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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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Sukai

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turn around....
Well, from what I can tell. No one can find a good counterpick for a Top-of-the-line Meta Knight. So with this, people are gonna get sick of losing to him and try and find a counterpick against him.
After various failures, it is deduced to Meta Knight being a countetpick against himself. So people train with him so vigorously with him, that they fall into the same line of the pro Meta knight players. This will start a chain of the same thing, and more people will chose Meta Knight as a winning priority character.
Imagine, a tourney where only Meta Knight is picked.
*shudders*
I kinda side with Sakurai on the concept that Brawl shouldn't be competitive, things run too deep.
Of course this is just a senario that may go down.
But this chain has been occuring for a while now, so it may be inevitable to ban him.
Any arguement on the situation is moot, because if what is predicted happens, Meta Knight will be banned.
The only thing that can even gain any merit on Meta Knight's defense is showing some sort of video proof (and lost of it) on other characters, being able to defeat a well known Meta Knight pro. Of course it will be subject to investigation, and the methods used will have to be practiced.
If they prove effective to the point that any High/Mid tier character can defeat a pro Meta Knight with the standard efforts given based on their tier, then the whole situation is subject to change. If Meta Knight at his peak can be taken down by a different character at their peak, then he won't be banned.

Compare him to Fox in Melee.
Fox, statistically was the best character, but the gap wasn't that big between him, Marth and Sheik.
A pro Marth or Sheik was able to take down a pro Fox with the standard efforts given, any High Tier character could also.
But now in Brawl, a pro Snake or DDD would get owned by a pro Meta Knight, no question. The gap here is too big than the one in Melee, it can even be categorized as insurmountable.

For all those who want to defend Meta Knights case, 3 things:
1, saying a few notes on Meta Knight's weaknesses is not credible, in any way here. Mainly because under other circumstances, you would be defending him on how his strengths can easily over-shadow them, you can't turn the paradigm when your little masked blue Kirby is in a corner.
Inconsistency for the loss.
2, talking about how others can defeat a or your Meta Knight is also not credible here. Why? Because in the opening post, Samurai explained how just because a player can take down a Meta Knight, does not change how a pro Meta Knight can equate to the rest of the cast of characters. Neither does it mean that the Meta Knight in question who can be beaten is a "pro". Any character being played casually can be beaten by anyone, but compare that to a serious tournament where there are dozens of pro Meta Knight players whoa re notorious for they mass accumalated victories over every character save for Meta Knight himself.
3, if you really think your claim on defending him has any worth, talk to the SBR about it, make your claim, state your arguement and make a good point that can contradict months of tournament observation and metagame progress.

But if it is to serve so sort of relief, Samurai also said that it's too early to make a bold decision on it, so stay positive.
You never know, someone may come in and be able to turn the tables on a pro Meta Knight...
But realistically, thats unlikely. Possble, but not probable.
 

oxhaseokunxo

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After seeing the recording of Dojo in play completely obliterating Toon Link (someone who is said to have an even chance according to the Matchup chart) I have officially decided that Meta Knight is Broken. Dabbling in almost all characters i find Meta Knight the easiest to control after my two mains Snake and Wario although I only picked him up competitively about 3 days ago I stand an even chance with him as I do with Snake who i have been playing as since the games release. I find that his ability to control the oponents playstyle after sending them airborn creates one of the worst tensions possible in competitive matches allowing for many quick fingered players to practically spam his aerials. That in combination with his Mach Tornado ruins most fast paced matches.

And in relation to the previous post, I was hoping to see a Meta Knight exclusive competition to see how pro Meta Game faces against itself.

But the thing we need to ask ourselves is what will happen once Meta Knight gets banned?
 

Mew2King

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people are so biased w/ vids. I beat dojo pretty badly in MK dittos when i went to TX, but santi almost beat me. This is only cuz I have way more MK experience than toon link experience, just like dojo has way more toon link exp than mk ditto experience. But it doesn't matter how many times I say things, people will always be dumb
 

~ Gheb ~

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So atomsk has no MK experience? Yet he gets easily defeaten by Inuis "baby" MK? (not that I disagree, I just find the example...invalid)
 

Sukai

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turn around....
This is how hard Dojo's Meta Knight owns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zzO5GRbATE&feature=related
I know, he had to delete it.

But seriously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46QmG2b4eAg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0c-7cmSDFI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASMKeBRHRto&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6iyLZ1yui0&feature=related

But in all fairness he does have some losses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgD339qR8X4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE3f3JtbdSw&feature=related

Now imagine a whole tourney of this, but instead, its MK vs MK.
Find a flaw, or ban him.

people are so biased w/ vids. I beat dojo pretty badly in MK dittos when i went to TX, but santi almost beat me. This is only cuz I have way more MK experience than toon link experience, just like dojo has way more toon link exp than mk ditto experience. But it doesn't matter how many times I say things, people will always be dumb
Thats good for you, being able to beat Dojo.
But you can't blame us for going by what we see and our analogy based on it. Besides, you may be able to take down Dojo in particular, but the problem extends nationwide so what significance does your victories over Dojo have?
Very little.
I agree, in the end it's the skill of the player, which is based off of your experiences, but after a while, experience can only get you to know what to expect, not to avoid it.
You can say these "things" all you want, and you can condescend on anyone who believes otherwise (which is really dumb in itself), but the fact remains.
Regardless of personal experience and sheer conjecture, the Meta Knight fad is spreading.
 

Azen Zagenite

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=^_^=

Atomsk beats my MK lolz. Lots of people **** my top tiers actually, I'm not that good with them :(

If it wasn't for Lucario/Peach/Marth/Ike/Diddy/DDD/MK, I wouldn't have done as good in Hobo without any of them. Multiple chars so fun!


 

Mew2King

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ya atomsk lost to inui, but atomsk beat forte in 3 money matches in a row at CH4, and 2-0d InfernoOmni at CH3. Those 2 MKs are some of the very bests in the world

honestly, you guys just underrate inui lol, too much bandwagoning on him. He has a lot of tourney experience, and saw my MK plenty of times to know what to do, especially since I told him what to do (primarily that tornado and retreating fairs ***** ddd)
 

ADHD

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people are so biased w/ vids. I beat dojo pretty badly in MK dittos when i went to TX, but santi almost beat me. This is only cuz I have way more MK experience than toon link experience, just like dojo has way more toon link exp than mk ditto experience. But it doesn't matter how many times I say things, people will always be dumb
Uh huh? You're point is. . .

You didn't do well against a toon link because you didn't have matchup experience, so what? You could easily **** him as hard as dojo if you played him often. Dojo didn't have as much meta experience as you, what's to stop him from gaining that knowledge?

Inui is good
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Yeah, but I'm saying that Azen simply didn't want to take that risk, and thus switched to MK because he believed he'd have a better chance of winning.

Oh wait...isn't that pretty much what everyone is doing and pretty much why we're even having this discussion?
It's clear that if Azen pushed a little more with Lucario, he could easily win those matches.

He choose to play MK, among others, he wasn't forced to.

It doesn't matter azen had to go MK or loose at that tournament if he didn't he would have won a lot less money (I bet M2K is thankful he went MK because they split it I think). You can watch the videos on my youtube account if you feel like it.
Last life at high percentages anyone?

That means those matches were close. He never had to change for anyone if he didn't want to, he could have stayed as Lucario and won the rest of the set.
 
D

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I think he meant to say...

This chain has been in occurence for a while; his ban is inevitable.
@Rey Ryu

Pfft, if, buts... he switched to Meta Knight. It is of little relevance whether he may or may not have won with Lucario. The same goes for these magical counters and strategies that haven't been found yet, that will apparently flip the meta-game on its head.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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people are so biased w/ vids. I beat dojo pretty badly in MK dittos when i went to TX, but santi almost beat me. This is only cuz I have way more MK experience than toon link experience, just like dojo has way more toon link exp than mk ditto experience. But it doesn't matter how many times I say things, people will always be dumb
:laugh: so. What you're saying is that you didn't beat santi because you have so little experience against toon link? Yes, this clearly proves that Meta Knight is not as good as everyone has been saying.

On a serious note though, you can't remain ignorant to other charcters and playstyles forever. What happens once you know the matchup better? Not better than your oponent does, necessarily, just well enough that you can say you "know" the matchup. I'll tell you what happens, Meta Knight is favoured to win at that point, no matter who his oponent may be.


P.S.
why are Azen's posts so cute? ^.^
 

Praxis

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people are so biased w/ vids. I beat dojo pretty badly in MK dittos when i went to TX, but santi almost beat me. This is only cuz I have way more MK experience than toon link experience, just like dojo has way more toon link exp than mk ditto experience. But it doesn't matter how many times I say things, people will always be dumb
So you're saying that you fought a Toon Link with tons of MK experience, with very little Toon Link experience, and still won, thus proving the matchup isn't that bad?
 

-Jumpman-

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So you're saying that you fought a Toon Link with tons of MK experience, with very little Toon Link experience, and still won, thus proving the matchup isn't that bad?

Hahaha. M2K is probably just better. May I remind you that experience with characters and matchups not the only things are that decide to outcome of the battle.

He never said "tons of", stop assuming. M2K is a great player, even without a lot of experience. The matchup helped him, but does it make a difference?
 

Emblem Lord

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lol.

Everyone's first mistake was thinking that M2K could give a good cohesive argument.

I'm afraid your faith has been misplaced.
 

Emblem Lord

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He is most certainly not mentally ********.

But debating is very much a weak point of his.
 
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His 'tips' thread is certainly informative and a showcase of his intelligence.
 

Emblem Lord

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Did you....read the thread?

All of that was..at least I THOUGHT...it was common knowledge at this point. Stuff you would know just from lurking on the MK boards and watching some vids.

But it does show a desire to help the community at least, which I do respect.
 

choknater

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to Emblem Lord: Yeah, maybe it was old news. However, it provided a lot of counterpoints to the complaints that some moves are too good, especially in this particular thread.

Mew2King knows only to bring up facts and matchup knowledge. If people see some emotional backing to it, or call him greedy or something... hey, he's not perfect. The valid points that he DOES bring up should be considered. He is only trying to prove that Metaknight isn't invincible.

If Mew2King didn't exist... and Azen dominated every single tournament with Lucario... I wonder what the boards would look like.
 

Zankoku

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We'd be talking about how ridiculous Azen is at the game, seeing as how nobody has successfully reproduced his style of play nor his tournament placings, to date.
 

CR4SH

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We'd be talking about how ridiculous Azen is at the game, seeing as how nobody has successfully reproduced his style of play nor his tournament placings, to date.
Isn't that kinda the way it should be?

ZOMG that dude is good! >>> ZOMG that dude's character is good!
 

XIF

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to Emblem Lord: Yeah, maybe it was old news. However, it provided a lot of counterpoints to the complaints that some moves are too good, especially in this particular thread.

Mew2King knows only to bring up facts and matchup knowledge. If people see some emotional backing to it, or call him greedy or something... hey, he's not perfect. The valid points that he DOES bring up should be considered. He is only trying to prove that Metaknight isn't invincible.

If Mew2King didn't exist... and Azen dominated every single tournament with Lucario... I wonder what the boards would look like.
Emblem Lord is mostly right. The second you think M2K can string together 2 cohesive sentences is the second that you've failed to grasp the topic. You would also assume M2K holds some valid stances and opinions on such topics. Such golden ones as:

"I just came back from HOBO 11. I beat dojo, I beat santi, as a matter of fact, I didnt lose a single metaknight ditto!

MK is fair!"

or how about my personal favorite?

"Jigglypuff needs to be banned [in melee]! She is potentially the gayest character in the game!"

oooo! What ever will the poor Marth or Fox player do???


of course this is paraphrasing, but others can back me up and I could definitely bring up posts.

There are other people that actually make coherent arguments against the MK ban, and while I and others still disagree, it's still better than M2K's argument.

Azen... has always been an outlier on general smash thinking. All I will say is that I still disagree with him, but at least he actually goes and wins with other characters (some of the time).
 

DMG

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Anyone that can **** with a character that is not in the top tier has my respect, especially when said person is cool about it and gives you props WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING!!!

Azen is too cool. Nuff said.

Edit: I sigged him he's that freakin awesome.
 

Emblem Lord

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Choknater said the funniest thing ever.

M2K only brings up facts and match-up knowledge.

The man has told me that he USED to argue with facts and data and now argues with his OPINION and what he THINKS is true.

Guys...seriously..DO NOT overestimate someone because of skill or reputation or w/e.

Not me, not XIF, not M2K..not anyone.

Judge for yourself and think for yourself.
 

Praxis

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Choknater said the funniest thing ever.

M2K only brings up facts and match-up knowledge.

The man has told me that he USED to argue with facts and data and now argues with his OPINION and what he THINKS is true.

Guys...seriously..DO NOT overestimate someone because of skill or reputation or w/e.

Not me, not XIF, not M2K..not anyone.

Judge for yourself and think for yourself.
I'm going to follow your advice and thus not listen to you.
By not listening to you, I will blindly follow any player with a reputation.
Thus, I will blindly listen to you.
Thus, I'm going to follow your advice and...

Crap...I think I just divided by zero.
 

XIF

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seriously guys. Just because I can play smash brothers melee well doesnt make me immune to logic.

I could very well say dumb things.

I'd like to think I'm smart though.

But if someone has to justify their claims with "I'm better at smash than you are" that should raise some red flags.

Obviously it could be valid in the context of "I have far more experience, and I'm telling you that the fact of the matter supports this idea"

But If their entire justification stems from "my opinion means more than yours because I'm good at a videogame" then yeah, be wary.
 

Praxis

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seriously guys. Just because I can play smash brothers melee well doesnt make me immune to logic.

I could very well say dumb things.

I'd like to think I'm smart though.

But if someone has to justify their claims with "I'm better at smash than you are" that should raise some red flags.

Obviously it could be valid in the context of "I have far more experience, and I'm telling you that the fact of the matter supports this idea"

But If their entire justification stems from "my opinion means more than yours because I'm good at a videogame" then yeah, be wary.
I know. I just wanted to make a joke. It was a good post. :)
 

Turbo Ether

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Ignore/disregard 90% of the opinions on Smashboards. Seek objective information, apply it, improve.

Doesn't matter what random smasher #3267 thinks about X game situation, if it's not actually helping anyone get better. I'd rather just learn of the facts, and concoct my own theories.
 
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