The Official SBR Podcast! (Ep. 4 - DL OUT!)

[kupo15]

In spite of not trying Brawl+ yet, I'm really enjoying this podcast.


One thing that caught my attention in the S/L/Auto-L canceling discussion was how S-canceling opened up more options, but still limited your approach. That's something I hadn't thought of before. However, there's two big concerns I'd could see myself having with the option:

1. Several air moves in Brawl, as in Melee, are fundamentally risk-reward. More powerful air moves (such as Link's down-A) tend to have longer landing lag. Since S-canceling removes all landing lag, wouldn't that eliminate much of the risk of some areals?

I can't help but think back to Melee, where an L-canceled Link down-A still took much longer to recover from than, say, an L-canceled sex kick. I'm not so sure that removing that dynamic altogether with S-Canceling would improve the balance.


2. Once landing on the ground, you're able to grab as soon as you have your shield up with S-canceling (if I'm understanding it right). Sounds nice ... but what if your opponent tried to counter your areal with a shield-grab? I'd imagine there's only a small window of opportunity - they'd have to shield your attack and initiate the grab before you hit the ground.

I'm afraid of granting the offensive player in this situation too much flexibility. Spacing your air attacks to avoid shield-grabs is one thing. But a poorly approached areal against a shielding opponent shouldn't put them both on equal standings. There needs to be room to capitalize on mistakes.

Maybe this would only be a problem with heavier gravity/quicker fastfalls, etc. If it's problematic now, maybe that's something added(/lessened?) shield-stun could fix.


Like I said, I haven't tried Brawl+ yet, so I honestly don't have much insight here. Anyone who has fiddled around with Brawl+ care to comment on these two concerns?

Well not only can you grab or roll/dodge upon landing, but you can also JC the lag so it essentially becomes (or could become) an aerial spam fest since all you have to do is hold shield the whole time and get 0 lag.

I think half lag plus shield hitstun is the way to go because its what worked before.

Here is another thing "grab canceling" at the bottom

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5944369&postcount=329

 

[Crispy4001]

Thanks for the link kupo. This is exactly the thing that worries me:

S-canceling allows you to circumvent the shield entirely and go straight into a grab. Grab canceling, if you will. Any aerial timed properly can be grab canceled.

This is a list of drill moves that make for an easy grab cancel:

Bowser - Dair
Dedede - Dair
Falco - Fair
Fox - Dair
G&W - Nair
Ice Climbers - Uair (only works on taller characters)
Jigglypuff - Dair
Kirby - Dair
Lucas - Nair (Possibly not perfect, as we are dealing with a tether grab. Needs more testing)
Mario - Dair
Ness - Fair
Olimar - Nair (Possibly not perfect, as we are dealing with a tether grab. Needs more testing)
Peach - Dair
Pika - Fair
Pit - Nair (Uair will work on taller characters as well)
Sonic - Fair
Squirtle - Dair
Wario - Dair
Zelda - Nair (Needs more testing)

This is not broken however.

Power shielding stops grab canceling in it's tracks, because it allows you to roll away in time. Also these drills require you to be right on top of your opponent, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

Every aerial that allows you to land the attack right before you hit the ground can grab cancel effectively. Almost every aerial from every character can do this. It's something that is a lot harder to set up, because it's not as easy as simply drilling to a grab. This requires excellent timing, spacing, and mindgaming to allow it to work and grant you a grab. This opens up a lot of offensive possibilities, and requires a lot of skill to pull off effectively. It can completely change the way Brawl is played, and honestly it is setting things up to be more skill based and require more thought and strategy.

Yes, this would add a layer of nuance and strategy. And it would help improve the offensive game in Brawl, which falls in line with the thinking that Brawl plays too defensively.

The big question is if it's the right way to make the game more offensively oriented. Who's getting rewarded for what?

Personally, I feel that a grounded player shielding an areal attack should always be at the advantage. Or at the very least, in equal standing (ie: being pushed away with a strong areal, attacked out of sheild-grab range, etc). Giving the attacker a way to pressure through fundamentally compromises the shielding player's position:

Shield too far away and you'll be out of shield-grab range. Shield too close and you could get shield-grabbed before you can get at them... Stripping away positional advantages isn't the type of re-balancing that Brawl+ should shoot for.

 

[kupo15]

Thanks for the link kupo. This is exactly the thing that worries me:


Yes, this would add a layer of nuance and strategy. And it would help improve the offensive game in Brawl, which falls in line with the thinking that Brawl plays too defensively.

The big question is if it's the right way to make the game more offensively oriented. Who's getting rewarded for what?

Personally, I feel that a grounded player shielding an areal attack should always be at the advantage. Or at the very least, in equal standing (ie: being pushed away with a strong areal, attacked out of sheild-grab range, etc). Giving the attacker a way to pressure through fundamentally compromises the shielding player's position:

Shield too far away and you'll be out of shield-grab range. Shield too close and you could get shield-grabbed before you can get at them... Stripping away positional advantages isn't the type of re-balancing that Brawl+ should shoot for.

Np. I think that half lag and shield stun is the way to go. It worked before, it'll work now. I also vote for auto l canceling for two reasons. The manual l canceling code is weird because the timing is further from the ground than normal and 75/195 moves in the game already auto l cancel. So why should Ganon, for example, need to learn this harder timing just to compete when Peach (all moves auto l cancel) doesn't. Manual l canceling doesn't seem like a balanced mechanic to add in this regard over auto l canceling.

 

[NinjaLink]

I agree. I rather regular L-Cancel than S-Cancel. S-Cancel is like 64 and we kno how that game gets down >_>. ******** shield pressure.

 

[pure_awesome]

Np. I think that half lag and shield stun is the way to go. It worked before, it'll work now. I also vote for auto l canceling for two reasons. The manual l canceling code is weird because the timing is further from the ground than normal and 75/195 moves in the game already auto l cancel. So why should Ganon, for example, need to learn this harder timing just to compete when Peach (all moves auto l cancel) doesn't. Manual l canceling doesn't seem like a balanced mechanic to add in this regard over auto l canceling.

Just to be certain, you're arguing that Peach's aerials already L-Cancel, and Ganon's don't, so it wouldn't be fair to make L-Cancelling manual?

 

[Oddler]

Question: Who is in the SBR and who does each one main as?

 

[cutter]

I would like to see the next SBR podcast be about banning Dedede's infinites. As you can tell in the tactical boards, the poll for banning his infinites is very divided... a lot like how Meta Knight was.

 

[Pierce7d]

I just want to express how much I appreciate this podcast for helping to alleviate tension between the groups of people that play 'normal' Brawl, and Brawl+. I generally do not enjoy playing with hacks (no tripping is alright, and the replay hack has come in handy, with the music hack being my favorite) but this podcast has lightened my glare upon them.

Also, even though you guys got off topic quite a bit, you said some pretty important stuff. I just want to touch on some of the things you guys were saying about hitstun.

As old Melee vets know (I do not, I am not one of them), it can take a really long time to discover stuff in SSB. Combos are not supposed to just 'appear' like that. This is an illusion that newer players fall for, because toward the end of Melee, we were handed a fully developed Metagame, and Brawl is technically easy, so it didn't take us long to figure out what we could and could not do (and still I have to convince Marth players that he has awesome combos, and secure follow-ups that lead into other combos).

Combos are supposed to be moderately difficult to perform. It should generally require intimate sequences of GOOD spacing, proper fast falling, and no tripping poor opponent DI in some instances. It's not supposed to be super easy, where landing that first hit assures a K.O.. In a game where one Dair is going to result in your opponent dying, you have too much hitstun. Just be careful guys.

 

[The_Dyne]

The main problem I see with this project is some people not being able to obtain the stuff to hack Brawl for quite a while... /pointatself

 

[kupo15]

Just to be certain, you're arguing that Peach's aerials already L-Cancel, and Ganon's don't, so it wouldn't be fair to make L-Cancelling manual?

This was an example but yes. Throughout the roster, 75 moves out of 195 are programmed to be auto l canceled. It varies from 0-5 and its not a balanced mechanic if some can get punished for missing an l cancel when other never have the opportunity to miss. Auto l cancel brings everyone to the same page where a game mechanic no longer plays favorites. Its also a shorter code length btw

 

[The_Dyne]

@whoever in the podcast commented about replays: I think that the replay also records RNG rolls, and can't replay them on Wiis that don't have no tripping. I think it's better to generalize replays as "what the game is told to do by the Wii".

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I agree. I rather regular L-Cancel than S-Cancel. S-Cancel is like 64 and we kno how that game gets down >_>. ******** shield pressure.

That and Shield Breaker combos. Someone needs to test Tech Chase from Snake's or G&W's Down Throws to see if the tech chase is uber. If it is, Snake and G%W can Nair into a grab, down throw, tech chase with another nair, grab, etc.

 

[Starscream]

This was an example but yes. Throughout the roster, 75 moves out of 195 are programmed to be auto l canceled. It varies from 0-5 and its not a balanced mechanic if some can get punished for missing an l cancel when other never have the opportunity to miss. Auto l cancel brings everyone to the same page where a game mechanic no longer plays favorites. Its also a shorter code length btw

Uh auto cancel is completely different than auto L-canceling. It seems like you're confusing the two. Auto cancel is when you finish your aerial before you land therefore having no lag. Auto L cancel is halving the landing lag on aerials. It's not like you can auto cancel a move if you try to fast fall it, they don't work the same at all.

 

[NinjaLink]

Uh auto cancel is completely different than auto L-canceling. It seems like you're confusing the two. Auto cancel is when you finish your aerial before you land therefore having no lag. Auto L cancel is halving the landing lag on aerials. It's not like you can auto cancel a move if you try to fast fall it, they don't work the same at all.

Autocancel is landing on a certain frame of the move to cancel lag, Not entirely meaning the move finished. Peach's Fair Autocancels fairly easy but the aerial isnt over with. Ikes bair autocancels but if u were to do it high in the air u cant move for awhile.

 

[kupo15]

Uh auto cancel is completely different than auto L-canceling. It seems like you're confusing the two. Auto cancel is when you finish your aerial before you land therefore having no lag. Auto L cancel is halving the landing lag on aerials. It's not like you can auto cancel a move if you try to fast fall it, they don't work the same at all.

Uh. no. I know what auto canceling is and I know what auto l canceling is...make no mistake I know what Im talking about >_<

Here is the link (btw, the title is wrong..it should be auto l canceled aerials) I find that these moves actually behave like l canceling since the animation is sped up and I can land at anytime during the move and it will half the lag
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169171

 

[Anth0ny]

Awesome discussion. I agree that having Brawl+ side tournaments at Melee tournaments would be the best way to go. I'm also especially interested in the whole balancing project.

As for homebrew, SamuraiPanda, one of the main reasons why I got it on my Wii was because of Tatsunoko vs. Capcom. I have it now, and it is AMAZING. I highly reccomend it to anyone who owns a Wii, because we all know that with all the crappy casual games being released nowadays, it's hard to find an enjoyable game. TvC is one of them.

 

[Starscream]

Uh. no. I know what auto canceling is and I know what auto l canceling is...make no mistake I know what Im talking about >_<

Here is the link (btw, the title is wrong..it should be auto l canceled aerials) I find that these moves actually behave like l canceling since the animation is sped up and I can land at anytime during the move and it will half the lag
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169171

ORLY? I just figured those moves had really short landing lag. Guess I learned something today.

 

[kupo15]

Are the ship of fools still planning on using s cancel for their brawl+ tourney? I hope they decided to switch to auto l cancel to keep things familiar so everyone has a more equal shot at playing brawl+ well instead of those who practiced s canceling...

 

[Ballin brian]

where are the hacks wtfffff

 

[Ballin brian]

up the butt charzard lol dlksfjklsdafjlkdsgkldfj

 

[Hype]

The next episode should discuss Dedede's infinite.

 

[noobpota2]

The next episode should discuss Dedede's infinite.

thats abit small for a 2 hour disscusion -_-

 

[Deleted member]

do it on the new tier list?

 

[5ive]

Rule 34.
Cookie to anyone who got the reference.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Rule 34.
Cookie to anyone who got the reference.

You are a sick, sick man.

SmashCast ftmfw.

So I have no Idea how to use it lolololol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

They need to correct themselves since gecko allows the usage of your SD card and Ocarina is no longer being updated.

Gecko OS allows a few codes to be used because of the rebooter.

Warranties are possibly being voided it depends how you interpret the law.

 

[kupo15]

They need to correct themselves since gecko allows the usage of your SD card and Ocarina is no longer being updated.

Gecko OS allows a few codes to be used because of the rebooter.

Warranties are possibly being voided it depends how you interpret the law.

As long as you remove homebrew and all hacking related things from your system before fixing your wii, you should be fine..

 

[ShadowLink84]

As long as you remove homebrew and all hacking related things from your system before fixing your wii, you should be fine..

I speak purely by legal means.Not on how you hide it.
<_<
Reinstalling all that stuff is a pain too...

 

[TheNix]

As long as you remove homebrew and all hacking related things from your system before fixing your wii, you should be fine..

A friend of mine's Wii busted while the Homebrew Channel was still on there and he had no problems getting it fixed/replaced.

 

[kupo15]

A friend of mine's Wii busted while the Homebrew Channel was still on there and he had no problems getting it fixed/replaced.

Really? So it was fixed for free with the homebrew channel on it? Interesting...I guess I didn't have to take mine off but ehh, its easily put back on. Why does brawl have to break your wii

 

[JawaJedi]

Are you still looking for a name? How about Back Room Brawls.

 

[Evenkor]

After this gets a name, it's going to get on iTunes, right?

 

[Commander_Beef]

Whoa that is weird.

 

[danielkon369]

interesting!

 

[Revven]

Yeah, definitely discuss the tier list next (such as why does such and such character go here, how it was decided, and countering general arguments etc.)

 

[AfroQT]

I just now watched the podcasts and i thought it was hilarious when Overswarm said MK is leading Florida and not me.

I havent lost to a metaknight in tourney since FAST, which was like...7 months ago.

 

[Youko]

As an update to all, we're going to try to nail down details for the next episode today. We'll post when we have the goods ready for you all (date, time, topic, etc).

 

[bribri123123]

Thanks for the news...

 

[Youko]

 

[Anth0ny]

Good discussion topic. I personally think that Ice Climbers' infinite is fine*, but DDD's standing infinite should go, as it already has in many tournaments.

*And when I say fine, I mean I HATE IT. Lain and Ambrose owned me with it LOL. Luckily, I've gotten better at avoiding it, and now that I have practice, I pretty much barely get caught in it.