The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Omni]

I lost to Azen in Semi's and Chu in Loser's Semi's.
Forte lost to me in Winners and Losers. It was gay; we both had to play each other 3rd round. We also did DDD/Peach our first game so w/e.
Greg lost to me and Slik.
Candy lost to Forte and Chillin.

 

[Matador]

Ok metaknight has better range, attacks, recovery, and more playable stages than my character. How good do you want me to be? Its like challenging someone to a foot race and they put on rollerskates. Then they say well if your fast enough you will still win. Alls I am asking for is a fair playing field. Metaknight may not be unbeatable but he is certainly unbalanced to the point where threads like this happen.

Competitive gaming's not meant to be fair. MK can be beaten, we just need to get better.

 

[camzaman]

Competitive gaming's not meant to be fair. MK can be beaten, we just need to get better.

Can't it be argued that it has to be fair to be competitive? All professional sports leagues do whatever it takes to be as fair as possible - instant replay, salary caps for more parity, etc.

 

[Yuna]

Ok metaknight has better range, attacks, recovery, and more playable stages than my character. How good do you want me to be? Its like challenging someone to a foot race and they put on rollerskates. Then they say well if your fast enough you will still win. Alls I am asking for is a fair playing field. Metaknight may not be unbeatable but he is certainly unbalanced to the point where threads like this happen.

Threads like this pop up even when characters aren't unbalanced. The mere fact that this thread exists proves nothing.

Also, so what if your character isn't as good as Meta Knight? Since when did "Fair" mean "Every single character stands a perfectly equal chance"?

You CG up to 45% and then DLX cancel, which is another 15% or so.

Then he just chills and laser spams at you while you try to get back near him to hit him.

I'm disappointed on you for using the term "DLX Cancel".

Can't it be argued that it has to be fair to be competitive? All professional sports leagues do whatever it takes to be as fair as possible - instant replay, salary caps for more parity, etc.

Again, since when does "Fair" mean "Perfectly equal chance"? I mean, there is no rule where in professional play where once a player becomes "too good", he has to be removed from the league.

Fair does not mean perfectly equal chance of winning for all, not really.

And MK is in no way so unfair no one stands a chance against him. We're not going to rewrite the rules so that everyone stands an equal or close to equal chance. If so, we'd have to ban several characters. In Competitive gaming, "Fair" just means a ruleset where one is not forced to play as a certain (or a very select few characters) to stand a chance at winning.

 

[GofG]

Yuna, you are confusing players for positions.

In baseball, if a position were too good (say, there were a fielder who's job it was to sit between the pitcher and the batter and keep the batter from being able to hit the ball by catching it first), then that position would be eliminated.

Characters are positions, not players.

In tennis, both players are in perfectly equal positions, minus the fact that one of them gets to serve first which might account for some kind of very minor fatigue disadvantage on one player's part.

In basketball, it's not like there's a certain place in the court where you can make a shot no matter what.

 

[ftl]

Heh. I would say the analogy to sports equipment than to positions would be closer... in tennis, there are some methods of stringing racquets which aren't allowed.

...but, regardless, I'm not sure those are too relevant, because in sports people generally don't care about having 'variety of equipment' or 'variety of positions'.

 

[1048576]

If MK had turnips or Waddle Dees or Dins Fire or Sausages or Grenades, I can't imagine him using them, especially if Grenades are used by pressing B. Not having a projectile isn't that big a deal, especially to a character with like the third fastest ground speed in the game.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

MK doesn't need a projectile....

sure, he can't hit you from across the stage, but I'm pretty sure his sword is long enough and fast enough when combined with his good speed to make closing in on a character not that difficult...

 

[da K.I.D.]

id just like to take the time to point out that the best character in melee didnt have projectiles either

Spoiler

pre-lol for the guy who says "fox didnt have projectiles?!"

 

[1048576]

Melee had approaching, so it's different.

Metaknight can approach, though, and approaching is always a better option for him than camping with a hypothetical projectile, because then MK is moving.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

MK himself is a projectile.

 

[chillindude829]

LOL @ people using me azen and chu's success in the MD/VA area as evidence that MK shouldn't be banned. just because we prefer not to use MK and we are good enough to beat him doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy; we all agree he should be banned anyway. Having no bad matchups = ban worthy

 

[Turbo Ether]

LOL @ people using me azen and chu's success in the MD/VA area as evidence that MK shouldn't be banned. just because we prefer not to use MK and we are good enough to beat him doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy; we all agree he should be banned anyway. Having no bad matchups = ban worthy

Azen wants MK banned too? Interesting.

 

[-Jumpman-]

LOL @ people using me azen and chu's success in the MD/VA area as evidence that MK shouldn't be banned. just because we prefer not to use MK and we are good enough to beat him doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy; we all agree he should be banned anyway. Having no bad matchups = ban worthy

It means that you can beat MK even with the bad matchup, it means that MK shouldn't be banned yet.

By the way, there are enough videos of you using MK against Chu Dat, surprise? Azen uses MK frequently too, don't use "we" if 0% is true.

And why is having no bad matchups ban worthy? MK doesn't destroy the metagame or something. If we ban MK, Marth will have no bad matchup, does that mean we should ban Marth? No.

 

[brinboy789]

It means that you can beat MK even with the bad matchup, it means that MK shouldn't be banned yet.

By the way, there are enough videos of you using MK against Chu Dat, surprise? Azen uses MK frequently too, don't use "we" if 0% is true.

And why is having no bad matchups ban worthy? MK doesn't destroy the metagame or something. If we ban MK, Marth will have no bad matchup, does that mean we should ban Marth? No.

azen doesnt use MK frequently, today i read a post by azen himself saying that he does better using lucario/peach/marth then MK.

 

[Vyse]

Tournaments I've collected from this weekend...

TOURNAMENT: SGLP 08.11 n00bvember lan
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102383&page=10
DATE: October 31st, 2008
LOCALE: Australia
ENTRANTS: 19
ENTRY: $9.00
RESULTS:
1 DJBrowny (Sonic/Lucario)
2 Kaeser (Wolf)
3 Dave (Marth)
4 Krill (Meta Knight)
5 Jamage (Mr. Game & Watch)
5 Aisuka (Pikachu)
7 Mafesto (Meta Knight)
7 Sen (Pikachu)

DJ Browny is probably the most active player from SA, (Or at least, his activity on smashboards and subsequent study of the game would indicate as much). Unfortunately, SA is rather lacklustre in its level of skill across the board, especially since for the longest time, SA has never really had any pro (and I use the word Pro loosely in Aus) level players.

So it comes as no suprise to me that he's able to win with Sonic.

If you look at the three major smash states of Australia (QLD, NSW and VIC) The trends in dominating characters are similar to America.

Either way, go DJBrowny!

 

[ShadowLink84]

It means that you can beat MK even with the bad matchup, it means that MK shouldn't be banned yet.

By the way, there are enough videos of you using MK against Chu Dat, surprise? Azen uses MK frequently too, don't use "we" if 0% is true.

And why is having no bad matchups ban worthy? MK doesn't destroy the metagame or something. If we ban MK, Marth will have no bad matchup, does that mean we should ban Marth? No.

Old Sagat, Akuma, Storm, Cable, Magneto and Sentinel are all beatable.

The first two are considered ban worthy (old sagat is soft banned in Japan).
Cable, Magneto, Sentinel and Storm are not banned because they have each other. They **** everyone else below them terribly.

Marth wasn't ban worthy in melee because he had weaknesses that could be exploited.

MK has no weaknesses, no bad matchups.

big deal they are beatable, so is every other character in every other game.
DAD return decks are beatable
Judgement dragon decks are beatable doesn't change the fact that they get banned.


the whole beatability argument does not necessarily work.

 

[popsofctown]

LOL @ people using me azen and chu's success in the MD/VA area as evidence that MK shouldn't be banned. just because we prefer not to use MK and we are good enough to beat him doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy; we all agree he should be banned anyway. Having no bad matchups = ban worthy

He didn't say Azen wants MK ban, read it again.


This is a really sad circle of life. People like chillindude are above using MK, because it's obvious he so abusively better than the rest of the cast. Then by the blood and the sweat of his brow, he overcomes odds and beats inferior players using MK. Then you use that as evidence that MK shouldn't be banned.

Can you beat a basketball team that starts with twenty points more than you? Yes. That doesn't make it fair. Likewise, this character that practically puts you a stock ahead needs to be banned.


The point isn't whether you can make up for the bad strategy of picking someone besides MK by playing better the rest of the whole time. The point is, if the only best strategy is to pick MK at first (whether or not people do it. Whether or not some players rise above it and don't play him. Whether or not other players bandwagon and make him oh so popular), and MK's removal would cause multiple characters to be the best strategy, the game becomes a lot more interesting. There's variety.



Look, there's two things people want out of a game of smash, they want to enjoy it and they want to win. You have to acknowledge both those aspects when you analyze tournament results. Players will sacrifice the win for variety and/or fun. That's what Chillin did. After they do that, don't turn around and say that every single thing that happened there happened for the sake of winning. Someone won a tournament with Ganondorf, somewhere. So obviously, not every game is played exclusively with the desire to win.

 

[chillindude829]

It means that you can beat MK even with the bad matchup, it means that MK shouldn't be banned yet.

By the way, there are enough videos of you using MK against Chu Dat, surprise? Azen uses MK frequently too, don't use "we" if 0% is true.

And why is having no bad matchups ban worthy? MK doesn't destroy the metagame or something. If we ban MK, Marth will have no bad matchup, does that mean we should ban Marth? No.

this is why i don't like posting in threads like this, people are so stupid.

first of all, i never said we don't use MK at all. i said we prefer not to use him, which is why for most tournies we have another main listed in the results. me and azen use him sometimes, but for me the ONLY reason i picked him up is to help show that he's broken. and within 2 weeks of picking him up i beat chu's kirby in the finals of a tourney with him.

secondly, you're mistaken if you think marth has no bad matchups outside MK. he may not have any really disadvantaged matchups, but he's clearly still not favored against several characters. EVERY character other than MK has at least a couple of bad matches, which is why the game is fairly balanced without him.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

And why is having no bad matchups ban worthy? MK doesn't destroy the metagame or something. If we ban MK, Marth will have no bad matchup, does that mean we should ban Marth? No.

um... what?
marth is like the 10th best character in the game. he is in no way shape or form deserving of a ban. way to fail with a terrible example

 

[Emblem Lord]

Chillin...why you so smart?

 

[brinboy789]

um... what?
marth is like the 10th best character in the game. he is in no way shape or form deserving of a ban. way to fail with a terrible example

in the post itself, he said that marth didnt deserve a ban. way to go. hes saying that if MK is banned for no bad matchups, marth should too because he has no bad matchups other then MK, who if banned, then none

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also....10th?

Marth can be no worse then like 6th or 7th if you go by match-ups and results.

Get real.

 

[Tony_]

OK then.

Fox should be banned in Melee. He only has even matchups from what I have heard and he also has ALMOST the same weaknesses as MK.

Gee, sound familiar? Just play MK more. Not that hard. =\

 

[Emblem Lord]

*slaps Tony.

No. Comparing different game engines is bad.

Bad Tony.

We don't do that.

*Slaps him again.

Keep that up and you won't get any doggie treats.

Also Fox had bad match-ups.

Marth and Falco are both debatable.

 

[Tony_]

*slaps Tony.

No. Comparing Different Game Engines Is Bad.

Bad Tony.

We Don't Do That.

*slaps Him Again.

Keep That Up And You Won't Get Any Doggie Treats.

Wryyyyyyyyyy

 

[ShadowLink84]

OK then.

Fox should be banned in Melee. He only has even matchups from what I have heard and he also has ALMOST the same weaknesses as MK.

Gee, sound familiar? Just play MK more. Not that hard. =\

lolwut?

Fox gets beaten by Marth. He doesn't have all even.

same weaknesses? What ame are you playing?
One of the weakness on fox is that he gets comboed very easily.
MK does not.

Fox has weaknesses.
MK does not.

Their is also the whole engine thing that I forgot to mention.
So meh.
You get my point though.

 

[brinboy789]

lolwut?

Fox gets beaten by Marth. He doesn't have all even.

same weaknesses? What ame are you playing?
One of the weakness on fox is that he gets comboed very easily.
MK does not.

Fox has weaknesses.
MK does not.

Their is also the whole engine thing that I forgot to mention.
So meh.
You get my point though.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5734461#post5734461

lawl.

NO FLAMING THERE. this thread is for flaming

 

[ShadowLink84]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5734461#post5734461

lawl.

NO FLAMING THERE. this thread is for flaming

you must be ********.
his size?

how is that an issue?
Yeah big deal he can get grab released. he makes up for that with his range, speed and versatility.

Thats one supposed weaness down.

Big deal he is light. No biggy.

Good DI goes for EVERYONE.
Let alone that the behavior of MK's attacs allow him to take advantage of it so....
no. That doesn't fly at all.

No weaknesses is an exaggeration so let me be more clear.

He has no true weaknesses.
Any that he does have can NOT be exploited due to his gameplay.

This isn't like DK vs Fox in melee.
If you want to grab MK, you won't be doing so anytime soon.
If you want to DI well, go ahead, that doesn't change anything.

 

[brinboy789]

you must be ********.
his size?

how is that an issue?
Yeah big deal he can get grab released. he makes up for that with his range, speed and versatility.

Thats one supposed weaness down.

Big deal he is light. No biggy.

Good DI goes for EVERYONE.
Let alone that the behavior of MK's attacs allow him to take advantage of it so....
no. That doesn't fly at all.

No weaknesses is an exaggeration so let me be more clear.

He has no true weaknesses.
Any that he does have can NOT be exploited due to his gameplay.

This isn't like DK vs Fox in melee.
If you want to grab MK, you won't be doing so anytime soon.
If you want to DI well, go ahead, that doesn't change anything.

see? this is what i mean. his size?

how is that an issue?
Yeah big deal he can get grab released. he makes up for that with his range, speed and versatility.

its a WEAKNESS. it doesnt matter how good the rest of him is, its the size of him thats his WEAKNESS. jeez.

good DI is bad for him because most of his attacks are disjointed so SDI might be able ot get out of some of hise attacks, especially the tornado.

you see. us MK users are human. and you see, humans make mistakes. and as you probably know, mistakes lead to GETTING GRABBED. nobody is perfect, hate to break it to ya. even though its pretty hard to grab MK, its not like grabbing sonic's easier.

 

[salaboB]

So a grab gets Marth a free tippered fsmash, apparently. That begs the question is it easier for Marth to just space properly and get a tippered fsmash without grabbing, or easier to grab? I suspect it's not that easy to grab an MK who's expecting it without getting punished more than it's worth.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Grabbing Sonic is way easier he has to come inside most characters' grab range just to attack lol

 

[Browny]

No disrespect to djbrowny rep'ing Sonic (and Australia), but he usually wins those lol, I'm not sure how many of the entrants are really playing at a high enough level for it to really count.... but then I'd prolly say that about most smashfests, particularly in regions that haven't demonstrated some really top skills. Err, I don't know if that's true of his part of Australia or not, just sayin'. *shrug*

All i gotta say is

'You're only as good as your competition'

 

[thespymachine]

So a grab gets Marth a free tippered fsmash, apparently. That begs the question is it easier for Marth to just space properly and get a tippered fsmash without grabbing, or easier to grab? I suspect it's not that easy to grab an MK who's expecting it without getting punished more than it's worth.

you've got a point there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth gets a free f-smash?

Like hell he does.

 

[Yuna]

Having no bad matchups = ban worthy

Too bad every single other fighting game community in the world disagrees. I'm not saying you're wrong altogether, I'm saying that that argument on its own has no merit.

MK has no weaknesses, no bad matchups.

Neither do Yun (3S) or X (SCII or SCIII)(not sure about this one). And then there's a few others I'm not too sure of, like, Eddie in various GGs and possibly Ciel (MB).

 

[brinboy789]

So a grab gets Marth a free tippered fsmash, apparently. That begs the question is it easier for Marth to just space properly and get a tippered fsmash without grabbing, or easier to grab? I suspect it's not that easy to grab an MK who's expecting it without getting punished more than it's worth.

if you actually read the post, it said he gets a free fair tipper, not fsmash.

Marth gets a free f-smash?

Like hell he does.

what i said above.

 

[Kookie]

Just how divided the community is about this is amazing . . .

 

[Blackbelt]

Just how divided the community is about this is amazing . . .

Actually, this is par for the course.


Banning anything in anything will always bring arguments.

 

[Mocha19]

Marth gets a free f-smash?

Like hell he does.

Maybe you should try it at least and see for yourself? Just a suggestion.. Don't rule things out yet just because of your own opinion. People are really researching this at your expense.

And yeah like brinboy said.. read the stuff first..