The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Kookie]

Maybe you should try it at least and see for yourself? Just a suggestion.. Don't rule things out yet just because of your own opinion. People are really researching this at your expense.

And yeah like brinboy said.. read the stuff first..

I think what he was saying is that it's already so much work to just grab Meta Knight that you'd be better off just doing an Fsmash without the grab.

 

[cman]

Maybe you should try it at least and see for yourself? Just a suggestion.. Don't rule things out yet just because of your own opinion. People are really researching this at your expense.

And yeah like brinboy said.. read the stuff first..

He doesn't get a tippered fsmash. The guy before EL read it wrong. He gets a tippered fair, which is far less sexy.

 

[Zankoku]

Maybe you should try it at least and see for yourself? Just a suggestion.. Don't rule things out yet just because of your own opinion. People are really researching this at your expense.

And yeah like brinboy said.. read the stuff first..

Maybe you shouldn't think a Marth main wouldn't know about if a grab release to tipper fsmash would work or not? This stuff's been tested at least two months ago.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah...uhhhh. Marth boards have researched this extensively.

Including me.

Don't sleep on the Marth boards.

We know our character.

cman and Ankoku know the muhfukin deal.

 

[chillindude829]

Too bad every single other fighting game community in the world disagrees. I'm not saying you're wrong altogether, I'm saying that that argument on its own has no merit.

good thing we aren't every other fighting game community then. there's no reason we should feel the need to follow the "examples" of other fighting game communities, this is a separate one altogether and if the community feels a character ban is warranted, then it will happen.

i hate people that reference other fighting game communities constantly as if their decisions have any bearing on the decisions the smash community makes.

 

[Yuna]

good thing we aren't every other fighting game community then. there's no reason we should feel the need to follow the "examples" of other fighting game communities, this is a separate one altogether and if the community feels a character ban is warranted, then it will happen.

i hate people that reference other fighting game communities constantly as if their decisions have any bearing on the decisions the smash community makes.

So according to what logic does no bad matchups = autoban according to the Smash community? Decades of Competitive gaming has taught us that a character with no bad matchups doesn't automatically ruin the metagame. What makes Brawl so special?

Why does no bad matchups = autoban? Because people will feel the need to jump ship to that character even if they're not at all forced to since he's still beatable with several characters, but people just like the easy way out and flock to win anyway?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly, you need to remember that SRK and other communities often make rules for the sole purpose of making the players better.

They hate banning broken things because they want to make their players stronger. If a game sucks outright then they just don't play it.

Smash community is different. Smash community will ban stuff just to make the game suck less or make it more competitive.

lmao.

Pretty cut and dry, but that's the way it is.

Also they are too caught up in the traditions and rules of their communities alot of the time to try anything new that might make a game better or make the community better.

All FG communites have their problems.

 

[Turbo Ether]

*grabs popcorn*

This should be entertaining.

 

[brinboy789]

*grabs popcorn*

This should be entertaining.

agreed. btw are you for or not for the ban?

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

But that's the thing. We'd be banning stuff to make it "More fair" due to an arbitrary view on what constitutes "fair".

What's next, removing certain counterpicks for just being too good for some characters (as opposed to stages that are just broken)? Banning more than MK if another (or several) character rises up to the same level (if)? Arbitrary limits on chaingrabs and locks and whatnot?

I mean, if we wanted to optimize Compeitiveness, fairness and limit suckiness, we'd start putting arbitrary limits on everything. F-tilt locks (Sheik) must be limited to X number of F-tilts, Zamus' Dsmash Lock must be limited to X number of Dsmashes. Chaingrabs must be limited to a number of grabs (dependant on which chaingrab we're talking about), etc., etc., etc.

If we're not banning things for just being "too good" but instead doing it simply because we feel like it in order to make the game less sucky, we might as well cave in and hack the game as well to make it some kind of balanced monster a la GG.

The point of bringing up other communities is to show that, no, a character having no bad matchups doesn't automatically destroy the metagame, unless every other community in existence for some reason just elects not to be drawn to those characters for some random reason. No, those communities' players just get good enough to be able to win tournaments with other characters, some with bad to horrible matchups against that fabled "No Bads" character.

The only reason why there are so many MKs ATM is out of choice. The Smash community is just to set to win and lazy that people just run off to "The Best" if there's a clear "The Best". It's not because MK's so good they have to switch, they just want the easy way out.

 

[Turbo Ether]

agreed. btw are you for or not for the ban?

I'm against him being banned, but if he ends up being banned I won't really care that much.

 

[The Real Inferno]

agreed. btw are you for or not for the ban?

You forget that some of us take a Switzerland on this.

 

[Sephiroth27]

*Grabs entertaining*

This should be popcorn.

 

[chillindude829]

But that's the thing. We'd be banning stuff to make it "More fair" due to an arbitrary view on what constitutes "fair".

Yeah, good point. Additionally, why do we ban items just because we think they're unfair? Just because someone arbitrarily decided that items are unfair doesn't mean they should be banned. I move that we turn all items on very high.

 

[thespymachine]

Yeah, good point. Additionally, why do we ban items just because we think they're unfair? Just because someone arbitrarily decided that items are unfair doesn't mean they should be banned. I move that we turn all items on very high.

I was talking with Deva, Praxis, and Valdens last night and we thought that MK might be a balanced character with items on. Maybe.

That's about the deepest the conversation got though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yuna: Eh. According to most of the posts and thoughts I have gathered from talking to SRKers, they are like us. Most of them run to the best characters and alot of them HATE tournaments these days cuz it's nothing but Yun's in 3S, god tiers in MvC2 with a few top tiers, and Sagat, Blanka, Sakura and Bison in CvS2 with a few other tops sprinkled in as well.

I think it's American mentality in general that just advocates winning at no matter the cost.

Japanese players really aren't like this to this same degree.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I was talking with Deva, Praxis, and Valdens last night and we thought that MK might be a balanced character with items on. Maybe.

That's about the deepest the conversation got though.

MK vs Captain Falcon. Items off.

MK vs Captain Falcon. Items on.

What's more balanced?

 

[fkacyan]

Yeah, good point. Additionally, why do we ban items just because we think they're unfair? Just because someone arbitrarily decided that items are unfair doesn't mean they should be banned. I move that we turn all items on very high.

Things such as item spawn position and item type make them unfair. If a Pokeball spawns next to you, that was luck winning for you, and not your skill.

Your point fails.

 

[thespymachine]

MK vs Captain Falcon. Items off.

MK vs Captain Falcon. Items on.

What's more balanced?

Good point.

But like I said, we thought he MIGHT be more balanced but thats all we said, and we got off topic with how broken fans are, which eventually led to funny smashboards posts.

but w/e

 

[Turbo Ether]

Good point.

But like I said, we thought he MIGHT be more balanced but thats all we said, and we got off topic with how broken fans are, which eventually led to funny smashboards posts.

but w/e

You guys might be right, I was just throwing that question out there to hear people's opinions.

 

[cman]

Things such as item spawn position and item type make them unfair. If a Pokeball spawns next to you, that was luck winning for you, and not your skill.

Your point fails.

Or maybe the person just wasn't good enough to avoid the pokemon. Maybe they should get better instead of whining. Does this argument sound familiar?

And tell me, how is what you said NOT arbitrarily labeling something as too good?

 

[ShadowLink84]

its a WEAKNESS. it doesnt matter how good the rest of him is, its the size of him thats his WEAKNESS. jeez.

you're not gettign it.
You saying his size is a weakness is like saying Olimar's size is a weakness.
He is small big deal but that isn't just the reason he gets grab released.
Look at Wario who is taller and ets grab released.

Let alone that again, him being small benefits him in that some attacks that would normally hit other characters, would miss him.

good DI is bad for him because most of his attacks are disjointed so SDI might be able ot get out of some of hise attacks, especially the tornado.

You mean they multihit. disjointed means he has high priority.
Which is only on a handful of moves like the tornado. The rest of his moves cannot be DI'ed out of because they are so very quick. there isn't a large amount of hit delay.

you see. us MK users are human. and you see, humans make mistakes. and as you probably know, mistakes lead to GETTING GRABBED. nobody is perfect, hate to break it to ya. even though its pretty hard to grab MK, its not like grabbing sonic's easier.[/QUOTE

No one cares for if you are human or not. Thats like saying player skill dictates on whether a character is banworthy.
Again MK's gameplay makes it extremely hard to grab him.

 

[thespymachine]

You guys might be right, I was just throwing that question out there to hear people's opinions.

I'll see what they have to say about it more.

But I'm pretty sure that Praxis (or someone) mentioned something about MK's glide-tossing would be amazing. Haha

It would be even more funny if MK was way more broken with items.

 

[chillindude829]

Or maybe the person just wasn't good enough to avoid the pokemon. Maybe they should get better instead of whining. Does this argument sound familiar?

And tell me, how is what you said NOT arbitrarily labeling something as too good?

this.

try again thiocyanide

 

[salaboB]

Things such as item spawn position and item type make them unfair. If a Pokeball spawns next to you, that was luck winning for you, and not your skill.

Your point fails.

Also, very high item rate will balance the drops out pretty well over the course of the match. Learn how to fight to minimize the risks! (A lot like dealing with tripping, really)

 

[Yuna]

Yuna: Eh. According to most of the posts and thoughts I have gathered from talking to SRKers, they are like us. Most of them run to the best characters and alot of them HATE tournaments these days cuz it's nothing but Yun's in 3S, god tiers in MvC2 with a few top tiers, and Sagat, Blanka, Sakura and Bison in CvS2 with a few other tops sprinkled in as well.

I think it's American mentality in general that just advocates winning at no matter the cost.

Japanese players really aren't like this to this same degree.

But there's still plenty of players who do not, and most importantly, who instead develop their characters to the point where they can beat the Top Tiers. Chun-Li actually wins more tournaments than Yun from what I hear.

And more importantly, no attempt at banning the best simply for being the best. Because the others know that while Yun is the best, he is far from unbeatable and elect to either play Yun or develop another character to a point where they can win against Yun.

Or maybe the person just wasn't good enough to avoid the pokemon. Maybe they should get better instead of whining. Does this argument sound familiar?

And tell me, how is what you said NOT arbitrarily labeling something as too good?

Items spawn randomly and can favour one side over the other (randomly). Even if you're good enough to avoid the Pokémon, it doesn't change the fact that the game just, for a few seconds, became you vs. the Pokémon and your opponent, who in most cases is free to take a shot at you while you're avoiding the potentially deadly (and sometimes homing) Pokémon.

No matter how good one becomes, it's still a totally unfair advantage not due to skill or choice by randomness (i.e. luck). Randomness is anti-Competitive.

Also, very high item rate will balance the drops out pretty well over the course of the match. Learn how to fight to minimize the risks! (A lot like dealing with tripping, really)

This is not how it works. If a lucky Smash Ball spawns at the right time for one side, another one won't usually spawn at the right time for the other. It's random. A higher rate just means there's greater chances of something random occurring to randomize the results.

 

[chillindude829]

I'm going to pick a word. Then everytime I post that word or maybe a variation with different wording, I'm going to bold said word because I don't think my point is getting across

 

[thespymachine]

chillin is funny

 

[DanteFox]

Or maybe the person just wasn't good enough to avoid the pokemon. Maybe they should get better instead of whining. Does this argument sound familiar?

And tell me, how is what you said NOT arbitrarily labeling something as too good?

nah. completely different. both players have the choice to use metaknight, but getting a good pokemon is chance. This argument is apples and oranges.

 

[Tony_]

lol Chillin.

 

[Natch]

The extent of MK's advantages are what matter more, not just the fact he can't be counterpicked hard.

MK doesn't hit very hard, the characters he does hit very hard tend to be lower on the tierlist.
Even if I choose say DDD, and the matchup is 60:40 in my opponents favor, this by no means is bad.

All it means is that I have a 40% chance of winning. That is barely even considered a soft counter.

This is a similar issue in GG. Baiken has a larger number of 60:40 matchups against her than Eddie who is the complete opposite.

Does this mean that a character like Eddie who has no counters should be banned. No.
The extent to which he hits other characters isn't major enough.

A character having 60:40 matchups across the board doesn't warrant a bad.

Matchup do not work that way. 60:40 means you have to work 20% harder to win.

 

[Yuna]

I'm going to pick a word. Then everytime I post that word or maybe a variation with different wording, I'm going to bold said word because I don't think my point is getting across

It's necessary since some people still haven't understood why items are bad for Competition and also fail to understand exactly how randomness works.

 

[Tony_]

It's necessary since some people still haven't understood why items are bad for Competition and also fail to understand exactly how randomness works.

This is why I laugh at your responses sometimes.

 

[fkacyan]

Also, very high item rate will balance the drops out pretty well over the course of the match. Learn how to fight to minimize the risks! (A lot like dealing with tripping, really)

We've long since hacked out tripping.

@ cman: Comparing MK and randomness is stupid, because bad MKs are a cinch to beat, wheras my younger sister can pull out certain Pokemon and win.

 

[OverLade]

Matchup do not work that way. 60:40 means you have to work 20% harder to win.

No, it really doesn't. How do you define 20% harder in brawl anyway???

 

[Mortimer]

We've long since hacked out tripping.

A hack to drop items more evenly must be the solution everybody's looking for!

 

[Natch]

No, it really doesn't. How do you define 20% harder in brawl anyway???

Okay, listen.

Game and Watch is 80:20 against Lucas. This does mean a 4:1 ratio. If this were true, Lucas would NEVER win against GaW except in the most extreme of circumstances.

No, Lucas has to work 60% harder to win. It's not quantifiable, but how does one quantify matchups in the first place? You have to qualify it, and then associate a quantity with that.

 

[Yuna]

We've long since hacked out tripping.

@ cman: Comparing MK and randomness is stupid, because bad MKs are a cinch to beat, wheras my younger sister can pull out certain Pokemon and win.

We have? Did I miss some memo where it's now a tournament staple to have tripping hacked out?

 

[Orb13]

About 3s, I play 3s and Yun is not the best. Chun is definitely the best. 3s is also very different from brawl, mostly because it was made to be competitive. All the characters in 3s are fairly balanced, or at least more so than in other fighting games. In SBO Kuroda beat Jwong(Chun) and Ricky Ortiz(Ken) with Q, the lowest tiered character. No one in 3s dominates anywhere close to the level mk does.

 

[fkacyan]

We have? Did I miss some memo where it's now a tournament staple to have tripping hacked out?

Many NJ Wiis, at least for finals, always have had tripping hacked out since the hack was released.

At least, random tripping. Slipping caused by tilts and bananas is still in.