAIN IT PROPERLY, more expirience contributes to judgement on the issue, and you're more likely to be right because you know more. But expirience can be trumped by a lack of understanding or specific information.
Bottom line: if they're noobs, show they lack knowledge by explaining where they're wrong, just saying, "you're a noob" is a waste of text.
Mmac
Smash Lord
No, I asked DMG, and it's during in his mouth. He was the first person to find it, then he told Bwett, then Bwett practically told everyone he could find. If the person does break out during the pull in, then he STILL breaks to the air, or in rare cases freezes the game. Really though, it's only possible if you do have a turbo controller, and put it to 1/4 speed in the first place.
Yes it is, and frankly I am REALLY tired of explaining the entire matchup every day. Mostly it's from people that just simply assume that Yoshi only has is a Chaingrab, which isn't true at all.
AndrewCarlson
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 367
Actually, both the Yoshi boards and Meta Knight boards agreed on 55:45 Meta Knight. You can check their match-up threads if you don't believe me. It's not that big a deal, since it's more or less neutral anyways. Not a big advantage for Meta Knight in any way.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Yes, Anther, The counter-pick argument is the best argument. Every time I explain that the fundamental aspect of counter-picking in high levels of play is destroyed by Meta Knight's dominance of the entire cast, they ignore my argument. Go figure.
Oh, and Anther, Plaink insulted our character- Pikachu.
lol, fine by me. Only reason I saw your posts is because I'm subscribed to the two MK Ban threads, and I always look at stuff in the Sheik boards.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
Mister, i've referred to you talking about the counterpick system multiple times, none of which you've replied to, are you sure you're not the one ignoring things?
Adum: i'm sorry, i honestly don't know much about brawl marth, i was more talking about melee marth, and the fact that using a few moves does not call for a ban.
Mister, i agree with the 45/55, but how the hell are you saying that hes neutral AND 45/55 at the same time? that doesen't make any sense whatseover.
Adum: i'm sorry, i honestly don't know much about brawl marth, i was more talking about melee marth, and the fact that using a few moves does not call for a ban.
Mister, i agree with the 45/55, but how the hell are you saying that hes neutral AND 45/55 at the same time? that doesen't make any sense whatseover.
DraKmoN001
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 88
...
1. If the tornado is used on the ground, the tornado is not in the air.
2. If the tornado is not in the air, the top of the tornado is exposed.
3. The top of the tornado is weakest overall.
4. The tornado does not move faster than a character's jump.
Are any of the above incorrect?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
*Hugs ankoku*. Lol 10 sheiks.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
Yes, the tornado has different priority if its started in the air than if its started on the ground (Namely, its good, instead of godawful)
It's also a pain to get above the tornado to punish it, and i BELIEVE it can go up faster than someone can jump
It's also a pain to get above the tornado to punish it, and i BELIEVE it can go up faster than someone can jump
"Close to the ground" != "on the ground"
The cg is responsible for part of the matchup being even though, I doubt Yoshi will stay at 45:55 if it turns out to be ineffective.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
You all just brush it off with words to the effect of "nah uh, you're wrong"- without giving a decent argument, or you bring up Snake and Yoshi.
You ask how 45/55 is neutral? 45/55 or 55/45 is called neutral. So is 50/50. 60/40 and beyond is not neutral. It's been that way forever. You sound like a scrub for not knowing that.
What's your point? I think you're missing my point. A tornado used an inch off the ground give a MK an almost non-existent landing lag. The tornado is tall and fast enough that the top part of the tornado is VERY difficult to hit. That's all you need to know. But I'm done talking about the tornado.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
Mister E, you've said before 55-45 is a DEFINITE ADVANTAGE or SOME STRONGLY EMPHASIZED SYNONYM THEREOF, and you now say it's close to neutral. You're not on steady ground to call people nubs at counterpicking.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
I sound like a scrub for knowing what words mean...?
neutral = even.
45/55 = NOT even.
See the problem there?
And i already haev given arguments, but if you want a NEW one, then how about the facst that very few people actually counterpick on a regular basis?
How many characters do you play if your opponent picks a certain character?
neutral = even.
45/55 = NOT even.
See the problem there?
And i already haev given arguments, but if you want a NEW one, then how about the facst that very few people actually counterpick on a regular basis?
How many characters do you play if your opponent picks a certain character?
Mmac
Smash Lord
45 Is close enough to Neutral anyways! Who Cares!? It's not perfectly neutral, but it's not consistent with a 6:4 Matchup either. It's basically just "It's Neutral, but MetaKnight still has a very slight upper hand in this matchup, but not enough to give him an solid advantage".
brinboy789
Smash Champion
a tornado an inch off the ground wont do any damage. its useless an inch off the ground. in order to actually do some damage, you have to make the tornado rise, thus making it punishable.
and also, i've never got this answered, you said jesiah never mentioned the "many, many options" that MK has against a snake. tell me, what are they? dont mention gimping that i know.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
I can answer these both in the same response.
I said it's called "neutral" but it's TECHNICALLY not neutral as it's not 50/50. It's not my words to call 55/45 match-ups neutral. That's what the character boards call neutral. If you think it's stupid to call 55/45 or 45/55 neutral, take up that issue with the various character boards, not me.
The fact is that once you've scooped up your opponent into it, if you then rise with the tornado at the end the opponent will be tossed up into the air and you'll be able to safely land without any fear of immediate retaliation by the opponent. And in order to not be scooped up by tornado in the first place you have to react very quickly.
It's not quite as punishable as you people claim, but at the same time tornado is not that bad either.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
its VERY possible to SDI out of it, unless your a huge char (dk bowser d3). and also, the first hit sends you kinda high up, and you can get out of it by the first tip. theres a huge thread about countering the tornado, you can check there if you want. its not that hard to punish the tornado. as i said before, every char except for 2 char has a RELIABLE method of punishing the tornado. nto sure which those 2 are, but they probably are low tier anyway.
and i still nvr got my many many options >_>
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
I'm not saying its bad, the problem is connecting it, also the ability to smash DI down out of it, and the fact that stale move negation decimates its damage aftter the second time it hits
also, brin, the tornado is best used an inch off the ground, but people seem to realize that you can still hit/grab him out of it, how long it takes for him to hit the ground after isn't even an issue
reguardless of who says 45/55 is neutral its dumb, but thats not an argument for now anywa
also, brin, the tornado is best used an inch off the ground, but people seem to realize that you can still hit/grab him out of it, how long it takes for him to hit the ground after isn't even an issue
reguardless of who says 45/55 is neutral its dumb, but thats not an argument for now anywa
- Status