The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

...there has been no ban criteria on this thread or on the over 9000 threads about banning MK ever. i have been on this topic alot, and you of all people should know.

There has also been no criteria for not banning -- ie, a way to determine when banning a character will cause more harm than good.

It's also relatively easy to explain why it's healthier to not ban with someone even as strong as Snake, because he provides a realistic opponent to strive against while still having vulnerabilities that can be exploited. MK? Arguing that not banning him is better for competitive brawl than banning him is a lot more difficult.

 

[St. Viers]

yun has no bad matchups (except debatably chun li) No credible person in the 3S community is calling for yun to be banned. Why? Because having no bad matchups doesn't automatically mean a char should be banned.

@SalaboB: except that MK has weaknesses. He has no projectile, and his sword can't clash with many projectiles. He's light, and and has trouble with characters that have better anti-air ground games than his d-air, which is a good move, but by no means the best. Many of his most useful moves (nado, shuttle loop) have been discovered to be not as broken as first thought, as you can punish both, and DI renders both less effective than previously thought.

edit: before people start the whole, "projectiles dun wurkz against MK", I will say that as means to directly pressure him, they often fail, due to his size and speed. However, they are still something that he has to work around, and because of that, they become much more useful the less linearly you perceive their use. Instead of trying to hit him with them, use them to limit his aerial approaches, or to outspace him, as projectiles beat out his d-tilt range.

 

[salaboB]

yun has no bad matchups (except debatably chun li) No credible person in the 3S community is calling for yun to be banned. Why? Because having no bad matchups doesn't automatically mean a char should be banned.

The game lacks the stage counter system that Brawl has, and those make the bad matchups for characters that have them even worse.

MK's flaw is not only does he not have anything worse than a neutral, he has no stages that make it worse than what he can cp his opponent back to -- automatic advantage.

Basically, in 3S you get 50:50, 50:50, 50:50 for a best of 3. But in Smash you'd get 50:50, 65:35 (Or 60:40, depending on matchups/banned stages/whatever) MK's favor, 55:45 Opponent's favor at best. So just by playing MK against his least favorable matchup you have an advantage, while in 3S if you have someone who can pull a 50:50 you get an even fight the whole way through.

Yes, stage counterpicking really has an impact in Brawl and pretty much ruins direct comparisons with other games that lack that aspect.

 

[ShadowLink84]

...there has been no ban criteria on this thread or on the over 9000 threads about banning MK ever. i have been on this topic alot, and you of all people should know.

people people calm down i was just pointing something out >_>

I cannot see how anyone would miss it considering the requirements for a ban is rather generic and only need to be adjusted accordingly.


The character causes overcentralization. Meaning that you either play the character or lose or you play one of the extremely small amount of characters.
For example, in magic the gathering you had Ravager. The only thing capable of beating it was Ravager and the decks Tooth and Nail.
You either played those decks or you would lose.

You also have the issue of that characters effect on the metagame. Does he call stagnation? Does this character completely destroy the metagame? i.e. Akuma


Now we look at Brawl'sMetaknight.
Does he promote overcentralization?
On one hand you can say yes. Metaknight is the best choice at all times. While he may not 80:20 everyone like Akuma, by no means is he EVER at a disadvantage. So if I choose MK i need not worry about other characters.
I also do not need to worry about CP stages.
At which point, there is no reason to be anyone else since you risk getting CP'ed.

on the other hand most of MK's matches are 60/40. This is very winnable so while MK may cause issues with the CP system, he does not break the game. HE is still very beatable.

Thats the basic gist of things.

Some characters like Link in SC2 are banned because they are not universally available so ignore it.

Some character like Magneto are not banned because while he is extremely strong,t here are other characters still viable.
ITs deciding what can be considered too much thats a issue. We have crieria but who can say what can be considered ban worthy?

 

[Mmac]

I would say Yoshi is probably an exception Sala. He actually has multiple heavy counterpick stages against MetaKnight, which is probably even worse than what he can counterpick back. I'm not sure, but I think there's one or two more characters with more than 2 Heavy Counterpick stages...

 

[salaboB]

I would say Yoshi is probably an exception Sala. He actually has multiple heavy counterpick stages against MetaKnight, which is probably even worse than what he can counterpick back. I'm not sure, but I think there's one or two more characters with more than 2 Heavy Counterpick stages...

It still doesn't change that the counterpick system drastically shifts the matchup possibilities vs. those other games and pretty much ruins a direct comparison.

And since Yoshi isn't very good against a number of the other upper characters him being a problem for MK is reduced in the mitigation. Plus...you guys really need to get a Yoshi out there and stomp on some of the best MK's.

 

[Overswarm]

I posted ban criteria a while ago. Half said it was good, half said it was designed jsut to ban MK. Then it was ignored after momentary praise.

It'd happen again, too.

 

[salaboB]

I posted ban criteria a while ago. Half said it was good, half said it was designed jsut to ban MK. Then it was ignored after momentary praise.

It'd happen again, too.

imo, ban criteria is simple:

Is it better (More players coming to tournaments and having fair competition -- both are aspects of "good") for the competitive community to ban this than to not ban it?

...figuring out what fits that criteria is what these monsterously long threads are all about.

 

[pastaboy]

maybe there is a banned stage we culd look into that mite give mk a disadvantage?

 

[XienZo]

maybe there is a banned stage we culd look into that mite give mk a disadvantage?

SHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLAND

Of course, that gives the ownage to DDD instead, but Olimars fully approve of unbanning shadow moses island </bias>

 

[DanGR]

A friend told me that Texas was pro-life. Coincidentally enough, they're also for an MK ban

...but here's the thing...

Many of the other states that support an MK ban are also pro-life...

 

[pastaboy]

SHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLAND

Of course, that gives the ownage to DDD instead, but Olimars fully approve of unbanning shadow moses island </bias>

or corneria,

 

[XienZo]

Corneria has close side blastline issues which has been argued that they help MK at least as much as they help other characters. Its kinda like Yoshi Melee, people go, oh we can use this against MK, and then, MK goes, wait a minute, we can use it against them too...

on the other hand, SMI completely removes gimping and forces most kills upward, which MK can only do with grounded shuttle loop and glide attack, so he becomes pray to characters like Olimar. Especially since gimping is Olimar's greatest weakness...

 

[salaboB]

on the other hand, SMI completely removes gimping and forces most kills upward, which MK can only do with grounded shuttle loop and glide attack, so he becomes pray to characters like Olimar. Especially since gimping is Olimar's greatest weakness...

Why can't MK just go after the walls for a while (Pull Olimar to the top, drop down below him -- Olimar can't approach MK that way -- take out the wall) then push Oli off the edge?

 

[XienZo]

Olimar gets into trouble when he runs out of space to pivot grab. The total floor space between the 2 blastlines is like 2 FDs, and if Olimar doesn't fail every attempt, he can string attacks together until he's back in the center again.

Besides, a "while" where MK is distracted is all Olimar needs to send MK through the roof.

 

[pastaboy]

small blast lines is going to help ur character more, mks weakness of being light actually is largly at play here for killing him.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, as MK can gimp you regardless of blastzones, the small blast zone simply means his f-smash kills a bit eariler (though his f-smash isn't really the best option anyways)

 

[Naucitos]

It somewhat annoys me that people constantly say that hes broken because he has no weaknesses, or no one stands a chance against him, yet whenever someone brings up someone who can, people say 'its just one person and has nothing to do with anything and he should still be banned'

 

[Rocann]

Obama supports the MK Ban Bill of '08.

 

[M15t3R E]

It somewhat annoys me that people constantly say that hes broken because he has no weaknesses, or no one stands a chance against him, yet whenever someone brings up someone who can, people say 'its just one person and has nothing to do with anything and he should still be banned'

Where have you heard that? Every character "stands a chance against him". Yoshi and Snake are best against him, but it's still 55/45 in Meta Knight's favor in those match-ups.

Therefore, Meta Knight has ZERO 50/50 match-ups and ZERO bad match-ups. Those who play Meta Knight know that they have the advantage unless they're fighting another Meta Knight, so knowledge of match-ups is not necessary if you know Meta Knight's moveset well.

 

[Justblaze647]

obama Supports The Mk Ban Bill Of '08.

Omgroflmao!!!

 

[da K.I.D.]

It's a weird demographic. The 20 or so Sonic mains that actively participate in/keep up to date with the current metagame as it's discussed in SWF are generally above-average players who can take top 8 in tourneys they attend.

da KID feels strongly about this debate, and participates much in it.
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be more time (...and complete frame data as staple proof) before MK warrants a ban.

also, most SWF Sonic mains are spammers.

we are smart and active, i noticed it like 3 weeks ago.

Also, we're notorious for spamming, flaming, and never ever giving up even when the odds against us are abysmal lol so this thread is perfect.

i guess im not really a sonic main anymore if this is true

lol guys do you know why this thread has advanced 589 pages without any gain? because nobody laid out the ban criteria >_>. not your opinionated ban criteria, an official criteria, if there even is one. and if there isnt one, then how can you ban a char? and if there is, then i'd like to see it.

lol. there is no official ban criteria, because if there was, somebody would claim that it was opinionated

yun has no bad matchups (except debatably chun li) No credible person in the 3S community is calling for yun to be banned. Why? Because having no bad matchups doesn't automatically mean a char should be banned.
stop using other games, its stupid and it a different game, a different situation and different people.

@SalaboB: except that MK has weaknesses. He has no projectile, and his sword can't clash with many projectiles. He's light, and and has trouble with characters that have better anti-air ground games than his d-air, which is a good move, but by no means the best. Many of his most useful moves (nado, shuttle loop) have been discovered to be not as broken as first thought, as you can punish both, and DI renders both less effective than previously thought.

edit: before people start the whole, "projectiles dun wurkz against MK", I will say that as means to directly pressure him, they often fail, due to his size and speed. However, they are still something that he has to work around, and because of that, they become much more useful the less linearly you perceive their use. Instead of trying to hit him with them, use them to limit his aerial approaches, or to outspace him, as projectiles beat out his d-tilt range.

i think its really funny that most characters with this is basically an intelligent way of saying "projectile spam can beat MK"
theres a reason pit isnt top tier,
power shielding kinda ***** projectiles

imo, ban criteria is simple:

Is it better (More players coming to tournaments and having fair competition -- both are aspects of "good") for the competitive community to ban this than to not ban it?

...figuring out what fits that criteria is what these monsterously long threads are all about.

SHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLAND

Of course, that gives the ownage to DDD instead, but Olimars fully approve of unbanning shadow moses island </bias>

i cant believe you guys are seriously consider bringing back a totally broken stage just for the sake of making MK balenced, the fact that this discussion is even going on is proof enough that he should be banned.


id also like to say that I have a tourney this saturday.
if i lose to MKs again, i will probably quit this game.

im also done with this rediculous arguement. its easy to see that MK is hurting the game

does anyone know what advantages wario has on ROB?
no because everyone is too focused on MK
does toon link have any special combos on wolf?
what does the falco kirby match look like
nobody knows... because it doesnt even matter, these are all top and high tier characters, but everyone is so concerned with MK that people arent even paying attention to these matchups anymore this is called overcentralization of the metagame.

im not posting in this topic anymore, because its so troublesome to have to deal with misguided ppl like brinboy789, that dont see whats so obviously in front of their face

MK is such a debilitating force in this game that the amount of time and effort needed to perfect the strats to even go even with him arent worth my time. i have a life to live, and i dont feel like wasting the little time that i have here playing a video game that i dont even enjoy playing in an envioronment that includes MK.
i love brawl but i hate going to tourneys just because of the stagering amounts of metaknights, and the rediculous amount of effort that goes into playing against them. Its not worth it
so congratz smash world, you probably just lost another tourney goer because of MK

feel free to let me know if he ever gets banned

 

[Naucitos]

Where have you heard that? Every character "stands a chance against him". Yoshi and Snake are best against him, but it's still 55/45 in Meta Knight's favor in those match-ups.

Therefore, Meta Knight has ZERO 50/50 match-ups and ZERO bad match-ups. Those who play Meta Knight know that they have the advantage unless they're fighting another Meta Knight, so knowledge of match-ups is not necessary if you know Meta Knight's moveset well.

Seriously? Considering the matchups are discussed considering a high level of play, with both players knowing their opponents character, how can you POSSIBLY say that an almost even matchup requires no knowledge of your opponents character and not notice yourself that its complete bull?

 

[Naucitos]

we are smart and active, i noticed it like 3 weeks ago.
i think its really funny that most characters with this is basically an intelligent way of saying "projectile spam can beat MK"
theres a reason pit isnt top tier,
power shielding kinda ***** projectiles

i've yet to see one player consistently use power shielding to shut down a projectile character


i cant believe you guys are seriously consider bringing back a totally broken stage just for the sake of making MK balenced, the fact that this discussion is even going on is proof enough that he should be banned.

It obviously isn't serious, and just because a few people suggest doing something that doesen't make sense doesen't warrant a ban

id also like to say that I have a tourney this saturday.
if i lose to MKs again, i will probably quit this game.

Grow up, stop trying to use you losing to an MK in a matchup that we have ALL agreed is absurdly hard to win as evidence of anything, if its anything at all, its proof of your so touted counterpick system, and you should use a different character against metaknights than someone hwo has an 80-20 matchup with him

im also done with this rediculous arguement. its easy to see that MK is hurting the game

hurting YOUR game, possibly?

does anyone know what advantages wario has on ROB?
no because everyone is too focused on MK
does toon link have any special combos on wolf?
what does the falco kirby match look like
nobody knows... because it doesnt even matter, these are all top and high tier characters, but everyone is so concerned with MK that people arent even paying attention to these matchups anymore this is called overcentralization of the metagame.

Just because YOU don't know ANOTHER CHARACTERS matchup means nobody else does? i don't know MKs matchup vs anyone that isn't yoshi or DK, other than what i've seen in these threads.

im not posting in this topic anymore, because its so troublesome to have to deal with misguided ppl like brinboy789, that dont see whats so obviously in front of their face

Theres people like that on both sides, you could have picked a better person on this one to complain about if you had looked a few pages too

MK is such a debilitating force in this game that the amount of time and effort needed to perfect the strats to even go even with him arent worth my time. i have a life to live, and i dont feel like wasting the little time that i have here playing a video game that i dont even enjoy playing in an envioronment that includes MK.
i love brawl but i hate going to tourneys just because of the stagering amounts of metaknights, and the rediculous amount of effort that goes into playing against them. Its not worth it
so congratz smash world, you probably just lost another tourney goer because of MK

Again, grow up, use your other options in the game and stop whining. Thats like me saying i'm going to quit if i get beat by another G&W

feel free to let me know if he ever gets banned

Sorry, you'll have to check for yourself.


EDIT: Sorry, double post.

 

[St. Viers]

@DA Kid's post, since he won't be checking:

By his logic, people should never use analogies, nor use examples to help look back at a topic. Even if it's a different game, different characters, it still bears some resemblence to the situation at hand. I'm not saying it's 100% the same, nor am I saying, just because the 3S community thinks x, we automatically should. Rather, I'm bringing up the situation, and letting people conncet the dots themselves, in regards to both how it relates (if at all), and how Yuna's comment about the credibility of the brawl community could be compromised by a hasty ban.

Also, By taking my comment about rethinking the importance of projectiles and summarize it as camping, he ignores what I actually said, which is that camping as done traditionally isn't the solution. The way I see it, simply staying back and spamming projectiles won't work, because once you press a button, you'e commited to an action, and committing to an action mindlessly (as most peopel do when camping) WON"T work. Powershielding is a useful and powerful tool, but if you get the character at such a range that they have to predict when to shield, you are the ngiven oppurtunities to actually hit them, or punish them for assuming you'll use a projectile. An excellent example of this is SHL with wolf. After awhile, they'll shield as you are landing from the jump, especially if they are at a mid range where they can't just let it come to them from a distance or hit you before you can fire.

Seriously, if you lose to a MK this next tourney, it's because sonic has a hugely disadvantaged matchup. That's like saying if you lost to snak or G&W you'd quit as well.

 

[1048576]

If there is more than one character at the top, it's okay. Melee had Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth. 3s has like four chars as well that basically go even with each other, right? Brawl has MK.

To whoever quoted daKid's post: Who should he counterpick? MK is the best counterpick against MK. See the problem.

It isn't hard to see the problem. MK has like five moves that, if any other character had them, it would be their signiture spam all day move. (Except maybe Snake) Imagine if CF had D-Smash or the recovery w/Shuttle loop or Nado. He'd be high tier with even one of those additions.

MK doesn't need a projectile. I don't think I would use it even if he had one.

 

[Naucitos]

104...: First off, he should pick the character hes best with that has a chance of beating MK, sucha s yoshi, olimar, snake, G&W, rob, etc... that we've gone over already, hell, if hes good with MK, theres really nor eason for it to NOT be a ditto, dittos happened all the time in melee, and still do in brawl, MK or no MK.

You'r esecond statement is also pretty obviously false, but theres really no way to rule it out without completely rechecking everything, especially accounting for the other characters attributes such as reduced speed and greater weight.

MK has a bunch of good moves, we know this, but none of them are so good that they are broken, and its pretty easy to get around most of them

 

[HeroMystic]

i've yet to see one player consistently use power shielding to shut down a projectile character

You've obviously never seen Ike go against Pit or Wolf.

 

[ibrium]

Banning Metaknight only seems like a viable option now because of how exasperated players are getting in playing against him. The fact is, if Metaknight had 2 or 3 neutral counters, the debate going on now would not be. Players would not be as adamant to remove him if he was counter-able.

That being said, removing him less than a year after the games release is a bit over-reaching. Instead of calling for blood, what the community should concentrate on is finding ways in which Metaknight may actually be counter-picked (such as the Yoshi example being played around with right now). The counter-pick system is an important part of Brawl- If MK breaks that, then obviously there will be problems. If we exhaust all possibilities of countering MK, then perhaps the boards should consider banning. But until then, banning Metaknight is simply the easiest way out of a problem that people would rather just ignore.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Sigh. Mk has no bad matchups and will never have one. If u think brawl hasnt developed enough already u should do more homework. Brawl's metagame has reached its highest peak already and i highly doubt that some miracle AT makes Mk have neutral matchups against anyone of the cast. I voted no but i wish i could change my vote right now...>__>

 

[BentoBox]

Stop using dark blue font on a greyish/black background D:

 

[TLMSheikant]

BentoBox: i love my sig. TL is blue because i use blue TL.

 

[ibrium]

Sigh. Mk has no bad matchups and will never have one. If u think brawl hasnt developed enough already u should do more homework. Brawl's metagame has reached its highest peak already and i highly doubt that some miracle AT makes Mk have neutral matchups against anyone of the cast. I voted no but i wish i could change my vote right now...>__>

I tend to believe that things never stop developing. I would argue that even in Melee, with its deeply-rooted systems, is subject to minor shocks now and again.

Everyone is so sure MK is unbeatable that they likely have stopped looking for even small glimmers of possibility.

They're giving up. And I don't think 9 months in is a fair time to do so.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Mk has frame advantage, broken kill moves *cough* downsmash* cough*, broken priority because his attacks cant even clank, he gimps all the cast easily, has an insane dash grab and his grab game leads to aerials and MT, has no neutral or bad matchups, has the most tournament winnings than any other character, has the most broken move ever that gives him **** matchups *cough* MT on D3*cough*. It is highly unlikely that we will find some kind of AT in the future that makes him have bad matchups but it is a possibility, just very unlikely. And everybody is using him (even me ocasionally to win some hard matchups at tourneys). So i say he should be banned already the sooner the better so that mk mains can find another main early on.

 

[Zankoku]

Mk has frame advantage

This phrase makes absolutely no sense on its own.

broken kill moves *cough* downsmash* cough*

What makes the dsmash broken as a kill move?

broken priority because his attacks cant even clank

This is actually incorrect.

has the most tournament winnings than any other character

It's called being the best character in the game.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ankoku why do u always criticize me? W/e he does have frame advantage (speed).His attacks all come out on earlier frames than the rest of the cast. Downsmash is one of the best kill moves in the game. Because of its speed: power ratio. Good mks wont spam this move until high percents. I know hes the best and most broken character in the game already.

 

[Gindler]

If he does get banned all the MK main will probably just go G&W. He's much more of a hassle than weak little MK...

As for MK's Dsmash being one of the best kill moves in the game. G&W's is more spammable, has less cool down, better range, and more power...

 

[Praxis]

Everyone is so sure MK is unbeatable that they likely have stopped looking for even small glimmers of possibility.

If you think this, you're kidding yourself. Every character board is searching for anti-MK strategies, because any character who becomes the MK counter instantly shoots up the tier list and becomes very good.

Every time they find one, the MK's develop an even better counter-strategy.

If he does get banned all the MK main will probably just go G&W. He's much more of a hassle than weak little MK...

As for MK's Dsmash being one of the best kill moves in the game. G&W's is more spammable, has less cool down, better range, and more power...

But, it comes out slower, so you can shield xD And he's got more punishable moves, and you can counterpick him. He might be worse for Yoshi- I can tell you that G&W is worse than MK for Peach- but there's plenty more options.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i feel the need to correct one GROSS misconception

just because i have a sonic head next to my name DOES NOT mean that i dont play other characters.

you people think that i only play this one character, when, in fact, im intentionally going to this tourney to try and get 5 characters next to my name in the results for the tourney...
in addition to sonic I play:
Lucario
Fox
Pit
D3
Wolf
and I dabble in Falco

I honestly havent played my sonic vs an MK in 4 months except for 1 game where i got CP'd. i gave up on that match a while ago. and half of those characters, i picked up SPECIFICALLY to beat MK.

now... anybody in my area that is not a total hater will admit that i am just as good as anybody that goes to the tourneys. But when everyone plays MK to the point that i cant even play my favorite character, because i have to pick somebody else just to have a chance at winning, and Im still getting beat by MK at every turn... then the games not fun for me anymore, and theres no reason for me to continue showing up for the tourneys....
ill play friendlys all day, and for the most part MK is banned in friendlys around here. but for the record, i know for a fact that that I would not be the first around here to quit playing singles in tourneys because of MK, and I proly wont be the last either.

so dont talk about things that you dony know about and dont make baseless assuptions, it just makes you look bad.

Im not saying he isnt beatable, because he is. hes just not beatable to the point where its worth it for me to try...

 

[§leepy God]

If he does get banned all the MK main will probably just go G&W. He's much more of a hassle than weak little MK...

As for MK's Dsmash being one of the best kill moves in the game. G&W's is more spammable, has less cool down, better range, and more power...

This IMO is a QFT.

Also, Has anyone besides me has been a victom of the "turtle," or his F-Smash? Becasue I have, and it's not pretty. >.<

I can't really say Meta Knight shouldn't be banned due to me probubly facing weak Meta Knight mainer and beating the heck out of them.